Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)

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Speaking of three prongs...

How does this proposal apply to the article King Triton? I would say since the character has appeared in three notable films and two notable videogames, the character is well-known — so an article about the character is fine.

The problem with the "new" FICT is that it's the same as the old FICT — this bizarre demand of "real-world coverage." All these arguments at FICT seem to stem from Deckiller's proposal that was created June 5, 2007. Later, in July 2008, Deckiller said "I created a monster!" If you compare User:Deckiller/Notability (fiction) as it looks now, to FICT as it looks now, you are left with the same result — editors looking at FICT and redirecting/merging/nominating for deletion everything they can find "lacking the necessary real world coverage" — which nobody ever agreed was a requirement for an article in the first place.

If the goal is to get the Valen article deleted or merged into a list with no pictures or transwiki'd to babylon5.wikia.com, I would say this proposal does a good job — but I don't agree with any of those goals and I don't see how that makes Wikipedia a better encyclopedia. --Pixelface (talk) 23:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

• You may find you are in the minority in describing a requirement for "real world coverage" as bizzare. As for the subject itself, it may be a good example of an article that FICT would keep but the GNG would not. I'm sure that someone, somewhere has made some connection between the king triton of Little Mermaid and various greek mythic figures (even if only to say that Triton is a disneyfied amalgam of them), that would certainly satisfy a connection to the outside world. Protonk (talk) 23:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Pixel, if you don't have anything positive or constructive to add to the guideline... --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 23:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Read my second sentence again. When I think prongs I think tridents; who carries a trident? Poseidon, Triton — both arguably fictional characters. King Triton is a fictional character and a spin on Triton, and has appeared in multiple fictional works. Don't act like there's no dispute about "real world coverage." Look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ego the Living Planet, it was snow kept. Look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black Mesa Research Facility, which you nominated for deletion. It closed as no consensus. S@bre later redirected it. Now there's no article on Black Mesa, and yet we have the article Halo (megastructure)? What's the logic in that? Look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hazardous Environment Combat Unit, which you nominated for deletion. I provided "real-world coverage" there, which you can see here. I agree, a character article is more likely to be kept if it provides real-world coverage. But it's never been a requirement to have an article. --Pixelface (talk) 04:27, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
      • The Black Mesa merge is actually a good one. It discusses the important parts of the concept/facility without getting into minor things, like what jobs go there or what the different departments do. Sceptre ^(talk) 04:39, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
        • Locations of Half-Life is okay I guess, but there was no consensus to delete the standalone article even when it had information about personnel. Masem suggested a merge, S@bre agreed, Masem changed to keep, and after there was no consensus to delete (or merge) the article, S@bre s'merged it months later. The location is the primary setting of four Half-Life videogames, the first of which won over 50 game of the year awards. The setting was revolutionary at the time. The article should answer the question "What is the Black Mesa Research Facility?" That fictional location is well-known enough to stand alone; it's just easier to persuade people to keep when it's presented alongside other locations. --Pixelface (talk) 21:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
          • I think we should be more encouraging for people to delete problem material (synthesis, original research, etc, and not just in fictional articles) instead of letting it stagnate. To be honest, I actually kind of trust S@bre's judgement on this; he (along with Gary King) did get quite a lot of the HL articles they could to FA/GA. Maybe as the main setting of the original, it could do with another paragraph or two, but it does look a lot better. Sceptre ^(talk) 09:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
• For the sake of argument: King Triton - passes prong 1, may pass prong 2 (I have only seen the movie and can't comment about his involvement in the series), fails prong 3 left and right. I think the FICT sentence "Editors may consider whether the fictional subject could be treated as a section or part of a parent article or list instead of a standalone article" applies, as this character can nicely be covered in a List of characters. I'll also note that while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, the rest of your comment is similar in style as the second and third points of concern in your RFC. – sgeureka ^t•c 23:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • And that's the key thing that we need to walk away with here: failure to meet FICT (the three prong test) does not mean we cannot cover that topic at WP, it just should be part of a larger coverage that reflects the limitations that failing to meet the three prong implies (eg if prong 3 is failed, then we only can cover from the primary source, which means a short summary on a character list or the like). --MASEM 00:05, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I think there is no one-size-fits-all solution. I think Species of StarCraft is quite good, but I could understand a reader wanting 3 separate articles for Terran, Zerg, and Protoss. I mean, articles for those were created over 6 years before the species article. But merging them just means there's a stronger chance of the information being kept — which is what people wanted anyway at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Protoss and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zerg.
    • Just because one approach works well for some articles, that doesn't mean we need to replicate it sitewide. Larger coverage can mean separate articles. If people want separate articles on Wolf and Sheepdog, or Beaky Buzzard, or Witch Hazel, that's fine. We shouldn't be forcing short summaries in List of Looney Tunes characters on editors and readers via this (potential) guideline. Same with Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings.
    • But then you have List of Pulp Fiction characters. I maybe would have argued merge or redirect in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vincent Vega because the character only appears in one film, but it's a well-known role of John Travolta, the role revived his acting career, and there are plenty of film reviews that have analysis of the character.
    • I think the number of fictional works a fictional topic appears in, how well-known the fictional topic is, if a character is a main character, if an actor is well-known for portraying the character, if an actor won an award for portraying the character, if other fictional works make references to the fictional topic, if a list would be too long — all matter, or should at least be considered.
