Talk:Pedophilia

Medical definition

The lead paragraph seems to imply that there is a scientific definition of paedophilia that references puberty, and that an understanding of paedophila as being more generally an attraction to children is "colloquial" (ie technincally incorrect). However, no supporting evidence is given for this assertion. In fact, the link to the Merck site provided does not support the definition.

I don't have a medical background, but wouldn't paedophilia be considered a psychological condition? Assuming this is the case, then what would be relvant would be a concept of "child", which would be variable (for example, culturally). And wouldn't an attempt to give it a rigid definition be considered scientism? --88.111.32.112 18:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The definition of pedophilia is the sexual attraction of people 16+ years of age to prepubescent kids, if that attraction is acted upon, or if it messes up the life of the adult concerned. A lot of legally defined "child molesters" do not fit this description, and many DSM-defined pedophiles never touch a child, which is confusing enough. But the colloquial use discussed goes beyond that. Many jurisdictions have distinct offenses for molesting children under age 11 or so, and a "statutory rape" offense which deals with teenagers, hence statutory rapists in those places would be neither child molesters or pedophiles. Add in the fact that the age of consent varies by jurisdiction from 0 (several African and Asian countries) to 12 (Mexico, others) to 21 (Madagasgar) to infinite-unless-you're-married (several Islamic countries), and it becomes clear how worthless the colloquial term becomes when applied as a universal. In short, I think the colloquial "definition" is utter rubbish, and doesn't belong in the article. (Do we give the colloquial definition of "retard" on the Down's Syndrome page?)

But you're free to call DSM's definition "scientism" if you like. Poindexter Propellerhead 06:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You make a compelling point in favor of removing the "colloquial" definition. I would support it's removal, though I am also willing to consider some re-wording so that it specifically points to a particular culture where such a colloquial term is generally applied. Sadly, there seems to be a priori assumption among certain Wikipedians that prevalent US beliefs are somehow empirically relevant for the rest of the world. Equilibrist 00:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

According to my dictionary (OED), the definition of "paedophilia" is "sexual attraction felt by adults towards children". It doesn't used the word "pre-pubescent" or the word "youth" and the definition isn't marked "colloq.". Now, I'm not claiming that dictionaries (any more than medical textbooks) are divine. But if the dictionary definition is to be rejected or downgraded for the purposes of Wikipedia, then grounds for this ought to be referenced in the article.

From looking at the article, it is not clear that there exists a singular and (more or less) incontrovertible medical definition of paedophilia. Maybe there idoes. But, for most people, I think, paedophilia is seen as being primarily about a subject-object relationship, and only secondarily about the age or biological condition of the parties (this is why, for example, attraction between children is not normally classed as "paedophilia"). In other words, its a bit woolly, as are the categories "child" and "adult". There doesn't seem to be an obvious (or, more to the point, cited) reason why doctors should take a different view.

However, let's say there is a singular medical definition, which almost no specialist would dispute. What is still not clear is why this defintion should be considered superior to any other. To say "there is a general defintion and a medical defintion" is not the same as to say "there is a medical definition and a colloquial definition".

Incidentally, I do not think the existence of various laws around the world relating to consent and sexual offences make the general definition of "paedophilia" in any sense "worthless", because they are nothing to do with it. It is an error to think that paedophilia is commonly legally definied, in any case, since what is outlawed is usually behaviour. What I am not proposing is that there should be an alternative arbitrary cut-off point (between when someone may be considered the object of paedophilia and when they may not) in the primary definition. I am proposing that there should be no such cut off point, and the terms "adult" and "child" will do just fine, with more specific medical, legal etc definitions, such as there may be, to follow in the article.

The possibility does occur to me that the medical term "paedophilia" as defined currently at the top of the article may be part of a schema of different categories within what is more generally termed "paedophilia". If this is the case, then the definition currently in the article may be correct, but would be very much subordinate to the general defnition (in the same way that the medical term "schizophrenia" would subordinate to the general term "mad" in an article about madness - the complication that here we have two uses of the same word does not change this picture).

Cheers. --Jamesleg 12:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The term 'paedophilia' comes from Greek, meaning love of child. Any medical definition has to take into account that the term 'child' is culturally and historically relativistic. If, as is suggested by one commentator above, the term 'child' is taken to mean any pre-pubescent individual, then we must also accept that the medical and legal definitions of 'paedophiles' will diverge, as an individual may be no longer pre-pubescent at 10 years of age or may be pre-pubescent still at 17. (No doubt the legal age for consensual sexual intercourse is based upon an average age at which most individuals are considered to no longer need legal protection.) Discussion of a medical definition should be kept distinct from discussion of a legal definition. Furthermore, the same commentator makes a very common error in conflating 'paedophilia' with 'child molestation'. I read a study (regrettably, the exact source escapes me at the present time) in which it was suggested that as many as one in four adult males has a pronounced attraction to pre-pubescent individuals. Even if this is exaggerated, it needs only a small step of the imagination to realise that paedophilia is a common phenomenon, and should be contrasted with child abuse, which is a criminal matter rather than a psychological phenomenon.

My three main comments, then, are: 1) discussion of a medical definition should take into consideration that definitional terms (such as 'child' or 'children') can be highly relativistic; 2) discussion of a medical definition should seek to avoid entering legal territory; 3) discussion of a medical definition should avoid conflating the term 'paedophilia' with specific acts (the definition of these acts themselves entering legal territory). This last point is particularly crucial, as there is more than a trace of moral panic in present discussion. To draw a parallel, the term 'homosexual male' is in no way synonymous with the term 'male rapist'. It was only a few generations ago, however, that moral panic about homosexuality resulted in very similar patterns of discussion on that subject. --[User:L.]

A "pedophile" is one who's sexually aroused by feet or the act fo walking, whereas a paedophile is one interested, sexually, in children. - English speaker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.121.149.249 (talk) 06:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Child Vs. pre-pubescent

Any concerns over removing the word child and replacing it with pre-pubescent should be adressed to me. In the states a child is anyone that is below 18 (by the way I think this to be correct so you might accuse me of Yankism but never pedophilia), but in many countries the def of a child is below this age. In think pre-pubescent is a term that is multi-national and more scientifically exact. Jmm6f488 06:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It's already addressed to you as much as to anyone else, please see above.

This isn't an arctile primarly about US law, and so US law should not be relevant to the framing of the definition. "Child" is also not primarly a legal term (ie the wikipedia entry "child" does not start with a legal definition), and is perfectly multi-national term. There does not seem to me to be any need, in forming a primary defintion here, for scientific exactness.--Jamesleg 12:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Preferential Or Exclusive Sexual Attraction

According to this article, pedophilia is a preferential or exclusive sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent youths. What if it's not preferential or exclusive (if an adult is sexually attracted to prepubescent youths as well as adults but more to adults)? Would that person still be classified as a pedophile? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WikiBone (talk • contribs) 02:22, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

I'm not sure about scientifically but yes I would say they are a pedophile. Sort of like a Bi-sexual is still considered gay. Jmm6f488 07:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Pedophilia is a relatively modern term invented by psychologists at the end of the 19th century. At the time they defined it as an almost exclusive, recurring sexual interest in youths that does not extend to any noticeable signs of pubertal development (which would exclude those who fit WikiBone's description). Until then, for all practical purposes, there was really no such thing as "pedophilia". It is hardly surprising that the term causes confusion. Judging by the available historical records, it seems that most adults had a relatively arbitrary attraction span, often descending slightly below the pre-pubertal age, and typically ranging from ca. 8 years to adulthood (adolescent above the ages 8-10 were usually refferred to as "young men/women" instead of "children", a term that was reserved for toddlers). So generally, I would say no. A pedophile, as understood by the psychological criteria, is someone who is "fixated" on children, ie. that most, if not all, of their sexual attention is directed exclusively toward pre-pubescents. The other group is defined as expressing a so-called "situational pedophilia", which is characterized by the ability (as opposed to preference) to respond to children. Just as we would not normally define prison male-male contact (heterosexual men engaging in sodomy due to sexual frustration) as "homosexuals", most situational pedophiles would not normally be described as pedophiles in strictly clnical terms (otherwise, we would have to define at least 30% of all adult populaton as pedophiles!). Equilibrist 12:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about, Jmm6f488. Bisexuals are considered bisexual and homosexuals are considered homosexuals, that's why they are called that. And EVERYBODY has at least some level of attraction towards everyone else. For example, it wouldn't be right for someone who is 100 times more attracted to adults than they are to children (in other words, 1% attracted to children and 99% to adults) to be called a pedophile. Just like you wouldn't call someone who is 100 times more attracted to the opposite sex than they are to the same sex, a homosexual. That's why we say "preferencial or exclusive." Ospinad 19:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuality and Pedophilia

An editor reverted without a proper explanation this section added by me. He claimed that the theory that homosexuality is linked to pedophilia is WP:Fringe. "One important bellwether for determining the notability and level of acceptance of fringe ideas related to science, history or other academic pursuits is the presence or absence of peer reviewed research on the subject."

However, "Archives of Sexual Behavior" is a peer-reviewed journal and the authors are respected academics.

Some scientific studies indicate that there is a link between homosexuality and pedophilia. According to Blanchard et. al. "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles." The high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles indicates that that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are not different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults.

The abstract: Whether homosexual pedophiles have more older brothers (a higher fraternal birth order) than do heterosexual pedophiles was investigated. Subjects were 260 sex offenders (against children age 14 or younger) and 260 matched volunteer controls. The subject's relative attraction to male and female children was assessed by phallometric testing in one analysis, and by his offense history in another. Both methods showed that fraternal birth order correlates with homosexuality in pedophiles, just as it does in men attracted to physically mature partners. Results suggest that fraternal birth order (or the underlying variable it represents) may prove the first identified universal factor in homosexual development. Results also argue against a previous explanation of the high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles (25% in this study), namely, that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults. An alternative explanation in terms of canalization of development is suggested. http://www.springerlink.com/content/hh300395g834h386/ MoritzB 20:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That's more than enough for wikipedia standards. Happy Camper II 20:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Not without consensus it isnt, we dont allow POV pushing here merely because it can be sourced, and this is anti-gay POV pushing. Edit warring this against a number of editors isnt going to bring its inclusion a reality, ie edit warring doesnt work, SqueakBox 21:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuality has nothing to do with pedophilia. Again POV pushing rampage. - Jeeny ^Talk 21:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There is an undeniable link between peodophilia and homosexuality, and I think it should be mentioned, so long as it makes clear that it does not mean that homosexuals are pedophiles. This is not POV pushing. Stop tiptoeing around gay people! We don;t like it. --Floydiac 17:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

However, according to Bogaert there is a relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia and that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are not different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults.

Er, well, I'm kind of dubious for the following reason: 2-4% to 25-40% is not 620 times, but rather TEN times. Moreover, homosexual behavior =! homosexual; the percentage of men who have engaged in homosexual behavior is much greater than 4%, up to 10%. Even more so, you have to consider the very large problem of sampling bias; a lot of people who admit to being attracted towards children are gay males because of organizations like NAMBLA, as well as because a lot of these people most likely prey on boys because they don't have access to male adults. Even more interesting would be to ask what gender of adult they were more attracted to (if any).

