Talk:Prince Louis of Battenberg

As for his illegitimate daughter, the alleged reliability of that statement differs much between this article and Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma. --Jao 16:34, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Rewrote article to correct errors and incorporate additional info. But much should go in articles on his parents, sibs and the Battenberg/Mountbatten family.Lethiere 14:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Titles

   * His Illustrious Highness Count Louis of Battenberg
   * His Serene Highness Prince Louis of Battenberg
   * Louis Mountbatten
   * (2nd) Marquess of Milford Haven

Afaik there was no previous marquisate of Milford Haven so it's not the second creation and he was the first holder of the title. Either way (2nd) makes no sense.Alci12 17:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, this was wrong. I'm wondering if the page should really be here. For most of his life he was Prince Louis of Battenberg, and he achieved his greatest significance - as First Sea Lord - under this name. john k 17:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

It's one of those cases where neither option is satisfactory. While the 'historians' think 'Louis of Battenberg' it means nothing to anyone else. Considering that he 'renounced' his foreign titles perhaps this is the right place though I'm perfectly happy to put this to talk_peerage etc to find a consensus. I had left the Louis Mountbatten in, as I assume someone thought they were being very correct as there was a 72hr gap between his renouncing the titles and getting his peerage. I'm not sure it really matters tbh but someone may object.Alci12 18:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

That's sort of the way I feel — it would make me feel slightly awkward putting it under a title he specifically renounced. (As for the 72 hour gap, during those 72 hours he was known as the slightly more impressive-sounding "Admiral The Rt Hon. Sir Louis Mountbatten, GCB, GCVO, KCMG".) Proteus (Talk) 07:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

True though his PC was 1921 iirc so surely no Rt Hon.Alci12 10:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

He was appointed in November 1914, presumably as compensation for being forced to resign as First Sea Lord. You're probably thinking of his promotion to Admiral of the Fleet, which was indeed in 1921, just before his death. Proteus (Talk) 11:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

No doubt as I wasn't amending the article I didn't check the details. If you have his final post noms they aren't in the article atm.Alci12 09:34, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No move (although I don't see "Prince Louis of Battenberg" really discussed as a plausible alternative; the point of contention was apparently von). Duja► 10:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

---

For most of his life he was Prince Louis of Battenberg, and he achieved his greatest significance - as First Sea Lord - under this name. --Toddy1 04:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Don't you mean Prince Louis of Battenberg? Charles 04:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It is perfectly normal for members of the German aristocracy to have either von or zu' at start of their family name. His real family name was von Battenberg.--Toddy1 17:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You're speaking to someone with "von" in his family name. Charles 19:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

We us English not German on the English wikipedia. Hence his wife is Princess Victoria of Hesse and by Rhine not Prinzessin Viktoria von Hessen und bei Rhein. DrKiernan 17:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course, it's also a mixture as in German he would be Ludwig von Battenberg. DrKiernan 17:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Two key points:

(1) Louis von Battenberg was a victim of racism. He lost his job as First Sea Lord because he was German. Obscuring the point that he had a blatantly German name is inappropriate.

(2) People in England are familiar with German names like von Moltke, von Hindenburg, and von Trapp. These names are never written of Moltke, etc. The convention in English with surnames beginning with von is that the correct form is to include the von and that omitting the von altogether is a convenient shorthand.--Toddy1 18:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Some key points:

(1) Battenberg is a place and a title was created for it. For Hindenburg and Trapp, there were no titles and nothing to be "of".

(2) The use of the title Prince(ss) of Battenberg is not obscuring a blatantly German name. Obviously Battenberg is blatantly German if it has to be anglicized to Mountbatten.

(3) There are people like me who speak English and are not from nor live in England. Also, Battenberg is not a surname, it is a titular designation. Also, omitting the "von" is not a convenient shorthand. One never properly speaks of "von Hindenburg" or "von Trapp", but of "Hindenburg", etc. Charles 19:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Charles Are you Austrian? An Austrian I used to work with told me that they had abolished all the vons and zus in Austria. In Germany they have not. So aristocratic German military officers retain their correct names (even those in the British Army). To suggest that such a person was not a 'von' was recognised as insulting.--Toddy1 21:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