    • FICT should just say that articles are more likely to be kept if the article cites real-world coverage, not say that real-world coverage is a requirement for an article. --Pixelface (talk) 22:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
• I think folks are missing the WP:POTENTIAL here, not just the current state. There's DVD commentary on this guy, even if there isn't very much in the article. Given some time and effort, we'd have a solid section on reception and development. In practice, there's a good chance we'd keep it. And we'd probably keep it according to this guideline. I'd say this guideline is a pretty accurate way of describing the kinds of things that escape deletion, despite failing WP:N on a strict basis. Randomran (talk) 00:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  • That I agree with, and in terms of practical application of FICT, the situation (presuming this got to AFD) is that someone would just have note that the DVD commentary exists and talks about the character in more than just passing, as to satisfy the third prong and thus allow this article to be retained and expanded. (Which is why, I think, we need to remember that AFDs need to assume good faith that sources can be filled in if someone says they exist and shows likely evidence of such. We don't need to add this explicitly to the draft as this is just part of the AFD process in general). --MASEM 00:29, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  • (ec) Having listened to countless DVD audio commentaries to get something juicy about a character for a wiki article, I can just say that you're putting too much hope in such a source. :-) But I agree that if this article was AfDed right now, the most drastic I would !vote in this case is keep to consider merging. But not because of FICT, but because there is a huge amount of character articles with way less notability to be deleted/redirected/merged first. – sgeureka ^t•c 00:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I suspect this would help too. We can all rejoice that the guideline and current practice aren't too far apart. Randomran (talk) 00:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
      • IMDB i have just been told is not generally a reliable source... so I'm not sure on that last one.じんない 05:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
        • He means the movie documentary, not the IMDB page. Protonk (talk) 06:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• In answer to Pixelface's original question, I would say that as it stands, the article fails the Real-world coverage test out of the three prongs. In every instance, you can ignore the other two prongs, as importance = WP:ILIKEIT, and any arguements for or against a work or element being important/unimportant is just POV, and cannot be proven or disproven without the evidence provided by an article's content passing the real-world test.
  Going back to the real-world test, the only content worth considering is the statement cited from the DVD commentary, namely "The reason for his constant clashes with Ariel, according to the film's directors Ron Clements and John Musker, is that both he (Triton) and Ariel are strong-willed and independent". I am not sure that this statement can be considered sufficient on its own to pass the real-world test, because it does not reveal any significant real-world information...beyond what is revealed in the plot of the fictional work. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:39, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• I agree that this statement, by itself, wouldn't be enough. But the fact that there's an entire documentary about the film and that there *is* DVD commentary means that there would have to be at least a hand full of sentences of real world information. In fact, there is probably a hand full of real world information on trivial characters and inanimate objects as well, hence the need for the other two prongs. Randomran (talk) 18:15, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• In the very end, Gavin is right that all that matters is evidence, not presumption. The DVD commentary and supplemental material could be really resourceful, or not at all, no-one knows without checking (at which point the evidence can as well be provided in the article). At the moment when someone announces his doubts in good faith that the third prong can ever be satisfied, it is time for interested editors to provide that evidence over the next few weeks/months, or accept the merger. Most stand-alone fiction articles need a good trim for fancruft anyway, and merged articles can always be spun out again if sources are found later on, so no harm done. – sgeureka ^t•c 20:24, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• • • • That 19 minute documentary probably has some development information. But that information is a bonus, and probably just consists of "Well, we took The Sea King and altered the character for dramatic effect." King Triton is well-known (notable) because he's a main character in a film that was the 13th highest grossing film in North America in 1989 -- which grossed even more money internationally, the film became the highest-grossing animated film at the time, and the character has appeared in two additional films, two videogames, a television series that ran for 3 seasons, a Broadway musical, and the character is probably the most well-known adaptation of The Sea King from Hans Christian Anderson's The Little Mermaid. Then you have Characters of Disney's The Little Mermaid for minor characters. He's a major character that appears in multiple notable fictional works. People create articles for well-known fictional characters. --Pixelface (talk) 20:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
        • Which is why the first and second prongs are just as important as the third. A major work or franchise, or a key character that cannot be excluded from a plot summary of the work, weight heavily on keeping an article on a fiction character. The fact that the commentary adds the character's influences (the real world aspect), even if it is just a brief mention of its influence, seals the deal. --MASEM 21:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
          • I cited game reviews during Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hazardous Environment Combat Unit and that didn't "seal the deal." If people think a fictional work is important, and people think a character is important within that work, and there's coverage of that character, the probability of the article actually being deleted will decrease. But I think that this proposal requiring coverage is a bad idea.
          • If someone reads this (potential) guideline and starts going through Category:Looney Tunes characters and starts nominating them all for deletion for "lacking the necessary real world coverage", I'm guesssing they'd all be kept, especially if it's a group nomination. If they're nominated for deletion separately, forcing people to research all of them in five days, the probability of a few of them being deleted increases. That's why people who want to remove stuff from Wikipedia make salvos like that, to overwhelm people and create a timesink so they can divide and conquer. This (potential) guideline should not encourage that sort of behavior, as it has in the past. --Pixelface (talk) 00:58, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