The link may well exist, or it may simply be a result of society's marginalization of homosexuals as well as sampling bias. However, if it is a solid, peer-reviewed article published in a reputable magazine, I see no reason why it shouldn't be included. Titanium Dragon 06:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2–4% of men attracted to adults prefer men (ACSF Investigators, 1992; Billy et al., 1993; Fay et al., 1989; Johnson et al., 1992); in contrast, around 25–40% of men attracted to children prefer boys (Blanchard et al., 1999; Gebhard et al., 1965; Mohr et al., 1964). Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6–20 times higher among pedophiles."MoritzB 07:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This is not POV-pushing. Advocates of pedophilia are obviously trying to censor information.MoritzB 22:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Lol, you clearly havent looked at my contribs but I can assure you I have a reputation of being one of the most militantly anti pedophilia editors on the project as many would confirm. Your comment is both ridiculous and a personal attack, albeit a bizarre one. Indeed when you have a record like mine of fighting pro-pedophilia activism on the site you can start to criticise, otherwise desist from juvenile personal attacks, SqueakBox 23:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

However, besides the already known hypothesis that gender preference might be less resolved in pedophiliacs than non-pedophiliacs, I don't see that the results quoted in the article suggest any causal relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia, or vice-versa for that matter. Also, if someone can explain how comparing an incidence of 2-4% with an incidence of 25-40% gives a rate that is 620 times higher; straight math gives me a 10-fold higher rate, no 620-fold.--Ramdrake 23:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

First off, just because something has been published or been advocated by academics does not protect it from falling under the purview of WP:FRINGE. Nazi eugenics got plenty of academic support in their day, and we certainly don't give white supremacists equal weight with the scientific consensus on racial issues. Second, by your quote there, they are obviously flawed studies. They are both begging the question and confusing correlation with causation. Hardly good science. Frankly, creating a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia is a pet project of the conservative christian lobby one would find on Conservapedia. One peer journal article out of multitudes that oppose the idea is not the mainstream. According to the contemporary scientific consensus is a patently fringe concept. Not to mention being completely bigoted. But most importantly, the reason your addition is unacceptable is that it takes statistics from a reliable source and then draws its own conclusions. That's original research. VanTucky ^(talk) 23:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The best scientific studies available indicate that there is a relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia. Your analogy to Nazi eugenics is flawed because these studies were not done in the 1930s.

How does the decade in which research took place in and of itself invalidate an analogy? It does not. VanTucky is correct in pointing out the correlation/causality conflict is one of the most important reasons why this study isn't of great interest. Additionally, there is some ambiguous language. "Preferring" boys over girls does not label the men as homosexual or bisexual, and until that is cleared up it would seem that even a correlation can not be drawn. Also undefined is the percentage of homosexuals themselves which are attracted to children in the first place. And going even further, it is the case that often-times, an adult man may be attracted to adult females exclusively in terms of that age group, but paradoxically be attracted exclusively to males of a younger age group. Also missing is the percentage of all men who are attracted to children. I think the absence of an address of this information by itself makes those numbers quite confusing, but perhaps I am just not assuming all the right things. In any case, I would argue that given the diverse possible causes of homosexuality and the fact that there are simply so many fewer homosexuals than heterosexuals, the issues of pedophilia and homosexuality should be considered separate.

Kst447 (talk) 08:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

“approximately one-third of [child sex offenders] had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls.”

“Interestingly, this ratio differs substantially from the ratio of gynephiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature females) to androphiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature males), which is at least 20 to 1." Freund, K., Watson, R. & Rienzo, D. (1989). Heterosexuality, homosexuality, and erotic age preference. The Journal of Sex Research, 26, p. 107

According to the literature, findings of a two-to-one ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles have been documented." John M. W. Bradford, et al., “The Heterogeneity/Homogeneity of Pedophilia,” Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa 13 (1988): 225. Elsewhere the study notes: “Researchers have variously estimated the incidence of homosexual pedophilia between 19 percent and 33 percent of reported molestations,” p. 218.

A study of male child sex offenders in Child Abuse and Neglect found that fourteen percent targeted only males, and a further 28 percent chose males as well as females as victims, thus indicating that 42 percent of male pedophiles engaged in homosexual molestation. Michele Elliott, “Child Sexual Abuse Prevention: What Offenders Tell Us,” Child Abuse and Neglect 19 (1995): 581. MoritzB 23:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There is also the issue about handedness :

Lalumiere, M. L., R. Blanchard, et al. (2000). Sexual orientation and handedness in men and women: a meta­analysis. Psychol Bull 126(4): 575­92. Lalumiere 2000

Cantor, J, M. & P. E. Klassen, R. Dickey, B. K. Christensen, M. E. Kuban, T. Blak, N. S. Williams, and R. Blanchard. (2005). Handedness in pedophilia and hebephilia. Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 34, No. 4, Aug. 2005, 447­59.

VanTucky and others are free to provide criticism that has high enough quality to be published in a journal if needed. If you think the studies are flawed, that's the level you need to reach. Happy Camper II 05:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Whoever keeps removing the material has some serious explaining to do. Lets hear it. Happy Camper II 05:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

what is going on here? MoritzB quotes perfectly academic references, and they are removed on no other grounds than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. If this is "one peer journal article out of multitudes that oppose the idea", let's see the multitude. The only WP:SYN I can find in the disputed paragraph is the title "Occurrence in homosexuals": this suggests the flawed implication that "first" there is a population of homosexuals vs. heterosexuals, and "then", there is a certain incidence of pedophilia. Also, the fact that such studies are abused by conservative anti-gay propaganda is irrelevant to their validity. The part "Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 620 times higher among pedophiles" is of course a typo (almost too blatant to be intentional?), the proper reading is "Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6–20 times higher among pedophiles". dab (𒁳) 11:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Article fully protected

The article has now been fully protected as there's a full-on edit war over that Ray Blanchard study. Folks - please work out your differences here on the talk page or come to some consensus over the paragraph. When you're ready, just get back to me or file a request for unprotect at WP:RPP. Thanks - Alison ☺ 05:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

A compromise wording?

An extended version of this debate is at Talk:Homosexuality. By and large it involves the same people so there's no need to revise it here (except for Happy Camper II who is a new editor and has not contributed over there. Welcome to Wikipedia).

My view, for what it is worth:

• User:MoritzB has added some content to this article, and provided sources to support it. Thanks to him/her for that.
• However, the various talk page discussions have made clear there is no consensus for this material, as there is a substantial body of evidence opposing the studies MoritzB refers to and including this minority view gives it undue weight.
• As a compromse, we could perhaps adopt the middle-of-the-road wording from Homosexuality:

Gay men are also often alleged as having pedophiliac tendencies and more likely to commit child sexual abuse than the heterosexual male population, a view rejected by mainstream psychiatric groups and contradicted by research (add a couple of links here).

The above would seem to address both views in proper context. As always, any other ideas or suggestions welcome. Euryalus 06:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I read the discussion and its clear that there has been a missunderstanding, sexual abuse against children and development factors among pedophiles and homosexuals are two separate issues, one cannot be used to settle the other. User:MoritzB's material should be added unless someone has a serious criticism against them. Happy Camper II 06:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

My view:

• There is (scientific) evidence that Blanchard's paper is a minority view. Five different studies confirm the association between homosexuality and pedophilia. Some of them propose causality, others only correlation.
• The opposing studies are old compared to the recent studies I provided. (Jones) and (Blanchard et. al.)
• As the link between pedophilia and homosexuality is certainly notable there should be a separate section about this. See also: WP:PAPER

A compromise proposal:

Some scientific studies indicate that there is a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. According to Blanchard et. al. "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 620 times higher among pedophiles." The high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles indicates that that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are not different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults. According to W.H. James there seem likely to be causes common to male homosexuality and paedophilia. However, according to earlier studies the correlation is less significant. An empirical study found that homosexuals are at about a 11:1 ratio in the pedophile population and at a 20:1 ratio in the general population.

+ all other studies we may find. MoritzB 06:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Happy Camper, the serious arguments against it include:

• It contains elements of synthesis (that is, it draws conclusions from data rather than simply noting the findings). This is against a Wikipedia policy titled WP:SYN.
• While the quoted studies exist, they represent a minority view when compared to the volume of material rejecting the view that homosexuals are more likely to be pediophiles. Detailed coverage of these studies might give undue weight to the minority view and distort the overall presentation.
• There is also a minor problem of quoting from sources that require payment or registration to be viewed. Sources such as these are discouraged as the backup they provide to statements in the article may not be accessible to most editors. Compared to the above this is a fairly minor issue, but would need to be addressed if the studies were to be referenced.

MoritzB, I welcome your suggestion of a compromise but it still presents only one view, and that is a distinct minority. That seems to me to be give it undue weight, again. Adding this much text woudlr equire serious mountains of opposing studies to balance it, which as you indicate would be too long for this article and distort the overall presentation.Euryalus 06:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, why do you say that Blanchard's view is in the minority? What (scientific) evidence is there? Five different studies state the association between homosexuality and pedophilia. MoritzB 06:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

• It's not the case, but even if it was, its a small problem that is easy to fix. It doesn't warrant the deletion of all material.
• You have offered no proof for this.
• This does not warrant the deletion of the material. Happy Camper II 07:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't see any problems with adding the bit on the alledged homosexuality link, as long as it can be backed up by reputable sources. Some counter-arguments could also be offered. If we consider "minority" opinions from the likes of H.E. Barbaree (who believes that all child molesters should be labeled as pedophiles), Richard Green (arguing tha pedophilia is not a mental disorder) or Fred Berlin (suggesting that peodophilia is a valid sexual orientation) as significant enough to include in the article, I frankly don't see how quoting a little from Blanchard et al. is so much different in this regard. Of course, another matter is whether such information is at all relevant to the pedophilia article. If a consensus is reached, I suppose that it can be incorporated in the "extent of occurence" section. Equilibrist 21:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

A summary of sorts

It would help if we had this conversation in one place, instead of both here and the Talk:Homosexuality page.

Happy Camper - we will have to agree to disagree on synthesis. I think it is a major problem as it moves articles away from their factual base into original research. This does not suggest the original research or the synthsized conclusion is right or wrong, but synthesis converts Wikipedia from an encyclopedia into a collection of essays. On the second point, a sample of the contrary views can be found in footnotes 29 and 30 of the Homosexuality article, the papers listed by User:Tim Vickers on that talk page, and the commetns by User:Becksguy regarding the Blanchard study. I don't think MoritzB is suggesting that the Blanchard study represents a majority view - only that it and similar deserve a mention.

In summary -

I proposed words to the effect of this:

Gay men are also often alleged as having pedophiliac tendencies and more likely to commit child sexual abuse than the heterosexual male population, a view rejected by mainstream psychiatric groups and contradicted by research (add a couple of links here).

MoritzB proposed this:

Some scientific studies indicate that there is a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. According to Blanchard et. al. "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles." The high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles indicates that that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are not different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults. According to W.H. James there seem likely to be causes common to male homosexuality and paedophilia. However, according to earlier studies the correlation is less significant. An empirical study found that homosexuals are at about a 11:1 ratio in the pedophile population and at a 20:1 ratio in the general population.

Happy Camper supports MoritzB's alternative. I think it gives too much weight to one side and overstates the reliability of the Blanchard study.

Does anyone else have an opinion? Euryalus 07:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I tend to support Happy Camper's compromise, though I am of the opinion that it needs to be shortened somewhat and incorporated in the "extent of occurence" section, rather than having it's own sub-section. I think that the short line as proposed on the talk:homosexuality is too POV as it seems to imply that there is no "research" but merely "allegations" on the other side of the debate. Equilibrist 22:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Look, there are two different questions here:

• What developmental factors are behind pedophilia and homosexuality, is there a link?
• Does homosexuals commit a disproportional amount of child sexual abuse?

Your proposal takes a rather one sided view on the second question while completely ignoring the first. Both issues should be addressed and properly sourced (Maritz did his part already). Happy Camper II 07:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

There are indeed two different questions.

On the first question, the studies MoritzB quotes suggest a correlation between pedophilia and homosexuality but not causation. Suggesting causation on the basis of this research is the synthesis I was referring to above. In any case, the research is contradicted by substantial other research, examples of which have already been given.

