User talk:Matia.gr/Archive 2

old stuff: User talk:Matia.gr/Archive 1

Please leave new message at the buttom.

REX

REX part 1

The following personal message is in Greek for various reasons of my own. Because of my well known hostility to messages on the English Wikipedia being in a foreign language, a translation is available on request.

MATIA, Θα ήθελα να παραπονεθώ! Συνέχεια με κατηγορείς, λέγοντας ότι προκαλώ. Αυτό δεν είναι αλήθεια. Εγώ προσπαθώ να βελτιώσω τα λήμματα του Wikipedia και πάντα αιτιολογώ τα edits μου. Συζητήσαμε χθές για το αν οι Αρβανίτες καταλαβαίνουν τους Τόσκηδες και τους Γκέκηδες και τα αντίστροφα. Έγω έκανα μερικά edits που δεν έπρεπε, μου εξήγησες ότι ήταν λάθος και τα διόρθωσα. Σήμερα έκανα edit λέγοντας τα Αρανίτικα είναι μια μορφή της Τόσκικης διαλέκτου αποδεικνύοντας το και εσύ μου λες ότι προκαλώ. Έπειτα στο Talk Page της Δημοκρατίας της Μακεδονίας εξηγώ γιατί πιστεύω ότι ΠΓΔΜ δεν είναι η επίσημη ονομασία αυτής της χώρας και μου λες ότι προκαλώ. Είναι αυτό δίκαιο; REX 11:37, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

REX, είναι κάτι που δεν έκανες μόνο μία φορά. Και θα ήθελα πολύ να μην είναι αλήθεια το ότι τα γράφεις για να προκαλείς, αλλά δεν μπορώ να ξέρω ούτε αν το κάνεις επίτηδες, ούτε όχι. Στη σελίδα για την ονομασία έχει μια εκτενή ανάλυση για την έννοια ονομάζεται επίσημα και τη σημαίνει ΟΗΕ, κάμποσες παραγράφους πιο πάνω απ' τα σημερινά μας σχόλια. Ο ΟΗΕ χρησιμοποιεί σε όλα τα έγγραφα του σαν ορολογία το φ.υ.ρ.ο.μ. Αφενός αυτά τα έγγραφα είναι όλα επίσημα και θεωρώ ότι είναι σαφές αυτή η ονομασία έχει υιοθετηθεί και επιλεγχθεί για επίσημη χρήση. Αυτό είναι το οφίσιαλ που γράφαμε και ξαναγράφαμε. Η φράση που πήγες και άλλαξες στους Αρβανίτες ήταν η ίδια φράση που δεν πείραξες χτες όταν έγγραφες για τους Γκέγκηδες (αν το γράφω λάθος συγνώμη). Έχω άδικο να αναρωτιέμαι γιατί το κάνεις και ειδικά όταν μου λες ξανά ότι για μένα δήθεν καλή θέληση σημαίνει να συμφωνούν οι άλλοι με όσα λες. Πώς να πιστέψω ότι δεν τα κάνεις επίτηδες; Τις συνεισφορές μου μπορείς, και σε προτρέπω, να τις ελέγξεις μία προς μία. Δε θα βρεις μια φορά να έχω γράψει κάτι σε άρθρο που είτε είναι αμφισβητίσιμο είτε δεν έχει συζητηθεί εκτενώς στην αντίστοιχη σελίδα. Θέλω πολύ να πιστέψω ότι καμιά φορά βγάζεις βιαστικά συμπεράσματα και πως δεν το κάνεις επίτηδες. Βοήθησέ με με τις πράξεις σου, ειλικρινά θέλω να πιστέψω και θέλω να συνεργαστούμε για να προχωρήσει αυτή η εγκυκλοπαίδεια. Σ' ευχαριστώ. MATIA 12:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