• To Pixel's above rather pointless arguments: Halo (megastructure) meets all three prongs of WP:N. There is scholarly work on the subject, specifically how such a ringworld would function, how it would be constructed, and where it would orbit a gas giant on the magnitude as the one seen in the games. There's scholarly discussion on the comparisons to other fictitious ringworlds such as those by Larry Niven. There's developer discussion on how it evolved from a massive hollow planet to a ring-shaped installation. As the settings of three bestselling video games, it is important. Just because I've been busy working on improving other articles doesn't mean that it doesn't meet this guideline or others. Elements in the Halo universe that did, for example Forerunner were merged into Factions of Halo as only the Flood and Covenant from the universe met the GNG and had sufficient content for a featurable article. Can you please stop the WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS arguments? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Noting that this proposal is similar to past FICT proposals that have failed is not pointless. And noting that people create articles for well-known fictional elements is not pointless. We have the article Halo (megastructure) because Halos are well-known (notable) fictional locations, like you said, the settings of three bestselling videogames. It's obvious that Bungie was influenced by the novel Ringworld. And Halos are well-known ringworlds. The Black Mesa Research Facility is a well-known fictional location as well. There are over 55,000 articles in Category:Fictional, some of the over 750,000 articles in Category:Fiction. And yet the Fiction article has no sources whatsoever; Wikipedia is a work in progress. If this guideline is grouping fifty-five thousand or three-quarter-of-a-million articles together and saying they all should be dealt with in a similar fashion, why is talking about articles in that group considered a bad thing? Isn't this proposal trying to enforce consistency? --Pixelface (talk) 01:27, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I don't think the proposal is trying to enforce consistency. It is just trying to find some reasonable ground that describes best practice relatively well. David is upset because much of your original post had to do with your repeated demand that "real world coverage" requirements be removed. That theme in policy discussions involving you is ongoing and I think David wanted to forestall a repeat of the NOT/PLOT/N/WAF discussion here. In my opinion he was right do stop it though I disagree that you are trolling--I don't think you are at all. My position is that "real world coverage" or "real world connection" of the subject (as phil notes below) is easily the most acceptable prong of the three. Of the small set of people commenting on this proposal so far, it has been almost unanimous in support of requiring some real-world connection. I can imagine (but cannot speak with certainty) that this would extend were the guideline proposed to a wider audience. Also, I don't think that "real world" requirements are as onerous as you suggest. We don't demand that some character influence the course of history, just that verifiable evidence exists on the subject beyond what can be gleaned from summarizing the plot. Developer commentary, thematic connections, and so forth all meet that. And, frankly, it provides a much better decision rule than describing a fictional element as "well known". Who knows of Black Mesa? How are we to use that assumed common knowledge to determine if a subject is fit for inclusion without extending wikipedia's already significant systemic bias? Protonk (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
      • The third "prong" says "Real-world coverage: Significant, real-world information must exist on the subject, beyond what is revealed in the plot of the fictional work." That's not reasonable ground, that's the same warmed over FICT from the past. I know you mean well, but you didn't comment at the RFC on FICT in April, and the RFC on FICT in June. The requirement for "real world coverage" in this proposal makes this FICT the same as the old FICTs that failed. How does this proposal differ from those past proposals?
      • Real-world information is not the same as real-world coverage. Alec Guinness portrayed Obi-Wan Kenobi; that's a fact. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a well-known (notable) fictional character — so well-known in fact, that Alec Guinness hated all the attention he got for the role. Alec Guinness also protrayed Herbert Pocket and Fagin and Henry Holland (a role he was nominated for Best Actor for) and Lieutenant Colonel Nicholson (a role he won Best Actor for) and Gen. Yevgraf Zhivago and George Smiley and the Earl of Dorincourt and the Charles Dickens' characters Jacob Marley and William Dorrit (a role he was nominated for Best Actor for).
      • Real-world coverage is considered strong evidence of notability. Pointing to real-world coverage is used to persuade people who have never heard of a topic that the topic is notable. But if I've heard of Chaos Space Marines or Genestealers, and I have (and I've never even played the tabletop game or any of the videogames), I don't need to be persuaded with "real world coverage" that they're notable. People didn't need "real world coverage" to think that Wikipedia should have an article on Ego the Living Planet.
      • Requiring real-world coverage is biased against non-English fictional works, when English-speaking users don't know the language where the coverage exists. Inclusion guidelines shouldn't describe best practice — they are the lowest bar. Say "Articles are more likely to be kept if they cite real world coverage" — okay. Say "Real world coverage must exist..." — not okay. You'd keep out some comic book character drawn by a teenager where people would say "non-notable" anyway, at the expense of thousands and thousands of articles people would never say "non-notable" unless FICT was telling them to. This is a guideline. It should list evidence of notability for fictional topics. Developer commentary doesn't make a fictional element notable. It's just background information for something they made up.
      • Who knows of Black Mesa? Oh, probably anyone who bought one of the 9.3 million copies of Half-Life that have been sold. The content disclaimer says: "Wikipedia's coverage is based on the interests of its volunteer contributors. Readers should not judge the importance of topics based on their coverage in Wikipedia, nor assume that a topic is important merely because it is the subject of a Wikipedia article." And here we have this proposal telling people to judge the importance of the fictional work, and the importance within the fictional work. Is Black Mesa "important" in the game Half-Life? In my opinion yes. Is Black Mesa "important" in the history of first-person shooters? IMO yes. Is Black Mesa important in the history of Valve Corporation? IMO yes. But is Black Mesa important in the grand scheme of things? No, not really. But the location is well-known. Is there a reason to believe that someone would ask "What is Black Mesa?" Yes. Topics on Wikipedia aren't required to be well-known, but excluding well-known topics for lack of coverage doesn't do anything to counter systemic bias. The WikiProject on countering systemic bias focuses on adding omitted things to Wikipedia, not removing other articles. And regarding bias, the results of UNU-MERIT survey on users may become available sometime in January. --Pixelface (talk) 23:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Pixelface - I would point out that the threshold is not "real-world coverage in the article" as such, but rather that it be possible to write real-world coverage. Finding sources that can be used to establish real-world coverage is and ought to be sufficient to avoid deletion. A lousy article on a topic that we can write a good one about should stay to be expanded.