My family is German but that does not matter or factor into this discussion. Also, Prince Louis dropped the use of the princely title before Austria abolished all titles of nobility and prepositions, so I don't know how that equates into the argument of being insulting. Indeed, it would be insulting to be told one is not of sufficient rank or status to translate their preposition, that it is only a name and nothing more, which is essentially what you are saying about Prince Louis. Charles 22:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't like the "von" bit. DrKiernan 06:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose As above, and per my comment copied over from WP:RM. Charles 16:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose In the English-language literature, he is not known as "Prince Louis von Battenberg". Noel S McFerran 14:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment about the discussion and to the closer: I think it was originally requested as "von", but the request was later changed to "of", and several debaters seem to have missed this, continuing to debate on the "von" vs "of" issue. As agreeing I am about "von" being the wrong place, I wouldn't have anything against an immediate re-request for "Prince Louis of Battenberg". -- Jao 10:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Like I tried to say in the closing statement, yes, it was closed without prejudice for a re-run. Apparently, the previous debate side-tracked. Duja► 09:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Re-requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was uncontested move. DrKiernan 10:11, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Re-requesting move to Prince Louis of Battenberg:

• The previous discussion sidetracked and was closed without prejudice.
• He achieved his greatest significance under this name, as First Sea Lord, and he is probably most noted for having had to resign as First Sea Lord because of this Germanic name.
• His more famous son also changed his name from Prince Louis of Battenberg to Louis Mountbatten, also became First Sea Lord, and also became Admiral of the Fleet. The name Louis of Battenberg typically refers to the father and Louis Mountbatten to the son, as the names under which each achieved his greatest fame.

Morinao 18:50, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Introduction

the introduction seems to me to need some work. If you believe it, then the most important thing he did was be royal, become first sea lord because of it and then be dismissed because of it. This may well be why he was controversial, but it would seem he was also an outstanding officer, who just as arguably became first sea lord despite royal connections rather than because of them. Either way, the intro says very little about him except his royal connections. Sandpiper (talk) 10:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I've made the suggested change. FactStraight (talk) 02:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I see there has been some disagreement about this. My view of the current three para intro is that it still has way too much about royal gossip and nothing about his career. I think the first and last paras are OK. I think I would mention queen victoia alongside Edward as his benefactors in the opening para and then do away with most of the second para which goes on about gossip over whether the queen did or did not help his career unfairly. Instead this paragraph should mention some things he did do for himself: top in lietenants exam, invented Battenburg course indicator strike my eye on a quick read, but it needs to have something on the professional highlights of his career. A mention of using his royal contacts for gathering intelligence might be more usefull, though I am wary of too much of this name dropping. This would however counterbalance the point about his dismissal for being German, which does need to stay. Selbourne described him as 'cleverest sailor I ever met'? On a slightly different tack, getting hold of some of his published drawings might be useful as an illustration in the article of a different aspect of his abilities.Sandpiper (talk) 07:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree. The entire paragraph is about his life and career, and is sourced to impeccable references. The lead should represent the balance of published material on him, which in my opinion it does. DrKiernan (talk) 07:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Properly, the lead of a wiki article should be a summary of the main article. By this basis, if an article wholly misrepresents something, so should the lead. However, after reading the article I do not agree the lead represents the piece. Although the article heavily talks about royal connections, it does not do so to the extent that the lead does, which virtualy tells us nothing about Battenberg as an individual. Sandpiper (talk) 08:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I just don't see where you're coming from. You seem to be reading a completely different lead to me:

As your problem is only with the middle paragraph, let's break it down into the 5 sentences:

1. The Queen and Edward occasionally intervened in his career ..>

covers "Early life": "the Prince and Princess of Wales cruised the Mediterranean and Black Seas, and the Prince of Wales requested that Louis be appointed to the vessel, before his training was complete."

covers "Early naval career": "at the invitation of the Prince of Wales, he joined HMS Serapis...The Prince asked Louis to stay with him at Marlborough House for the summer of 1876...two years he served..on the Royal Yacht, HMY Osborne...Louis was posted to HMS Inconstant, the flag-ship of the Flying Squadron, which included HMS Bacchante on which Princes Albert Victor and George were serving."

covers "Marriage and family": "In September 1883, Queen Victoria appointed him to her yacht, HMY Victoria and Albert"

covers "Later naval career": "On 31 December 1891 Prince Louis..became an aide-de-camp to the Queen, a post he would retain under both King Edward VII"

2. Louis welcomed battle assignments ..>

covers "Early naval career": "wishing to gain further experience at sea, Louis instead accepted an offer...he refused further service on the Royal Yacht, saying it was damaging his professional career, and requested half-pay until he could be given an active duty."

