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== Blitzkrieg Tactics ==

The September campaign was not the first use of blitzkrieg tactics... it was the Spanish Civil War.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0861253.html

I'd make the edits myself, but I'm not sure how to post the relevant reference.


== Myths ==
== Myths ==

Revision as of 13:31, 19 July 2005

Template:WikiProject Polish Army Template:Featured article is only for Wikipedia:Featured articles.

Blitzkrieg Tactics

The September campaign was not the first use of blitzkrieg tactics... it was the Spanish Civil War.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0861253.html

I'd make the edits myself, but I'm not sure how to post the relevant reference.

Myths

Do we know that Polish cavalry never charged tanks? Heinz Guderian clearly states they did, in his memoirs..

It is a myth. It's based on Polish lancers attacking German infantry, then were counter attacked by armor and cut down as they tried to retreat.
Yup, it is a myth. Guderian is referencing to the chaos resulting after Polish unit of Pomorska brigade faced German infantry. They charged, wiped out infantry and found itself udner fire of armoured cars. This resulted in panic in German army (And Guderian is refrencing to this - he does not wrote it happened, he wrote IIRC that his soldiers were affraid of it) and total loss of morale in Polish units (losses were maybe as much as 20% in just few minutes).Szopen 17:06, 16 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
And it's a quite funny history of misunderstanding and using false sources for refreshing ones' memory: Guderian was writing his memoirs quite a long time after 1939 and apparently used an article by two Italian war correspondents who were brought there the following day. After seing corpses of Polish soldiers and their horses and a German armoured transporters column, they wrote about those romantic Poles. Guderian used this as a sorce, then Andrzej Wajda created his 'Lotna' and thus the myth was created... Long afterwards the communist propaganda was more than happy to use this symbol as a clear proof that the 'Noblety did not prepare Poland for war and paid with soldiers' blood while escaping to Romania'... [1], [2]. Halibutt 04:57, 17 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
A search on Google for "last cavalry charge" returns an interesting page here [3] as the first hit, with information about a cavalry charge in the Ukraine in 1943 involving Cossacks. Patrick Wright's frustrating, fascinating, irritating 2003 book "Tank" [4] repeats the 'outdated Polish lancers vs tanks' myth verbatim, and the author even claims to have seen a photograph of a lancer charging a tank (a photograph he furthermore claims to be 'famous'). It seemed very dubious as I read it on a train, and I suspect he was making it up. As I understand it, horses were commonly used to transport soldiers to and from battles, but not for actual cavalry charges, even up to the 1980s in places such as Afghanistan; every so often on one of the 'alt.history.military' newsgroups somebody wonders aloud as to when the last cavalry charge took place.-Ashley Pomeroy 21:26, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Goal

Eventually I'd like this page to be a Featured Article. We managed to do it to Warsaw Uprising, we can do it here. But that day is yet far to come. For now I am slowly gathering information which eventually should be spread over several subsections, each having its own expanding article. The tables and numbers that take most of the article at present would also be moved from the main body. Feel free to help :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:05, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

At your service, sire! As with the Warsaw Uprising series, we could split it onto several sub-pages:
  • Main article (short description, navbox and battlebox)
  • Opposing forces (OOBs of Poland, Germany, USSR and Slovakia)
  • Preparations (political situation before the outbreak of war, alliances, diplomatic relations, German provocations and propaganda)
  • Hostilities (description of the main phases of the Defense War: Battle for the Frontiers, Withdrawal, Counterattack, Isolated strongholds and Romanian Bridgehead, Soviet invasion, Aftermath)
  • Day-by-day description (the last to be written)
  • Links, book references, quotations, stuff
What do you say? I could start working on any of the abovementioned right away, although we're not in a hurry this time. It's more than a year until the next September 1 anniversary... As always, the most difficult part would be gathering PD pictures, although there should be lots of free use ones and now I have a digital camera to work with... [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:23, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)
As always, you have great ideas. Agreed with all except one thing: as for day-to-day I'd like to point out we didn't do it in the Warsaw Uprisng in the end (not for every day, at least). I think the chronological description in the Hostiltities section will be enough for a good article. Of course I wouldn't dream of discouraging anybody who would attempt such a project, but personally I think it would be more useful to put that time into another article - there are a lot of those on Wiki that need our help. I mean, a good day-to-day good description would be a very very very time consuming project, and perhaps even not suited as much for Wiki as for an off-site theme page. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:31, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I thought more of a shorter day-to-day desc., something similar to the Spanish Civil War. Preparing an extremely detailed calender would make little sense since it would be interesting for nerds only and we have better sources anyway.. Anyway, the project would be the last to start (if ever). [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 04:41, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

Category

From the History of the article: History: 15:49, 20 Sep 2004 Philip Baird Shearer m (Category:World War II European eastern front).