Now, on the other hand, a subject about which there can be *no* significant real world coverage? That probably should be deleted. Why? Because it will never be good enough to meet basic content standards in the area of fiction. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

• In answer to Pixelface, the arguments you make are justifable, but consider the possibility that just because a character such as King Triton features in multiple versions of the The Little Mermaid, it does not make him important or notable per se, and your assertions that he is are your point of view. Some evidence that he is notable may be added to the article at some point in the future, but in the absence or non-trivial real-world commentary about the character, you have to admit this is a presumption on your part, and as such, think it possible you may be mistaken.
  In fairness to you, I can understand why you have such strong views about the importance of this character, and I admit many editors share your commonly held view that a character that features in a famous film, play or video game (or all of these), or may have been adapted for the screen by a well known author (although we don't know who in this case) or film production company (Disney) should automatically presumed to be important or notable. However, in the absence of non-trivial real-world sources we cannot presume this because importance, like notability, cannot be presumed to be inherited.
  Consider why your opinion may turn out to wrong about this character, in the sense that he may not be notable or important: it may turn out that the commentators and critics of the film might not share your view. For instance, King Triton might appear in several scenes that are notable or important, such that the important ficitional element in the film might be a particular scene, rather than the character. Only evidence in the form of non-trivial real-world sources can determine this - sometimes the obvious assumption may not turn out to be the case at all.
  As Phil Sandifer correctly points out, there is no point in having articles about King Triton or any of the scenes he appears in, or any other fictional element he is associated with unless there is sufficient coverage from commentators or critics to write a decent encyclopedic article. If we ignore this concern, we risk creating hundreds of content forks that either duplicate the same information (at best) or collectively provide little encyclopedic coverage (worst case). Despite the fame or notability of the film, I stick by my view that, at this time, the article King Triton does not provide any significant real-world information...beyond what is revealed in the plot of the fictional work. For this reason, I believe a merger with the article The Little Mermaid (1989 film) would be appropriate until such time as the more content can be found, as there would be no loss of encylopedic coverage if the article was merged. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:15, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Gavin here, at least for individual fictional items (I would not say the same for lists, but this proposal is not currently covering them anyway). Give a reasonable time for anyone to come up with real world coverage, and if not articles such as this should be merged back into a list or main article. There they may warrant anything from as much to their own section to 1 line. In this case, without the commentary from the DVD, I'd say 1 line would suffice....maybe a bit more up to short paragraph at most.じんない 22:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• • The importance or unimportance of King Triton is an opinion, and everyone's entitled to their own. But one synonym of notable is well-known. I think it's safe to say that King Triton is a well-known fictional character, recognizable by many, many people — in the millions. There are 509 articles in Category:Disney characters; the articles are already here. And I've never created an article for any fictional character. Now, someone may hate Disney movies, but I think they'd have to agree that many of those characters are well-known. All of the fictional works that King Triton appears in have been reviewed, and I'm sure reviewers made note of King Triton. I don't see why a film or game review would be uncitable in a character article. The information in the King Triton article could be put in the The Little Mermaid (1989 film) article, but then the information about where else the character appears would be out of place. The information could be put in the Characters of Disney's The Little Mermaid article, and it looks like it even was on January 16, 2008, but another editor expanded the King Triton article, and it was recreated August 11, 2008. Editors designated Characters of Disney's The Little Mermaid for minor characters, probably because the information about King Triton, Ursula, Ariel, Prince Eric, and Sebastian made the article too long. The information could be put in Characters of Kingdom Hearts#Atlantica (and the link to King Triton there even points to Characters of Disney's The Little Mermaid#King Triton but that link is no longer good) but again, the information about the other fictional works King Triton appears in would be out of place. A separate article doesn't mean King Triton is more important than another topic without an article, or as important as another topic with an article, the article is just a way of organizing the information pertaining to that specific character. I don't think I've ever supported having an article for a character that has appeared in one film, unless the film is an adaptation of a novel or previous work, or unless the character is particularly iconic. Two films or more, and I'm more likely to support an article. --Pixelface (talk) 00:39, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
  • And I didn't look until now, but searches on Google, Google News, Google Books, and Google Scholar turn up several sources that mention King Triton. But those sources aren't why King Triton is well-known; I think you'd be pressed to find people familiar with any of those sources. Those sources exist because King Triton is well-known, having been a major character in the highest grossing animated film at the time, having appeared in multiple fictional works, and even having an eponymous carousel at Disney's California Adventure Park. I'll leave whether The Church of Goofy is the root of all evil to Kathleen Madigan. --Pixelface (talk) 00:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
• I don't know much about King Triton, but I agree with Pixelface that the real-world tine of the putative fork is bizarre. I just looked at the Encyclopedia Britannica's article about the play Macbeth and there's little about the real world there - it's mostly straight plot. So far as I can see, this real-world requirement has been added simply to exclude coverage of fiction as a matter of prejudice and dislike. It therefore fails our policies WP:CENSOR and WP:NOTLAW and so must be stricken. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:46, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
  • There is no sneaky conspiracy to prevent fiction being covered, just a fairly open and transparent discussion on how to do it well. Accusing people of being motivated by dislike and prejudice just because you don't like the way consensus is going is pretty poor form. Your example of MacBeth is a bad one anyway because it tremendously easy to find substantial proof of real world significance. It's the existence of such proof that is the requirement whether the sources are currently incorporated in the article or not. Reyk _YO! 23:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Please do not use the word "conspiracy" — especially if someone has not claimed one. There is no question that some editors who try to remove fictional topics from Wikipedia are motivated by dislike and prejudice. Macbeth is a well-known fictional character — that is why Wikipedia should have an article about him. You could make an argument that there should be no separate article for the character Macbeth because the character should be covered in the play article, but the Lady Macbeth article looks decent, and the article for the character Macbeth could be improved in a similar way. You could put analysis of the play in the play article, and analysis of the specific character in the character article. You could also list all the notable actors who have portrayed Macbeth, or at least the ones who are most well-known for portraying Macbeth. --Pixelface (talk) 06:59, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Copy what Reyk said. And I'd add a reminder to WP:AGF. People are working hard on this compromise, and accusing them of censorship is pretty rude. Randomran (talk) 23:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• This