Talk:Kemono

(NOTICE: The first draft of this article is primarily a gaikokujin view of kemono, albeit a view based on years of exposure to the subject. If you have more precise cultural insights, please refine this article to the best of your ability with all neutrality.)

Possibly, but generally I think Wiki articles should be written to inform people without any prior knowledge about the subject, whatsoever. 85.226.122.237 01:17, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Distinction

I think there should be a better explanation of the differences between "furry", "funny animal" and "kemono"...

I would, if I knew more about "funny animal". I think Japan has had a longer uninterrupted cultural tradition of anthropomorphism, particularly in mythology. Western mythology doesn't have nearly as much as this, perhaps in part because it was once considered blasphemous. Most of the "furry" scene developed from funny animals, but mature Japanese anthropomorphism has been around for millennia. It's part of the lore, not a fetish, and is usually portrayed in far more human and humanoid terms than Western notions like werewolves and talking cats. Japanese anthropomorphism has a far more intersocial portrayal than the common Western horror-story portrayal of a wild feral animal who walks on two legs, or of a human who abandons civilization and embraces culturally amoral animalistic ways. Japanese kemono art can be seen wearing human clothes and shoes, and acting perfectly like just another human, other than appearance underneath the clothes. It's hard to explain in any clearer terms than that (my communication handicap may be part of it). Having spent lots of time seeing both "kemono" and "furry", I know emphatically that they are fundamentally different, with different connotations and different cultural origins. It is true that sometimes a Japanese kemono artist attempting English will see the more immediate similarities on English-language websites and think of the term "furry" as a translation of "kemono". And I meet just as many other webmasters and posts on message boards who are unsatisfied with this simplistic equation, and truly see the genres as fundamentally different. I have also met Western "furry" enthusiasts who absolutely loathe the Japanese kemono art tradition and prefer that it was not associated with "furry" (I know that one of the former webmasters of Yerf held this view). If all these concepts were just to be considered variations of the same, then we would need only one article, anthropomorphism. But the fact is that they are separate genres with separate statistics and separate common motivations, and that's why they are in separate articles. - Gilgamesh 04:02, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well said, and I second this suggestion. (I myself am not qualified to make the edits to the article however and maintain NPOV, so I'll just voice my support here....) - 67.184.30.165 19:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Removal of most comparisons to furry fandom, plus suggestions for more edits

I removed most of the "unlike furry fandom...," "like furry fandom...," etc. from this article because it treated the reader as if s/he had previous knowledge of furry fandom but not kemono. There was a whole section of the article that existed just to say pornography was uncommon in kemono in comparison to furry. If people want to learn about furry, they will visit the furry fandom article--I have added it to the "See also" and it is mentioned briefly in the Internet section, for interested parties. This article still needs more editing--particularly, someone with cultural insight (someone from Japan who is familiar with the genre) should add some information (possibly including a history section). Is the name "kemono" a modern word or were ancient images referred to as kemono? Is this a term used by professional artists or only amateurs on the Internet? Is there an organized "fandom" surrounding kemono as with furry fandom? What cultural associations does kemono have? These are questions that could all be answered in this article, but unfortunately I haven't the expertise on Japanese culture to do it. --Krishva 21:30, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Japanese I will answer it. This term is now in a process of establishment in net community and Otaku culture. It may be considered the word refers approximately the same as furry with an aspect of a meaning. Amongst a word of "Kemono", "ke" means hair (fur) and "mono" means a thing. They write this term in katakana in a Japanese online subculture to give another meaning. Nowadays, It is likely that there is nothing but ケモノ the word referring to Furry in subcultural meanings. Howe'er, a different thing between an English area and a Japanese area is that they haven't founded a certain fandam and aren't so accepted in the latter, whereas a Furry fandam is formed firmly in the former. Therefore I cannot explain what is Furry fandom with one word in Japanese language.220.102.155.139 08:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to find information about the Buddhist food laws, where I thought 'Kemono' was from (there's something about Rabbits not being kemono, and therefore kosher to eat?), but this entry is just about 'japanese furry artists'? 203.14.156.192 20:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe it's the exact opposite. Animals that "walk" the earth are bad but acceptable, flying animals are no-go. Rabbits enter the "flying animals" category because of a linguistic glitch - "to jump/skip" and "to fly" both use the same verb, tobu. This still persists, and you'll have difficulty finding rabbit on any Japanese menu. I'm not sure if the concept of kemono even applies to the debate here. TomorrowTime 03:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