REX, this is something that you did more than once. I would really like to be wrong that you write these to provoke, but I can't tell or know if you are doing it on purpose, or not. In the page about the name (dispute) there is a long analysis of the term officialy named and what is the meaning of UN, few paragraphs beyond our today comments. UN uses in all UN documents the term f.y.r.o.m. On the one hand all the documents are official and I believe it is clarified that this naming term has been adopted and chosen for official use. This is the official that has been long discussed. The phrase you changed in Arvanites is the same phrase you didn't altered yesterday, when you wrote about the Ghegs (I apologise if I have a spelling mistake). Am I wrong to wonder why are you doing it nd especially when you say again the I, supposedly, mean good will mean agreeing with everything you say. How can I believe that you are not doing these on purpose? You can check my contributions, and I encourage you to do so, one by one. You won't find me writing something disputable in an article and you won't find me writing something that wasn't discussed in long, before in the talk page. I would really want to believe that you are not doing it on purpose. Help me with your acts, I sincerely want to believe (you) and I want to co-operate with you to improve this encyclopedia. Thank you. 12:53, 3 September 2005 translated MATIA 22:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Δεν διαφωνώ μαζί σου σε αυτό. Ο ΟΗΕ και τα περισσότερα κράτη του κόσμου έχουν αναγνωρίσει επίσημα εκείνο το κράτος ως ΠΓΔΜ. Σε εκείνη την εκτενή ανάλυση που λες, λένε ότι υπάρχει νόμος του ΟΗΕ (UN law) που δέκτηκε το κράτος των Σλαβομακεδόνων και κάνει το όνομα 'Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας' παράνομο και το όνομα ΠΓΔΜ την επίσημη ονομασία αυτού του κράτους. Αυτό δεν είναι αλήθεια (μη νομίζεις, ούτε εμένα μ' αρέσει να ονομάζεται Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας, είναι παραπλανητικό), συμφώνησαν να γίνει μέλος του ΟΗΕ χρησιμοποιώντας για μερικούς διεθνής σκοπούς μόνο (πρωτόκολλα, συνθήκες κλπ) το όνομα ΠΓΔΜ. Δεν συμφώνησαν να αλλάξει το όνομα του κράτους. Αυτό δεν κάνει το όνομα ΔΜ παράνομο. Αν είχαν συμφωνήσει σε αυτό, τότε η μακεδονική κυβέρνηση δε θα το χρησιμοποιούσε ως επίσημο. Εγώ λέω να κάνουμε το εξής: να κανουπε αυτό που έκαναν στο άρθρο Ισραήλ, δηλαδή να χρησιμοποιήσουμε το όνομα που ορίζει το σύνταγμα του κράτους αλλά να αναφέρουμε ότι ο ΟΗΕ το αναγνωρίζει ως ΠΓΔΜ. Μη ξεχνάς, όπως έχω ξαναπεί, ο ΟΗΕ δεν είναι World government. REX 14:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Πρόσεξε στο άρθρο έλεγε όνομα τάδε, επίσημα ονομάζετε δείνα. Το τάδε είναι το συνταγματικό όνομα-αυτοπροσδιορισμός, και το δεύτερο το όνομα που χρησιμοποιείται διεθνώς, ΟΗΕ, IMF και όλοι οι υπόλοιποι οργανισμοί, στα επίσημα έγγραφα. Όσο για απαγόρευση του σκέτου όρου πρέπει να ψάξεις τις αποφάσεις του ΟΗΕ 94-97 κι όχι 92-93. MATIA 14:46, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Please notice that in the article, the previous phrasing was name is this... officialy named that. This is the constitutional name-selfidentifying, and that is the internationally used name, UN, IMF and the rest organizations, on (their) official documents. About the (agreement on) illegalizing the plain term you should search the UN resolutions and agreements between 94-97, not in 92-93. 14:46, 3 September 2005 translated MATIA 22:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Μήπως θα ήταν καλύτερα να μην αναφέρουμε τη λέξη 'επίσημο' και να πούμε απλώς: Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας είναι το συνταγματικό όνομα αλλά ο ΟΗΕ την ονομάζει ΠΓΔΜ η κάτι παρόμοιο; REX 15:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

REX part 2

MATIA, On the talk page of Arvanites I wasn't referring to yoy as the far-right extremist, but Theathenae, because he keeps calling me (directly mind you, I just implied it) an Albanian extremist. I wish he wouldn't. I'm not even Albanian. Also I wasn't refferint to the ethnologue.com linguists either. Why would I. They themselves have at the heading of the page Arvanitika, Albanian (haven't you wondered why, given that you believe that Arvanitic is not a variant of Albanian, but a seperate language altgether?). Also, you have said that I provoke. That is a totally unjustified claim intended to destroy my credibility. You should stop it. Such tricks should not be used. Even if it were true, it is not your place to dicipline Wikipedians. REX 21:55, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

REX I 'm sick and tired of your false accusations. My contributions are here, and anyone including you can check them. If I ever did anything wrong, or even if I ever did any of those things you imply or say, I am here and I am responsible of my acts. I never played any kind of tricks. What you have proven repeatedly the last two days is that you fall into vicious circles. I don't know why you can't help doing it.

Other than that I'm wondering why you, after our last discussions, are bringing back the provoke thing. Should I translate my previous answer to English so that everyone can read our discussion? I really don't understand why you act this way.