is not hard work of the sort required to create an article - research, balance, sourcing and the like. From what I've seen, it's just the self-indulgent expression of personal opinion by the usual suspects who represent no-one other than themselves. This is my point: that when people such as Gavin endlessly demand real-world content, they are just stating their own opinion - there is no objective or NPOV basis for this requirement. What you have to do to make any of this stand up is demonstrate how requiring real-world content improves the encyclopedia. Without such support, the rule-making collapses per WP:IAR. Now, I have produced some objective evidence by referring to an independent and encyclopedic source. I do this because it is what one is constantly called upon to do when writing articles - find sources to back up one's statements. So, where is the source to support this three-pronged test? I was flipping through a Christmas book of mnemonics when shopping and one of them was a mnemonic for the important features of fiction - setting, character, plot, theme, etc. The real world did not feature in this list and this is another objective, real-world demonstration of the point. Moreover, I'm not the only person who opposes the real-world requirement - I'm just chipping here to support the indefatigable Pixelface. Phil Sandifer seems like-minded too and I especially respect his opinion because he actually works with this stuff and so has an objective real-world requirement for fiction :). Colonel Warden (talk) 23:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• Listen, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just reminding you to assume good faith, and to not attack people. The real-world requirement isn't based on "prejudice", or "censorship". It's based on good faith efforts to find a compromise to WP:N that lets us achieve the same spirit of reliable, independent secondary sources without actually having reliable, independent secondary sources. Randomran (talk) 00:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
• Colonel, if you're going to appeal to an authority like the Encyclopedia Britannica to support your personal opinions, you'd better be sure it backs you up. Encyclopedia Britannica has articles like MacBeth but you'll never find them including the sort of article on minor aspects of fiction which you are so fond of. Do you know why? You'll probably say it's because the Encyclopedia Britannica has space constraints that don't apply to Wikipedia, but that's only part of it. The paper encyclopedia is run by a group of expert editors whose task it is to carefully decide what subjects to write about and which not to write about, and undoubtedly real-world importance forms a large part of their considerations. So that claim that real-world relevance doesn't matter to Encyclopedia Britannica is false. It's all irrelevant anyway. We are not the Encyclopedia Britannica: we are an encyclopedia that is written by the readers, we have issues of quality and credibility unique among encyclopedias precisely because we don't have an oligarchy of experts to tell us what to do- so we need to make those decisions ourselves through discussion, compromise and consensus. And that is what this discussion is doing. You are welcome to speak your mind; what you may not do is attempt do derail a productive conversation just because you don't like the direction it's going or accuse people of having the wrong motivations just because their idea of a good encyclopedia differs from yours. Reyk _YO! 01:16, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• No, again you are ignoring policy - in this case WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. Establishing consensus for a guideline is not a matter of establishing a tiny plurality of opinion by "expert editors". The only test for all this work is: does it improve the encyclopedia? I have yet to see any objective evidence presented that a "real-world" test has any objective claim to do this. I contrast this with the other two prongs of the fork. These are both based upon the idea of importance. Now we might have trouble agreeing upon what's important but these are both reasonable guidelines in that important topics, by definition, are important and so focussing upon them may reasonably be said to improve the encyclopedia. So, if we have an important work of fiction and a character is important to it because he is the protagonist, say, then nothing further need be said. Of course, real-world evidence will be required to establish importance if this is challenged but this is a matter of verifying the first two tines of the fork, not a separate, independent fork. Perhaps this is mainly a matter of presentation. I suggest that the real world point be rolled into the first two forks as a matter of verification. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• Just because a work is important and the character is important does not mean an article that has the potential to be encyclopedic can be written; such an article doesn't have to start off super polished, but if one cannot find anything else besides what the primary source says about the character, these articles tend to attract original research in the way of theories, speculation, trivial references, and the like that are inappropriate for any WP article and make them look like fandom pages. The presence of real world or out-of-universe context helps to establish more than just primary sourced information and makes for a read that will be more useful to a reader that may never encounter that work of fiction but has to know what a certain character is for research purpose. If this can't be done, that doesn't mean we can't cover that element, just that we restrict our coverage to brief summary in the context of the larger work itself with redirects for searching. Nothing is lost in terms of the breadth that we cover, only the depth to which we cover it to, and that's because we are not an collection of indiscriminate information. --MASEM 07:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedia already has a policy against "original research." Every article tends to attract "original research" — that's the result of Wikipedia letting anyone on the planet with access to the Internet contribute to Wikipedia. And don't throw the word "encyclopedic" around. I don't know of anyone here who writes encyclopedias for a living. So we're all pretty much making it up as we go. No encyclopedia I know of has an article on Pinky and the Brain or Elmyra Duff or Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock. If Wikipedia volunteers decide that since the characters in Guitar Hero have no real backstory and so there shouldn't be a list of those characters on Wikipedia, fine. King Triton is a major character in multiple fictional works. You can find analysis of the character (Inventing the Child: Culture, Ideology, and the Story of Childhood by Joseph L. Zornado (2001), page 163: "King Triton's "correction" of Ariel with his fire-throwing trident is, in some respects, a rape scene.") — but to include that in the King Triton article would be ridiculous. Who is Joseph Zornado and why should I care what he thinks about King Triton? When people look up "Winston Smith" on the Internet, they want to know "Who is Winston Smith?" Not, "What did Erika Gottlieb write about Winston Smith?" What did George Orwell write about Winston Smith? Jimbo Wales did say "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information." But that's a plain truth. All kinds of decisions are made about what information to include and what not to include in Wikipedia. That heading in WP:NOT used to say "Wikipedia is not a general knowledge base", but that was changed because Jimbo says. If one of Wikipedia's strengths is the breadth of topics it covers and the depth of information it contains — and I think it is — why should we limit the depth of information in an article? Different readers desire different levels of detail. "It is up to the reader to choose how much detail to which they are exposed." Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. The UNU-MERIT survey on users asked about breadth of topics and depth of information, and I would be very interested to see the answers to those questions. We are not here to decide if subjects are important or not. But if Les Miserables is a well-known novel and Cosette is a major character in Les Miserables, and there's a good chance that someone would ask "Who is Cosette?" — that is why Wikipedia should have an article on Cosette. Does the Cosette article look like a "fandom page"? I don't even know what that means. I don't see drawings of Cosette by fans in the article. I don't see Cosette fan fiction in the article. I don't see photographs of fans dressed up like Cosette in the article. --Pixelface (talk) 00:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

