Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pornography

"Roughies" revisited, and "Nudie-cuties"

If anyone is interested in writing on the historical American porn genres of "Nudie-cuties" and "Roughies" (I'm pretty sure Russ Meyer worked in both genres early in his career), I've just come across this, perhaps, useful quote in my Japanese studies. "Coincidentally, rise of the eroductions occurred almost parallel with that of the American "nudie-cuties" (i.e., harmless naturist and peekaboo flicks), the more innocent forerunners of the "roughies". Roughies lived up to their nickname by sexploiting not only teasy nudity but - almost without exception - sadism and rape, usually of women. Main difference between Japanese and American genres was the latter's filmmakers could eventually reveal unlimited amounts of pubic hair/genitalia..." {{cite journal |last=Fentone|first=Steve|year=1998|title=A Rip of the Flesh: The Japanese 'Pink Film' Cycle|journal=She|volume=2|issue=11|pages=p.5}}

Abbywinters.com

Until a few minutes ago, the article on the porn website Abbywinters.com was in Category:Photographers. I've since fixed that; however, while the article was purporting to be about a photographer, it underwent a set of suspicious-looking edits that drew my attention: see its recent editing history. In brief, after my restoration of much deleted material (or my unthinking reintroduction of rightly deleted junk), much of the article is now a description of the website, "sourced" to the website itself (i.e. from direct observation, or "OR" if you will), and much of the rest is about some criticism of it in somebody's blog. The whole affair looks eminently AfD-worthy to me, but I know nothing about the relative noteworthiness of porn websites. Neither that article nor this project page is not on my watchlist; it's all yours. -- Hoary (talk) 08:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Award in major magazine

Is winning Penthouse pet of the month (or similar e.g. Playboy Playmate of the month) generally considered an award in a major magazine? My gut feeling is it isn't (pet of the year, yeah sure) but would appreciate feedback from those more familiar with pornography related issues. The reason I ask is because it came up in the Ginger Jolie where some people assert she's notable for being pet of the month, but so far I'm not seeing evidence of notability from coverage in reliable secondary sources. Nil Einne (talk) 10:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Back, a couple years at least, when User:Joe Beaudoin Jr. and others were hashing out the criteria for WP:PORNBIO, before it got folded into WP:PEOPLE, the inclusion criteria specifically stated that Playmate and Pet of the Month were both awards from major magazines. If I'm not mistaken, Hustler Honey was included in the earlier versions of the criteria. There was even some discussion about why only American magazines were being used as examples. I can't find that version of the criteria now because I think, if I'm looking at this correctly, that page was deleted before the redirect to WP:PEOPLE was put in. (See my second response below) And I seem to recall that when PORNBIO got folded into PEOPLE, the specific awards/magazines got edited out when the criteria was copied over to PEOPLE. As for why, I have no idea. I wasn't able to find any discussion about leaving them out during the transition.

As for my own opinion, Playmate and Pet are rather different awards. Playmate is always (going from memory, I've had a subscription and have collected back issues for years) bestowed on an unknown model that the magazine finds themselves (either when photographers find them or when women send in their photos) or on models who may have just done some local modeling. Playmates sometimes go on to do some acting, bikini modeling and such, or for the most part go to school to become nurses, photographers, real estate agents, etc. and hardly ever go on to do hardcore pornography. I can think of only two that have done this. Teri Weigel being one and the second name escapes me right now. So for the most part, being a Playmate isn't just a modeling gig. Pet on the other hand is aimed more at women who want to be or already are in the pornography business. The number of women who go into hardcore porn after being Pet is far greater. For them it seems to be more of a jumping off point to get into the porn business. And seems to be more like just another modeling gig. For instance, Silvia Saint had already won an AVN Award (1997) before she was Pet of the Month (1998).

And finally, being a Playmate has a scientific impact. At least three studies [1], [2], [3] have been done using the measurements of Playmates for their data sets.

If you'd like to go over some of the past Playmate AFDs, I've started putting together a collection here. Dismas|^(talk) 07:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is where the "of the Month" criteria was removed from the guideline without discussion. Dismas|^(talk) 05:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks to me as though AnonEMouse was just copyeditting the text, rather than changing the criteria. I think he assumed people would know that a "feature of the month" would count as a magazine award. The criteria should probably be made more clearer. Epbr123 (talk) 09:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not doubting his intentions. But it introduced a grey area as to whether "of the Month" is enough. Dismas|^(talk) 12:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I intend to clarify the wording of WP:PORNBIO to indicate that "of the Month" is enough. Could people here first confirm there is consensus for this? Epbr123 (talk) 19:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources

I think we need to establish which sources are reliable for porn star articles. I've listed some of the most commonly used sources below, so if we can gain consensus on whether each one is reliable, maybe we can write a guideline at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography page.