On the second question, there seems to be very little data to suggest that a higher percentage of homosexuals are also pedophiles, compared to heterosexuals. Certainly the overwhelming majority of pedophiles are heterosexual, as previous editors have noted both here and in the similar discussion at [[Talk:Homosexuality]. It should also be borne in mind that even if there are a number of homosexuals who are pedophiles it is once again a synthesis to automatically leap to the conclusion that there is a link between the two. The majority of pedophiles are two legs and there is no automatic link between these two facts either.

Moritz proposal claim only correlation, not causation. Basically all research in this area is of a correlational nature, its just the way things are in the current state of research. The development of homosexuality does however seem to have a connection between pedophiles and homosexuals, and for this you have offered no contrary evidence so far.

His text does not even address the second question, this one should however be covered as well but we can leave it for later. At this moment, his text can be restored since it involves no controversy in the slightest. Happy Camper II 13:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Just some comments - I don't have much more to add to this debate and would welcome a wider contribution from others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Euryalus (talk • contribs) 10:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a few questions on the research. Are these statistics for men who identify as homosexuals or are all underage sexual contact listed as homosexual because they occur between two males? Jmm6f488 07:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"Homosexual pedophiles" are exclusively attracted to boys (25-40%), "heterosexual pedophiles" are exclusively attracted to girls. Also, I noticed an important clarification: "Ordinary (teleiophilic) homosexual men are no more likely to molest boys than ordinary (teleiophilic) heterosexual men are to molest girls."

This should be added, too.

MoritzB 07:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess my question is some heterosexuals molest young boys because essentially "they can" it is more of a power thing, like some heterosexuals will rape men in prison as a form of dominance. Does the study differentiate between people who are heterosexual that molest boys and those that are homosexual and molest boys? Jmm6f488 08:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that the Blanchard paper does not suggest that homosexual may have higher pedophiliac tendencies; it suggests that pedophiles may have higher homosexual tendencies. Very different.--Ramdrake 10:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, nobody denies that pedophiles have higher homosexual tendencies. It is a fact.MoritzB 14:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems everything is settled, lets unlock the article and add the text. Happy Camper 14:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Happy Camper II (talk • contribs)

"nobody denies that pedophiles have higher homosexual tendencies"? I wouldn't call 9% a higher tendency. That's a complete obfuscation. VanTucky ^(talk) 22:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Where do you get the 9% from? Is it from the 11:1 ratio? That was the ratio of heterosexual to homosexuals within the pedophile population. 20:1 is the ratio of heterosexuals to homosexuals in the nonpedophile population (or rather in the whole population). Assuming those numbers are right then it does mean that pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than nonpedophiles. That doesn't mean that pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than they are to be heterosexual, and as far as the ratio between pedophiles and nonpedophiles within the hetero or homosexual population, these numbers don't tell us anything about that. Ospinad 23:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, just assumed that everyone had seen the alternative studies presented in the same discussion over at Talk:Homosexuality. That is where I got it. You may want to look at those, and a study which directly addresses the theory that "pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than nonpedophiles". This appears to be untrue. The overwhelming majority of pedophiles are heterosexual males. Pointing out something other than that is a falsehood, and is designed for one purpose, and one purpose only: to conflate homosexuality and pedophilia. VanTucky ^(talk) 23:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll go through that discussion when I get a chance but just going by what you said it seems like you are confusing two different things. It seems like you believe these two statements contradict themselves:

1. The overwhelming majority of pedophiles are heterosexual males
2. Pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than nonpedophiles

However, they don't. Now I could care less about the issue of pedophilia but speaking from a strictly logical point of view, both of these statements could be true. If 2 out every 10 pedophiles were homosexual and 1 out of every 10 nonpedophiles were homosexual then #1 would be true because there would be 8 heterosexual pedophiles for every 2 homosexual pedophiles, and #2 would be true because pedophiles would be more likely to be homosexual (20%) than nonpedophiles are to be homosexual (10%). But like I said, this doesn't tell us anything about the probability that a homosexual (or a heterosexual or any random person) would be a pedophile. It could range anywhere from 1% to 99%. Ospinad 23:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying they contradict themselves, I'm saying that according to the evidence provided by the study "Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals?" there is no increased risk of sexual abuse by homosexuals, with the vast majority of sexual abuse being carried out by heterosexuals. If the slightly higher percentage of homosexual pedophilies (as compared to the general population) has no substantial affects, then why is it relevant? If homosexuals are a patent minority of pedophiles, why is more attention to them as such necessary (unless you want to suggest otherwise in contradiction of the facts?). Adding these stats as if the suggested homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles is giving undue weight to a tertiary subject in the study of pedophilia in order to push an agenda. VanTucky ^(talk) 23:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

You should beleive in the good faith of others. Accusing people of pushing an agenda is not ok.

This subject has been documented in atleast 20 studies (that I know of) and probably over 100 in total, it should be unwise to leave it out since it is well established and interesting in understanding the etiology of pedophilia and homosexuality. Happy Camper II 05:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Your assertion of 20, much less 100, studies that "document" a predisposition by homosexuals towards pedophilia is highly doubtful. Simply saying so is not enough, and when making assertions about facts likely to be challenged, you should include reliable sources. As to the AGF issue, I'm sure everyone here has the best of intentions: to improve the article. The conflict is over what constitutes an improvement. I for one do not see how including content that conflates homosexuality and pedophilia is an improvement. VanTucky ^(talk) 06:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me clarify, I was talking about 2) "Pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than nonpedophiles", reference to 20 studies can be found in Freund (1989). It would be improper to ignore results that are consistent and well documented in research. Happy Camper II 07:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Happy Camper II (talk • contribs)

The studies from Freund, one already in the article from 1970 and this one from 89, are both outdated, and I don't see a link that demonstrates that they say what they say. Furthermore, such a statement, coming from a period in history where until recently homosexuality was still classified as a mental disorder, does not stand as a reliable contradiction of a much more recent and reliable study ("Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals?" ) which directly controverts that idea. What's more the numbers in the studies MoritzB provided do not say that homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. They make a correlation that shows a slightly higher percentage of homosexuals exist in the recorded pedophile population as compared to the general population. Whatever the change in compared stats for homosexuals, heterosexual males are still in the overwhelming majority when it comes to pedophilia. You're confusing a correlating statistic with a causal conclusion. VanTucky ^(talk) 16:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Did you notice that I wrote that I was addressing #2:"Pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than nonpedophiles" You keep misunderstanding because you address completely different issues. You are fighting windmill's here. Happy Camper II _{(oi oi!)} 17:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, Happy Camper II. Saying, "pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than nonpedophiles are to be homosexual" is not the same thing as saying, "homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals are to be pedophiles." If the first one is true that doesn't mean the second one is true. VanTucky, it does seem like you keep misunderstanding. First you said that you disagreed with the statement, "pedophiles have higher homosexual tendencies" then you said that the study, "Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals?" contradicts that. It doesn't. Your study says that most pedophiles are heterosexual. That's fine. But the studies from Freund (according to Happy Camper II) say that pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than nonpedophiles, and that doesn't contradict it. I think that both of these statements are ok to go in the article because they don't contradict each other...

• "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles."
• "The perpetrators of child sexual abuse or assault are overwhelmingly adult heterosexual males. In one study, 88% of the adult perpetrators were identified as heterosexual whereas less than 1% were identified as possibly homosexual."

Ospinad 18:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems like there's a lot of OR debate going on here. Per WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE, any paragraph on this topic should first and foremost present the mainstream scientific view, and then discuss minority views in accordance with their prominence in the academic field. As I've suggested at the parallel discussion, here is a draft proposal:

According to mainstream health organizations, there is no evidence that gay people are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children.[1] The American Psychological Association states: "The perpetrators of child sexual abuse or assault are overwhelmingly adult heterosexual males. In one study, 88% of the adult perpetrators were identified as heterosexual whereas less than 1% were identified as possibly homosexual. In addition, three-quarters (75%) of these heterosexual male perpetrators were or had been in a close relationship with the child's mother, grandmother, or another close relative. This research is consistent with other studies that indicate that individuals who commit child sexual assault or abuse are rarely homosexually identified persons."[2] One researcher explains: "Gay men desire consensual sexual relations with other adult men. Pedophiles are usually adult men who are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. They are rarely sexually attracted to other adults." (ref to Stevenson 2000) A minority of researchers, most famously Paul Cameron and Ray Blanchard, have published articles disputing the mainstream view. (ref to a few studies)

Fireplace 17:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I can lend my support to that. VanTucky ^(talk) 17:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It's ok as an addition to Moritz proposal. They are not in conflict. Happy Camper II _{(oi oi!)} 18:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. Blanchard agrees with the APA. He says that "ordinary (teleiophilic) homosexual men are no more likely to molest boys than ordinary (teleiophilic) heterosexual men are to molest girls" although he supports this statement with no evidence.

However, Freund says that "homosexuals are at about a 11:1 ratio in the pedophile population and at a 20:1 ratio in the general population".

Thus, that version would misrepresent Blanchard. MoritzB 18:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I am okay with Euryalus's proposal and also with Fireplace's proposal but I oppose the inclusion of Moritz' proposal, SqueakBox 18:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Moritz comments, but lets all remind ourselves that we are dealing with two different questions here which both should be included. With minor changes, both proposals are good for inclusion. Please read both texts again if there is uncertainty. Happy Camper II _{(oi oi!)} 18:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to disagree with adding this statement, "Gay men desire consensual sexual relations with other adult men. Pedophiles are usually adult men who are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. They are rarely sexually attracted to other adults." It's misleading because it's comparing apples to oranges. You can't compare homosexuals to pedophiles because they are not mutually exclusive. What is it trying to say? That gay men aren't as likely to molest than pedophiles or than heterosexuals? A person can be a homosexual and a pedophile. That statement is about as meaningful as saying, "Straight men desire consensual sexual relationship with adult women. Pedophiles are usually adult men who are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. They are rarely sexually attracted to other adults." The first statement is misleading because they are implying "Gay nonpedophile men, or straight nonpedophile men" Ospinad 18:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Mainstream scientific view on supposed link between homosexuality and pedophilia

First, I'd like to flag a few things about the editors who are pushing for the inclusion of the studies which suggest a link between homosexuality and pedophilia. User:MoritzB has been the subject of an ANI regarding his allegedly racist views, and has been threated with multiple blocks for pushing fringe views and canvassing. User:Happy Camper II has less than 50 edits, is already the subject of a CheckUser request, and says things like "not all facts are that pretty for homosexuals" regarding the "homo-article." These should be taken into account when assessing consensus.

Second, there's a consistent confusion in this discussion between sexual orientation and sexual-behavior-with-children. People seem to be defending the inclusion of the claim that "Pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than non-pedophiles", but that is inconsistent with the mainstream research (see below), which does not assess a man as a "homosexual" merely because he molested a boy.

Here is a summary of some of the mainstream scientific research conducted on this issue:

• "...no evidence is available from this data that children are at greater risk to be molested by identifiable homosexuals than by other adults. There is no support for the claim to this effect by groups advocating legislation limiting rights of homosexuals." Further, "A child’s risk of being molested by his or her relative’s heterosexual partner is over 100 times greater than [the risk of being molested] by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual." (Jenny C, Roesler TA, Poyer KL. Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals? Pediatrics. 1994;94:41-44.)

• "Sexual orientation, gay or straight, is not a good predictor of erotic interest in or sexual behavior with children," and "Gay men desire consensual sexual relations with other adult men. Pedophiles are usually adult men who are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. They are rarely sexually attracted to other adults." (Stevenson, M.R. (2000). Public policy, homosexuality and the sexual coercion of children. Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality, 12(4))

• A review of the literature provided no evidence that gay men are more likely to molest children than heterosexual men. (Newton, Homosexual behavior and child molestation: a review of the evidence, 1978).