• WP:NOTDEMOCRACY says consensus should be established through editing and discussion. Since that is exactly what I advocated in my earlier post, and since it is what we are doing here now, it is obvious that I am not ignoring it. You, however, are in clear violation of WP:READANDUNDERSTANDTHEPOLICIESYOUINVOKEBEFOREUSINGTHEMINANARGUMENT (if there was such a thing). Reyk _YO! 07:27, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
• The objective basis is right out of Wikipedia:POLICY#Sources_of_Wikipedia_policy. We're documenting an actual practice here, not the practice as any of us would prefer it to be. You're here advocating for a standard that would not reflect the current deletion practices. We delete/redirect/merge main characters all the time. Randomran (talk) 07:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• I don't agree that the real-world test is currently significant in places like AFD. All that matters is notability per the GNG (i.e. good sources) and importance (i.e. support from numerous editors who consider the topic to be important). So, this test does not represent current practise. I'm speaking here from my personal experience of debating numerous AFDs such as Thumper, Zuckerman's Famous Pig and Teletubbies say Eh-oh!. Colonel Warden (talk) 10:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• You do realize that the GNG is much stronger than what this proposes? The GNG requires significant coverage in secondary sources; all this asks is for some tidbit of real-world info that could come from the creator/developer themselves alongside assertions of importance in the work. I can't tell the case with Thumper (which one, that's a disambi). The other two are musical songs, not elements of fiction, and thus would not be covered, save for the weak case of ZFP, which the version that was merged shows coverage of the song but not the fictional concept. Note that we've not wiped WP of the coverage of it, it's got its own section which probably can be expanded some, but that's definitely the case of a topic that yes, we should cover, but will never reach the quality standard we are looking for, and thus should be described as part of a larger topic. --MASEM 14:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• As far as I can tell, most of the Thumpers have been deleted/redirected. The only one that hasn't is Thumper (Bambi), and that one not only meets this guideline... it meets WP:N. Colonel Warden will be pleased to know that anything that meets WP:N is still notable. This just offers an alternate way to assert notability without reliable, independent secondary sources. Randomran (talk) 16:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
• You do realize that the GNG is inclusionary, not exclusionary? The GNG does not require significant coverage in secondary sources. It says "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." It says "If a topic", not "Only if a topic...." There's a difference. "If a man is the richest man on Earth, then he is presumed to be notable" — not — "Only if a man is the richest man on Earth, then he is presumed to be notable." You do realize that you've been an administrator for over a year now? Find an admin coach Masem, please. I beg you. Do you realize that the "GNG" is made up out of thin air and should be treated with common sense? What is the "quality standard" we are looking for? The quality of an article about a topic has nothing to do with whether Wikipedia should or should not have an article about that topic. --Pixelface (talk) 01:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

