Talk:Deus ex machina

Last two paragraphs.

The last two paragraphs are completely useless, in my opinion. I suggest deletion for them.

Cleansing

I cleansed most of the examples because none of them improved the article. They were simply arbitrarily-chosen examples from modern fiction. I left the opera example in place because it illustrated another use of 'deus ex machina' that was not otherwise explained. Chris Croy (talk) 17:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Negative Connotation of DEM

"...The term is a negative one, and it often implies a lack of skill on the part of the writer." I believe the source didn't give enough explaination about why the use of a DEM showed the writer has "no skill". Please try to repair with adequite sources.--SpartaGeek23 (talk) 19:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I have edited out the "bad writer" reference and the source. anyone else can replace if suitable evidence can be found that all writers who use a Deus Ex Machina are horrible.--SpartaGeek23 (talk) 20:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not that the writers who use it are bad or lack skill, necessarily. It's just a lazy way to do things that's less satisfying to the audience: presenting them with a puzzle and when they can't figure it out, say "Oh, by the way, I changed the rules".--Loodog (talk) 20:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Stephen King

Should his penchant for DEM endings be mentioned? --96.52.132.224 (talk) 22:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No, but we do need one clear example to demonstrate the subject.--Loodog (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that if we have ANY sort of 'list' of examples, well-meaning fans will endlessly add examples of DEM that don't improve the article. This would be a prime example: How would this article be better by mentioning "Steven King uses it a lot"? Would anyone familiar with the concept look at the article and say to themselves, "The bastards! They forgot about King!"? But I agree: If someone would add a single, solid, well-known modern use in a paragraph of prose, that would be great. Chris Croy (talk) 02:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought the Superman example was good. It was an obvious and well-known Deus ex machina.--Loodog (talk) 20:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. It's well-known and pretty much everyone has the exact same reaction when first exposed to it: "...he flies so fast he turns back time? wtf?" You want to add it back in or shall I? Chris Croy (talk) 20:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I put it back and added a HTML comment to users to not examples without discussion on the talk page.--Loodog (talk) 20:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't his ability alluded to earlier in the movie? It's been a while, but as I recall, Jor-El's recording specifically warns him not to travel through time, implying that he has the ability to begin with. Caswin (talk) 23:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

"It is forbidden to interfere with earth's history". If that somehow conveys to the audience, "Superman has the ability to time travel," it's only in the vaguest possible way.--Loodog (talk) 00:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's the one. It's certainly not very clear-cut, but it's still meant as foreshadowing, as supported by how the movie revisits the warning just before Superman does exactly that. And while I doubt many people at all could have seen it coming, it didn't just come out of nowhere, either. If the Superman example remains, I propose that it should be amended to reflect this. Caswin (talk) 03:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Negative Connotation of DEM, An Argument Against

The word 'contrived' has a negative connotation and therefore I am not sure it fits the definition. Since before the time of Spinoza and Descartes, people have believed in the notion that within the mechanics or system of any object (man made or not) there is some form (Plato) of spiritual presence or entity, and this notion is replete almost throughout all artistic expression and throughout the world. Plato points out that artistic expression itself (through Forms) is imbued with this kind of metaphysical presence. It is only in recent times that we think of mechanics (even the mechanics of a crane) as begin devoid of spiritual presence or influence through underlying spiritual design; yet that is what Deus ex Machina connotes, that not only is there a spiritual or (in a sinister way) ghostly presence within a machine, but in the very design or system of all things. There are many examples of it that point to this underlying belief. Just one example from contemporary drama emphasizes the “spirit” of what I'm stating: Donnie Darko involves Deus ex Machina in the denouement, where time travel and its mechanics are attributed with a metaphysical (a spiritual) design, and it is used to resolve the plot. Many would say, also, that the Bible itself frequently makes use of Deus ex Machina, either in terms of Logos, where God is implied to be in the Words of the New Testament itself (see Deus ex Machina context on wikidot), or in terms of direct intervention where Christ, for instance, raises Lazurus from the dead. And this notion, of spiritual entities being within the mechanics or design of the written word is not exclusive to the Bible. It is implied in the phrase, “Intelligent Design”; Plato mentions it (Logos); the Popul Vuh states that the words of deities created the universe; and some in the far east still believe that a word, specifically within the sound of “Ohm”, created the universe. All of this is to say that although the English word 'contrived' fits the definition, it also implies a negative connotation that does not fully capture the contemporary definition and use. And because of this it is clear that people are falsely attributing this creative device as something to avoid when writing, and falsely attributing this creative device to what they consider to be bad plots within movies or fiction. Further, many are falsely indicating that in a contemporary context Deus ex Machina does not imply something metaphysical within any human artifice such as machines, or the mechanics of writing itself. That is not true as can be found in many novels, paintings, films, lyrics, etc. To name just a few: Ghost in the Machine by the Police; Gremlins by Steven Spielberg; The Ring as directed by Gore Verbinski; Frankenstein by Mary Shelly; Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep by Phillip K. Dick; or even Salvador Dali's painting of melting clocks. . . By contrast, it would be a challenge to find Deus ex Machina used in the contemporary movement of Realism, such as anything written by Hemingway, Steinbeck, or Cormac McCarthy. Therein, I believe, lies the confusion: Competing contemporary artistic schools of thought, where one group of artists emphasizes logical and structural objectivity (within fiction), and another group emphasizes belief, which is subjective. Charlessauer (talk) 19:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