3. Posts on royal yachts and tours actually impeded his progress ..>

covers "Early naval career": "his tour of duty served to make up for the training he had missed..."

covers "later naval career": "Irish nationalist Member of Parliament Willie Redmond questioned the appointment...

to some extent, covers "but elements of the British press were against his appointment"

4. he rose through the command ranks on his own merit ..>

covers "Early naval career": "passed the Sub-Lieutenant's examinations—gaining the best marks ever"

covers "Later naval career": "your tact and sound judgement...invented the Battenberg Course Indicator... careful study of both naval and military defence...the cleverest sailor I have met yet...the American press commented favourably"

5. He took steps to ready the British fleet ..>

covers "Later naval career": "As Second Sea Lord, Louis pushed through improvements...he was responsible to the First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill for the readiness of the fleet and the preparation of naval strategy...anti-German sentiment..drove..Louis to resign"

So, to my reading, the lead does summarise the article. DrKiernan (talk) 09:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

My problem is not 'only' with the middle paragraph. My problem is that the first and third paragraph are entirely about his royal connections, and the middle is largely so. It is not possible to consider the middle para in isolation, but it must redeem the whole from its total bias just talking about royal connections.

The entire lot from your point 1) to 4) is an extended explanation that although he received royal patronage, he worked at a navy career. It says nothing about the details of what he did. A decent summary of his early career might be something like :'from 1870 to 1885 he served on eight ships, seeing action in the Egyptian intervention'. Not precisely sure number of ships, but as an example. A sentence summarising a section about his career needs to in fact mention what he was doing in his career. we might mention, 'best ever marks in sub-lieutenants exam (?midshipman exam?)...In 1885 promoted commander, 1891 captain, spectacular success in naval exercises demonstarted tactical ability, rear admiral 1904, selborne describes him as cleverest sailor I ever met and director of naval intelligence, c in c atlantic 1909, battenberg course indicator, ' and so on. Stuff actually about his career. The intro comits precisely the sin of his contemprorary critics, who accused him of being nothing more than a German prince who obtained his place by patronage. Sandpiper (talk) 11:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

On the last point, no, it doesn't. It states explicitly, "he rose through the command ranks on his own merit". On the first point, the lead isn't the place for minor details: the details are in the article. The lead should encompass the main thrust and arguments of the article. In particular, I feel strongly that details of ranks held and dates of promotion should not be repeated. He isn't famous for being promoted a captain in 1891, or for playing a very minor part in the Egyptian intervention, or because he handled a ship well during maneouvres. He's famous for being a German prince with royal connections who rose to be First Sea Lord and was sacked at the start of the war. DrKiernan (talk) 11:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, he is famous because he rose to first sea lord. Very many people have received preferrment by royal connection yet are totally forgotten. The justification for having an article about him is not that he was a royal favourite, but that he was first sea lord at a time of national crisis. Wiki articles need to do rather more than explain why someone is remembered, they need to fill in the details. It's called balance. Wiki is not the equivalent of a tabloid making scare stories about celebrities, and should not be spreading them. If you must go into the issue of his being dismissed for being german, then it is also necessary to explain that this was unjustified (or, of course, not). The matter is, of course, more complicated than that and had also to do with naval failures. He was not dismissed simply for being german or royal. He was attacked on these grounds as part of in-fighting within the admiralty. To go into the issue of this fight in this way in the introduction is to infer that this is the most important thing about him, which obviously it was not.

