Talk:Istanbul

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Population

I think the opening sentence should only mention that Istanbul is the world's 4th largest city and not that it is also the 20th biggest urban area, because, unlike is the case with other cities of the world, there is almost no difference between the city proper population and that of the urban area, and because such a distinction never existed for Istanbullers. Istanbul is simply one big thing that defies the urban area definition. Think for instance of the ranstad in Holland comprising of cities quite far away from each other. I dont think Istanbul should be compared to that, at least not in the first sentence (perhaps urban area population could be mentioned elsewhere). I have therefore edited the first sentence. Feel free to share your thoughts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.194.200.7 (talk) 22:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

And it is not the most populous city in Europe, what about Moscow? :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.155.68.171 (talk) 16:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Name

Is Constantinople the original name of Istanbul?

Is this true? It was unsourced so I removed it:

"the name is a corruption of the greek phrase Eis-Tin-Poli which means towards the city"

--AW 21:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It's true. I have read it in many places and I thought it common knowledge. I think it should be added back in. In greek it is: Εις την πόλη (At/in the Poli=Constantinople) = Istanbul -- Olivia Guest 02:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The Eis tin Poli theory was first invented by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and has become famous through the past decades, even taking its place in Encyclopedia Britannica.

I believe the reality is far less complicated:

(I)stanbul is a direct Turkish abbreviation of Con stan tino pol is

The Turks add an "I" in front of foreign words which begin with "st", like istop for stop, istakoz for stakozi, istavrit for stavridis, istavroz for stavros, etc... (BTW, most fish names in Turkish are of Greek origin, as you may have noticed from these examples) DragutBarbarossa 16:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

See Names of Istanbul; the "eis tin poli" derivation is the universally accepted etymology everywhere in the literature, hasn't been seriously disputed since the 19th century. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

When a claim/definition is repeated time and time again, and appears in multiple resources through decades, it evolves into a fact. History is largely a narration. This, I believe, is the case for the Eis tin Poli theory. Similarly, for instance, many old historic textbooks claimed that the Egyptians built the pyramids by using slave labour with cruelty. But with the latest excavations, it turned out that most of these "slaves" were actually being payed.

Eis tin Poli, in my opinion, is an over-complicated story, which is designed to fit the Istanbul sound with the closest-sounding words in the Greek language. A modern Greek myth generated by the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I seriously doubt the Greek villagers in 1453 showed the road to Poli for the invading Turkish army by pointing their fingers and saying Eis tin Poli (as if the Turks were Martians and didn't know where Istanbul is - it was actually the Martians who built the Anatolian Castle on the Bosphorus in 1393 and the Rumeli Castle in 1452)

Furthermore, it is most unlikely that a city would end up being called 'to the city' (virtually a contradiction in terms.)Constantinople - the city of Constantine is preserved in 'Stan' 'bul' is a derivation and shortening of 'polis' (pol... bul) (p and b are phonetically extremely close), and the 'I' is simply put to enable Turkish speakers who find initial consonant clusters foreign to cope - by the same token Smyrna became Izmir.

The city was also called Stambul / Stamboul etc. - note that n and m are also close neighbours - and just try saying 'stampul' to yourself and you'll see why the softer non-plosive 'b' sound would emerge.

The Eis tin Poli derivation falls down on all counts, frankly.

The Turks actually kept using the name Konstantiniyye until the 20th century - not Stanbul or Istanbul, so a Byzantine-era theory for Istanbul is ridiculous, because the Turks didn't use the name Istanbul in the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700s and the 1800s. I seriously doubt the Turks suddenly remembered the Eis tin Poli story of 1453 in the 19th century, when Stambul/Stanbul/Istanbul first appeared.

I think the real story, as I mentioned above, is far less complicated and mythical:

(I)stanbul is a direct Turkish abbreviation of the long and inconvenient name Con stan tino pol is DragutBarbarossa 21:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Not quite, there are many sources confirming the εις την πόλιν position. You can find many by non-Greek authors on Google Books for example. I have never seen one claiming otherwise.--Noli turbare circulos meos 22:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, we've all discussed this a lot, many times.