I've never tried to discipline anyone, and I wouldn't try it because I can't do it. I 've shown you respect, despite your acts were many times unjustified. You falsely accuse me of playing tricks. MATIA 22:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, you may have not realised that you were doing it, but you accused me of proviking out of bad faith, didn't you. All I had done was make some entirely justifiable statements which you didn't agree with. You didn't however tick off Theathenae for always proviking me on the Talk:Arvanites page. That was clearly bad faith, he wasn't presenting any arguments he was just making statements such as As you can see, your [REX's] narrow-minded far-right Albanian fanaticism has no support on this talk page and Perhaps because he [REX] too is a far-right Albanian nationalist . There was no proof to those statements, I had even done something incompatable with Albanian nationalism. It is curious that you didn't tick him off. I never made such proviking statements, I just raised some questions. Perhaps because he was supporting YOUR arguments. Is that the good faith that you claim to have? I have never made unjustifiable acts as you claim. Everything I did can be justified. Don't forget that it takes TWO parties to make vicious circles. I want this thing over with as much as you. You just don't have any sources to support your arguments. I on the other hand do:

• Encarta refers to Arvanitic as a variety of Albanian
• Ethnologue includes Albanian in the names of the language (at the heading Arvanitika, Albanian)
• Your statement that ethnologue calls Arvanitic a language in its own right can be questioned as: a) Its categrisation methods into languages and dialects have been criticised before (check the entry and you will see), b) Assuming that they are right in this case (Arvanitic is indeed a language) I am not saying that Arvanitic is not a language (I even changed its name from Arvanitic to Arvanitic language and that is how it should remain) if you check the meaning of the word variety you will see that in can mean a language in its own right (which will have a standard version), so by using that word we are not excluding the possibility that it is indeed a separate language. Unfortunately, that has not been officially established so you can't say with certainty if it is a language or a dialect (check entry), then we would know what to do.

Therefore the only thing to do is to use the phrasing that professional scholars have themselves used, unless of course you think that you know better than them. The fact that you find this phrasing so unacceptable (in my opinion) look politically motivated and that raises questions about your credibility. The above argument is not a vicious circle as you falsly claim in conjunction with my other observations (all of which could be innocent oversights, I make plenty. Nobody is perfect) would make people doubt your soundness. Anyway, let's just get this thing over with. I have seen that you have indeed mabe meaningful contributions to WP articles and I like to believe that I do too. Then we can move on to other articles. All of this message of which some parts are quite harsh is of the best intentions. REX 23:19, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

You are falling into vicious circles. MATIA 08:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

That is another of your tricks isn't it (you claim not to use any). I have a legitimate argument above, there are no defects. REX 08:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I wrote you on Talk:Arvanites and/or Talk:Arvanitic language that both phrases are correct and I wrote you why the one is better than the other. At some point you seemed to agree and then you started all over again. I can't go through all these, again.

You attacked me with phrases like MATIA, does 'good will' mean agreeing with everything you say?, You have to prove what you say, not let your POV into the article and expect us to accept it because it is what you want (while I was quoting ethnologue), you accuse me of playing tricks etc.

I'm only trying to protect myself from your attacks.

You are falling into vicious circles and this has nothing to do with Straw man arguments. You are falling into loops, your questions have been answered and then you start all over again. This is meaningless.
MATIA 09:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

If saying Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk is so wrong, why then does Encarta use it? Encarta is edited by professional scholars. Are you expecting us to accept that you know better than them. Your definition is entirely without precedent and can easilly be challenged by anyone, while mine is quoted by professionals. REX 09:29, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Your questions have been answered before. If you can't understand the answers, what can I do? Aren't the linguists in Ethnologue professionals? Should I say that your last comment is a strawman argument? Please read again the corresponding talk pages. MATIA 09:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

i can also use ethnologue: At the heading it says Albanian, Arvanitika a language of Greece. You quote the language but that has already been quoted in the title Arvanitic language. What is the Albanian for? REX 09:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I can't help you. MATIA 09:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Of course you can't. You can't answer that can you.

• Ethnologue refers to Albanian, Arvanitika a language of Greece.
• Encarta refers to Arvanitic as a variety of Tosk.