As an example, I quote the short description of Battenberg in 'From the dreadnought to Scapa flow (vol 2)' by Arthur Marder. I am told this is quite a good book on WW1 naval issues. In a section sketching out the principle people in the navy he says of Battenberg 'The first sea lord was the brilliant Admiral Prince Louis of Battenberg. He entered the war with a reputation second to no admiral on the active list, having won fame as a handler of a squadron and then of a fleet.' I havn't got volume 1, this is from vol 2 and has a note to see vol 1 where presumably there is a longer description. But this is Marder's summary of the man, equivalent to our introduction. It gives rather a different impression of him than the intro here. I rather think it needs to be born in mind that very many people in victorian england held positions because of nepotism of one sort or another, it was not extraordinary. Even Fisher, who may be the person Marder was thinking Battenberg second to (being retired and not on the active list), and who was a social nobody, entered the navy because his godmother knew an admiral. Marder is distinctly scathing about some other admirals. Sandpiper (talk) 20:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I entirely concur with these observations, and share the objection to the article's lead focusing on the man's royal relatives rather than on the fact that he was Britain's First Sea Lord when World War I began and mobilised its naval fleet in anticipation of hostilities, but was nonetheless sacked because of his German origin (and here I agree that his being a prince in Germany aggravated the public prejudice which led to his ouster), thus obliging a sudden change in the UK's military leadership during the early months of the war when the adversaries began jockying for relative advantage. The lead should reflect what makes Battenberg notable to history, and the rest of the article should be in accord with that emphasis, not vice versa. FactStraight (talk) 08:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand your comment. Both the lead and the article reflect what makes Battenberg notable to history, and the rest of the article is in accord with that emphasis. DrKiernan (talk) 08:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This article is mainly sourced from the two best available biographies of Battenberg: one written by Mark Kerr (Royal Navy officer) and the other by Richard Hough. The article, as it is currently, accurately reflects the published work on Battenberg, the judgement of history and the opinion of his biographers. It is appropriately balanced, neutral, non-bias and verifiable. It is thorough, comprehensive, focused and well-written. DrKiernan (talk) 07:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Well that certainly does not 'damn with faint praise'. What would be appropriate to go into at great length in an entire book dedicated to this subject would not be appropriate in a short article such as this. My objection was not to the balance of the article, but to the balance of the introduction. I have insufficient information to take a view on the article's balance as compared to all known facts about the man. The article as a whole interweaves the effects of his royal connections as it goes along. The introduction picks out some of those royal complications to mention, but manages to largely overlook mentioning his actual career achievements.Sandpiper (talk) 08:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Alternative proposals

How about something like this:

Admiral of the Fleet Louis Alexander Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven, GCB, GCVO, KCMG, PC (24 May 1854 – 11 September 1921), formerly Prince Louis Alexander of Battenberg, was a minor German prince who served as First Sea Lord of the United Kingdom's Royal Navy from 1912 to 1914. As the professional head of the Royal Navy at the outbreak of World War I, he took steps to ready the British fleet for combat, but was forced to retire shortly after hostilities commenced because of his German origin.

Although widely regarded as a brilliant naval officer, he constantly battled the perception that he owed his career to his connections with the British royal family, having married a granddaughter of Queen Victoria and become a protégé of his future king, Edward VII. The Queen and Edward, when Prince of Wales, occasionally intervened in his career—the Queen thought that there was "a belief that the Admiralty are afraid of promoting Officers who are Princes on account of the radical attacks of low papers and scurrilous ones". However, Louis welcomed battle assignments that provided opportunities for him to acquire the skills of war and to demonstrate to his superiors that he was serious about his naval career. Posts on royal yachts and tours actually impeded his progress, as his promotions were perceived as royal favours rather than deserved. However, he rose through the command ranks on his own merit and eventually served as First Sea Lord, the senior uniformed officer in the Royal Navy, from 1912 until 1914, when his background as a German prince impelled First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill to ask him to resign due to rising anti-German sentiment among the British press and public.

He was the father of Queen Louise of Sweden, and was the maternal grandfather of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, consort of Queen Elizabeth II. His son, Admiral of the Fleet Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma, also rose to the top of the naval profession as First Sea Lord from 1955 to 1959 and Chief of the Defence Staff from 1959 to 1965.

-Morinao (talk) 23:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not in favour because the last sentence of the first paragraph is repeated in the last sentence of the second paragraph, and there is too much information on Earl Mountbatten. This does not address the reason for my original revert repeats information in the next paragraph (NOTE: The revert has been undone and the information I removed was replaced: [1]). Nor does it address Sandpiper's point of "too much about his family".

For the final paragraph, I suggest: He was the father of Queen Louise of Sweden, and was the maternal grandfather of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, consort of Queen Elizabeth II. His son, Admiral of the Fleet Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma, also served as First Sea Lord from 1954 to 1959. DrKiernan (talk) 07:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I can see I shall have to draft my own proposal too. However, I think morinao is right that reference to 'protege of Edward VII' should come out of the first para. It implies his success was due to royal preferrment. This is particularly so since the comment is tacked onto the sentence about his naval career, thus conflating the two separate points. If that issue is to be addressed in the intro, it should all be in one para. Marrying queen victoria's granddaughter and a simple 'distinguished career' are also fine as these are both strightforward facts. There is no doubt his royal connections mattered. The first para acts as a summary of the intro.