1. Whether you personally find the derivation plausible is of absolutely no importance (WP:V, WP:OR).
2. The derivation from "is tin polin" is linguistically much easier than that from "Konstantinoupoli"
3. Nobody has claimed the name was invented in 1453, and certainly not by finger-pointing Greeks guiding the invading army. The Turks and Arabs had this name for the city centuries before that.
4. "(I)stanbul" is attested in writing since the 10th century, side by side with "Kostantiniyye", and was used without interruption in Ottoman Turkish of all ages.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

For the record, the name Istanbul was used by Turks long before the twentieth century. What DragutBarbarossa must be referring to was the official renaming of the city.--Noli turbare circulos meos 22:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Eis tin poli story is a true one as phonetic expressly suggests the natural evolution; istinpoli - istinbol etc. likewise Thessaloniki -saloniki-selanik went through a similar change. First and foremost, the Ottoman Empire kept using the name "Constantinople" together with other names of the city (Asitane, Konstantiniyye etc.). Mehmet the Conqueror declared himself as the emperor of Rums (Easter Romans including Greeks of course!). It was only after the foundation of the Republic that the name Constantinople was abandonned and Istanbul became the only official name of the city. I wonder why we should have a problem with that today, after almost 600 years. My ancestors -the Ottomans- did not have any problem with that! We say Istanbul, some others say Constantinople and some other's history could have recorded another name for the city. So please lets not be ridiculous by claiming conspiracy theories about this (invention of patriarch etc). --Z yTalk 22:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:V tells us, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth", and this is a classic case of the two conflicting with each other. What is verifiable is the "eis tin poli" etymology, so that's what we put here. The truth on the other hand, is what DragutBarbossa said: "eis tin poli" is a folk etymology, and the actual etymology of İstanbul is from Stamboul, which in turn comes from Konstantinopolis. But until someone digs up a reliable source showing this (blindingly obvious) fact, we have to go with what the sources we have say. Of course it's unfortunate that we are presenting a folk etymology as fact, but for now, it's the only way to avoid original research. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 20:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

εις την πόλιν is perfectly valid as it is not an isolated case. Where İstanbul is to the city, İznik is Eis Nikea, İzmir is Eis Symrna and İzmit is Eis Media from Nicomedia. One might argue that the eis part is a purely Turkish addition and that the name İstanbul comes from ten polin (the city) but the amount and type of change required to get from Konstantinopolis to İstanbul, mainly dropping two sylables right in the middle the middle; "tin-o", seems to make that theory rather far fetched.

Nickname

An anonymous user (85.105.110.8) has been adding a supposed nickname, "marmara queen", to the infobox. I really think it's unnecessary, and it looks bad. What do you think? If we were to add nicknames, we should do it like [new york city] did. anyhow, i want to discuss before i remove it. --Ademkader (talk) 14:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

External link proposal

Hello, I would like to propose this external link about the city of Istanbul. What do you think?

http://www.jordibusque.com/Index/Stories/Istanbul/Istanbul_01.html

Please, let me know your oppinion. Thanks! Panex (talk) 21:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to add the link. I people desagrees lets talk about. Thanks.Panex (talk) 09:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted a buch of external links, including this one, because things were getting out of hand in the External links section. This is an encyclopedia, not Wikitravel. While the Jordi Busque "photographic essay" is tasteful, it does not add "encyclopedic value", and it is hard to justify (on the basis of taste?) that that link should be allowed to stay while links to other collections of photographs should go.  --Lambiam 15:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Names Section

I love how they downplay the fact that Constantinople is the true name of the city by adding all of the "former names". But I guess history is written by the victors (or invaders in this case). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.210.51.222 (talk) 12:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you also believe that the true name of New York City is Nieuw Amsterdam, that of London Kaerlud, that of Regensburg Radasbona, that of Kerkyra Coryphae, and so on?  --Lambiam 23:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Why its climate is not classified as mediterranean?

By the weather averages for Istanbul, it's obvious that its climate is a typical mediterranean. The summers are probably hot enough, according to the weather data. Even the absolute minimum temperatures are in the boundaries where many mediterranean plants can be grown. Moderate-continental climates are much harsher than Istanbul's climate, and you can hardly grow any palmtrees in moderate-continental climate, but you can see them many in Istanbul...Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.86.110.10 (talk) 07:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done I've changed this. It is amazing that the classification has remained unchallenged until now since it was introduced as "temperate-continental" on August 8, 2005.  --Lambiam 11:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Population and Density