History 03:00, 21 Sep 2004 Halibutt m (rv category change. The Eastern Front article states clearly that the Eastern front was where the Russians fought from 1941 onwards. Polish Defence War ended 2 years before.)

If one thinks about the situation in 1939 there were two fronts. The Western Front between France, Belgium (Holland?) and Germany and the Eastern Front between Germany and Poland. If the Allies had been victorious in 1939 then it would be described as the Western and Eastern front (the soviets would not have been in WWII). Just because the Allies lost does not mean that this article should not be in the category of the Eastern Front in the European Theatre of WWII.

It you argue that the Polish September Campaign is not on the Eastern Front then the battle of France in 1940 is not a battle on the Western Front. But it is just as much a battle on the Western front as those of 1944Philip Baird Shearer 12:25, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If the Allies were victorious then the Polish Defence War would be probably referred to as the Eastern Front. However, the Allies were not victorious and I've never seen a mention of the war in Poland as taking place on the eastern front. Usually it is called the Polish Front just, to distinguish it from the Eastern Front and Eastern Front (WWII). Unless those articles mention anything about the operations prior to 1941 I'd suggest we sticked to WWII operations. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 13:02, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Halibutt. When I hear 'eastern front', I think of 41 and Barbarossa. Of course, this is just my subiective opionion, and if sb can prove (provide off-Wiki sources) that the September Campaign is referred to as the first operation of the Eastern Front, I will be convinced. Note that the same argument goes for underground in Poland. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:21, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As per Philip Baird Shearer proposal this discussion is continued at Category talk:World War II campaigns and theatres [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 15:50, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

FA

Another article that can be FA soon, with a little effort, I believe. Major battles need to be merged with the Campaign Details. We need to expand on stuff like general tactics and strategy used by Poland and Germany, make sure all important things are in place, and that's all. Could use more references as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:46, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

119 changes

I brought back some material deleted by User:119, who claimed 'severe POV', without citing any sources of references of his own. Changes: --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:09, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