REQ: more History

It's just an idea but won't it be interesting viewing Kemono on a historical base?

At odds to self

Just a small observation, but the links section, the Kemono in popular entertainment and the Kemono on the Internet sections seem to be at odds to one another.

The "on the internet" section states These artists are predominantly male and draw mostly masculine characters and illustrations, female kemono characters can be seen, but they usually have only marginal kemono features such as animal ears but the games, movies and the like it lists, as well as the links at the end, have very high proportions of female kemono, and the females in most instances are as animal-like as their male counterparts. Although the former is referring to amature artists as opposed to professional products, it does give an impression Kemono is primarily masculine characters.

Maybe the Kemono on the Internet section needs revising, or historical updates to the term should be added, ie. how in the past it used to be primarily male, but now has a much wider use.

I agree. Actually most instances of modern kemono I've seen in anime, manga, video games, and on the web (even amateur art) have been of females (even excluding catgirls). Only rarely have I seen animal-like (kemono) males. I admit, though, that I have a pretty narrow perspective on the subject. This article really needs an editor who is knowledgeable about kemono, preferably a native Japanese. -kotra 09:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the point of the Kemono on the Internet section at all.

"Many amateur kemono artists maintain personal websites that showcase their artwork."—sure, amateur artists in general do that.

"These artists are predominantly male ..."—this and the following sentences seem to stem from the editor's personal preferences in the sites he views; while I don't know if the artists are predominantly male, I do know that kemono art isn't mostly masculine, and that female kemono characters are not just the kemonomimi type. The editor's user page mentions that he's gay, which is fine of course, but would certainly explain the bias.

"Kemono artists tend to be very protective of their copyrights"—how's that different from any other artist? Many Japanese fanartists' websites link to the Online Fanarts Protection page, and from what I've seen, American fanartists are pretty protective of their art too. This is nothing specific to kemono artists. The rest of that paragraph is nothing kemono artist-specific either.

"... kemono and furry fandom on the Internet can occasionally overlap ..."—OK, this paragraph is pretty good... just remove the "on the Internet". The paragraph then no longer has anything to do with "Kemono on the Internet", and should be moved elsewhere.

Also, I agree with 220.102.143.10's comment that the external links to artists should just go. 208.180.124.100 06:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Kemono in other visual arts?

Does kemono exist in visual arts outside of manga and anime? If so, is it still called kemono? The reason I ask is to determine if Category:Japanese visual arts is redundant or not, with Category:Anime and manga terminology already there. -kotra 06:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Scratch amateur artist site.

Such external links is only a mere advertisement of the amateur site. 220.102.143.10 01:25, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I would tend to agree. However, I think it's acceptable lacking a common external indexing service we can find. - Gilgamesh 19:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

But Wikipedia is not a web directory WP:EL. Links to FANG and Kemonosearch are enough. 208.180.124.100 00:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

No contest. - Gilgamesh 00:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Magic Knights Rayearth (and Tsubasa Chronicle), Cardcaptor Sakura, Tenchi Muyo?