New stats from the TUIK (Turkish Statistics Foundations) put population of Istanbul at 12,573,836 with a population density of 2,420/km². Shall we wait for the world gazetteer to update their stats or go ahead? note that we will also have to change List of cities by population. --Ademkader (talk) 23:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It was remarked by User:Polaron that the number 12,573,836 is for the il (province), and not the city. Apparently the latter number should be 11,174,257, although the ref given does not work for me. The number 2,420/km² is presumably for an area much larger than the city's 1538.77 km².  --Lambiam 03:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source for the 1 538,77 km² figure? Adding the areas for the 27 'city-districts' gives a total of 1 822 km², according to Statoids. The total population of the 27 districts is 11 372 613, of which 10 757 327 is urban according to this page. --Pjred (talk) 00:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

This is possibly an old figure from when several of the current metropolitan districts had not yet been urbanized. The website of the municipality gives the figure of 1,830.92 km²,[1] closely corresponding to what you calculated. I've updated the infobox.  --Lambiam 12:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thumb picture

We seriously need a better picture instead of the Hagia Sophia, since HS is in Istanbul, OK, but Istanbul is a huge city with thousands of landmarks, and excluding them is completely unjust. Nor it is defining the center of Istanbul. I would, as discussed before, go for that world famous artistic skyline at dusk or dawn, does anyone have a good picture of it? --Eae1983 (talk) 22:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Some Istanbul skylines with Hagia Sophia
• 
• 
• 

Wow... Beautiful... Let's put one of them then... How could we do that? --Eae1983 (talk) 23:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, Since there is no answer, I am doing it. --Eae1983 (talk) 08:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC) Done!!

I hope you like it, that pic is quite more artistic.. Now I have to go to the Kanyon, but you are always free to comment!! --Eae1983 (talk) 08:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

OOOOohhhh that new pic is wonderful!!! Now can we LOCK this article once and for all?? --Eae1983 (talk) 12:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is the best one that I have, at dusk:

• Istanbul at dusk with Hagia Sophia
• 

Monsieurdl ^{mon talk-mon contribs} 18:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Monsieur, come on, there is no Hagia Sophia in that picture, (contrary to what the name "Istanbul at dusk with Hagia Sophia" would suggest.

Also, I guess it is "too Eminönü".. (I guess you may have put a wrong one)

The one now is the best I have seen, nice weather, Palace + Baslica + Church + Bosphorus + Commuter Ferries (Vapur)... I am kinda cold now of my orientalistic "dusk or dawn" ideas, but I am open for any great looking picture.

Cheers! --Eae1983 (talk) 23:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

External Link

Can we add this (or this one) link? It shows the traffic from live cameras. I know that ibb.gov.tr is added but this direct link can be more helpfull(?). --Ilhanli (talk) 12:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Vapurlar

Where are the pictures of the "famous commuter ferries", I really think we need to put something graphic in about that, since one can see those ships in almost half of the pictures featured in the article.

Cheers!--Eae1983 (talk) 17:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Districts

The side panel says there are 25 districts but the actual article says that there are 31? Anyone know the correct number or a reason why they are different?

TheArtOfTheWarrior (talk) 04:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

It is the difference between the districts of Istanbul Province, and those that constitute the City of Istanbul. I've edited the text to make the distinction clear. I've also changed 31 to 32 because both the article Istanbul Province and Category:Districts of Istanbul give 31 districts. (When counting the pages in that category, do not count the page Greater Istanbul which is not a district, and do not double-count Adalar = Princes' Islands.) I've also changed 25 into 27.

The 32−27 = 5 outer districts of the Province that are not part of the City are Büyükçekmece, Çatalca, Silivri, Sultanbeyli (an enclave of formerly rural terrain within the City), and Şile.  --Lambiam 13:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Nominate for GA or FA again?