• In answer to Colonel Warden, the need for real-world coverage is absolute. Remember, the three-pronged test has been developed as an inclusion criteria for topics that don't pass WP:N on the first pass. Normally topics that fail to meet the requirements of WP:N usually fail one or more of Wikipedia content policies, and in the case of fictional topics, this means that they usually fail WP:NOT#PLOT. In order to provide guidance that steers editors away from creating plot only articles, WP:FICT needs to emphaise non-trivial real-world content is the key to writing articles about fiction that are encyclopedic. Remember, articles that are comprised of plot summary or in universe speculation are not encyclopedic, and WP:FICT needs to focus on encylopedic content, and to discourage fancruft.--Gavin Collins (talk) 09:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

• No Gavin, it is not "absolute." When you write an article, cite your sources, don't include your personal opinions, and present the information in a fair and neutral way. What articles about fiction have you written? Drow — which you called "the Norse Scottish term for a Troll"[1] Interesting... --Pixelface (talk) 02:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Real-world coverage

King Triton though is not the protagonist in the movie, Ariel is; nor his he the principal antagonist, Ursela is. Therefore without some signifigant real-world criteria I'd say that the 2nd prong is also week. Yes, he is a main supporting character, but without some strong real-world evidence, stronger than for those i listed above, his coverage is better represented in a list. It does not need to be lengthy. If the DVD commentary devotes a segment on him rather than a blub, that could be enough.じんない 00:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think removal of fiction articles is a major culprit in the slowdown of wikipedia editors/editing. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 00:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that interpreting causality is a hopeless venture without some serious data. I likewise think that it is near impossible to invent a scenario where wikia exists but WP:N does not and imagine what the results would be then. Even further I wonder if the diaspora of editors and articles to Halopedia, Lostpedia, etc. isn't a net positive for coverage of those shows. But all of that is beside the point. Protonk (talk) 01:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