• "A random sample of 175 males convicted of sexual assault against children was screened with reference to their adult sexual orientation and the sex of their victims.... There were no examples of regression to child victims among peer-oriented, homosexual males. The possibility emerges that homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia may be mutually exclusive and that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater risk to the underage child than does the adult homosexual male." Groth, A.N., & Birnbaum, H.J. (1978). Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7 (3), 175-181.

• Calling the above Groth study "the most sophisticated of its kind": "Since 1978, no credible new data have been published that contradict the conclusions of Newton (1978) or Groth and Birnbaum (1978). Why do many lay people continue to believe this stereotype? One reason is that understanding the data concerning child molestation requires sufficient knowledge and sophistication to distinguish male-male sexual molestation from adult homosexuality, and to understand that male-male molestations are perpetrated by men who are heterosexuals or who lack any adult sexual orientation." (GM Herek - Homosexuality: Research implications for public policy, 1991)

• "Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation." (Groth, A. N., & Gary, T. S. (1982). Heterosexuality, homosexuality, and pedophilia: Sexual offenses against children and adult sexual orientation. In A.M. Scacco (Ed.), Male rape: A casebook of sexual aggressions (pp. 143-152). New York: AMS Press.)

• "There is no evidence that homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children." (American Psychological Association)

• "The value of children themselves and the necessity of the state to protect them from dangers had not changed, but what had was the conceptual understanding of behavior that constituted this risk. This new body of research, allied to investigations into sexual normality itself that revealed its pluralistic practices, meant that from the early 1960s, the association between homosexuality and pedophilia gradually began to fade away." (The rise and fall of homophobia and sexual psychopath legislation in postwar society, J Pratt - Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, 1998)

• "The man who offends against prepubertal or immediately postpubertal boys is typically not sexually interested in older men or in women." (McConaghy, N. (1998). Paedophilia: A review of the evidence. Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry, 32(2), 252-265.)

Now, regarding Blanchard's studies on this issue, mainstream scientists have called him "uninformed" and "often confus[ing] sexual behavior with sexual orientation" (Understanding Child Sexual Abuse and the Catholic Church: Gay Priests Are Not the Problem By Michael R. Stevenson, Ph.D.) and that he "did not directly assess the sexual orientation of perpetrators." Regarding Elliot, "In this study, child sex offenders were interviewed. Their sexual orientation (gay, heterosexual, bisexual) wasn't assessed." (Herek, UC Davis Dept. of Psychology).

With all that data in mind, here is another draft proposal:

The consensus among mainstream health professionals is that there is no evidence that gay men are more likely than heterosexual men to molest children.[3] Most male molestation victims are assaulted by men (cite; even to Blanchard if you like), but these male perpetrators are overwhelmingly heterosexual or else are not sexually attracted to other adults. (Stevenson, Groth, Jenny, etc.). Prior to the 1960s, mental health professionals tended to associate homosexuality with pedophilia, but in light of new bodies of research and a new understanding of sexual normality, that view gradually faded away. (Pratt, APA).

Fireplace 02:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Lesbian pedophiles are virtually non-existent. Furthermore, the amount of homosexual pedophiles (25-40%) is relevant and not controversial. Can you offer some studies which dispute Blanchard's figures? You also chose the ignore the studies which stated that homosexuality and pedophilia likely have a common cause.MoritzB 03:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The cited studies are inconsistent with the claim that "25-40%" of child molesters are homosexual. See Jenny, Stevenson, Groth, and McConaghy. Fireplace 03:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Still confusing child molestation with the percentage of homosexual orientation among pedophiles. I assume this consistent confusion stems from wrongfully thinking that pedophiles equals child molesters, which is not how the term is defined in mainstream research. Once again, no evidence against Blanchard et al. have been offered. Happy Camper II _{(oi oi!)} 05:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Evidence against Blanchard doesn't need to be offerred and hashed out in this setting. It's enough to show (as it has been, with citations, above) that the mainstream scientific community rejects his research. It's not up to us to decide the validity of his research, but merely to determine what the scientific consensus is on it. And that's been done. --joeOnSunset 09:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You know what? This is rediculous. I'm not sure indulging this is productive, as it's pretty obvious from the edit histories of some of the people involved that, well, let's just say it looks like there's a lack of "good faith." Heading for saner pastures... --joeOnSunset 09:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

joeOnSunset beat me to most of what needed saying. When someone proposes a reference to a particular study (eg the Blanchard one), there is no need to "prove" it right or wrong. What there is a need to do is identify precisely what the study indicates, consider what other material exists on the same topic, and determine how much weight (if any) this new study should have in a Wikipedia article on the subject.

In this case, the issues that we should be considering have been hashed and rehased in interminable detail. There seems to me to be a consensus that the Blanchard study suggests a correlation but not a causal link between homosexuality and pedophilia, that a host of other material on the topic contradicts the Blanchard findings, and that on balance any significant addition regarding the Blanchard study would result in undue weight being given to what is a minority scientific viewpoint.

MoritzB and Happy Camper II disagree with the above (in passing, Happy Camper II should be considered innocent of the sockpuppet allegation until proven guilty). Their views should be respected but they are in a clear minority, and consensus has not been established for their proposed changes. I am not sure continued debate on this is productive, as it seems very unlikely that anyone is going to change their views. Euryalus 09:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Your comments reveal simply that you haven't read Blanchard's study. 25-40% of pedophiles are homosexual. They are interested in boys, not adult men. This isn't a "minority scientific viewpoint" and no studies you have mentioned contradict these findings.MoritzB 12:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Everyone still seems to be confused. Saying that, "Pedophiles are more likely to be homosexual than non-pedophiles" says NOTHING about homosexuals, it only says something about pedophiles. And it doesn't contradict this statement, "gay men are less likely than heterosexual men to molest children."

• "Most male molestation victims are assaulted by men but these male perpetrators are overwhelmingly heterosexual or else are not sexually attracted to other adults."

What does this mean? That most child molestors who molest boys are men who are more attracted to women than men, or that they are men who are more attracted to boys instead of men? This is very misleading because it is going out of its way to avoid calling men who molest boys homosexual. Why is it so hard to believe that a person can be both a pedophile and homosexual? Men who molest boys are more likely to be homosexual pedophiles than they are to be homosexual nonpedophiles or heterosexual pedophiles or heterosexual nonpedophiles. Is anyone taking into account the difference between the number of children who get molested that are girls as compared to boys? If we are asking the question "are children more likely to be molested by homosexuals?" then that would depend on whether we are talking about boys or girls. If we are talking about boys then the answer would be yes, but overall girls are victims of molestation much more often than boys, so what does this really tell us? Ospinad 17:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

This is very misleading because it is going out of its way to avoid calling men who molest boys "homosexual". That's exactly correct. The mainstream literature specifically does not assess a man as homosexual merely because he molested a boy (the common sense reason here is that a lot of child molestation has to do with power, ease of access, etc., not simply gender). Each of the studies on this topic includes a section describing their assessment techniques. Blanchard, et al., are criticized for failing to draw this distinction. Fireplace 18:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I still don't get it, lol. "Most male molestation victims are assaulted by men but these male perpetrators are overwhelmingly heterosexual or else are not sexually attracted to other adults" Let me ask you a question. It basically says that most of the men who molest boys are "heterosexual OR are not sexually attracted to other adults (in other words PEDOPHILES)" Well, which one are they? Are most men who molest boys heterosexual or pedophiles? And when it says "heterosexual" do they mean heterosexual nonpedophiles? And when they say "pedophile" do they mean heterosexual or homosexual pedophiles? You know, homosexuals can be pedophiles just like heterosexuals. Calling a man who molests a boy a "homosexual pedophile" is not anymore of an insult to homosexuals than it is to heterosexuals to call a man who molests a girl a "heterosexual pedophile". Ospinad 01:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

This is the proposal we are discussing:

Some scientific studies indicate that there is a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. According to Blanchard et. al. "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles." The high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles indicates that that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are not different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults. According to W.H. James there seem likely to be causes common to male homosexuality and paedophilia. However, according to earlier studies the correlation is less significant. An empirical study found that homosexuals are at about a 11:1 ratio in the pedophile population and at a 20:1 ratio in the general population.

It needs a little tweaking but its essence is clear and claims nothing about homosexuals being child abusers. To clarify even more we can change "homosexual attraction" to "homosexual attraction towards children" to leave nothing to chance. So you can list 1000 studies that show that homosexuals do not molest children more than heterosexuals does, it still does not contradict Blanchard's findings, since he did not study that. Should be clear enough. Happy Camper II _{(oi oi!)} 17:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, I agree with Happy Camper II. To put it simply, these two statements don't contradict each other.

1. Pedophiles are more likely to be homosexuals than nonpedophiles.
2. Pedophiles are more likely to be heterosexual than homosexual.

Also, neither one implies that most homosexuals are pedophiles. Ospinad 17:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you're arguing that both your 1. and 2. above are consistent with the mainstream position, and should be included. If so, I think you've making a statistics mistake. I'll pick a number out of the air to demonstrate what I mean. Suppose 5% of the entire male population is gay. According to the mainstream view cited above, gay men are no more likely to be pedophiles than straight men. So, the percentage of gay men in the population of pedophiles is less than or equal to 5% (according to the mainstream view). But that is inconsistent with your statement #1 above. Fireplace 18:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

According to Freund the proportion of pedophiles who are also teleiophilic homosexuals is 1/11. Another mainstream position is that the percentage of homosexual pedophiles (who are exclusively interested in boys) is 25-40%. MoritzB 18:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I think you're making a mistake :-)

"The mainstream view cited above" doesn't show that "gay men are no more likely to be pedophiles than straight men." It shows that pedophiles are more likely to be heterosexual than homosexual, which was my #2 above. I said it before and I'll say it again. Saying that pedophiles are more likely than nonpedophiles to be homosexual is NOT the same thing as saying homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to be pedophiles. Big difference. In fact, no one here has cited any studies that show the percentage of pedophiles within the homosexual, heterosexual or general population. All we know is that 5% of the general population is homosexual. 25-40% of the pedophile population is homosexual. What percentage of any population are pedophiles? We don't know; these numbers don't tell us anything about that. Ospinad 00:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I've responded to this already, and repetition is no longer fruitful. From the various comments you've made and the terminology you use, I suspect you neither have a science/research background, nor are you very familiar with contemporary academic discussions about sexuality. If you have library access, I invite you to review the articles I cited above.

In the meantime, the only people currently advocating for the inclusion Blanchard's claims are Ospinad and MoritzB (Happy Camper II was perm banned from wikipedia, and MoritzB has been repeatedly warned and threated with blocks for pushing fringe theories).

SqueakBox, Jeeny, VanTucky, Euryalus, joeOnSunset, and myself are all opposed to that presentation. The consensus seems clear. Fireplace 02:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be confused, Fireplace. Blanchard said that 25-40% of male pedophiles are homosexual. This fact isn't controversial. At least you haven't cited any studies which dispute this figure.