Maybe after some copyediting the article should again be listed for GA? It has significantly been improved, and I made the Hungarian article FA on the basis of the English article. I had to search for some more references that could also be put here to expand the number of references (in the HUwiki article there are over a hundred refs). What do you think? --Timish ¤ Gül Bahçesi 10:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

For the issues raised in the previous GA review, see Talk:Istanbul/Archive 3#GA Review. I think the present article is too long; perhaps we should spinout some sections into separate articles.  --Lambiam 22:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

How about a separate article entitled Art and Architecture of Istanbul (more detailed than Architecture of London, but as an example), or something similarly titled? That way, it could combine Cityscape and parts of Life in the City, which would help to reduce the bulk of the article. What do you think? Monsieurdl ^{mon talk-mon contribs} 18:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Formally, article length is not among the GA criteria but only among the FA criteria, but nevertheless it will also be an issue of criticism in GA reviews. Also for the normal reader, the article is too long and has too much detail about things they are not likely to be interested in. I think we should attempt to bring the article back from its current 132,000 bytes or so to about half, say 70,000. Your proposals are good and will make a dent, but the resulting article will still be well above 100,000 bytes. Other sections that could be spun out are Religion (way too long), Economy, Transportation, Recreation, and Education. I've compiled an overview of the byte counts of the sections (where the determination what a section is is just as naive as for the [edit] buttons).  --Lambiam 13:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

 132040 Main
           2934 Names
          12799 History
           5496 Geography
                   3093 Climate
                   1816 Geology
          20845 Cityscape
                  16524 Architecture
                           2501 Ancient Greek and Roman monuments
                           8131 Byzantine monuments
                           5300 Ottoman monuments
                   4307 Urbanism
           2898 Administration
                    998 Organization
                   1881 Districts
          19398 Demographics
                  14907 Religion
                   1449 Crime
          10335 Economy
                   2134 Financial Sector
                   1637 Industry
                   2613 Tourism
          15105 Infrastructure
                   1780 Health and medicine
                   5382 Utilities
                   7924 Transportation
                            731 By Air
                           2323 By Rail
                            806 By Road
                           3288 By Sea
                            674 Public
          16789 Life in the city
                   5159 Art & Culture
                   1347 Media
                   9024 Recreation
                            188 Shopping
                           5772 Bars, Cafés and Restaurants
                           1504 Clubs
           7497 Education
                   1368 Universities
                   5483 High Schools
                    163 Libraries
           4926 Sports
           3291 Town twinning
            481 Related lists
            231 See also
             27 Notes
           4053 External links

I would be glad to get started with the dent ant work on the creation of the Architecture in Istanbul article, for combining Art and Architecture would be supremely difficult- I want to maintain the same format as other cities. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk-mon contribs} 20:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

First edit: Architecture of Istanbul, 11K off

I created the article, removed the entire text to that article, and added certain items that are the heart and soul of Istanbul. It is merely a start, because there is just so much within the city that the branched article will need to be beefed up. As for this article, the flow of the summarized section is fractured, and it needs to be fixed somewhat. What I did was merely a start- 11k of it is now pared off. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk-mon contribs} 22:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Monsieur, please know that I am ready to help you in every possible way for this. Contact me as you wish.

--Eae1983 (talk) 23:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Great! I would love to see some help. The idea in the Architecture section is to create a subsection for each of the main structures of Istanbul, which I pretty much have here:

• Hagia Sophia
• Suleymaniye Mosque
• Galata Tower
• Dolmabahce Palace
• Topkapi Palace
• Leander's Tower
• The Grand Bazaar (missing, should be added)

I could possibly add Sultanahmet Mosque, but I'm afraid it might be too much. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk-mon contribs} 00:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok very well, I'll attack all these during the course of this week! :))

--Eae1983 (talk) 23:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yalılar

Can I know why did the picture showing the typical Yalıs of istanbul has been removed?

Cheers!

--Eae1983 (talk) 22:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Article size no longer an issue

The article is now below 100K (details have been channeled to related main articles) so size is no longer an issue for resuming the bid for Featured Article status. Best regards. 151.57.206.77 (talk) 00:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Good Article Re-Submission

I believe we can now re-submit the article's application for Good Article status. I cleaned and tuned every single nut and bolt inside the engine. Better than this? I don't think so. 151.57.184.245 (talk) 14:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The article is looking a lot better in terms of the balance of content, but I think it will fail on the lack of references. The following sections have either a lack of or no references at all:

• Architecture
• Urbanism
• Administration
• Religion
• Life in the city
• Education
• Sports

Should be aiming for one reference per paragraph to be safe. Also on the issue of pictures, I think there are too many in the Religion and Economy sections and third panaroma in the History sections is poor in terms of quality. The article really is looking better, but I'm just trying to pre-empt what a GA reviewer would say. Thanks, --A.Garnet (talk) 17:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added some references, I hope others will try and do the same. --A.Garnet (talk) 20:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)