DEM has nothing to do with metaphysics or an intelligent omnipotent entity; it's a literary device and nothing more. In Donnie Darko, for example, the ending is NOT a DEM because the whole movie has been setting up the notion/expectation of time travel for the viewer.--Loodog (talk) 20:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh? I can site three authoritative texts on the matter of metaphysics used specifically in terms of logos (deus ex machina) to imply a spiritual connotation within the context of the mechanics of writing, or the written word, or anything mechanical : 1.) A Glossary of Literary Terms by M.H. Abrams and Geoffrey Harpham; 2.) Natural Supernaturalism by M.H. Abrams; 3.) A Dictionary of Critical Theory by David Macey. Charlessauer (talk) 20:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

All of which ignore the common definition of DEM in modern context.--Loodog (talk) 21:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

And you, a physics graduate, are a greater authority on the matter than say the General Editor of the Norton Anthology of English Literature, M. H. Abrams? Charlessauer (talk) 21:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not asserting my authority on literature, I'm asserting the authority of Merriam-Webster on usage in English language.--Loodog (talk) 21:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

You are defending the arguments of Aristotle, and I am defending those of Plato. To that extent, the question is moot. And by the very fact that the question is moot, and that this ancient argument goes back to classics such as Oedipus Rex, which many scholars believe to be not contrived and worthy of classification as a Classic, begs the question again about use of the negative word "contrived". May I suggest a simple alternative: Use the words "artistic device" or an equivalent phrase to replace the word "contrivance" or "contrived". I've stated my argument. I suggest we put it to a vote, or at least let a few others state or defend their position for or against. Charlessauer (talk) 22:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm making no arguments on content or literature whatsoever. I'm talking about its modern non-pedagogical usage. In this meaning, DEM absolutely carries dirty and lazy connotations and is warned against by every authority in writing precisely because of its contrivedness. In your other usage, a DEM might be a desirable thing — I don't know; I'm not a literature expert. What you're ignoring is the primary meaning of this phrase.--Loodog (talk) 22:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that for you to indicate you are making no arguments is an example of the philosophical notion of “bad faith”. But let's not belabor that one because it is outside the scope. Let's go back to your argument about Donnie Darko. Do you really believe that a human being, Donnie, can stop a jet engine from falling from the sky by mentally going back in time, by simply willing it with his mind, or through the use of some funny looking blob that comes out of his chest? Also, the very same jet engine in the beginning of the movie that came from nowhere while Donnie's sister and mother are asleep at home, by the end of the movie is one that potentially comes from a plane that Donnie's sister and mother are riding. Even if they are not riding it, and it is all a dream, it is a dream of the future and in such, are we to believe that Donnie has psychic powers? So you are arguing that the literary mechanism is one to be avoided, and yet you are arguing against many popular films and novels that sell. Charlessauer (talk) 22:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This is far from bad faith. I am amazed at how different your read of my words are from my intentions.