See, how can you now claim that Arvanitic is a language in its own right. We can use the phrasing I proposed and the same phrasing is used by professionals. You don't know better than them. This is not a vicious circle is it. There are no defects. Just in case you are considering saying that Ethnologue refers to Arvanitic as a language please check Linguistics and Dialect. REX 09:48, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Please stop writing on my talk page about these stuff.
I told you before that I can't help you. MATIA 09:52, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Request

MATIA, I plead with you with all the earnestness possible to observe Wikipedia policy. You have no references to support your explosive claims. You have repeatedly stated that there is evidence on Talk:Arvanites and Talk:Arvanitic language. That is a lie. There is no conclusive evidence there that even implies that Arvanitic is a language in its own right. However, I do have an open mind. Because I might have overlooked something on those pages, please copy and paste relevant phrases that prove that Arvanitic is a language in its own right on my Talk Page. If you succeed in proving that Arvanitic is a language in its own right I will refrain from insisting that Arvanitic is a dialect of Albanian (the UNESCO stance which you reject because it contradicts with your POV) and retract everything I have said about you (such as you promoting Greek extremism) and make a formal apology. If you can't prove this, I will have to insist on using the UNESCO phrasing because Wikipedia policy insists that you have to cite your sources. We simply cannot ignore what UNESCO says and say the exact opposite because you feel like it. I sincerely hope that we can cooperate. If you really do have good faith, I trust that you will. REX 11:13, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I guess I'll provide you the sources and I'll gain a (second) apology. Take care. MATIA 11:15, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

You'll gain it when you've proved that you do have sources. I am a responisble Wikipedian and I am prepared when I am wrong to aknowledge that I am wrong and apologise. REX 11:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Nothing yet? REX 12:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Patience and politeness are two virtues. Perhaps you should exercise them. MATIA 13:47, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, I hope you know that if you cannot find sources and yet proceed by implementing your POV onto the article you will be violating Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. If you find no credible sources I suggest that you withdraw while there is still time. REX 21:18, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Have you checked my proposal on Talk:Arvanites#Fresh_Proposal? REX 14:04, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

You are too hasty. I do suggest to exercise your politeness when you visit my talk page, it'll be an interesting change. I am an honest man and I keep my promises. I told you that I will provide you with sources, and I will. I didn't tell you that I'll give you sources in 5 minutes, or hours. When I'm ready I'll let you know. I'm gonna take a look now at your proposal and I'll probably leave my comment on Talk:Arvanites. MATIA 22:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

rex part 4

Oh MATIA, this is your tactic. Abusing the system. Well both of us can play this game. REX 20:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

a suggestion to REX

Συγκρατήσου, εκτίθεσαι με τις πράξεις σου.

I just saw you voted to delete the template about the name dispute.
I had read before, here on WP, that Encarta refers to the citizens of fYROM as Macedonians Slavs. Where's your encarta zeal?
About 3 or 4 hours before voting, today, you accussed me that I have double standards. I can't help wondering if you are the one who has double standards.

I've asked for protection of Arvanitic language, and you said that you won't change that article. Then you go and vandalize the article about Albanian language. Please lad, think before you act. You offended Arvanites, you offended yourself and now you also offend Tosks and Ghegs with that attitude.
I hope you will correct your errors. MATIA 21:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, that was not vandalism on Albanian language because that edit was backed by reliable sources. As for my vote on the template deletion, I reserve my right to vote whatever I wish. You can't lay down the law by telling me what to vote. Also I will have to ask you to withdraw from forcing your POV on Arvanites. You have yet to cite sources. You will gain the apology you want when you cite sources. You say You offended Arvanites, you offended yourself and now you also offend Tosks and Ghegs with that attitude. That is not your place to say. I implement facts with reliable sources because unlike you, I cite my sources. You cannot say thet the edit on Albanian language was unjustafiable solely because it conflicts with your POV (I cited sources to support my edits on that page. UNESCO, Encarta and Ethnologue). REX 21:19, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

You proved with your vote that you have double standards, or as you would say if you were me: read the Encarta. You can do what you want, vote whatever you want - I never told you what to vote, you can even go in public naked.
Every one is responsible for his actions, that includes me and you.
If you do have Arvanites in you family, they can verify that your actions have offended them too, just ask them. I've read UNESCO's red book, it calls it Arvanitika language. I told you I will bring you many sources, I have gathered some and I'll get more in the next days. As for your formal apology, that you said you would make when I bring the sources, forget it I don't mind at all. You can apologise to your family, after you learn who were the Arvanites. Take care. MATIA 21:43, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

---

MATIA,
I would like to complain about your behaviour. It is now obvious that you have a concerted agenda to promote your Greek POV on Wikipedia. This can be demonstrated by your involvement in articles such as:

• Arvanites
• Republic of Macedonia
• Macedonian Slavs
• etc.