  • brought back newer PZL P.24 were used soley for export and PZL P.50s, which were supposed to have better parameters then German modern fighters, were still on the drawing board --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:09, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
    • This is of low importance when the fighters did not participate in the Polish campaign, and certainly biased when one is not also attempting to explain that Germany and Russia's air forces had this or that shortcoming; the Equipment section was often a description of Polish equipment that the author feels would have been very useful if they had ever been used. This was/is not appropriate to a historical account unless presented in a very different manner. 119 13:43, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
      • Eventually this would likely be moved to a separate article like Polish army equipment in the September Campaign, but atm the article is still not long enough to merit creating subarticles. I am not knowledgable about German or Russian airforce shortcomings and I am not writing about them, but I know about PAF shortcomings and see no reason why this should not be mentioned in the article. The planes/planes existed. They would be useful. The reasons they were not are not my imagination, they are facts. Encyclopedia is based on facts. I see no problem with that. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:55, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
        • Please keep in mind that as this is an article on the Polish September Campaign, the fact that the fighters did not participate in the Polish campaign makes them relevant only if there was some decision made during the course of the campaign with the belief that these aircraft would participate. There is relevant and irrelevant information, and as it is, this is irreelvant to the Polish campaign. This argument applies to the below sections as well, where you outrageously accuse me of vandalism and POV pushing--this, for doing the NPOV work on your text you obstensibly welcome, while challenging my changes to your text without a single hard assertion of your own other than what amounts to 'it's a start on something, anything'. 23:47, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
          • It is relevant to explain to a reader that the Polish armanent program was behind German and that the army was supposed to receive modern equipment after 42. The fact that it didn't have it in 39 and Poland army was outgunned contributed to the outcame of the campaign, thus explaining why it was so looks relevant to me. As the below sections about Los bomber and anti-tank carabine concern equipment that was used, it looks to me like you haven't read the article carefully. I don't accuse you of POV pushing, sine I from your deletions I can hardly see any POV of yours. However deletion of useful info *is* vandalism. Please contribute new facts or give sources proving my facts wrong and then remove them. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:57, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • reworded the following sentence to make it more NPOV: The exact numbers are not fully verified, but it appears that at least one German plane shot down for each P.11 lost (a figure of 141 German planes is often given as compared with 118 planes lost). into The exact numbers are not verified, but some sources claim that at least one German plane shot down for each P.11 lost (a figure of 141 German planes is often given as compared with 118 planes lost). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:09, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • brought back the entire paragraph: One of the most interesting units in the Polish aresnal was the twin-engine medium bomber, the PZL.37 Łoś. Before the war it was one of the world's most modern and outstanding bombers. Smaller than most contemporary medium bombers, it was still able to carry a heavier bomb load than comparable aircraft, including the famous Vickers Wellington. It was relatively fast and easy to handle. Thanks to a landing gear with double wheels, it could operate from rough fields or meadows. The only drawback was its relatively weak defensive armament, consisting of 3 machine guns. Its range was also limited, but the Łoś was not meant to be a long range bomber. During the September Campaign, they were too few in number to change the outcome, and often lacking fighter cover, sustained heavy losses. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:09, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
    • This is of no importance to the article as currently written. It's a mere technical description and offers no information on the use of this aircraft or its importance to the Polish campaign. It is trivia. 13:43, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
      • So what's wrong with a technical desription? When the article is too long, it will be moved off. Deleting it is vandalism. And it does offer information on usage on tactics of the plane (it could operate from rough fields or meadows, they were too few in number to change the outcome, and often lacking fighter cover, sustained heavy losses.) Granted this is too short - but by no means too long. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:55, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • brought back another entire paragraph: Finally, another interesting equipment used with success by Polish forces was the 7.92 mm Rifle Anti-Tank Mascerzek anti-tank rifle. It was quite successful against German light tanks, although - again - it was not produced in sufficent numbers by 1939. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:09, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
    • I think there's bias in the entire article in that this was to be the Polish Defense War of 1939 on WP despite that not being the dominant English name, and this being edited prominently by people part of the Polish history WikiProject. This bit on AT rifles is trying to reduce the constant use of If these had been used, they would have... and If these had been available in sufficient quantity, they would have. 119 13:43, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
      • I had slightly reworded the AT rifles part. The conclusions you draw are your own, the paragraph merely states that such an interesting piece of equipment existed, had such and such capabilities but was not wildly used. I'd love to see many other ppl join the work on this article and add more NPOV when necessary. Add facts, don't remove them, and change the wording if you think it is POVed. Expanding the article is always good. Deleting parts of it is almost always bordering on vandalism. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:55, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Polish strenght and ORP Gryf

AFAIK in 1939 Poland has 39 infantry divisions, 11 cavalry brigades, 2 motorised brigades, 3 mountain brigades and some National Defence and KOP units. ORP Gryf, largest Polish war ship, should be on the navy list.--Mrc 19:19, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Have you seen the Polish army order of battle in 1939? I'll let Halibutt answer the division number question, as he created that article. Good point about Gryf, he is often forgotten. But are you sure he was the biggest? Gryf links (for article 'to do': [5], [6], [7] --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:06, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, as a matter of fact we had 41 infantry divisions (you forgot about 50th, 55th and 60th) and one cavalry division (well.. improvised and combined so it can be ommitted in the battlebox). As to the cavalry Bdes - that's right. The same goes for motorised. The problem I have with mountain troops is that if we count 39 Infantry Divisions, then we must mention the two mountain divisions separately (2 divisions -21st and 22nd - and 3 additional Bdes).

Of course ORP Gryf was the biggest birdie we had until 1943 when ORP Dragon and later ORP Conrad arrived (well, except for ORP Bałtyk which was a pre-WWI battleship, but was completely obsolete and used as a hulk). --Halibutt 08:24, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)

You're right, 41 divisions, including 55th i 60th divisions. By the way, maybe somebody knows if that two divisions were organised after September 1, 1939 or earlier? --Mrc 19:47, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The 60th Kobryń infantry division was half-improvised from the troops present in the area of the Battle of Kobryń - hence the code-name. It had almost all men, but was severely lacking heavy equipment, especially the artillery (it had only three batteries out of usual regiment). Other than that it was supplied better than most other reserve units since before September 12 it was supplied with all the arms and equipment from the military depots of Dęblin by... drivers of Warsaw buses that were evacuated and then started acting as trains - with the difference that they were harder to catch by the Luftwaffe. It is probably not known to the wider audience that those drivers used on purpose what could be called a chaos organisation: instead of forming a column, they set off with supplies at the same moment, but each followed a different path. Anyway, the division was really successful, first defending the hopeless positions against the 19th Motorised Division of the Guderian's Panzer Corps and then fighting its way down to the Battle of Kock.
On the contrary the 55th was a standard reserve division attached to the Kraków Army from the first days of the war, with three infantry regiments, 1.5 regiments of artillery and all the other stuff. It was in combat from the first hours of the war in Silesia, and then shared the fate of its army, with the difference that it evaded high losses and remained in decent shape until the First Battle of Tomaszów. If we only had more such commanders as Kalabiński...
Hope I was of some help. Halibutt 21:29, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. --Mrc 21:40, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I wrote an article about ORP Gryf. --Mrc 13:52, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Great :) Keep up the good job :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:41, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Anon changes:

  • casualties1=65 000 killed 133 700 wounded 680 000 POWs to casualties1=65 000 killed 133 700 wounded 694 000 POWs
  • casualties2=16 343 killed 27 280 wounded 320 MIA to casualties2=10 343 killed 30 280 wounded 320 MIA

I hesitate to change it since it is minor and I have no sources for one way or another. Halibutt? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:06, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)


http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html

German KIA, Polish Campaign: 16,343
German MIA, Polish Campaign: 320
German WIA, Polish Campaign: 27,280

http://worldatwar.net/wars/ww2/poland39/ 48 casualties of which 16k were killed...

http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/EuropeatWar/blitzkrieg_poland.htm

German Polish
Killed 8082 to 10572 66300 737
Wounded 27,278 to 30322 133700 1859
Missing 3404 to 5029

Which brings again a question: why there is no number for missing in Polish losses? And why the losses were so much higher, if in several battles i've read the differences in losses were not that stunning?! Szopen 09:58, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I added a note on casualties brackets. One thing I spotted is the sources citing low end German casualties and high end MIA - I guess they are some early German statistics and that eventually those MIA were transformed into KIA. More questions: the figure of 880 Polish tanks in the warbox is from where? Sources in text give about 130 7TPs and 300 tankettes. The only source I see gives 107 German planes shot down, what source gives ~140? I have no idea about lack of Polish MIA. Perhaps some Polish printed sources would be useful here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:07, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Loses from PWN: (according to Biuro Odszkodowań Wojennych): Polish ~620,000 total: 66,000 killed, 134,000 wounded, 420,000 POWs. ~15,000 killed in fights agaisnt Red Army or executed immedietly after surrender, ~250,000 POWss. German ~45,000 KIA and WIA, ~1,000 tanks and armored tanks (30% of all used in the campaign) and 700 planes (32% used in the campaign). Red Army (official :>): 2,500 KIA and WIA. Losses from Britannica: Germans: ~45,000. Poland: 700,000 POWs, KIA/WIA/MIA unknown (yeah, that's Britannica :>), evacuated: 80,000 Polish soldiers. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:14, 14 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"September Campaign"

Someone changed the sentence, "Germans and Poles usually refer to it as 'the September Campaign,'" to: "From the German perspective the war is called the [!] 'the September Campaign.'" Why this change? In Polish, it is commonly called "Kampania wrześniowa" ("the September Campaign"). logologist 14:54, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not really. That term is quite popular, mostly due to post-war commie propaganda which used it over and over again. After all both the German and the Soviet propaganda tried to downgrade the Polish WWII effort, hence the name of the campaign which was coined to suggest that it took less time to defeat Poland (Septemberfeldzug in German).
However, the term kampania wrześniowa is barely used by any Polish historian, be it rightist or leftist. Also the Generals themselves who wrote diaries and memoirs refer to it by other names (most notably Defensive War and Polish campaign, but Campaign of 1939, Polish-German War of 1939 and War of 1939 are also used). It should also be noted that after WWII even German historians started to use the name Polenfeldzug - Polish Campaign.
So, all in all, the term "kampania wrześniowa" might be popular, but is far from accurate and barely used by historians and other serious publications. Halibutt 17:20, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

I have, over decades, spoken with many Polish veterans of September 1939, and the only term I recall them using is "kampania wrześniowa," with no derogatory or tendentious connotation. For the Poles — at least, for those Poles — September 1939 was just one campaign in their war. logologist 19:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm probably much younger than you are, but I had the opportunity to speak to lots of WWII vets (most notably those who fought in the Battle of Monte Cassino), and most of them used the terms Wrzesień (September), Klęska (Defeat, as in "after the defeat I found myself in Russia") or wojna obronna (Defensive war). But this might be due to the fact that most of them fought on the other front of the war in 1939, that is both against Germany and Russia. Take note that the very term "campaign" would suggest that there was only one front, while in reality there were two. Halibutt 21:14, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