1. "No arguments." Please parse this within its the context, or even the rest of the sentence. I am making no arguments based on literature. I am neither praising nor condemning any author or literary technique and so I have no literary arguments to make, which seemed to be your interpretation of my response. I am not making a value judgement on DEM; I am defining it.
2. Your categorization of Donnie Darko as a DEM suggests you are applying some other definition of deus ex machina, than the modern colloquial one as defined by Merriam-Webster. The definition this articles uses and therefore categorizes by is:

“ a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty ”

This definition has nothing to do with a deity. No one needs to have god-like powers. This definition of a DEM refers merely to the writing process. If you don't understand that you're working with a different definition of "deus ex machina" than the article is, this argument can go nowhere.

--Loodog (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I am arguing against the negative connotation of a word. You are arguing for it. You said, "DEM absolutely carries dirty and lazy connotations." What dictionary did you find that in? Can you cite one source? You say you are "making no arguments based on literature." Then what is your purpose? That is what this article is about - a literary device. You say you are "neither praising nor condemning any author or literary technique." Then why did you say that "DEM absolutely carries dirty and lazy connotations"? That is a value judgement. Rather than assist in creating an encyclopedic entry, you are insisting on derogatory connotations, such as "dirty" and "lazy". You defended Donnie Darko to not be DEM because you say it does not contain contrivances. What do you call "time travel" which solves the plot? On the other hand, I agree, Donnie Darko which used DEM shouldn't be viewed negatively. You say it has nothing to do with "deity". Then, why is the word "Deus", which translates as "god" used? Have you ever listened to the director's commentary for Donnie Darko? He unequivocally indicates he used Theological ideas. I've pointed out that the writing process is a mechanical process and you insist that we are talking about the writing process. True. We are talking about the mechanical process of writing, particularly the literary device, Deus ex Machina. Charlessauer (talk) 04:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

1. I'm not proffering any personal opinion on the quality of DEM; I'm explaining what is commonly felt about it by other people, which, at this point is moot because you're working with some other definition. I'm claiming doctors support eating apples and you're saying, "No, no no. Bananas are bad for you!"
2. Time travel is not a DEM in Donnie Darko because it doesn't come about without introduction. The entire movie is spent explaining that time travel is possible, how it works, etc... so that when time travel appears, it's been set up as plausible in the logic of the story. Whether God is responsible does not matter. In modern usage the "God" part of it is a metaphor for the solution. The dictionary definition is asserting that God does not factor in. I suggest you read this article to gain an understanding of this meaning. When you do, then it won't be futile for me to explain why DEM has a negative connotation and is advised against by every writing workship, which has nothing to do with my opinion of it.

Beyond that, I'm sorry, if you won't accept a dictionary definition you're basing your argument on meaningless words in a meaningless language. Anything can be redefined to the benefit of the point you're trying to make and there's no point in continuing.--Loodog (talk) 14:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

In Donnie Darko they use the words Deus ex Machina. To say that every writing workshop advises against Deus ex Machina is illogical, and unsubstantiated. I'm sorry too, that you are determined to apply physics and law to the study of literature. We are talking about fiction where metaphore, symbolism, illogical constructs, and other figurative language are allowed and encouraged. I'm sorry that you don't like that, but just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong, or "dirty", or "lazy". Fiction will continue to thrive. I have said my piece. Charlessauer (talk) 17:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'm responding to a request for comment.

Loodog, Charlessauer, do you think maybe we could include both definitions? It sounds like both of you have something meaningful to contribute to the article in different sections. I think it would be really cool if there were some sections on the modern definition spoken of by Loodog followed by some more sections that talk about the definition that Charlessauer describes, with a lead section that summarizes both definitions.

Charlessauer:

• I don't think Loodog is trying to assert that he has a higher knowledge than professionals, he is just saying that the most used definition today is "an artificial or improbable event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama that resolves a situation or untangles the plot."

Loodog, a few things:

• First, you are right in that the most commonly used definition is what you said. But that doesn't mean that's all there is to say about the topic. Charlessauer looks like he has some valid and verifiable input that would make a great definition to the article. If he has reliable, published sources that support his statement, he likely has some valuable input for the article.
• The dictionary doesn't necessarily include every possible definition of a word, and it especially doesn't include the history of a word. That's more the realm of references such as the Oxford English Dictionary, which is much more thorough. Perhaps there's some history behind the phrase that neither of us knows about?
• I wouldn't say the dictionary says that God absolutely does not factor in. Like you said, deus ex machina is a literary device, and so whether or not God factors in is something the author can decide.

