Talk:Body painting

overt commercialism?

Why are there so many Playboy-type pictures on this page. The cover of these magazines are not so ground-breaking. Can we please have something less commercial? Dandelion1 01:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree the majority of the images are of a "pin up" or "softcore" nature. I don't think ground-brakingness is key to the validity of the entry, however. Are there other or better photos available on Wikipedia for this entry? I'd say keep the Danni Ashe image, as it is less commercial than the Playboy images, if one of the two has to go. Glowimperial 18:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Avengerscap 10:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)I don't know what the English fascination with breasts is, and these images should be blocked since anyone of any age can view them. At least show images of fully nude men as well if you want to be at least taken as a serious, instead of pathetic, pervert. The fact that there is nothing mentioned about Celtic war paint, however, reveals a further nasty bias of the Englishman who driveled up this article.Avengerscap 10:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT censored for minors, so nothing against breasts here. But I agree that the article could do with a bit more equality. I have lots of pictures of bodypainted men (almost as much as I do of bodypainted women), so maybe I could upload some. JIP | Talk 14:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Link rather than embed?

Because of the (painted) nudity, for this article I would suggest that the image of Danni Ashe should be linked rather than embedded in accord with this tentative Wikipedia guideline: "it may be preferable not to embed possibly offensive images in articles, but rather use a [[media:image name]] link with an appropriate warning. On the other hand, if the page title already tells the reader what to expect (e.g. Erotic art in Pompeii), such a warning may be unnecessary." Objections? --Flex 21:33, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Would it perhaps make more sense to add the image to the Danni Ashe page and then only link to that? Michael L. Kaufman 14:23, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Well, the image was recently removed from that page for the same reason as above. (See Talk:Danni Ashe.) I made the change on this article. We'll see how things go. --Flex 15:17, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

• WP:NOT censored for the protection of minors. This image is needed to illustrate the section. See the breasts article--God_of War 06:12, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Asphyxiation by bodypaint

The current article states that completely covering someone in bodypaint will not cause them to asphyxiate due to obstruction of the pores. It is possible that this is true for modern noncomedogenic paints, but I am relatively certain that circus performers and other paint-clad artists (the Tin man in The Wizard of Oz (film) for example) typically leave a half-dollar sized area unpainted to prevent this. Can anyone (i.e. someone with experience in bodypainting) confirm this one way or another?

• The Mythbusters tested this myth and proved it false. Dwp49423 00:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I find this disturbing. What if it had been true? Would it have counted as killing? JIP | Talk 09:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • It wasn't true, so we may never know what it may have counted as... Ilikefood (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of Overt Commercialism

This is not your personal advertisement space. Attempting to funnel visitors to this article into visiting an article about your company that was created as an obvious advertisement violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. --Khisanth 22:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

DVNC-Arts

User:Dvnc-arts keeps putting links to his own site, and a picture that seems to be incompatible with the Wikipedia image submission policy (it has copyright information on the image itself) into the article. What should be done about this? JIP | Talk 07:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I find the lack of resources disturbing

I was wondering why there are no further body painting resources (i.e brands of body paints, different kinds of body paint.. etc)

218.111.29.174 13:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Whole-body painting

I discovered that Wikipedia had an article about whole-body painting, which is exactly similar to the body painting described here, except that the resulting artwork is on an external canvas and not directly on the model's body. This should perhaps be merged into this article. However, I think the terms are too similar and do not accurately reflect the distinction, as both kinds of painting are done on whole bodies, the only difference is what is presented as the final artwork. JIP | Talk 07:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

I recently broke my photographing frequency record at a body painting show in Sello: 293 pictures in 12 hours' time, and that's only the pictures I kept. There were three female models, two in their underwear, the other topless. Should I upload pictures, assuming I get the models' permission? JIP | Talk 22:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

If the pictures are encyclopedic and will contribute to the quality of Wikipedia, go for it! :-) Ilikefood (talk) 22:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

293 in 12hrs? Pathetic. I can crank twice that out in a day if I have a big enough memory card :p -mattbuck (Talk) 22:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, during the last World Bodypainting Festival, I took almost 2000 pictures over four and a half days' time. This year I plan on taking at least as many, because this time I have a Zen Vision W with me, which can store five times as many pictures, so I don't have to worry about conserving storage space. JIP | Talk 19:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• whistles* -mattbuck (Talk) 19:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Famous people with facepaint