Then I think I would have another para going into the royal connections issues, but either some more sentences about his career achievements, or a separate para about them. The significant problem which the above version does not address is to add to the intro something about things he did in his own right. Sandpiper (talk) 07:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The recent changes are not acceptableunwise because they remove completely one of the main reasons this man is notable. He is notable for two reasons: (1) he married Queen Victoria's grand-daughter and (2) he served in a high position in the navy. The lead must cover both these points. The problem is that those trying to change the article still haven't grasped that a large number of people are only interested in him because of the royal connection. There are two sets of editors whose interests need to be balanced: one interested in royalty and one interested in the military. The previous lead I have written currently balances these two aspects. DrKiernan (talk) 07:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It isn't a matter of not "grasping" your point, but of having considered it and disagreeing with it. I bought Alden Hatch's book, "The Mountbattens" 40+ years ago entirely because of an already developed interest in royalty. Since then I've learned that lots of others share that interest, while most don't. I've also learned that what is personally "interesting" and what is historically "noteworthy" may be related, but need not be the same thing. Different people will have different concepts of what constitutes notability, and of what is notable in a given instance. What is "acceptable" or not in this article is not unilaterally decided -- that would be OWNERSHIP, and Wikipedia doesn't tolerate it. FactStraight (talk) 08:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I've already compromised by moving what you want into the top paragraph, and removing details of his family from the lead. I am the only one making concessions. You've made none. It's time for you to make one. DrKiernan (talk) 08:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

That might be true if I were the only person who disagreed with your preferred emphasis. This page documents 3 other editors making it clear that the lead needs to identify Battenberg's role in World War I, the reasons for removal from that role, as well as his princely rank. The version that I inserted was not my original version, but that drafted by Morinao after reading input from the other 3 of us. I don't prefer his version to my own, but find it acceptable, and it has been subscribed to by two other editors. That's enough to make the change. FactStraight (talk) 08:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You're not making any sense. You say the lead "needs to identify Battenberg's role in World War I, the reasons for removal from that role, as well as his princely rank." I absolutely agree. The current lead does exactly that: eventually rising to First Sea Lord in 1912. He took steps to ready the British fleet for combat as World War I began, but his background as a German prince forced his retirement at the start of the war when anti-German feeling was running high. DrKiernan (talk) 08:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You're attempting to claim & enforce ownership of this article in violation of Wikipedia's policy of collegial editorship and to the exclusion of 3 others who've sought to contribute. Insulting the perspectives of those that disagree with you simply adds insult to injury. FactStraight (talk) 09:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I haven't insulted anybody, and I have made edits to the article incorporatagreeing with suggestions made by the 3 editors to whom you refer.I agree with youI agree with MorinaoI agree with Morinao and SandpiperI agree with you and Morinao DrKiernan (talk) 09:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The point is the notion that we are offering "suggestions" while you are "incorporating" that which you alone deem "acceptable". The proof is in the pudding: Before Sandpiper's suggestion was first edited into the lead, the article began, Admiral of the Fleet Louis Alexander Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven, GCB, GCVO, KCMG, PC (24 May 1854 – 11 September 1921), formerly Prince Louis Alexander of Battenberg, was a minor German prince who married a granddaughter of Britain's Queen Victoria and pursued a distinguished career in the United Kingdom's Royal Navy, becoming a protégé of his future king, Edward VII. After lengthy discusssion on this talk page about needed edits to the lead, including suggested drafts, and my attempts to edit the consensus into the article, the article now begins, Admiral of the Fleet Louis Alexander Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven, GCB, GCVO, KCMG, PC (24 May 1854 – 11 September 1921), formerly Prince Louis Alexander of Battenberg, was a minor German prince related to the British Royal Family who served as First Sea Lord, the senior uniformed officer in the United Kingdom's Royal Navy. The difference is negligible, and omits the fundamental shift in the article's opening emphasis that Sandpiper, Morinao and I concurred was needed, despite your dissent. That's ownership, pure and simple. No amount of tinkering around the edges or making much of offering splinters while petrifying the forest can make it look as though compromise and consensus have been been implemented here. I can't stop it alone, but hopefully others will weigh in to prevent this ongoing violation of Wikipedia collegiality and principles. FactStraight (talk) 10:25, 6 August 2008 (UTC)