In all of these cases you are promoting what could be perceived as the Greek POV sometimes at the expense of NPOV. This is especially true in the case of Arvanites. It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that Arvanitic is a dialect of Tosk Albanian. Are you saying that UNESCO is wrong in referring to Arvanitic as a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian; that Ethnologue is wrong in referring to Arvanitic as Arvanitika Albanian; and that Encarta is wrong in referring to Arvanitic as a variant of Tosk? You can’t, because these are facts. Why do you object to my proposal so much? Everything that is said in it is true and yet you choose to reject it. If you have even an molecule of good faith you will tell me why you find my proposal so unacceptable. I really want to know. If you don’t tell me, I won’t know what to change so you will accept it and then we can end this tiresome discussion. You have to realise that by rejecting my sources above it will look like we are violating WP policies Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. This is something I will not allow myself to be seen doing.

Also, in the case of me voting in favour of the deletion of the template, you are unfair. I voted in favour of its deletion because I believe that it is unnecessary. That has absolutely nothing to do with what is said on Macedonian Slavs. I happen to believe that these people should be called Macedonian Slavs rather than just Macedonians because the latter is very misleading, unlike the former. Here in England most people do in fact call them Macedonian Slavs on many occasions. As for Encarta saying anythin I didn't know that, I never checked. Anyway, I believe that you were complaining because I didn’t vote the same way that you did. At least 16 people voted in favour of deletion. Would my vote have made any difference?

I hope that you will co-operate with me so that we can end our dispute.

Your friend,

REX, post delivered on 22:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

---

You can do what you want, vote whatever you want - I never told you what to vote, you can even go in public naked.
Every one is responsible for his actions, that includes me and you.

Been there, read that?

I don't care about your vote, it just proves your double standards.

If you don't have something useful to say, don't say it in my talk page.
If you don't understood what I wrote, go ahead and read it again.
My Arvanites friends tell me I have besha (μπέσα), you know the meaning of the word?
And finaly, if you don't know a thing about Arvanites, wait for my sources.

I believe all these are very simple and youll understand them easily. Take care.
MATIA 06:20, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

You have yet to tell me why you are rejecting my proposal. And if you saythat I have double standards, I guess that that makes two of us. REX 09:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Hey

I'm back. Feel free to share your thoughts. Thank you for your kind words on my artwork. --FlavrSavr 14:29, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Republic of Macedonia related articles

Will you please justify your edit on the relevant talk page? Thanks. MATIA 15:46, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

My edit summary explained it. You reverted something as "vandalism" that was not vandalism but a content dispute. I restored the previous version because it was a good-faith edit, but I take no sides in the underlying content dispute. Also, please do not mark edits as minor when they are not. Thank you. Jonathunder 17:13, 2005 September 12 (UTC)

thanks Jonathunder

Thanks for you answer. The fact that they used the term is true. Check the edit's history and the talk pages. You may also find interesting some notes on the Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conflict#some_thoughts. MATIA 17:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Libel

MATIA, I suggest you read Slander and libel as well as Malice (legal term). I never slandered you as a right-wing as you say, I just said I detect right-wing politics (or something like that). I have never called YOU a right-wing. For all you know I could have been referring to someone else. Also, personal attacks are in reference to the person, not content (see Wikipedia:No personal attacks). You should have considered that before making the accusation. That accusation is entirely unjustified. Also, you should know that I don't appreciate wiki-stalking. REX 17:22, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

enough is enough

Are you aware of the greek proverb Τα λόγια σου τα χόρτασα και το ψωμί σου φάτο; (translation: I'm fed up with your words, eat your bread). I'm fed up with your words, calumnies, excuses, everything and I don't want anything from you (keep your bread as the proverb says for yourself, I don't want it). I told you that all the evidence needed for the complaint against you can be found on your contributions, you tell me it is wiki-stalking. I can't even laugh with your distortions of the truth, they are pathetic. MATIA 17:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

What is important that the personal attacks which you mention NEVER occured. Perhaps you should find out what a personal attack is. Nothing I ever did qualifies as a personal attack. You say that proof is on the talk pages. That is a lie. You are trying to convince people that there is something on the talk pages while in reality there isn't. I bet that you cannot produce even one example of my many calumnies as you call them! REX 17:44, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you stop exposing yourself, the kids are yelling: The king is naked! MATIA 17:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

You cannot provide examples of personal attacks can you? That is because they don't exist. If you provide one of my quotes which qualifies as a personal attack I will acknowledge it and retract it with a full apology. You can't though. Because you are lying. No such quotes exist. Are you sure that your friends call you a besha. I believe that they should call you a gënjeshtar. I reflects reality! REX 18:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

REX is an Albanian Chronographos 19:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC) (a reminder for MATIA)