Blanchard didn't say that ordinary, teleiophilic homosexuals are more likely to molest children. MoritzB 02:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

A comment on Blanchard. He has never suggested that homosexual males attracted to adults are likely to molest children any more than heterosexual males. In "Pedophiles: Mental Retardation, Maternal Age, and Sexual Orientation", a study by Blanchard and others, it was shown, based on phallometric tests, that men who molested boys exclusively were, in average, not sexually interested in adult men, virtually no more interested in adult men than in adult women, and much more interested in girls than in adults of either gender (they hardly can be compared to ordinary homosexuals, then). In "The Discriminative Validity of a Phallometric Test for Pedophilic Interests Among Adolescent Sex Offenders Against Children", another study by Blanchard and others, it was shown, again based on phallomatric tests, that men who molested boys were not in average attracted to adult men, and that in average their were even more attracted to adult women. In "Fraternal Birth Order and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles", Blanchard and his colleagues explicitly stated that men attracted to adult men were no more likely to molest children than heterosexual men attracted to adult women, and caustioned against the misuse of his work. Groth similarly has said that men who molest boys are not typically homosexual in adult orientation. As one can infer, what Blanchard, who's criticized by Fireplace, and Groth, who's praised by him, have shown and said is essentially the same. 189.13.149.79 16:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Note on Happy Camper II

FYI: Happy Camper II has been indefinitely banned from Wikipedia as a sockpuppet of an individual indefinitely banned by the ArbCom. Fireplace 23:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal

"Around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. As epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles. The high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles indicates that that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles may not be different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults and according to W.H. James there seem likely to be causes common to male homosexuality and paedophilia.

Still, there is little or no evidence that ordinary homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children. However, according to Freund homosexuals are at about a 11:1 ratio in the pedophile population and at a 20:1 ratio in the general population."MoritzB 02:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Consensus already exists against this. Fireplace 02:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

No. The versions you have proposed haven't been adequately discussed and are in a logical contradiction with the sources. (Blanchard)

I can't help if you do not have JSTOR access but if you have please read the study. I cannot copy the whole article. MoritzB 03:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

You mean SOURCE, as in, single source. There are many above that do not agree with YOUR one source. As usual. Pfft! - Jeeny ^Talk 03:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Moritz piece assumes pedophilia and homosexuality are the same thing as if men and boys werte the same thing, so lots of faulty assumptions and I too oppose, SqueakBox 03:52, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

A male pedophile who is exclusively interested in boys is called a homosexual pedophile in scientific literature.MoritzB 04:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The article in dispute sounds more of a story of gay bashing rather than an article of truth. Who knows what the book really says and how much the statement is taken out of context or order. --CobraBK 05:09, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

If there are sufficient reliable sources for content of this type, such content should probably be included. I would like to see the sources which are specifically referred to. Unless those sources are specifically pointed out, I would think that inclusion might qualify as giving the idea undue weight. Also, the last comment above by MoritzB doesn't indicate how widespread "homosexual pedophilia" is, and is not in and of itself particularly relevant. In a case like this, however, I do think at least two comparatively reliable sources would probably be desirable before the addition of such content, preferably with the content changes indicated here before made in the article itself. John Carter 23:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

"The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles." (Blanchard et. al.) Blanchard cites numerous studies which support this view. We don't know of any studies which would dispute that rate.MoritzB 23:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

For any new readers: the problem with the above quote is that it suggests (even if it doesn't literally state) that a disproportionately high number of pedophiles are homosexual, which is contradicted by the mainstream view. A proposal which captures the mainstream view (cataloged here is:

The consensus among mainstream health professionals is that there is no evidence that gay men are more likely than heterosexual men to molest children.[4] Most male molestation victims are assaulted by men (cite; even to Blanchard if you like), but these male perpetrators are overwhelmingly heterosexual or else are not sexually attracted to other adults. (cite to several studies, incl. Stevenson; Groth; Jenny; etc.). Prior to the 1960s, mental health professionals tended to associate homosexuality with pedophilia, but in light of new bodies of research and a new understanding of sexual normality, that view gradually faded away. (Pratt, APA).

Fireplace 01:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

You haven't responded to the criticism about that proposal. Why do you want to exclude Blanchard's study which doesn't contradict the mainstream view?MoritzB 10:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

you are confusing the issue. "there is no evidence that gay men are more likely than heterosexual men to molest children" may be correct, and it may still hold that "around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys". For example, "pedophiles preferring boys" may not answer to the description of "gay men" at all, and may show no "outward" sign of homosexuality other than their pedophilia. MoritzB's study is perfectly quotable, but it should not be used to imply things it doesn't, such as "higher incidence among homosexuals". If, according to "Freund", "homosexuals are at about a 11:1 ratio in the pedophile population and at a 20:1 ratio in the general population", "incidence of pedophilia among homosexuals" is just about twice as high as among homosexuals, not "6-20 times", and the question is raised of how significant this result is. Freund may well be quoted side by side with APA saying there is "no evidence". What will not do is simply removing all references to the academic discussion of the question. dab (𒁳) 11:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Freund's study investigated the incidence of teleiophilic homosexuality among pedophiles (1:11). Freund himself says that 40% of male pedophiles are homosexual and attracted to male children. MoritzB 13:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

MoritzB, the possible inclusion of the Blanchard study has been debated and debated at interminable length both here and at Talk:Homosexuality. The problems of undue weight, synthesis and the basic significance or otherwise of his findings have received a good airing. You're welcome to continue this debate but I sincerely doubt there will be any change of views sufficient to change the current consensus that this study does not deserve a place in this article. Euryalus 11:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not paper. A short paragraph about relevant non-controversial scientific findings cannot be undue weight. Furthermore, most of the objections have been based on false arguments.

Dr. Paul Cameron has drawn some false conclusions of Blanchard's study and people seem to believe in Cameron's interpretation of the study. http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet2.html

MoritzB 13:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

MoritzB has quoted several studies. His detractors afaics have not cited a single study refuting him, except a link to a faq at apa.org. This is not acceptable. If Blanchard is really "fringe" (I wouldn't know), we can expect the people familiar with mainstream thought to be able to provide crushing evidence. Instead, we get "debunking" along the lines of "The studies from Freund, one already in the article from 1970 and this one from 89, are both outdated, and I don't see a link that demonstrates that they say what they say." (VanTucky). This is not a bona fide debate. The Blanchard study is clearly pertinent to this topic (not to Homosexuality, this is the Pedophilia article). If it is fringy, it should be put in perspective by citing mainstream sources, and not by spin and hand-waving on talk. dab (𒁳) 13:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I only see one source (Blanchard) cited by MoritzB. Did I miss something? --Akhilleus (talk) 14:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

“approximately one-third of [child sex offenders] had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls.”

“Interestingly, this ratio differs substantially from the ratio of gynephiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature females) to androphiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature males), which is at least 20 to 1." Freund, K., Watson, R. & Rienzo, D. (1989). Heterosexuality, homosexuality, and erotic age preference. The Journal of Sex Research, 26, p. 107

According to the literature, findings of a two-to-one ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles have been documented." John M. W. Bradford, et al., “The Heterogeneity/Homogeneity of Pedophilia,” Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa 13 (1988): 225. Elsewhere the study notes: “Researchers have variously estimated the incidence of homosexual pedophilia between 19 percent and 33 percent of reported molestations,” p. 218.

A study of male child sex offenders in Child Abuse and Neglect found that fourteen percent targeted only males, and a further 28 percent chose males as well as females as victims, thus indicating that 42 percent of male pedophiles engaged in homosexual molestation. Michele Elliott, “Child Sexual Abuse Prevention: What Offenders Tell Us,” Child Abuse and Neglect 19 (1995'): 581. MoritzB 23:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)MoritzB 14:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

dab (𒁳), the problem with the Blanchard quote isn't the statistic, per se. The problem is that the presentation confusingly seems to suggest that pedophiles are disproportionately likely to be homosexual. This is clearly contradicted by the mainstream view (see the 9 studies/reports cited here). A version which presents Blanchard's data within the context of the mainstream view would look like:

The consensus among mainstream health professionals is that there is no evidence that gay men are more likely than heterosexual men to molest children.[5] There is evidence that between 25-40% of male pedophiles prefer boys, (cite Blanchard) but these male perpetrators are overwhelmingly heterosexual or else are not sexually attracted to other adults. (cite to several studies, incl. Stevenson; Groth; Jenny; etc.). Prior to the 1960s, mental health professionals tended to associate homosexuality with pedophilia, but in light of new bodies of research and a new understanding of sexual normality, that view gradually faded away. (Pratt, APA).

Fireplace 14:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Fireplace, you are forming an original synthesis (WP:SYN) which is forbidden. There is no evidence how many male pedophiles in Blanchard's data were involved in heterosexual relationships. Furthermore, Freund's study (1:11 ratio) needs to be included.MoritzB 15:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Blanchard's study and the Groth, Jenny, Stevenson, etc., studies were all making claims about the population as a whole. No one is saying that Groth, Jenny, etc., were talking about the same specific people that Blanchard talked to. There's no WP:SYN at play.

This sentence is an example of WP:SYN: "There is evidence that between 25-40% of male pedophiles prefer boys, (cite Blanchard) but these male perpetrators are overwhelmingly heterosexual..."

Also, true pedophiles are usually neither heterosexual nor homosexual. They are just pedophiles. The words are misleading.

MoritzB 15:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as Freund goes, there is *no* scientific consensus about the demographics of homosexuality in the general population. Having just pulled up the Freund article, the conclusion about the ratio in the general population isn't the conclusion of his own work. To support that claim, he instead cites studies from 1972, 1920 (!!), and 1983 (and, in the area of measuring sexual orientation demographics, older studies are clearly unreliable). Further, I wasn't able to find the 1:11 ratio in that paper. What page is it on? And finally, Freund's paper extensively cites Paul Cameron, who has been widely criticized by mainstream scientists and was even kicked out of the APA for noncompliance with an ethics investigation. Freud and Cameron have co-authored papers on homosexuality as well. This casts doubt on whether Freund's work can be considered mainstream. Fireplace 15:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The 1:11 ratio is in the abstract of Freund's paper. He is a respected scientist. MoritzB 15:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The abstract is available here. It doesn't mention a 1:11 ratio...? Fireplace 15:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"Using phallometric test sensitivities to calculate the proportion of true pedophiles among various groups of sex offenders against children, and taking into consideration previously reported mean numbers of victims per offender group, the ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles was calculated to be approximately 11:1. This suggests that the resulting proportion of true pedophiles among persons with a homosexual erotic development is greater than that in persons who develop heterosexually. This, of course, would not indicate that androphilic males have a greater propensity to offend against children."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1556756&dopt=Citation

MoritzB 15:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Previous objections still stand though. Fireplace 16:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid I don't understand your objections. The ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles is certainly relevant in this article. MoritzB 16:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

You don't understand the objections because they don't make sense. You're the only one here who does. Ospinad 20:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I see a big problem throughout this debate -- references to child molesters (legal category) are constantly jumbled up with pedophiles (psych category); there is some overlap between them, but they are not the same set of people. Sources which are about child molesters may have no relevence to this article. Poindexter Propellerhead 03:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

"Freund's study investigated the incidence of teleiophilic homosexuality among pedophiles (1:11)" -> That's untrue. Freund came to the 11:1 ratio based on a study by Gene Abel in which it was demonstrated that a sample of homosexual molesters victimized many more children than a sample of heterosexual molesters. As a sexual predator is more likely to be arrested the more people he victimizes, Freund wondered that the total proportion of heterosexual to homosexual child molesters might be different from that of busted heterosexual and homosexual child molesters. I believe many in here have tried to make polemicist presentations of studies. Freund did find a higher proportion of pedophiles with a bisexual/homosexual development compared to the general population, but those pedophiles are rarely interested in adult males (the most desired partners of gay men), which suggests that homosexual pedophiles are quite distinct, in their sexual profiles, from teleiophilic homosexuals. Plus, all of Freund's comparisons between non-criminal, teleiophilic homosexual and heterosexual men showed that homosexuals were no more attracted to children than heterosexuals (in some studies, the came out as even less attracted). Because of all of this, it can't be argued, based on Freund, that teleiophilic homosexuality is linked to pedophilia.189.70.215.143 11:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