I would love to alphabetise the "Famous people with facepaint" subsection, but unfortunately it mixes real names, stage names, and names of teams or bands. Is there any way to sort this out? JIP | Talk 20:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Maximum Ride

Hey, if the books are so popular, how come no ones getting the word that they are making a new movie? I's kinda silly. If no one hears about the movie, no one will watch it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.232.83 (talk) 11:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

What the heck does this have to do with body painting? JIP | Talk 18:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Lead Picture

I'd rather like to get a good lead picture which doesn't contain nudity. While wiki is not censored, I'd say that generally there is no need to have nudity right at the top of the page. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Does female toplessness count as nudity? If so, then we have very few pictures available in the article that would both present body painting and avoid nudity. The closest thing is maybe the men with the letters on their chests, which doesn't really show the full extent of body painting. JIP | Talk 04:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you have a point there. I'd personally say it does, although I admit to finding female nudity generally more pleasing than male nudity. There are a few we could use, if edited a bit I guess. I made a gallery of generally possibly useful ones, for this page in general.

• 
  not a great image
• 
  technically not nudity, but maybe not quite arty enough
• doesn't qualify, but a fun image anyway.
  doesn't qualify, but a fun image anyway.
• 
• 
• 
  Almost perfect, but would need some cropping
• 
  not really arty
• 
• 
• 
• 

Damn people desirous of showing off their painted genitalia :p -mattbuck (Talk) 10:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I do have many more pictures of bodypainted men, and I think I have a few of bodypainted women with their breasts covered as well. I could upload them if needed, but I would have to ask the artists' permission for publication first. JIP | Talk 17:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Grammar/structure

I HATE this sentence, but I have no idea how to change it because I don't understand what it means. Is it an "art" thing or a "non-native English speaker" thing?

"Body art today evolves to the works more directed towards personal mythologies, as Jana Sterbak, Rebecca Horn, Youri Messen-Jaschin or Javier Perez."

Can someone help? 208.96.196.130 (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a wild guess. "Body art today has evolved into the direction of works more directed towards personal mythologies, such as those of Jana Sterbak, Rebecca Morn, Youri Messen-Jaschin or Javier Perez." I'd bet on the "non-native English speaker" thing. I have often had to rewrite English sentences written by other Finns, who follow the Finnish sentence structure, which is very different from the English one. JIP | Talk 19:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Further: "More subdued form of face paints for everyday occasions evolve into the cosmetics we know today."

Is this true? I know that eye shadow was originally used in Egypt with the belief that it protected from eye disease. The coloration of lips has been associated with making them resemble vaginal lips (consider the gibbons whose bottoms become inflamed during periods of fertility). Does anyone have a citation for the supposition that the daily attempt to enhance appearance is descended from ritual body painting?TychaBrahe (talk) 15:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

overt commercialism?

Why are there so many Playboy-type pictures on this page. The cover of these magazines are not so ground-breaking. Can we please have something less commercial? Dandelion1 01:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree the majority of the images are of a "pin up" or "softcore" nature. I don't think ground-brakingness is key to the validity of the entry, however. Are there other or better photos available on Wikipedia for this entry? I'd say keep the Danni Ashe image, as it is less commercial than the Playboy images, if one of the two has to go. Glowimperial 18:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Avengerscap 10:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)I don't know what the English fascination with breasts is, and these images should be blocked since anyone of any age can view them. At least show images of fully nude men as well if you want to be at least taken as a serious, instead of pathetic, pervert. The fact that there is nothing mentioned about Celtic war paint, however, reveals a further nasty bias of the Englishman who driveled up this article.Avengerscap 10:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT censored for minors, so nothing against breasts here. But I agree that the article could do with a bit more equality. I have lots of pictures of bodypainted men (almost as much as I do of bodypainted women), so maybe I could upload some. JIP | Talk 14:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Link rather than embed?