Wikipedia Policy

MATIA, I'm afraid that it is you who are POV pushing. I am trying to make the article reflect reality. UNESCO says what I want to say. There is no evidence to even suggest that you want the article to say. I suggest you read Wikipedia policy because you are in violation of it. If you persist, you shall be reported. REX 20:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Then you 'd better report me before I report you, vandal! MATIA 14:51, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

84.254.3.47's IP is from Greece. You can see his Contributions if you like. REX 15:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I verify that this anonymous contribution is mine. I always sign my contributions and this was an accident - I don't edit anonymously but something went wrong with my signing in. I must also note that this is a dynamic IP. My proposal to User:REX to report me as vandal or whatever else he might find appropriate is valid. MATIA 11:29, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

npa

is it really a personal attack to call someone a troll after he repeatedly associated me with nazis? Is there a word that could describe that behaviour, the double standards and the circular logic, that is not a p.a.? MATIA 15:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

While it may be accurate, it doesn't help to get an encyclopedia written. If you respond to a troll in any way it takes the discussion away from the subject of the article and focusses attention on you and the other person. I'm asking you to avoid making things worse. Stick to discussing edits, and try to maintain civility, even in the face of attacks. I don't claim it's easy, but I assure you that it will have better results. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 15:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Re:beware the greeks

Hello, MATIA. I have already told you that I doubt about editing anything related about my ethnic group. I mean, when the very name of the ethnic group is in question here on WP, how can I be sure that nobody would change "Milcho Manchevski is a Macedonian director" into "Milcho Manchevski is a Macedonian Slav director."? So, by default, even those articles would be a matter of dispute.

I believe that all the evidence shows that the "Macedonian Slavs" as a term is not appopriate, and in breach of several Wikipedia policies, and this is unbelievably evident. (This is my POV, we can ofcourse, disagree on the relevant talk page). I beleive that a name of an ethnic group is a fundamental arch of the identity of a people, and neutral admins should approach this problem more seriously. Therefore, I will require a Mediation, if nobody disagrees.

As for the question why this term is offensive, I think I've answered you: because it is not our name. It is an anachronism that we feel is intended to present us as less than a nation, an amorphous mass of "Slavs" somehow alien to the region. There is a similar example with the Bosniaks, they have rejected the term Bosnian Muslims as an ethnic denominator. There's nothing offensive about the Muslim and the Slav term, they are offensive when they are used to describe a modern nation. It is really rude to label people against their will.

Also, it is rather absurd to speak about Slavs (as an ethnicity) in the 21st century. You cannot deny 14 centuries of mixing with the other inhabitants of the region (ancient and latercomers) - Ancient Macedonians, Greeks, Thracians, Turks, Aromanians...god knows what else, really. It was a natural thing for my nation to identify itself by the region it inhabited.

I don't deny the right of the other inhabitants of this region to identify themselves as Macedonians. I don't believe that an ethnic group called Macedonians is a threat to their identity. Similarly, the plethora of American and Canadian towns called Athens, do not deny the right of the inhabitants of the capital of Greece to identify themselves as Athenians. Of course, I think that in this point, the differences between our opinions differ much, but we can always Agree to Disagree.

As for Miskin's paragraph, I must admit that you have really pissed me off. Miskin barely hides his racist attitude towards my ethnic group. I basically have 3 problems with the paragraph:

• It's a prescriptive paragraph, because it tells the reader what should or shoudln't find offensive in the text, completely ignoring the fact that most Macedonians find the term offensive
• The statements of the politicians are clearly taken out of their context. Their ethnic self-identification is Macedonian, and not Macedonian Slav
• It's sole purpose on the opening paragraph is to justify the use of the "Macedonian Slavs" term

I think that the statements should be included in a separate part or article dealing the naming controversy. This part or article would speak specifically about the Macedonian/Macedonian Slav naming controversy.

As for the double standards, etc... I really don't remember me making that accusations? I think that your support for Miskin's paragraph was a mistake, but I really don't remember accusing you of far-right nationalism? --FlavrSavr 01:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

rex part 7

Wanna learn more about the appaling state of Human Rights in Greece FlavrSavr? Get a load of these:

• Greece: Report on the Macedonian minority
• Greece: Inhuman refusal of entry and denaturalization of ethnic Macedonians in Greece
• Macedonian diaspora leaders met UN envoy Matthew Nimetz

And there's more:

• ANOTHER Helsinki Report
• A Human Rights Watch Report about the scandalous bevahious of the Greek authorities who fancy themselves as Europeans!
• EUROPEAN COMMISSION AGAINST RACISM AND INTOLERANCE SECOND REPORT ON GREECE
• Council of Europe on Human Rights in Greece