I've spoken, and do speak, with Polish veterans who fought in September 1939, who fought at Cassino, who fought in both those venues and elsewhere, and they all speak of "the September Campaign" or — by way of shorthand — indeed of "September." But my veterans have never spoken of a "Defensive War"; I've seen it in a book title but never heard it, and to my ear it sounds like "political correctness." But I guess that's what comes of spending nearly all one's life away from the living springs of a nation's p.c. logologist 01:12, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't treat Wrzesień as a shorter form of Kampania wrześniowa. IMO the earlier is used on purpose and not as a shorthand. As such it fits perfectly well into the Polish 20th century months which serve as proper names for various historical periods (i.e. Październik - 1956; Grudzień - 1970; and so on).
As I said, apart from my grandma and grandpa, who were using either the term wojna wrześniowa ("September war") or simply the wojna z niemcami ("war with the Germans"), I've spoken only to a fistful of vets who attended yearly feasts in my school (named after the Heroes of Monte Cassino). Perhaps those you've spoken with used different terms. Which doesn't change the fact that the term Kampania wrześniowa is far from being the most popular among historians at least since the times of Moczulski's "Wojna Polska", one of the first monographies of the Polish-German_Soviet conflict of 1939. I don't know if it's a matter of p.c. or anything else, but most books I have on the topic use lots of names for that conflict and kampania wrześniowa seems to be one of the least popular. Halibutt 03:58, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Modification

I changed "the most powerful resistance movement in occupied Europe" or something along those lines to "a resistance movement." We're not supposed to be making judgments here, just providing information, and anyway the resistance movement in occupied Yugoslavia was arguably more effective (largely because of mountainous terrain).
I changed it to 'powerful'. You are right it is hard to argue which was *the* most powerful. I'd say Poles were better organised, but Yugoslavian partisans did manage to fend liberate more territories by themeslves (although difficult terrain and smaller strategic importance did play an important role in this). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:08, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Numbers, numbers

Can anybody give references for at least *some* of thsoe numbers? There are rather large discrepancies, of several hundred percent in case of artillery pieces, for example. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:35, 8 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I decided to use numbers from Polish PWN encyclopedia. They seem more detailed then Britannica, and at least we can easily point out to the main source for numbers of our article. Of course, if you know a better source, do tell. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
old History of Poland (1939-1945), unsourced
 old Polish September Campaign, unsourced

infobox

 old Polish September Campaign body

details, unsourced

German numbers: 1,6 million troops /w 1

cavalry division,

1,8 million troops
German vehicles: 250,000 trucks and other such

motor vehicles, 4000 tanks,

2,800 tanks

German artillery: 67,000 artillery pieces,
 10,000 guns,


Luftwaffe: 3,000 aircraft.
Polish numbers: 800,000 troops /w 11

cavalry brigades and 2 motorized brigades

 1 million soldiers,
600,000 Polish troops were

mobilised by Sep 1.

Polish artillery: 30,000 artillery pieces,
4,300 guns,

Polish vehicles: 120 7-TP tanks
 880 tanks,
132 7-TP and 300 tankettes.
Polish airforce400 aircraft: 160 of them were

PZL P.11c fighter aircraft, 31 PZL P.7a and 20 P.11a fighters, 120 PZL P.23 reconnaissance-bombers, and 45 PZL P.37 medium bombers.

435 aircraft.
169. fighters

Some sources:

Polish PWN encyclopedia: Poland: 1 million for mobilised soldiers (calling it 70% of total planned). 4,3 guns and mortars, ok. 880 tanks and armoured cars (the armoured cars would explain the too large 880 tank number) and 400 military plains. Germans: 1,6 mln soldiers, ~10 tys. guns and mortars, over 2,7 tanks and 1,3 tys. military planes.