Also, Charlessauer mentioned some sort of debate between Plato and Aristotle about deus ex machina. That would be a great thing to include in the article as well!

You could say something like,

---

"Greek philosophers Plato and Aristotle discussed deus ex machina in their lectures.

Plato's teachings

insert Plato's teachings here.

Aristotle's teachings

insert Aristotle's views here."

---

Talk about the controversy, if any, between them and how their views differ from those of other philosophers who taught about deus ex machina. Were there any others? A detailed, neutral section on that controversy would add considerably to the article, in my opinion.

You see, since Wikipedia wants comprehensive articles, it's wonderful to address lots of different meanings, definitions, and controversies (if applicable). It sounds like, between the two of you, you've got enough material to make this a great article. If you need any help deciding on the order, flow, or structure of the article, or on a wording that would be a compromise between both of you, I can help with that, too. Just ask for it here or on my talk page.

As for the word "contrived", I think there may be a word that would flow better English-wise. Perhaps "plot device"?

I hope this helps. Cheers! SunDragon34 (talk) 02:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This misses what I'm saying. Insofar as the modern usage for laymen and movie critics and so forth is concerned, a deus ex machina is a contrivance that is acknowledged across the board as undesirable in writing. Charlessauer is therefore unintentionally defending a straw man as the usage he seems to be referring to carries no such undesireability in execution. I have so far failed miserability at conveying this to him.--Loodog (talk) 03:17, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

...Do all reliable schools of thought really consider it undesirable? The postmodern literary style does try deliberately to destroy suspension of disbelief because it wants to jar the audience out of its comfort zone. Are there reliable, published sources saying that it is or is not desirable? If there are reliable, published sources that say that it is desirable, then there must be two sides to the issue and we should consider including both sides in the article for neutrality. So, perhaps there is someone who says it actually is desirable.

In fact, a google search gives me the following hits: [1] (ninth paragraph, beginning with "A postmodernist film"), [2] (fourth paragraph, this is a specific author), and [3] (middle of the page). It looks like there are some people who don't want to suspend disbelief. (Though I admit that one of these sources isn't good enough for the actual encyclopedia, but I think it's enough to show what I'm saying in this context. At least one, the third one, looks like it passes WP policy for inclusion in an article.)

If we do make absolute or general statements as to what most people believe, we have to have reliable sources backing it up. I'm just saying that if deus ex machina is considered undesirable, we need published sources to support that claim per WP:Verifiability, and also to have no reliable, published sources to the contrary (see the second-to-last sentence two paragraphs above this one).

SunDragon34 (talk) 06:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• Doesn't meet RS.
• Doesn't meet RS.
• Doesn't meet RS.
• Doesn't meet RS, but mentions a quote from H.G. Wells:"If anything is possible, then nothing is interesting." Which nicely sums it up.
• A bunch of people bitching about it on a forum, also doesn't meet RS

That's all I could find. There was a line from Robert McKee in Adaptation: "Find an ending, but don’t cheat, and don’t you dare bring in a deus ex machina!", but fictional movies aren't really RS either.--Loodog (talk) 20:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Point One: I agree and have understood your argument, all along, Loodog. And having thought it over, I will concede to the use of the word contrivance. Even the Marriam-Webster dictionary defines “contrived” as “to form or create in an artistic or ingenious manner,” and does not hint at the contemporary negative connotations of this word.

Point Two: But I do agree with SunDragon34 that there is more to be said about this topic. I have found several sources on the web and one from M.H. Abrams.

The Literary Glossary web site points out that the term is often used negatively, but says that in some genres it is positive and expected, such as in various vitae.

At an On-Line Glossary of Literary Terms, they say that it is a "highly improbable chance or coincidence."

This web site used the same sources as the first example to explain that it is sometimes, such as in vita, a positive trait of some genres.

M.H. Abrams, see this site, by describing authors that use it as "hard-pressed", indicates it has a negative connotation, but simultaneously points out that it is used by Charles Dickens' Oliver Twist, and Thomas Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbervilles, which are two well known and highly acclaimed novels.