Honestly, if Greece wants to call herself European, then she will have to observe the European Convention on Human Rights. At time like this I'm so happy that I'm not in Greece and being subject to gross inhuman RACIST Human Rights violations. It is so nice here in the United Kingdom where the European Charter has been incorporated into domestic law Human Rights Act 1998. The Greeks are RACISTS! REX 13:47, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I am also happy that you're not in Greece.--Theathenae 13:51, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Then that makes two of us Δεαθήναι. I mean, who would want to live in a little tin-pot country in the remotest part of Europe with a lower standard of living than say the UK (Oops, that's not very PC, sorry about that) country which doesn't repect basic Human Rights? REX 14:00, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you would rather live in your homeland Albania, then? Its inhabitants do enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the Third World, after all. Now that I mention it, why did you leave in the first place?--Theathenae 14:15, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

That's something he will never answer, for obvious reasons: I believe the concept is called Human trafficking (εμπόριο λευκής σαρκός in Greek) Chronographos 17:15, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Mmmm! At least Albania recognises its minorities, such as the Aromanians. Gee, what does that tell us? REX 14:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

That it is ranked barely 72^nd on the UN Human Development Index and Greece is a healthy 24^th, just 9 notches below the UK which you consider so superior? In fact, the The Economist's more comprehensive 2005 quality-of-life index has Greece ranked 22^nd and Britain a paltry 29^th.[1] It is small wonder then that both Albanians and Britons have flocked to Greece in their tens of thousands in recent years, to be oppressed and have their basic human rights violated, no doubt.--Theathenae 14:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should compare the suicide rate too. Suicide is by definition the best index if one wants to measure whether people feel that their life is worth living. Last time I looked, a Briton was more than two times as likely to commit suicide than a Greek. Chronographos 15:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

But, each and every life is worth living. Yet, someone must find the ability to use his brain, and understand that living is not something easy but something that nees courage, guts and a lot of work. +MATIA ☎ 16:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Brains? Courage? Work? Isn't this a tall order to ask of REX? Chronographos 16:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I believe he is too young and he has all the time in the world to do things better. What I'd like to see right away is proofs of good faith regarding co-operation in WP. And I don't think that reporting him will do any good, but I'll probably do it eventually. +MATIA ☎ 17:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

He is lying through his teeth all the time. Can't help it either. For all we know, he is a single teenage mother of four living on welfare and seething with rage. Chronographos 17:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I think he is 13 or 14 years old. And I think he may had rough time while in school, but that's the story for the majority of the school kids. +MATIA ☎ 17:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

You are assuming he did attend school. While this is an entirely reasonable assumption, it is not necessarily true. Chronographos 17:22, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Ανεκδοτάκι

Ανέκδοτο που μου 'στειλε ένας φίλος Ελληνοσουδανός που γεννήθηκε Χαρτούμ αλλά μένει Αθήνα εδώ και χρόνια:

Einai enas pelargos kai kouvalaei enan gero 80 xronwn!

Kapoia stigmi gyrnaei o geros kai leei ston pelargo:

"Ela malaka! Paradeksou oti xathikame..."!--Theathenae 14:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Ακόμα γελάω! :)
+MATIA ☎ 16:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Re Just a note

Hi Matia, I've relied to your nice "note" on my talk page ;-) Paul August ☎ 17:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! +MATIA ☎ 17:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Theotokos

I checked the edits to Theotokos over the last month, and the only thing I saw that was really removed was a link to the Immaculate Conception in the "See Also" section. I don't have a terribly strong opinion one way or the other whether that link is there, I wasn't the one to remove it. You can add it in if you think it's important. (shrug) Wesley 16:18, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I didn't delete the section

What to do? It has to be arbcom I'm afraid. I wasn't kidding when I said this was outside the juristiction of admins. We can't block for personal attacks (for a list of what we can block for see Wikipedia:Blocking policy). Sometimes when a disspute hasn't been going on for to long an admin can go in and sort things out but in this disspute has gone well beyond that.Geni 21:37, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

rex part 8

Aha! That's what MATIA is seeking. Well, you have little right to demand remedies for breach of Wikipedia policy. I may have partially broken Wikipedia policies such as Wikipedia:No personal attacks, but you have broken many more policies such as Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Cite sources, Wikipedia:NPOV and you have on many occassions commited Wikipedia:Vandalism and also in Wiki-Stalking and POV-Pushing. I have told you. When you provide sources (eg a weblink), like I did, UNESCO had no ambigutites, it clearly said that Arvanitic is a dialect of Tosk, plain and clear; then I will by all means accept your proposals. Perhaps it is you that should be blocked, not I! REX 21:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