Because of the (painted) nudity, for this article I would suggest that the image of Danni Ashe should be linked rather than embedded in accord with this tentative Wikipedia guideline: "it may be preferable not to embed possibly offensive images in articles, but rather use a [[media:image name]] link with an appropriate warning. On the other hand, if the page title already tells the reader what to expect (e.g. Erotic art in Pompeii), such a warning may be unnecessary." Objections? --Flex 21:33, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Would it perhaps make more sense to add the image to the Danni Ashe page and then only link to that? Michael L. Kaufman 14:23, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Well, the image was recently removed from that page for the same reason as above. (See Talk:Danni Ashe.) I made the change on this article. We'll see how things go. --Flex 15:17, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

• WP:NOT censored for the protection of minors. This image is needed to illustrate the section. See the breasts article--God_of War 06:12, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Asphyxiation by bodypaint

The current article states that completely covering someone in bodypaint will not cause them to asphyxiate due to obstruction of the pores. It is possible that this is true for modern noncomedogenic paints, but I am relatively certain that circus performers and other paint-clad artists (the Tin man in The Wizard of Oz (film) for example) typically leave a half-dollar sized area unpainted to prevent this. Can anyone (i.e. someone with experience in bodypainting) confirm this one way or another?

• The Mythbusters tested this myth and proved it false. Dwp49423 00:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I find this disturbing. What if it had been true? Would it have counted as killing? JIP | Talk 09:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • It wasn't true, so we may never know what it may have counted as... Ilikefood (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of Overt Commercialism

This is not your personal advertisement space. Attempting to funnel visitors to this article into visiting an article about your company that was created as an obvious advertisement violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. --Khisanth 22:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

DVNC-Arts

User:Dvnc-arts keeps putting links to his own site, and a picture that seems to be incompatible with the Wikipedia image submission policy (it has copyright information on the image itself) into the article. What should be done about this? JIP | Talk 07:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I find the lack of resources disturbing

I was wondering why there are no further body painting resources (i.e brands of body paints, different kinds of body paint.. etc)

218.111.29.174 13:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Whole-body painting

I discovered that Wikipedia had an article about whole-body painting, which is exactly similar to the body painting described here, except that the resulting artwork is on an external canvas and not directly on the model's body. This should perhaps be merged into this article. However, I think the terms are too similar and do not accurately reflect the distinction, as both kinds of painting are done on whole bodies, the only difference is what is presented as the final artwork. JIP | Talk 07:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

I recently broke my photographing frequency record at a body painting show in Sello: 293 pictures in 12 hours' time, and that's only the pictures I kept. There were three female models, two in their underwear, the other topless. Should I upload pictures, assuming I get the models' permission? JIP | Talk 22:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

If the pictures are encyclopedic and will contribute to the quality of Wikipedia, go for it! :-) Ilikefood (talk) 22:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

293 in 12hrs? Pathetic. I can crank twice that out in a day if I have a big enough memory card :p -mattbuck (Talk) 22:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, during the last World Bodypainting Festival, I took almost 2000 pictures over four and a half days' time. This year I plan on taking at least as many, because this time I have a Zen Vision W with me, which can store five times as many pictures, so I don't have to worry about conserving storage space. JIP | Talk 19:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• whistles* -mattbuck (Talk) 19:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Famous people with facepaint

I would love to alphabetise the "Famous people with facepaint" subsection, but unfortunately it mixes real names, stage names, and names of teams or bands. Is there any way to sort this out? JIP | Talk 20:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Maximum Ride

Hey, if the books are so popular, how come no ones getting the word that they are making a new movie? I's kinda silly. If no one hears about the movie, no one will watch it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.232.83 (talk) 11:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

What the heck does this have to do with body painting? JIP | Talk 18:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Lead Picture

I'd rather like to get a good lead picture which doesn't contain nudity. While wiki is not censored, I'd say that generally there is no need to have nudity right at the top of the page. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Does female toplessness count as nudity? If so, then we have very few pictures available in the article that would both present body painting and avoid nudity. The closest thing is maybe the men with the letters on their chests, which doesn't really show the full extent of body painting. JIP | Talk 04:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you have a point there. I'd personally say it does, although I admit to finding female nudity generally more pleasing than male nudity. There are a few we could use, if edited a bit I guess. I made a gallery of generally possibly useful ones, for this page in general.

• 
  not a great image
• 
  technically not nudity, but maybe not quite arty enough
• doesn't qualify, but a fun image anyway.
  doesn't qualify, but a fun image anyway.
• 
• 
• 
  Almost perfect, but would need some cropping
• 
  not really arty
• 
• 
• 
• 

Damn people desirous of showing off their painted genitalia :p -mattbuck (Talk) 10:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I do have many more pictures of bodypainted men, and I think I have a few of bodypainted women with their breasts covered as well. I could upload them if needed, but I would have to ask the artists' permission for publication first. JIP | Talk 17:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Grammar/structure

I HATE this sentence, but I have no idea how to change it because I don't understand what it means. Is it an "art" thing or a "non-native English speaker" thing?