Since the 'mekyo' little guy does speak fluently, the same with Kero, and in Tenchi Ryo-ohki takes on a human form and wears clothes, would they count, or do they require all the attributes? Tyciol 05:00, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Usagi Yojimbo

What the hell, no mention of Usagi Yojimbo? it's a direct modern translation of the very kind of traditional painting featured in this article, for christ's sake. I'm adding it to the list, but I think it deserves much better coverage

Usagi Yojimbo is an American comic, not a manga. True, the creator Stan Sakai is a third-generation Japanese American and the series takes place in an alternate Edo Period Japan, but it's definitely an American comic. Kemono is Japanese. I'm removing Usagi Yojimbo from the list, with a note. -kotra 01:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, most of the ones mentioned in the video games/anime section are not kemono...

For instance, Elws are not anthromorphic or part-animal. They are elves.

Actually, that's a misconception. While long-lived, the Elw have long drooping animal ears, similar to the demi-humans in Xenogears and Chrono Cross. Also, unlike elves, the long life of Elw is based on their harmony with the planet. - Gilgamesh 15:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Kemono -> Kemonomimi

Should we consider kemonomimi a subgenre of kemono, or a different one? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.83.9.125 (talk) 16:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

It seems a fan of this style would already know the answer to this question. Or are styles being categorized and named at the whim of Wikipedians? Comme le Lapin 07:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Timeline?

Curious - how far back does this style go? What are the earliest examples, and when can this style be said to have begun? Or is this just a recent phenomenon? --Reverend Loki 01:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

>Kemono-Taiheiki, a work of Japanese art from the Muromachi period. About 500 years or so at least, judging by that bit of info. Too bad the whole article focuses on furries instead of the mythological aspect behind Kemono art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iguanaray (talk • contribs) 16:12, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

furries

Considering the fact that the whole Kemono thing has been part of the Japanese lore for millennia, I really don't think this article should focus on linking it to Western furry fandom. Why would you want to link Japanese mythology to a creepy Internet fetish?

Just look at the links; they're nothing but Japanese furry porn galleries. I actually expected more insight into the cultural aspect of the whole Kemono thing and all I got was a face full of Digimon dick girl porn. And people wonder why Wikipedia is never taken seriously.

Also, the picture should be renamed. Why "Japanese_traditional_furry_art2.jpg"? The concept of "furry" didn't even exist back then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iguanaray (talk • contribs) 15:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up. I removed two of the three links, that appeared to be just artists' personal websites, which don't have much informative content. The third, a portal website for modern "kemono" art, seems marginally helpful to gain an understanding of modern kemono art, so I didn't remove it. More academic links would be better, though.

As for kemono's relation to the furry fandom. I don't know much about this topic, but I'm guessing there are two meanings of the word "kemono". One meaning is the pre-modern stuff, like the "Kemono-Taiheiki" image. This would be comparable to "Talking animal" or "Funny animal" in English. The other meaning (which may be more commonly used) is the modern stuff, which includes art that looks like "furry" stuff to you. That similarity to the furry fandom is why it was linked in the See also section: it probably would be discussed in the prose, were this a perfect, comprehensive article. So I've re-added the Furry fandom link as per WP:SEEALSO. But if you have any particular insight in the area of kemono that I don't have, feel free to correct me, I'm just making an educated guess as to its meaning. This article isn't very helpful yet. -kotra (talk) 23:10, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I just think there should be a clear distinction between pre-modern artwork done by true artists and oekaki pictures of Digimon characters performing fellatio on Sonic the Hedgehog. Thanks to the file name of the Kemono-Taiheiki image and the way the article was written, someone in the picture's talk page actually thought they had "furry" fetishists in the Muromachi period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iguanaray (talk • contribs) 23:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