As mentioned, I agree that it is used negatively, and I will agree to the use of the term contrivance. That said, there are numerous entries on the web as demonstrated by my examples (which are not blogs), indicating that it is not always used negatively. Charlessauer (talk) 00:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, none of these meets WP:RS either since they're all personal webpages, but I'll put one in to source the "lack of skill" concept until we can find something better.--Loodog (talk) 14:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

There appear to be a great many inaccuracies, distortions and misunderstandings in the debate above. Firstly, where, specifically, in Plato's writings does he discuss the deus ex machina? I believe that you will find that he didn't. Not least because the phrase is of Latin origin. To attempt to crowbar Plato's theory of forms into an article on deus ex machina is nonsense. There might be some justification for all those heebie-jeebie musings in the ghost in the machine article, but certainly not here. The translation from Aristotle's Poetics that the article originally provided was misleading too; again, because of the use of a latin phrase. I have replaced the relevant quotation with a more recent scholarly translation, which makes it clear that the phrase is a mechane, which, when understood as a moment of the plot, is rendered as "contrivance". (See too Janko's note on this on p.111.) The notion that "intelligent design" is something other than a Biblical concept is an opinion not shared by anyone who is not a religious fundamentalist. To collapse subjectively-orientated fiction into a religious perspective isn't accurate either; one can write subjectively without falling into religious distortions. Finally, the analysis of Donnie Darko is utter nonsense. While it's true that deus ex machina is definitely a part of the overall design of the plot, it is far from being "metaphysical" or "spiritual"--quite the reverse. The plot is explicitly intertextually related to The Last Temptation of Christ; from the inciting incident onwards, Donnie Darko explores the same kind of parallel alternative timeline that Scorsese's film does, when Jesus gets down from the cross and leads an entire alternative life. The intertextual reference is there for us to mark its divergence from the Jesus-story: Donnie is a Jesus-like figure in a world without God. It is due to a chance accident that the sky falls on his head. This article needs a more historically-grounded account of the development of the concept; the "god" in the machine is a character in a tragedy--we need a discussion of how this developed during the fifth century Athenian theatre. Then Aristotle's discussion in the Poetics, with reference to complication and probability in design. Then how this developed through Roman and neo-classical dramatic theory right the way down to its (often rather facile) use in contemporary screenwriting manuals. There ought to be a parallel/related account of the different and changing use of the device in the history of post-classical drama. This topic is far more complex that either the present state of the article or the discussion above appears to appreciate. DionysosProteus (talk) 16:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment

I came here from RfC. I cannot see what you want comments on. Will someone please either summarise the issue requiring comment, or else remove the tag? AndyJones (talk) 12:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Since mine is the only comment in five days, and it hasn't been answered, I've removed the tag. AndyJones (talk) 07:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Modern Use examples

There is a standing request not to add examples to this section without coming to the discussion page. In my opinion, there are much better examples of DEM in film than the example from the 1978 version of Superman. Perhaps somebody should replace that example with a more powerful example. For instance, in "The War of the Worlds," aliens begin methodically destroying mankind. Nothing seems to be able to stop them, and just when the world is on the brink of being taken over, the alien craft all just stop functioning and the aliens suddenly die because they breathed in some germs from Earth's atmosphere (this is how the book and all filmed versions of the story end). To me, that is the ultimate example of DEM. ChargersFan (talk) 19:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The example that comes to mind immeduately is the one fron The Deathly Hallos book in the Harry Potter series. The ability to speak Parseltounge is presented throughout the series as something special that only a few people can do. Towards the end of the book it is said that Ron uses parseltounge to open a door to find and destroy a Horocrux. This incredible and I beleive this is a good example of DEM. Superman example is weak. Deepak23 (talk) 07:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The Single Greatest Example Ever Contrived by Modern Man

An example was certainly made for this article as it uses the actual phrase "deus ex machina": near the fin of the movie Dodgeball, the winning's from Peter's bet on the championship game are brought on court in a treasure chest bearing a plaque with the phrase "deus ex machina" on it. The money is, of course, probably the most perfect example of deus ex machina ever contrived as it solves a multitude of plot issues (such as salvaging Peter and Steve's friendship, redeeming Peter's for leaving the team thinking that any attempt to beat Globo Gym would be futile, and by offering the protagonist the ability to undo the antagonist by giving the former ownership over Globo Gym, which Peter turns into a bigger and better Average Joe's Gymnasium), and the example should be included in this article not simply because of its effective use of the device, but for its actual use of the phrase in the film. --Mierk (talk) 23:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)