"Body art today evolves to the works more directed towards personal mythologies, as Jana Sterbak, Rebecca Horn, Youri Messen-Jaschin or Javier Perez."

Can someone help? 208.96.196.130 (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a wild guess. "Body art today has evolved into the direction of works more directed towards personal mythologies, such as those of Jana Sterbak, Rebecca Morn, Youri Messen-Jaschin or Javier Perez." I'd bet on the "non-native English speaker" thing. I have often had to rewrite English sentences written by other Finns, who follow the Finnish sentence structure, which is very different from the English one. JIP | Talk 19:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Further: "More subdued form of face paints for everyday occasions evolve into the cosmetics we know today."

Is this true? I know that eye shadow was originally used in Egypt with the belief that it protected from eye disease. The coloration of lips has been associated with making them resemble vaginal lips (consider the gibbons whose bottoms become inflamed during periods of fertility). Does anyone have a citation for the supposition that the daily attempt to enhance appearance is descended from ritual body painting?TychaBrahe (talk) 15:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

overt commercialism?

Why are there so many Playboy-type pictures on this page. The cover of these magazines are not so ground-breaking. Can we please have something less commercial? Dandelion1 01:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree the majority of the images are of a "pin up" or "softcore" nature. I don't think ground-brakingness is key to the validity of the entry, however. Are there other or better photos available on Wikipedia for this entry? I'd say keep the Danni Ashe image, as it is less commercial than the Playboy images, if one of the two has to go. Glowimperial 18:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Avengerscap 10:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)I don't know what the English fascination with breasts is, and these images should be blocked since anyone of any age can view them. At least show images of fully nude men as well if you want to be at least taken as a serious, instead of pathetic, pervert. The fact that there is nothing mentioned about Celtic war paint, however, reveals a further nasty bias of the Englishman who driveled up this article.Avengerscap 10:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT censored for minors, so nothing against breasts here. But I agree that the article could do with a bit more equality. I have lots of pictures of bodypainted men (almost as much as I do of bodypainted women), so maybe I could upload some. JIP | Talk 14:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Link rather than embed?

Because of the (painted) nudity, for this article I would suggest that the image of Danni Ashe should be linked rather than embedded in accord with this tentative Wikipedia guideline: "it may be preferable not to embed possibly offensive images in articles, but rather use a [[media:image name]] link with an appropriate warning. On the other hand, if the page title already tells the reader what to expect (e.g. Erotic art in Pompeii), such a warning may be unnecessary." Objections? --Flex 21:33, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Would it perhaps make more sense to add the image to the Danni Ashe page and then only link to that? Michael L. Kaufman 14:23, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Well, the image was recently removed from that page for the same reason as above. (See Talk:Danni Ashe.) I made the change on this article. We'll see how things go. --Flex 15:17, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

• WP:NOT censored for the protection of minors. This image is needed to illustrate the section. See the breasts article--God_of War 06:12, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Asphyxiation by bodypaint

The current article states that completely covering someone in bodypaint will not cause them to asphyxiate due to obstruction of the pores. It is possible that this is true for modern noncomedogenic paints, but I am relatively certain that circus performers and other paint-clad artists (the Tin man in The Wizard of Oz (film) for example) typically leave a half-dollar sized area unpainted to prevent this. Can anyone (i.e. someone with experience in bodypainting) confirm this one way or another?

• The Mythbusters tested this myth and proved it false. Dwp49423 00:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
  • I find this disturbing. What if it had been true? Would it have counted as killing? JIP | Talk 09:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • It wasn't true, so we may never know what it may have counted as... Ilikefood (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of Overt Commercialism

This is not your personal advertisement space. Attempting to funnel visitors to this article into visiting an article about your company that was created as an obvious advertisement violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. --Khisanth 22:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

DVNC-Arts

User:Dvnc-arts keeps putting links to his own site, and a picture that seems to be incompatible with the Wikipedia image submission policy (it has copyright information on the image itself) into the article. What should be done about this? JIP | Talk 07:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I find the lack of resources disturbing

I was wondering why there are no further body painting resources (i.e brands of body paints, different kinds of body paint.. etc)

218.111.29.174 13:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Whole-body painting