External link

{{editprotected}} The very last External Link currently reads like this:- Paedophilia is not a crime - well reasoned, written by a monogamous married man. I'd like to propose removing the words "well reasoned" and the comma. WP:NPOV requires that we describe the link contents neutrally. (It would be a different matter if a reliable source had described the essay in those terms; then it would be a simple matter of attribution. But as it stands, this edit should be a no-brainer.) Sheffield Steel^talkers_stalkers 03:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

While you are at it take out the rest of the description, as well - no where in the article is the author identified by gender or sexual fidelity. 199.125.109.77 03:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Either remove the entire summary or replace it with something more neutral (ie not referring to the marital status or gender of the author). I also think we are at the point where the entire article can be unprotected. Euryalus 03:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

While the authors gender and fidelity is probably horribly irrelevent, it is stated on [6] that the article is written by Martin Willett: Editor of Debate Unlimited, and on [7] that his marriage is "faithful". I would suggest just changing the summary to indicate the name of the author. 199.125.109.51 03:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

That would seem to be more informative, as well as more neutral, in terms of information presented. I didn't suggest removing the rest of the description because I didn't want there to be any controversy about the edit. However, if we can reach a consensus as to what would be the best form of words for the description, so much the better. I would suggest that the author's name and editorial capacity would be suitable information to include. A name by itself is often not valuable information. Sheffield Steel^talkers_stalkers 04:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I've modified the wording to be more neutral. Cheers. --MZMcBride 09:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The linked essay is just private opinion by a totally non-notable person. Why is it useful for Wikipedia to refer to it? DanB†DanD 23:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Rewrites without consensus or even discussion

I don't keep up with this article as well as I should because I find it so depressing. However, I see that the long-standing first paragraph was rewritten some weeks ago, and reviewing the talk page for that period I find that there was no discussion of the rewrite.

To rewrite the lead of a controversial article -- perhaps the most notorious ongoing POV dispute on Wikipedia -- without establishing consensus on the talk page is really not good procedure at all. I believe that the article should be reverted to its older form. If people wish to argue for the new version, they should gain support for its specific changes before simply diving in.

DanB†DanD 22:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

There were discussions on the changes. You probably have to go to an archive of the talk page to see it. Ospinad 01:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I've reviewed the talk page for late July and there was no discussion of many of the major the changes to the lead, including replacing the long-standing, authoritatively sourced definition of pedophilia as a paraphilia.

I'm sorry to go back so far into "ancient history," but when process has been so badly disrupted it can't just be treated as a fait accompli.

DanB†DanD 05:13, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The current lead says "Pedophilia or pædophilia (see spelling differences) is a preferential or exclusive sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent youths. A person with this attraction is called a pedophile or paedophile. The ICD-10 and DSM IV, which are standard medical diagnosis manuals, currently describe pedophilia as a paraphilia and mental disorder of adults or older youths, if it causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." What looks wrong to you? A.Z. 08:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

A number of things look wrong to me.

1. PROCESS -- this lead was inserted without discussion, largely by you, as I see by reviewing the edit history. You do not simply rewrite the lead of a controversial article without discussion and then say "What's wrong with the new version?" You propose changes to a stable version, and the reasons for those changes, and gather support before making them.

2. SOURCING -- there is no source given for the main definition "a preferential or exclusive attraction". A common-sense summary in the lead may be fine for nonacademic articles, but when a definition is the subject of academic and popular controversy as this one is, defining statements need to be sourced.

3. ACCURACY -- the material cited to the DSM matches the next-most-recent edition, not the DSM-IV-R, which expresses current APA judgment.

4. CONSISTENCY -- some of the definitions in the body of the article--cited to well-known writers--refer to an attraction to early pubescents as well as to prepubescents. Removing the word "peripubescent" (although I consider that a clumsy word from a stylistic point of view) from the lead made the article's lead inconsistent with the body.

and, lest we forget:

5. PROCESS -- these changes have been made sloppily and high-handedly.

DanB†DanD 16:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe this was the only thing I changed. My other changes were reverted. A.Z. 05:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I apologize for the personal slant my comment took. DanB†DanD 05:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

"Considering a revert" in archive 7 covers all the discussion that Dan needs to see. Consensus was established, and repeatedly implied thereafter via the again, fully discussed modification of the first few sentences in ways that did not challenge the broad, nonmedical opening sentence. I agree with this usage because unlike other paraphilias, much of what is defined in dictionaries and throughout history as pedophilic may not satisfy the highly restricted medical diagnosis. It is clear that pedophilia has come to mean many different things in many different situations, and thus we should only state the one uniting feature, i.e. attraction in the opening sentence. 86.150.128.67 01:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Consensus? 86.150.128.67, if you are not a sock of a banned suer (which I believe you are, specifically Voice of britain/Farenhorst) how can you possibly talk about an alleged consensus that was reached in your absence, indeed before you even joined the project (you have been less than 48 hours). There has not been any conmsensus on any of the ped article in at least months and its a classic sign of those who push the pro-pedophile activism viewpoint to claim otherwise, as you folk continuously do in spite iof the evidenc almost as if your idea of consensus is to ignore anyone who opposes you and claim you have the only consensus, SqueakBox 03:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you please dump the unfounded, inflammatory and potentially damaging spiel about sockpuppets, or at least channel it into an active complaint? Also, please have a look at the archive. You will find that the article was most certainly changed with consensus. Am I allowed to take a look at the archive when the issue arises? I should hope I am. I joined this group of articles after seeing the problems caused by DPeterson and XavierVE, and I already have a great deal of knowledge for this website as a whole. I currently hold another account for unrelated articles, which exposes my personal details, although I am not currently engaged in editing with it (which regardless, would be fine by my reading of the rules).

The only person here who has improperly used a sockpuppet is yourself. 86.150.128.67 06:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

DSM

Is the DSM worth mentioning? If it is, then should it be mentioned in the introduction as saying that pedophilia is a paraphilia, without any further information? There's a rather large section of criticism on their article, and a section about the influence of politics when it comes to deciding what is a disease or not.

Also, what does the "standard" in "standard medical diagnosis manual" stand for? I'm not a native speaker of English, so this could be the reason why I don't know what the word "standard" is supposed to mean in this context. It looks like a vague, subjective, unverifiable term to me. If I'm right, then the sentence could be rephrased to "The ICD-10 and DSM IV, which are medical diagnosis manuals, currently describe pedophilia as a paraphilia and mental disorder of adults or older youths, if it causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." A.Z. 03:26, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

If anything is notable, DSM is. It's the most influential manual in the world in this area. However, I completely agree that the criticism of DSM (of which there is plenty) should be mentioned in the article. DSM has little or no scientific credibility left nowadays. Völund Smed 07:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The DSM is the single most widely used tool in regards to pedophilia within the legal and law enforcement communities the world over. Professionally, no other resource is considered credible. The idea that it shouldn't be mentioned is laughable, as even if it has fallen out of favor with the scientific community, it is still the primary professional resource when it comes to those dealing with pedophilia in society. VanTucky ^Talk 07:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

First line

The first and second sentences say "Pedophilia is a preferential or exclusive sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent youths. A person with this attraction is called a pedophile or paedophile".

It seems that everyone who has an exclusive sexual attraction to children necessarily has a preferential sexual attraction to children, so the words "or exclusive" are redundant.

The second line doesn't make it clear who is called a pedophile: is it someone who has a sexual attraction to prepubescent youths, or is it someone who has a preferential sexual attraction to prepubescent youths? Notwithstanding which is the right answer, the second sentence as it is just doesn't make it clear. A.Z. 04:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Certainly anyone who has an exclusive sexual attraction to children can also be said to have a preferential attraction towards children but the opposite isn't always true. If someone prefers children that doesn't mean that they're necessarily exclusively attracted to them. It might make more sense if those two words were reversed in that opening sentence because of what you said (something like "it's usually an exclusive attraction but sometimes it can just be a preferential attraction), but I think they should both stay in there just so there's no confusion.

As for the second line, basically it just means that anyone who has either kind of those attractions would be considered a pedophile. Someone who has a small attraction towards children but prefers adults wouldn't normally be considered a pedophile. Ospinad 14:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I really didn't know whether the second line said that. It needs to be made clear that someone who has a small attraction towards children but prefers adults wouldn't normally be considered a pedophile. What about if they have a strong sexual attraction both towards children and adults, but don't prefer any of them in particular?

I don't know. You're talking about gray areas. What would you call someone who was equally attracted to both males and females? Heterosexual or Homosexual? If we didn't have the word "Bisexual" we'd probably say they were a little of both but unfortunately we don't have a word that means "equally attracted to children and adults." "Ephebophile" doesn't exactly mean the same thing. Ospinad 22:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

As for the first line, what do you mean by saying "it's usually an exclusive attraction"? Do you mean that generally people who are attracted to children are not attracted to adults? I understand that, if someone prefers children, that doesn't mean they're necessarily exclusively attracted to them. I never said I didn't understand that, so I think we may have some miscommunication. The sentence I proposed was "Pedophilia is a preferential sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent youths." It could be "Pedophilia is a preferential sexual attraction by adults to prepubuscent youths. It is usually an exclusive attraction." or "Pedophilia is a preferential sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent youths. It can be an exclusive attraction." A.Z. 03:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I shouldn't have said that it is usually an exclusive attraction because that is my own opinion and I have no way of proving it. But I think your second example sounds good, "Pedophilia is a preferential sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent youths. It can be an exclusive attraction." If you want to make it clearer then you can change it to that and it won't change the meaning of what it's saying. Ospinad 22:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Pedophilia is usually an exclusive sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children; it's what makes it so difficult for them to have a happy sexual life with adults...because they generally have no interest in adults sexually. For instance, a man who may have sexually abused his (pre-pubescent) son or daughter, but when tested, shows to really favor adults sexually, would not be labeled as a pedophile by psychologists...at least not a true pedophile. He would rather be called a situational offender, mainly because he is not beyond their help. Flyer22 01:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source? A.Z. 16:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

A.Z., I'm removing that fact tag. Not only is it very well-known that pedophilia is the primary or exclusive (very much usually exclusive) sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children, but it is in prominent psychology books as that. And even this article mentions situational offender, which I just saw. If Pedophilia didn't mean the primary or exclusive sexual attraction to children, then it wouldn't be something that so compulsively takes over that person's life, as it is seen to in every pedophile where they aren't truly interested in adults sexually/romantically, and they wouldn't be thought of as beyond help. Even the article on Ephebophilia mentions that the reason it is defined as Ephebophilia is because it is the primary or exclusive sexual attraction to adolescents. The only difference there and here is that many normal men (and sometimes women) find mid-to-late adolescents sexually attractive. It is not considered normal to find pre-pubescent children sexually attractive. Pedophilia is not like bisexuality, which some people even argue the existence of, because "bisexual" individuals tend to have a sexual preference more often than not, and it is usually difficult for them to have a truly happy sexual/romantic life with the sex they do not favor (I've seen that countless times myself in real life). It is kind of odd, yes, how a person who has a little sexual attraction to the sex they do not favor, which is also argued to be inherent in all people, can be called a "bisexual", but a man who has molested his pre-pubescent son or daughter and yet tests to really be sexually/romantically attracted to adults is not labeled as a biaphile (a word I just made up), but that has to do with what a pedophile is truly defined as. I will later add a citation (maybe more than one of the same) to the definition of pedophilia, but for now...I am removing that fact tag. Flyer22 17:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Flyer, I think it's entirely inappropriate to remove fact tags like that. I think you should either re-add the tag or remove the definition, if you don't have a source. If you have a source, we'll say "according to X, pedophilia is..." I'm going to read your post now. A.Z. 17:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by "pedophilia is usually an exclusive sexual attraction"? Do you mean that people generally either have an exclusive sexual attraction to children or don't have any sexual attraction to children at all? You can't remove the tag based on your claim that the definition is "well known". I can't even understand what the definition means (as you can see from my question above). A.Z. 17:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel that it is a claim as to it being well-known, and I do have the source (sources), just not with me at this specific moment, but anyway. What I mean by "pedophilia usually being an exclusive sexual attraction to children" is what I stated above and that an exclusive sexual attraction to children is its true definition. However, sometimes situational offenders are wrongly mistaken to be pedophiles and are colloquially referred to as pedophiles, thus pedophilia has also been known to be defined as someone also capable of sexual/romantic attraction to adults, which is why the first line of this article now states "primary or exclusive". Anyway, since you feel that I shouldn't have removed the fact tag, I will make the move to add a citation or two sooner than later. Flyer22 18:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I added a source that addresses a lot of what I stated in this section, especially the term pedophile being colloquially used for the sex offenders (the ones who either sexually molested a child more so due to being a situational offender or the ones who had sex with a minor of adolescent years, such as a 17-year-old, but) who are not truly pedophiles. I could have easily added a reference to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders about pedophilia being an exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, but its entry isn't also about the mis-use of the term. Flyer22 20:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