REX unless you learn manners you are not welcome in my talk page. I've read your lies before, it's more that boring to repeat them. I have also told you before that you can report me. Go ahead and find all the evidence you can, though I really doubt anyone can find me violating WP principles, because I respect WP. +MATIA ☎ 22:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

REX's calumnies against me

Some of those were previously there

• stating I don't want to be called far-right-anything
  • 17:14, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
  • 19:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
  • 13:48, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
• being called a far-right-something
  • 14:59, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
  • 12:23, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
  • 11:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
• being called a nazi - plain-vanilla
  • 23:14, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

---

About fonts

Further to your query on my talk page, I can see both of those and to me they look identical. Kind regards, jguk 12:02, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right that what I put should be replaced with something else - I just don't know which one's best though - maybe you could plump for one and see how it goes, jguk 12:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I hadn't noticed that English wasn't your first language. You guessed what I meant though:) jguk 12:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, after your change, I can't make out the capital alpha. I can see the two accented epsilons though, which before today I couldn't, jguk 12:28, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

It appears the font templates are out of action today, as neither IPA nor Polytonic characters are displaying correctly. I'd say go back to the spelling with the ψιλή before the alpha and sit and wait until the polytonic template is back online.--Theathenae 12:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Both Ἀ and Ἀ look ok in my browser (even right now). +MATIA ☎ 12:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

You're right, I can't see either of those. Since my browser is the most common one, Internet Explorer, it's important that it changes so that it's readable on it, jguk 13:15, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Must be just me then. In that case I think the polytonic orthography is more appropriate for Alexander's name in Greek. After all, he was born and died well before 1982 and PASOK! :)--Theathenae 12:46, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Any browser (including MSIE) can be configured to display utf8 correctly, and those two templates (named unicode and polytonic) were written mainly for MSIE support - on Gecko based browsers the things may be better.

As for orthography, you sure made a point Theathenae :) +MATIA ☎ 15:45, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm

Hello MATIA, I see you've been active since FlavrSavr asked for your consent to mediation on Talk:Macedonian Slavs and I see you've failed to respond (for whatever reasons you had). I would like to get the Arvanites dispute over with. I am getting very tired and it's not doing me any good. Please read through my sources and come up with a proposal, we'll amend any faulty points (if any) and pass it. REX 22:54, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

FlavrSavr is a very decent man and I have told him before what I think regarding Macedonian Slavs, you might have noticed it while wiki-stalking me. +MATIA ☎ 23:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, why are you denying the Arvanites of Epirus their right to be called Shqiptar. It is their will, they are Arvanites, the Helsinki Report says so. REX 23:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

a) that report is biased and b) there's not even one Arvanitis who self-identifies as Shqiptar. If you were an Arvanitis you would know that. But Arvanites don't have the right to exist according to User:REX, they must be called and identified as Albanians. Nor do they have the right to call Arvanitika a language. User:REX denies their basic human rights and calls anyone who has respect for them far right extremist. Unfortunately REX continues his attacks and this time he directly and literally associates me with nazis what next MATIA, you will ship all the Arvanites of Epirus to Auschwitz on his edit summary. +MATIA ☎ 23:25, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, who do you think you are dismissing that report as biased? What next: UNESCO is biased for calling Arvanitic a dialect of Tosk, or Ethnologue is biased for calling it Arvanitika Albanian. I don't know who you think you are. You reject sources. Should we accept your word instead? Not a chance. I suggest you read Wikipedia:Verifiability. The Helsinki report says that Arvanites of Epirus call themselves Shqiptar even if you don't like it. REX 23:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I know who I am and I am not a nazi - this was the last drop. NO MORE CALUMNIES AGAINST ME. +MATIA ☎ 23:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

STOP behaving like one then. Who do you think you are by dismissing a legitimate repors as biased and denying the Arvanites of Northwes Greece to call themselves whatever they want. Do they need MATIA to tell them what they can and cannot do. Observe Wikipedia policy, you have no right to complain about me until you do. REX 23:44, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Arvanites don't have rights THEY MUST BE CALLED ALBANIANS.
MATIA doesn't have RIGHTS. REX TOLD US SO.
This is what the System requires.
+MATIA ☎ 23:46, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

All right MATIA, let's take this to Arbitration. Let's see if they think that the Helsinki Report is biased. REX 23:52, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

OBEY REX NOW! +MATIA ☎ 23:53, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

You can sneer at me if you wish MATIA, just know that you have been exposed and I have complained about you, logged out of course so that you can't engage in your favorite tactic: Wiki-Stalking. Excuse me now Your Highness, I have other things to be getting on with ... REX 00:04, 2 October 2005 (UTC)