1. Interviews at lukeisback.com
2. Cited material at lukeisback.com, eg. [4] (currently used in the Jenna Jameson FA)
3. AVN.com
4. AInews.com
5. XBiz.com
6. Interviews at Rogreviews.com, eg. [5]
7. Biographical info at iafd.com, eg. [6]
8. Adultdvdempire.com
9. Adultfyi.com, eg. [7]
10. XFanz.com, eg. [8]
11. Excaliburfilms.com, eg. [9]
12. Eros-ny.com
13. Pornvalleynews.com
14. Gamelink.com, eg. [10]

Epbr123 (talk) 13:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• • Could you give me some time to think about this and respond? I was away in Berlin for the Venus show when you posted this question and I'm surprised no one else from the project has chimed in. Morbidthoughts (talk) 14:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes, sorry. Your opinion would be very valuable. Epbr123 (talk) 14:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I missed seeing this on my watchlist (at least not until Morbid chimed in), but I'll do some thinking on it as well... some of them are clearly (IMO) reliable (e.g., AVN which I believe at least one mainstream source has called the trade magazine) and others are less so. Tabercil (talk) 16:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Right. There's a lot there to chew over so I'll take this in chunks, so expect multiple posts on the topic.

• AVN is reliable period since it's the leading industry trade magazine. The New York Times called it "the Variety of the US porn industry" ([11])
• XBiz and AInews look like they aim to be similar to AVN in that they focus on the news, so I'd say they can be considered reliable.
• IAFD should be treated exactly the same as IMDB.
• Eros-NY is an e-zine (as stated here). As such they'd be the same as reliable as any other ezine such as Salon. (And speaking of Eros, has anyone checked to see if the links to it still work?)
• Gamelink & Excalibur are highly suspect in my eyes, if only because I don't readily see where they'd get their info from...
• Xfanz is owned by the same people as XBiz, so I'm tempted to say it'd be reliable. What do we use this for? Just the news stories??

More as I have a chance to mull over the other sites. Tabercil (talk) 22:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll have to do it in chunks too.

• First, from interacting with both staff, I would say XBIZ and by extension XFanz is more reliable than AVN. XBIZ clearly denotes whenever something is a press release and its own articles are not just mere fluff. I trust the writers there more than AVN.
• My problem with AVN, especially when it comes to notability issues, is that they write articles on and review movies from companies in which they take advertisement dollars from, which sometimes leads to COI and independence issues. I also view their staff as being less competent (prone to much more turnover) than XBIZ. Their awards are also subject to politics.
• I help run IAFD so I won't offer an opinion on its reliability. People can submit additions and corrections (but it should be adequately sourced if there's a conflict) but we have to approve it and sometimes we go to 2257 information on hand to confirm things like birthdate and height. The addition of movies into the database relies on existing reviews so numbers of DVDs that are actually underreported. We also once checked what IMDB is doing by having a fake movie for a performer in the database and sure enough, it showed up in IMDB quickly after.
• Luke Ford is simply unacceptable. Too many accusations of selective editing and publishing of interviews from the subject. I wouldn't trust any cited sources from him without checking it myself and then I would cite to that source rather than him.
• Gamelink, Excalibur, Eros-NY, ADEmpire are vendor sites that I don't consider reliable.
• I know Rog personally and now he doesn't edit out his interview unless the subject asks him to not publish something. He's technically self-published but his interviews tend not to be controversial either.
• Gene Ross (Adultfyi) and Gram Ponante are both former managing editors of AVN which lends to the theory that they are experts under WP:SPS. However, I don't view Gene as being any more reliable than Luke but Gram is okay even though he's not as funny as he thinks he is.
• AINEWs, I don't know Steve Nelson (the owner) that well but their site seems to be mostly press releases. If it came down to an issue of notability, I would not accept AINews.
• AdultDVDTalk blog interviews. I know the interviewer well and he's actually a published music critic in his normal job. He's too lazy to edit his interviews and it's mostly fluff anyway, so there's not much controversy in using them.
• Pornvalley news is a self-published blog with no editorial oversight run by a guy named Ray.
• The Naughty American of course is run by Naughty America. I wouldn't take their articles too seriously but they rarely post anything controversial either.

Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• Huh. I didn't know that about IAFD checking back to 2257 records. How often do you do that, always/sometimes/rarely?? Because if you're doing it frequently enough, then the birth date and height info for starlets caught up in the post-2257 records could be considered accurate, and that would be from when... post 1995? Tabercil (talk) 13:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

When we mention Luke Ford, there are several possibilities we have to consider: the person by the same name, the people who own and run the original lukeford.com site, and the new owner of lukeisback.com. The last I'll state as being probably the most reliable; the interviews in XCitement magazine (which counts as a published source) are all conducted by Cindi Loftus and she's the new owner of lukeisback.com. Tabercil (talk) 12:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• The most frequent reason for IAFD to go to the 2257 records is to confirm a death by looking up a real name. Sometimes 2257s are used to confirm birthdates since actresses like to shave a couple of years here and there. Movie reviewers get 2257 from companies in case they want to publish screenshots and stills for their reviews. If I don't have something to check against (since I don't get everything), I ask other reviewers to confirm. All variations of "Luke Ford" from Scott Fayner to Luke Ford to Cindi Loftus are unreliable for me. Cindi's work with xcitement has editorial oversight, but not her work as the fake luke ford. Morbidthoughts (talk) 16:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

With regards to Morbid's comments about AVN's conflict of interest, it's no different from any other commercial news organization. The New York Times accepts advertising for its paper, and I'd say the majority of its ads will be from local businesses; said businesses can also potentially be the focus of a news story by the Times. The same is especially true for narrowly focuses media; if you pick a copy of Guitar World, you'll find most of the ads within will be from guitar companies and closely related firms (e.g., string manufacturers, effects makers). Ideally advertising and editorial in those organizations are two separate entities within the same organization. That same conflict is why Consumer Reports doesn't accept advertising - so there's no appearance of bias. Tabercil (talk) 22:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Since I don't get much into the hardcore scene, I'll basically just defer to you guys on that and go with whatever you think is reliable. Having said that though, I'd like to hear (read) what you have to say about Caskets on Parade. While looking into the source for Debbie Boostrom's death date, I decided to look through their FAQ and such. They seem to make a real effort in order to find sources for their info. Dismas|^(talk) 13:48, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, one more which I was just reminded of: University of Chicago's Playmate listing. I've been in contact with the maintainer of the list in the past. They get their info from the magazine itself or from official sources (in the case of upcoming Playmates) such as the Playboy Channel. Everything that I've double checked with my own collection has been correct. Dismas|^(talk) 14:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

For Consideration XCritic Page

Wanted to submit to the WP Pornography Team that we believe XCritic has finally broken through the threshold of WPNotable. Our current top 10 list of women porn directors has been picked up and covered by AVN and XBiz. This on top of our 9K reviews, porn star blogs and steady stream of news. Because of conflict of interest, of course we can not create the page, nor would we. So we submit to the Project our inclusion for your consideration. Thanks. Gkleinman (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:50, 22 October 2008 (UTC).

• I'm still not sure about the standalone notability yet. However, information about the XCritic spinoff should be mentioned in the DVDTalk article. I'm surprised no one has done that. Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
  • You're more thank welcome to add it to the DVD Talk article... Although the site is officially run by "Chris Thorne" so putting it on another bio page wouldn't be ideal. I do think that we've hit standalone notability. Aside from the preponderance of reviews, Penny Flame & Stoya Blogs, we are seen as a 'trusted source' for reviews and news. Gkleinman (talk)

-- Also XCritic has been thanked in the credits of a few films including Not Bewitched XXX also the cover for The Sunny Experiemnt has a quote from XCritic. We're a voting member of the XRCO and Don is voting for the AVN awards. That doesn't include any of the nods/etc which existed when the adult content that is now XCritic was part of DVD Talk...Gkleinman (talk)

Jane's Guide has now reviewed XCritic as 'Quality and Original'. Since they are considered an authority in the space does that tip the scale for getting a page? Jane's Guide Review of XCritic Gkleinman (talk)

removal of image

Please visit Ramba (comics) and weigh in. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)