Britannica gives few numbers: 2,000 German planes (1,000 fighters and 1,050 bombers) and 1,500,000 soldiers. For Poland: 1,000,000 soldiers, 500 planes (300 fighters, 200 bombers)

Finally, with help of Usenent, one more publication (Polish): Marian Zgórniak, "Europa w przededniu wojny. Sytuacja militarna w latach 1938 – 1939" and this page, it has rather credible printed references on the bottom: Germany: 1,5 mln, but those only? (usenet is sometimes confusing) frontline troops (and or from which? 750,000 on western front), as total Werhmacht is 3,700,000 (-this includes all German borders and second line troops, logistics, etc.), Luftwaffe 700,000 (same all troops) and Kriegsmarine 122,000 (all troops). 187,000 of vehicles (with ~110,000 in reserve) including: 2,600 tanks (~100 in reserve), 85,000 trucks, 40,000 passanger cars, 62,000 motorcycles, 74,000 horse pulled vehicles and 363,000 horses. 7,200 artillery guns (~4,000 in reserve), 7,500 antitank (~2,500 in reserve) and 9000 mortars and granade launchers. Planes: 2,800 and (or from which??) 1,300 on western front. Poland: Between 750,000-1,000,000 mobilised (out of 1,500,000 target). 3,400 artillery guns, 450 antiair guns, 1,200 antitank guns, 1,200 mortars, 3,850 granade launchers. Vehicles: 211 light tanks (132 7TP, rest would be 38 Vickersy E and ~50 Renault R35, bought but never made it to Poland by 1st September), 574 tankettes (300 TK-3, 274 TKS), 102 old R17 IWW tanks. Fighters: 397 frontlines, 373 second line ('anything that can fly'), 770 total. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:58, 14 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Angriffshöhe 4000 by Cajus Bekker lists the following polish planes for September 1, 1939:
P 11c fighter: 129 in frontal units and 43 on schools/reserve, P 7 fighter: 30 in frontal units and 75 school/reserve, P23 light bomber: 118/85, P37 bomber: 36/30, R X111 recon:49/95, RWD 14 Czapla: 35/20. As source is stated Sikorski Institute, London and Lotnictwo Polskie (1939 Roku ?? - may belong to the title) by Adam Kurowski --Denniss 22:30, 2005 May 16 (UTC)
Tnx. Could you give references for the info in proper format, so I can add it to the article (or feel free to do it yourself :) ). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As to the Polish Air Forces, the Polish Chief of Staff, Wacław Stachiewicz quotes the following numbers in his memoirs (. ISBN 83-86678-71-2. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |Author= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Publisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Title= ignored (|title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Year= ignored (|year= suggested) (help)):

Type Model Total Incl. in combat formations Remarks
  Number of planes on September 1st, 1939
Fighters PZL P.11 175 140
PZL P.7 105 30
Line planes
light bombers/tactical bombers 		PZL.23A 35 0
PZL.23B 170 120
Bomber planes
medium bombers 		PZL.37 Łoś 61 36
PZL.30 Żubr 15 0
Associate planes
Surveillance aircraft and Army cooperation plane 		Lublin R-XIII 150 55
RWD-14 Czapla 60 40
Total 771 421


The planes outside of combat units category includes machines in training units, in repair yards and in reserve. Most of them were used in combat. Halibutt 16:59, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Important battles

The article is fairly long and all of this is now mentioned in main, so I moved this section here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:21, 15 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the more notable engagements of the September Campaign are:

  • Battle of the border (September 1 - September 7) - series of battles, which caused Polish forces to abandon the defence of the borders
  • Battle of Bzura (September 9 - September 18) - failed Polish counter-attack, the biggest battle of the campaign
  • Battle of Warsaw (September 8 - September 28) - siege of the Polish capital
  • Battle of Tomaszów Lubelski (September 17 - September 20) - second biggest battle of the campaign
  • Battle of Kock (October 2 - October 5) - the last battle of the campaign, marking the capitualtion of the last regular unit of the Polish army


This article is almost twice the recommended size

This excellent article is 59k that is almost twice the recomended size. See Wikipedia:Article_size. I am not seriously demanding that the article is shortened but I request that people who think that this article can exceed the size limit allow this for other articles too, for e.g. Germany. -- Why do you mention Germany in particular???Please express your support at talk:Germany. Andries 18:32, 20 May 2005 (UTC) [reply]

Deal :) I always said 32kb guideline does more harm then good - it should be a minimal size for FA requirement :) Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I think quite a bit of this article can be relocated. The order of battle and list of equipment used by both sides just adds clutter to the article which is suppossed to be about the campaign itself. I think a few daughter pages would really help focus this article. Oberiko 21:26, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree and have already started Opposing forces in the Polish September Campaign. --mav 03:44, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

More pictures

Any idea where to put them? Halibutt 16:14, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Great job! This article already has lots of pics, but perhaps some older ones can be replaced with yours. Prelude and some other sections could take 2-3 more aditonal pics. Nice.... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:28, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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