NAMBLA

Would it be proper to include a mention of NAMBLA in this article? 70.118.88.184 16:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

No, NAMBLA is mentioned in the pro-pedophile activism article to which this article refers. Greetings: Roman Czyborra 10:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it would be appropriate, these people are also pedophiles not just PPAs, SqueakBox 20:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Theo Sandfort, teenagers, and the definition of pedophilia

Theo Sandfort, a very notable modern writer on pedophilia, published in 1984 the article "Sex in Pedophiliac Relationships" in The Journal of Sex Research. The subjects were 25 boys ranging in age from 10 to twenty-five, who were "then involved in pedophiliac relationships with adult males."

Clearly, the older of these boys are pubescent. It seems to me that this notable academic usage -- by one of the writers cited definitionally in pederasty -- causes a problem or two with the hard line between prepubescent "pedophilia" and pubescent "pederasty" that many editors on Wikipedia so forcefully assert.

How shall we incorporate this usage into the definitional paragraph? Dybryd 09:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how or if we should incorporate it. Pedophilia is certainly a different matter than pederasty or what one would call Ephebophilia, as we know, considering that a sexual attraction to mid-to-late adolescents is not considered a mental disorder, and with good reason I'd say, considering how 16 to 17-year-olds can easily pass for being legal adults, as in they look no physically different age-wise than 20-year-olds (well, the majority of the time). However, or if ever, we incorporate what you cite above, we have to make sure that it's not confusing, or alters the true definition of pedophilia, of course. Flyer22 12:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The question is, does pederasty sometimes extends below the pubertal age? If a pederast has a broad range of attraction, including individuals that are clearly sexually immature in appearance, then I would suppose that it is certainly relevant to pedophilia. However, at this point I doubt that it needs anything more than being mentioned under the "see also" category. Equilibrist 00:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Why?

Why do we even have an article on something so digusting? I'm willing to bet that half the visitors to this page think they are gonna find some kind of child porn. To be honest, I think we should round up all the pedophiles, shoot them in the groin, wait about 10 minutes, then shoot them in the head. Just my personal opinion, don't go all "flame-war" on me about it. Tyler Warren ^{(talk/contribs)} 11:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You know, pedophilia is referred to here as the sexual attraction by adults to children, not the sexual abuse of children. I can understand that a human being would have the desire to torture and kill people who have abused children, but actually doing it would be immoral, I think.

As for why having an article on something as disgusting as child sexual abuse, I think Wikipedia simply assumes that uncensored and free information is a good thing. A.Z. 23:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

And the best way to make a big problem an even bigger problem is to stop the info exchange and stick your head in the sand about it. No one can benefit from that. --DanielCD 20:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I am deeply saddened at some of the mentatility here, because you don't like something that's just cause for it not to exist? In whose world, yours? Because it does exist in the real world. If you don't like it perhaps you shouldn't live in it? What's worse is that, had he replaced "pedophile" with "homosexual", he probably would have been banned by now, or at least barred from editing giving his clearly discriminatory views, not to mention that the whole gay pride parade would probably have come on over just to defend their views. You express the most retardedist, juvenile, pig-headed opinion and then reply with "dont go all flame-war on me"... the only thing I will credit you with is at least you saved us the bother and didn't blank the page like some other asshats tend to do. 70.53.129.124 11:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that Tyler's comments are a prime example of the nature of the continuing problem of child abuse present-day. As a society, we seem content to throw pedophiles in jail for a couple years, and then humiliate and alienate them forever once they are released. Then some re-offend and nobody can figure out why and everyone screams "throw them in jail for life", "torture them", "execute them" etc. All these absurd patterns of behavior really do is nurse and exacerbate the problems they seem to attack. One of the most under-funded research areas in psychology today is the treatment and rehabilitation of pedophilia, especially violent pedophiles. The options available now are either quite ineffective or barbaric to say the least. I think it's quite presumptuous that one could claim "you can't cure pedophiles, they're too sick" or whatever variant you fancy. Such a statement assumes a complete knowledge of pedophilia, the psychological mechanisms that govern it, and proof that it is irreversible. Such attitudes seem to imply that we have reached the pinnacle of human achievement in this area while in fact we have done anything but. Only when we are able to view this problem in humane, rational, and scientific terms will we be able to address it with any meaningful confidence. So put simply, if pedophilia is a disease, then let us treat it as any other disease we seek to cure, as something that when eliminated will serve to benefit the individual as well as to ameliorate some of the pains of our society.

Kst447 (talk) 08:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed content on June

An editor has expressed concerns on this talk page about this removal of material. SqueakBox removed three times the post, so I'm posting this one that he won't remove. A.Z. 21:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

That is a banned user and a disruptive edit so my removal of it was fully justified given the history of problems, SqueakBox 21:17, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The previous version of this section actually pointed out that there were many unsupported deletions following on from the edit listed. Thanks to A.Z. for re-creating this section though. And considering that he was blocked with the official justification of sourcing academic opinion and creating an article that is now doing just fine, I wish him a speedy return to action. digitalemotion 04:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

General Observation on the Topic

Get rid of "pedosexual" it is a perversion, not a sexual orientation, as such it is a paraphilia, or something different from the norm. It is NOT normal to want to rape kids. 71.76.153.217 (talk) 03:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Im a kid, seriously, and i HATE pedos. They are sick. So call it what it IS, Child Sexual Abuse, or even better, merge with RAPE. 71.76.153.217 (talk) 03:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

God bless perverted-justice.com, and all the work they do locking these kinds of asshats up. 71.76.153.217 (talk) 03:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I think if I were Atticus Finch, I would conclude that rather than requiring a child to be unwilling in order to find him/her sexually attractive, that most pedophiles wish to believe that their sexuality in fact makes sense because some children do welcome such relations. Just because this is not so does not mean that pedophiles desire to rape, but rather they desire to express their genuine love, an action which in fact proves to be almost invariably harmful to the recipient. I would also purport that simply being abnormal is in no way grounds for lesser treatment on behalf of the majority. Rather, it is the harm done that warrants attention.

Kst447 (talk) 09:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

text removed due to not supported by the reference

The following text removed from article, because it does not match the reference:

In two studies designed to measure sexual preferences using phallometric data, it was found that "30% of the [child sex] offenders tested did not show sufficient arousal [to children] to derive a usable score."

The reference in the footnote: Wogan, Michael (2002). [8]Wogan, Michael (2002)

The text of the reference states that the test equipment itself was unusable, that the results could not be used.

Here is the text from the source:

No one is sure of the exact percentage, but there is a fairly high level of false negatives among convicted sex offenders who appear "normal" even though they are not. For example, in the study by Castonguay, et al. (1993) presentence offenders showed less arousal than those who had been sentenced. In some studies, 30% of the offenders tested did not show sufficient arousal to derive a usable score (Barbaree, Seto, Serin, Amos, and Preston, 1994; Freund and Blanchard, 1989). (But see Castonguay, et al., 1993, "[None of our tests] have yielded a phallometric record with absolutely no changes," p. 506.) Finally, there is concern among researchers that the measure may be susceptible to faking (Harris, Rice, Chaplin and Quinsey, 1999; Lalumiere and Earls, 1992; Proulx, Cote and Achille, 1993; Quinsey and Chaplin, 1988b; Rice, Harris and Quinsey, 1990).

That does not provide any information about the responses of the studied offenders,. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 05:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The source states that 30% of the studied offenders responded negatively [to child stimuli]. Barry Jameson (talk) 17:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious about the line "there is a fairly high level of false negatives among convicted sex offenders who appear "normal" even though they are not." Does that mean that the tests showed them to be "normal" but, what? Their own personal opinions say that they're not? What does "normal" mean in this context anyway? Still, I think the most neutral way to present the information would be to first, leave the sentence that you took out in there, but also add after it the sentence that followed it, "there is concern among researchers that the measure may be susceptible to faking," with all the references there are there. That way it not only shows that there are disagreements but it presents both sides and it lets the reader decide for themselves which side to believe per NPOV. Ospinad (talk) 15:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Have you read the full source text? It does not state what you wrote: "The source states that 30% of the studied offenders responded negatively" - it states this: "30% of the offenders tested did not show sufficient arousal to derive a usable score" - that means the score cannot be used; the equipment provides no data either positive or negative; it is "unusuable".

The heading and first paragraph of the section in the source state:

Disadvantages of phallometric assessment

Phallometric assessment has several disadvantages. The method is invasive, technically complex, and requires special equipment and specially trained personnel to administer. There is a risk of false positive identifications among normal males. The measure is ineffective with intrafamilial sex offenders, especially those with female victims, who often show normal patterns of sexual arousal (Barbaree and Marshall, 1989; Barsetti, Earls, Lalumiere and Belanger, 1998).

The entire section of the reference, the paragraph above and previously quoted, points out that this method of testing is not reliable, at risk of false positives, and therefore does not provide any data, positive or negative, that can be used for testing an individuals internal propensities.

The statement in the article misrepresents the source. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 19:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Not supported by the reference? Aside from a few parentheticals which you haven't disputed, it's an exact quote. Barry Jameson's paraphrase would also be supported: In a medical context, "negatively" means "not indicating the presence of a particular ... condition."[9] 30% of the samples did not show any indication of arousal towards children; thus, 30% responded negatively.

The author provides no evidence for his attribution of these negative results to instrument failure. His points simply beg the question. Nevertheless, I would not object to including them as well. AnotherSolipsist (talk) 21:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Jack-A-Roe, your claim is incorrect. The reason that the offenders weren't aroused is because they do not find images of children to be arousing.

Nowhere does the source state what you claim.

If this specific method of measuring arousal is at risk of false positives, that means that even fewer offenders are aroused by children, which contradicts your apparent beliefs. Pushing your POV by removing sources which you dislike - then claming that the source is being mis-quoted - is unacceptable. Barry Jameson (talk) 21:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

First, whatever you think about the reference, it is out of line to accuse someone of POV-pushing. See WP:POVPUSH. You also have no idea what my beliefs are, you only see my edits, so discuss those and leave me out of it. I'm sure you don't want me explaining what I think your POV is, and I don't intend to do so.

Back on-topic: Your statement above is simply incorrect. That reference specifically and clearly explains that the researchers do not trust the equipment to reveal dependable results. They also wrote: " Finally, there is concern among researchers that the measure may be susceptible to faking". So it's unreliable and subject to faking. That means that whatever the equipment shows, it is unreliable and can't be used.