First of all, "furry fandom" and "furry" do not equal "furry fetishist". This shouldn't need to be explained since our article on the furry fandom is just a click away. Secondly, in my glance through those three links (two removed since) I did not see "Digimon dick girl porn" or "oekaki pictures of Digimon characters performing fellatio on Sonic the Hedgehog". Perhaps you did. I suppose that's irrelevant, though, since two of the links are gone now, and if such content is still found by way of the third link, maybe that's because it actually is an example of "kemono" art. As for the IP that commented on the image's talk page, he or she was probably trolling. I don't think the uploader was a "furry trying to explain their 'fandom'". Judging by his/her contributions, he/she appears to be a Japanese person, using what they thought was the English word for "kemono". I don't think it's a problem, but you're welcome to reupload the image under a different name and delete the original, making sure to update the links wherever it's used. Thirdly, there may be a distinction between the two eras of kemono, as I described earlier, but it seems that the same word, "kemono", is used for both types. The old paintings and the new digitally-drawn cartoons both seem to use the word "kemono". This may be a case where the word "kemono" is not describing a specific art style or particular artistic movement, but a broader artistic device, analogous to anthropomorphism. I think this is probably the case. Perhaps the word "kemono" has been used by modern Japanese fans of cartoony anthropomorphic animals to describe their particular genre of art, much like "anthropomorphic" has been used by furries for the same purpose. This is all speculation, though, and until we get some reliable sources to back this up, I don't advocate making any major changes to the article. -kotra (talk) 04:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

As a point of order, I originally didn't want to point specifically to porno sites. I had a small list of links here to distinguished artists. But it was not only link-farming, but I was informed back then that Wikipedia is not censored. If anyone can find other website guides/directories that are more satisfactory than the link that's currently there (which BTW I didn't choose, except for the Kemono Community FANG site which is aging and barely-updated anymore), then feel free to add it. As for the furry fandom thing, even though kemono art is much much older, most kemono artists today are very familiar with the furry fandom, and many cooperate extensively with it. As for the porn thing, well, it's modern Japan. It's an ubiquitous aspect of everyday life in Japan. You can see men reading hentai comics in broad daylight just about anywhere. - Gilgamesh (talk) 04:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't necessarily "Digimon dick girl porn", just generic hentai of Digimon and Pokemon characters. It's not like I was going to stare at it just so I could post a detailed, accurate description here. Plus, I honestly don't think Muromachi period artists should be compared to people who draw hentai comics of anthropomorphic cartoon characters. I'm sure there are other, more serious Japanese artists that still paint things containing characters with animal features - I don't think Japanese Digimon fan artists who draw Deviantart collabs with Western furries and consider it "kemono" are all that's left of the whole style. I'm sure no one will ever look into that sort of thing though, since this is Wikipedia and the only kinds of people an article like this will ever attract are anime fans and furries.

I don't really feel like editing anything; I just wanted to point out what a nerdy mess this article turned out to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iguanaray (talk • contribs) 00:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Judging by the Japanese article on the subject (awful machine translation here), it sounds like this article is basically on track, except the Japanese version doesn't seem to mention anything before the modern era (though my Japanese is very poor, so I may be wrong there). Furries, "furverts" (a rarely-used term in English anymore) and hentai-type stuff are all discussed in their article. Basically, it seems like their "kemono" encompasses our terms "furry", "animal mascot/fursuit", and "funny animal". This is all original research on my part, though. -kotra (talk) 23:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, the fact that it's Japanese doesn't raise that article's credibility too much. It could have might as well been written by a Western furry with Japanese as a second language; it is, after all, still an encyclopedia that virtually anyone can edit and the whole "furry" concept is only popular in the West. Their "furry fandom" article (which the Kemono one links) seems like a copy of the Western one (even containing the exaxt same generic piece of furry artwork done by a Western Wikipedia user, no less), which only serves to promote my theory.

The other half of the Kemono article seems to be a list of video game and anime series that are considered "kemono" by the writer. It even lists Pokemon, Hamtaro, Sgt. Keroro and Monster Hunter of all things - calling those "furry" in the Western sense would be completely insane.

Isn't "Kemono" basically Japan's word for "beast"? The fact that it was used in paintings 500 years ago leads me to believe that it's just a Japanese word that has been very recently adopted by what could be described as Japanese furries to label their "artwork" and subculture, much like the word "furry" has various English meanings. Either that or the "furry fandom" parts of the article were in fact written by a Westerner - it's not much of a stretch.