I discovered that Wikipedia had an article about whole-body painting, which is exactly similar to the body painting described here, except that the resulting artwork is on an external canvas and not directly on the model's body. This should perhaps be merged into this article. However, I think the terms are too similar and do not accurately reflect the distinction, as both kinds of painting are done on whole bodies, the only difference is what is presented as the final artwork. JIP | Talk 07:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

I recently broke my photographing frequency record at a body painting show in Sello: 293 pictures in 12 hours' time, and that's only the pictures I kept. There were three female models, two in their underwear, the other topless. Should I upload pictures, assuming I get the models' permission? JIP | Talk 22:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

If the pictures are encyclopedic and will contribute to the quality of Wikipedia, go for it! :-) Ilikefood (talk) 22:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

293 in 12hrs? Pathetic. I can crank twice that out in a day if I have a big enough memory card :p -mattbuck (Talk) 22:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, during the last World Bodypainting Festival, I took almost 2000 pictures over four and a half days' time. This year I plan on taking at least as many, because this time I have a Zen Vision W with me, which can store five times as many pictures, so I don't have to worry about conserving storage space. JIP | Talk 19:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• whistles* -mattbuck (Talk) 19:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Famous people with facepaint

I would love to alphabetise the "Famous people with facepaint" subsection, but unfortunately it mixes real names, stage names, and names of teams or bands. Is there any way to sort this out? JIP | Talk 20:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Maximum Ride

Hey, if the books are so popular, how come no ones getting the word that they are making a new movie? I's kinda silly. If no one hears about the movie, no one will watch it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.232.83 (talk) 11:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

What the heck does this have to do with body painting? JIP | Talk 18:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Lead Picture

I'd rather like to get a good lead picture which doesn't contain nudity. While wiki is not censored, I'd say that generally there is no need to have nudity right at the top of the page. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Does female toplessness count as nudity? If so, then we have very few pictures available in the article that would both present body painting and avoid nudity. The closest thing is maybe the men with the letters on their chests, which doesn't really show the full extent of body painting. JIP | Talk 04:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you have a point there. I'd personally say it does, although I admit to finding female nudity generally more pleasing than male nudity. There are a few we could use, if edited a bit I guess. I made a gallery of generally possibly useful ones, for this page in general.

• 
  not a great image
• 
  technically not nudity, but maybe not quite arty enough
• doesn't qualify, but a fun image anyway.
  doesn't qualify, but a fun image anyway.
• 
• 
• 
  Almost perfect, but would need some cropping
• 
  not really arty
• 
• 
• 
• 

Damn people desirous of showing off their painted genitalia :p -mattbuck (Talk) 10:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I do have many more pictures of bodypainted men, and I think I have a few of bodypainted women with their breasts covered as well. I could upload them if needed, but I would have to ask the artists' permission for publication first. JIP | Talk 17:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Grammar/structure

I HATE this sentence, but I have no idea how to change it because I don't understand what it means. Is it an "art" thing or a "non-native English speaker" thing?

"Body art today evolves to the works more directed towards personal mythologies, as Jana Sterbak, Rebecca Horn, Youri Messen-Jaschin or Javier Perez."

Can someone help? 208.96.196.130 (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a wild guess. "Body art today has evolved into the direction of works more directed towards personal mythologies, such as those of Jana Sterbak, Rebecca Morn, Youri Messen-Jaschin or Javier Perez." I'd bet on the "non-native English speaker" thing. I have often had to rewrite English sentences written by other Finns, who follow the Finnish sentence structure, which is very different from the English one. JIP | Talk 19:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Further: "More subdued form of face paints for everyday occasions evolve into the cosmetics we know today."

Is this true? I know that eye shadow was originally used in Egypt with the belief that it protected from eye disease. The coloration of lips has been associated with making them resemble vaginal lips (consider the gibbons whose bottoms become inflamed during periods of fertility). Does anyone have a citation for the supposition that the daily attempt to enhance appearance is descended from ritual body painting?TychaBrahe (talk) 15:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Body painting as an artform verses the commercialism depicted here

Since 1979, I have been working with metalic makeup to produce the effect of having a silver, copper, or gold human statue come alive in front of my camera. I've been published world wide and am the most published metalic MUA/photographer in the world.

I find it troubling that none of the work accomplished by pioneers such as Jon Stevens and myself -- unless I missed that -- are even mentioned here. We were the ones who devoted more time to the artistic efforts. Indeed, we created human statues and sculptures.

I devoted much of my time and will continue to devote time to my work until I die. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redwar2006 (talk • contribs) 06:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)