However, it's a minor point and I don't want to take the time to argue about it. So, for now, I'll disengage from this discussion and return to later at a more convenient time. Best Wishes... --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 23:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Clearly if the statement is wrong then it should be altered to correct it. There is the issue of context and relative significance though. Are there any more significant or summarizing conclusions in that study, or in the stream of study? It does seem to be a little bit cherry picked to me, on face value. I guess I need to remind all, including myself, on the serious nature of this subject, and the importance of WP getting the facts straight without any distortion from pedophilia enthusiasts (no particular editor attributed). Jelly Roal (talk) 03:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

"Child Sexuality" in See Also & Content of "Pedophilia-Related Activism" Section

I would say that this IS related to pedophilia, as both have an impact on the same relationships (nonsexual or sexual). They are also related by their general association as discussion topics. GrooV (talk) 23:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Pedophilia is a psychological disorder of an adult. It doesn't matter what's going on inside the body or mind of a child. That is in a separate universe. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 23:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If a part of this article talks about adults who want to engage in sex with children and some that do in fact try to do so, how is "child sexuality" not a relevant topic for the See Also section? Especially considering that the child is the target of the adult's sexual attraction and, at times, his or her sexual advances. Furthermore, there is a section on pro-pedophile and anti-pedophile activism, which are two movements that have opposing stances on what constitutes child sexuality. Albeit the pedophile advocacy section is nothing but a couple titles right now, it should likely be expanded a bit. ~ Homologeo (talk) 23:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what child sexuality has to do this topic at all. But I do agree that the pedophile advocacy section can use some attention; based on your suggestion, I've started the text for one part of that section. I haven't added any text in the "anti-" part of that section. No agenda there, I just don't have that info on hand at this time. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 00:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Although I disagree in regards to whether or not it's appropriate to include the title "Child sexuality" within the See Also section (my reasons can be found above), I do appreciate you starting to fill in the pedophile advocacy portion. However, in my opinion, this section should simply be an overview, considering that there's an entire article on each of the two types of activism. Thus, I would recommend that this section include something akin to the introductions (with the pro-pedophile one currently pending in the MedCom wiki) of each of those other articles. I'll try to bring one of the currently proposed intros that got some approval at the MedCom wiki onto this Talk Page within a day or two. For the time being, I think the passage you just added would work, but it should probably be shortened a bit. That said, I don't think we should copy the intro that is at the top of the Pro-pedophile activism article here, because there's too much controversy surrounding it, and it's going to be replaced anyways with whatever we come up with at the MedCom wiki. ~ Homologeo (talk) 00:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I had a bit of an issue with you including Dallam, a paper that we all know of, but effectively demonstrating a rebuttal to a paper accused of PPA. This is not relevant to a brief description, as it is third level discourse. GrooV (talk) 02:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

1 out of 10 adults are pedophiles?

Are at least 1 out of 10 adults pedophiles?

Spinneypress: http://www.spinneypress.com.au/215_book_desc.html Dr. David Finkelhor Director, Crimes Against Children Research Center Horton Social Sciences Center, University of New Hampshire: http://commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Testimony&Hearing_ID=1885&Witness_ID=6683

According to many studies, about 1 out of 5 girls, and 1 out of 10 boys are molested, either by other children or adults (mostly males). What concerns me is that none of the articles I have read on this subject estimate how many adults are doing the molesting. Lets take girls, for instance, under the age of 18. If 1 out of 4 or 5 girls are being molested, and if about half of the molesters are older than 18, isn't 1 in every 10 adults (mostly males), a child molester? Putting this another way, if we include the molesters who are under 18 with those that are over 18, then about 1 in every 5 men (some women), are child molesters. Some adults molest more than on child, but some children are molested by more than one adult.

If this is not bad enough, how about the men/boys that only think about molesting women, but never act on it. In addition to this, who is looking at the hundreds of websites and magazines that either have nude, or sexually explicit photos and videos of children? Then there are the Japanese cartoons called Lolicon and Shotacon-Manga, where small girls and boys are having sex with adults. And lastly, what is the attraction now of all the porn photos and movies showing women with no pubic hair? It seems this also is relating back to prepubescent imagery.

So what do all of these examples show? Could there actually be 5 out of every 10 adult males who lust after children? It looks to me like there are a lot more adults molesting children, or lusting after them than previously thought. Has anyone seen any studies addressing this issue?

Thanks for reading my thoughts, and I hope some of you can prove me wrong.

° ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · § 62.148.169.47 (talk) 23:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Please look up the defition of pedophilia. Also, this is definitely original research. If you find reliable sources stating anything that you address above, please feel free to incorporate the information into the article. ~ Homologeo (talk) 01:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Your questions are confusing, as you seem to be unable to distinguish between pedophilia and child sexual abuse. We will be able to provide a better answer if you address paedophilia and child sexual abuse separately. If people are sexually attracted to children but not acting on their attraction, why is their sexuality even an issue for you? Barry Jameson (talk) 02:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all I think you are confusing pedophiles with child molesters. We know that there are some child molesters who aren't pedophiles but we can only assume that there are some pedophiles who aren't child molesters. Because a pedophile who's never molested would never come out and tell people he's a pedophile (except in rare cases like Lindsay Ashford) there's no way to know how many of them are out there. Also, in this question:

Lets take girls, for instance, under the age of 18. If 1 out of 4 or 5 girls are being molested, and if about half of the molesters are older than 18, isn't 1 in every 10 adults (mostly males), a child molester?

I think you are assuming that the total number of people under 18 are equal to the total number of people over 18. There are many more adults in the world than there are children. So the number of child molesters would be much less 1 in every 10. That's also assuming that only half of all child molesters are over 18 which is probably not true either. Ospinad (talk) 20:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems likely that a truly awful amount of child abusers are pedophiles. However, we would need to refer to research directly if that statement was made. Being specific is important here. So I think the 1 in 10 stat may be used in the article, but only if followed by more specific information on how many of them are considered pedophiles. It would also help if it explained why they are pedophiles in that context if the info is out there. I'll have a search. Jelly Roal (talk) 01:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Have you even looked at the pedophilia article? Only a fraction of child abusers are pedophiles. Barry Jameson (talk) 02:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you defending child abusers, pedophiles or both? I believe my edits and comments are based upon good research. It is clearly awful that such pedophilia is so common. The important thing is that the information gets presented here properly without any undue promotion of any particular view. Jelly Roal (talk) 03:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Nice sideways personal attack. Come on, now, there was no defending of either in that statement, but classic zealot response. The statement was that only a fraction of child abusers are pedophiles. Does that mean that one or both is somehow "noble"? Of course not. But the correlation between the characteristic of pedophilia and the action of child sexual abuse is not very high. One could say that "It seems likely that a truly awful amount of child abusers are" homosexuals... since there's a lot of man-on-boy abuse. Is that an accurate statement? No. Just as with Pedophilia and child sexual abuse, they may be related, but not strongly. How about "It seems likely that a truly awful amount of child abusers are" married. Does that mean that being married makes one a child molester? Or "It seems likely that a truly awful amount of child abusers are" Catholic priests. Same question. The fallacy is in equating an attribute and a behavior. Neither is being defended. One needs help and the other needs punishment (and help, but a slightly different kind). That was the point.  • VigilancePrime • • • 19 07:32 Feb '08

Then perhaps I should zealously reiterate; The important thing is that the information gets presented here properly without any undue promotion of any particular view.Jelly Roal (talk) 02:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Now that is the kind of zealotry that Wikipedia needs more of! Yes, the most important thing here is to present the information neutrally and work hard not to draw conclusions in the text (which is very easy to do even unintentionally). I personally also think that the focus of this article, just as every medically-based article, should be to the clinical standards of the condition without necessarily judgement. It's important to note the "common usage" of the term, but the article main should be about the psychiatric/medicological condition of pedophilia. (That will also help with bias concerns, by keeping a very scientific approach).  • VigilancePrime • • • 19 07:32 Feb '08

Clearly science view should be presented. But there is also the long term legal and ethical view to present, together with the views of the majority public. These aspects do seem to need more clear explanation. Not just whats and whos by any whys from the literature should be presented more clearly. Jelly Roal (talk) 03:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Expertise?

I have made a living out of processing and categorising these offenders according to the level of danger that they pose to the community according to risk benefit analysis, and have helped to rehabilltate them via individually tailored Self Help Action Timetables (SHATs) and Emotional Diaries. Rachel Cragg (talk) 20:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

If you have legitimate referenced information to add, please do so, but expertise does not carry weight for individual editors on Wikipedia. ~ Homologeo (talk) 00:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Nonetheless, expertise backed by reliable references is always more than welcome. -Jmh123 (talk) 06:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's welcome, but having expertise in real life does not make an editor's contributions to Wikipedia more worthy than those of others - exemplary sourcing and care for NPOV do that. ~ Homologeo (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct: the claim of expertise, in and of itself, does not give someone's contributions more weight than another's. The claim of expertise is just that, a claim, and experts should be subject to the same rigors as everyone else. Even experts rarely agree on everything about a subject, that is also important to recognize, but the contributions of people who actually know something about a topic should never be discouraged. I think that was a great error on the part of Wikipedia in its growing years. -Jmh123 (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Pro and Anti activism

The link to these two articles at the end, it seems a bit oversimplified. It is possible for activism to exist that might relate to issues like these, but not fit into a 'pro' or 'anti' label, such as things that have characteristics with aspects of either of the general classes. It is sort of a 'with us or against us policy' for the two, taking popular labels for it, and not recognizing neutral parties. Tyciol (talk) 11:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a complex issue. What do you suggest. Thanks, SqueakBox 14:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree aswell. Terrasidius (talk) 13:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Pedophilia or Paedophilia

Shouldnt the title of be the proper etymological spelling with the ae? As opposed to the American spelling meaning love of the ground? lol Terrasidius (talk) 14:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry can you expand. How does the American spelling mean something totally different. Thanks, SqueakBox 14:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, Pedo is the latinized form effectively meaning love of feet or the ground, where as the ae or æ is the purely latinized form of ai in the greek paidophilia; ae (æ) incidentally is pronounced aye or ah-ee. So Julius Caesar would be Yoo-li-oos Kai-sahr (in ancient roman latin, not more modern forms) exampli gratia. Terrasidius (talk) 13:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

"Cure"

Can the useage of words such as "treatment" or "cure" please be avoided where it refers to dealing with paedophilia. It somehow gives paedophilia as a condition, a negative connotation, one of a disease. This is certainly not the case! There are many like myself who see no need for this condition to be "cured", no more so in fact than you would choose to "treat" homosexuality. Putting innocents at risk (talk) 16:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The parts of the text that refer to possible "treatments" or "cures" are written from the mainstream medical and layman perspective, which identifies pedophilia either as a mental/sexual disorder or as a sexual paraphilia. ~ Homologeo (talk) 13:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I am failing to see what is meant by this. "Mainstream medical (and I'm assuming you include psychological, because psychological study mainstream determines the medical mainstream re: psychological disorders) and layman perspectives". Are you saying that the notion of the mainstream community and the layman community should be given LESS weight than the FRINGE medical and psychological community that believes pedophilia is not a mental/sexual disorder or a sexual paraphilia? If it's the mainstream medical view, then to neglect to include things which flow from it because the fringe medical view differs, would be to give undue weight to the MINORITY view.

If those are the mainstream medical views, and the layman's views, then premises and research which run from the MAINSTREAM position are appropriate for conclusion in the article, as long as we're not synthesizing them. I really don't get what you mean here. 71.7.206.159 (talk) 17:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Paedophilia is a condition. I'm struggling to see what all the fuss is about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Narcissus1x (talk • contribs) 23:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)