A quick reminder that this discussion is distracting us from finally proposing this guideline to the wider public. It all boils down to "Can or should a character who may be notable, have an article until non-subjective real-world notability is established?" If we can agree that it's our goal as wikipedians to improve the encyclopedia, then we automatically have two options - either improve a bad subarticle to an acceptable standalone article when FICT-non-compliance gets noted, or (trim&)merge the bad subarticle into an acceptable list. I am sure there's something in there for every editor (if not - why not then?), and the initial question becomes a non-issue. Can we move on soon, or do we want to go in circles for a while longer? – sgeureka ^t•c 03:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Going in circles is fun. ^_^

But seriously, it sounds like this has sparked enough of a contention that at least a line or two should be added. Might do so myself if I can find the right place.じんない 03:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It has been answered in my opinion. FICT, like every other notability guideline, applies to the subject not the article. If we think that some evidence exists indicating all three prongs are met, good. If not, no go. I know in practice the state of the article matters--a poorly formatted and referenced article faces a grim fate at AfD while a sharp and footnoted article of equal notability will be quickly kept (usually). If we are waiting on research or speculation, I'm sure the AfD would treat it like we treat subjects which are awaiting sources, delete it until the sourcing shows up. Protonk (talk) 04:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of going in circles, how does this proposal differ from the FICTs under discussion at the RFC on FICT in April, and the RFC on FICT in June? Go ahead and present this proposal to the wider public; I just think you will end up with the same result as summer 2008 — with no consensus and then editwarring over the essay/historical/proposed tags. How does this proposal differ from past proposals that failed? --Pixelface (talk) 04:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That's an easy question. Those versions of fict were focused on declaring classes of articles worthy of inclusion regardless of the subject. So we spent a lot of ink on "spin out" articles and "episode" articles and so forth. Further the actual text of the guideline (here it is in april) was just a mess. I mean read that and tell me what the guideline says about articles? In 2 sentences or less. You can't, because it is all over the place. What would we have found consensus to enact? The current version of fict is slimmed down, talks little about content and talks a lot about subjects. I think it is a superior text to the past versions. Protonk (talk) 04:34, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Now compare the current proposal to FICT as it existed on June 3, 2008, when it was proposed for global acceptance and was opposed by a majority of editors. Note how often "coverage" was mentioned in that proposal. The current FICT is half as short, but still mentions coverage several times, and completely ignores whether a fictional element may be well-known. How would the current FICT apply to Fictional history of Spider-Man, which has survived two[2] [3] AFDs?

My views may be in the minority among editors who have commented on policies and guidelines, but I think my views about major characters or iconic characters or characters that have been around for years or characters appearing in multiple fictional works are shared by many more editors who have written and edited fictional character articles, and may not have ever commented on a policy or guideline.

Consider the results in these AFDs for articles in Category:Marvel Comics supervillains: Blizzard (comics), Ego the Living Planet, Halflife (comics), Mammomax, Mathemanic, Melter, Mister Negative, Morlun, Omega Red, Plunderer, Ringer (comics). There was no consensus to delete any of those.

Consider the results in these AFDs for articles in Category:Coronation Street characters: Roy Cropper, Molly Compton, Teresa Bryant, Kirk Sutherland, Bill Webster, Ashley Peacock, Claire Peacock, Rosie Webster. There was no consensus to delete any of those. And that was before people figured out that six of those were nominated by a blocked user, who commented in several of them. Coronation Street has been around for almost 50 years and the 7,000th episode is going to air soon.

The question is not whether you or I understand this proposal, but whether editors notorious for redirecting/merging/AFDing fictional topics will. I'll read a policy or guideline saying add real world coverage and I'll look for sources and add it to the article. Other people will read the same policy or guideline and try to get rid of the article altogether. --Pixelface (talk) 05:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I still don't think the discussion of "main" or "well known" or anything like that is the subject of this guideline. It likewise isn't a reasonable policy proscription. We can't write a policy that will get consensus that says "every main character of a show gets an article". Or "every show gets a "list of..." article". We already know there isn't consensus for that. All we are trying to do here is make an incremental step toward widening what coverage we do give. And it is incremental. Of all the fiction articles we have, this guideline probably applies to <10% of them. But it is a reasonable step. It is a step that has rough approval from people on either side of the debate. And it is a step that is consonant with most of the policies and guidelines on the subject as written.

That being said, nothing we write here can stop someone from either ignoring this guideline or reading it maliciously. We note multiple times that sourcing needs to exist on a subject not in the article, but that won't stop people from ignoring it, just like they ignore it now. Protonk (talk) 06:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

And that's part of the issue here - this guideline should not be telling people what to do - it is only an assessment tool. If articles are going to AFD, there are processes that should be done (though not required) such as what's outlined at WP:BEFORE, in as much as those other process-oriented documents describe them, but we don't want to make that FICT, WP:N, or other SNG's job for the issues of weighing down the text. We obviously do want to keep track (if this is made a guideline) if there are repeated abuses of it so that we can adjust its language in either direction to stem those off but as Protonk stated, if there is a persistent editor that wants to merge or create articles, FICT's not going to be what stops him. (And knowing this is probably PF talking about TTN, and the fact that a recent proposed "E&C3" case was closed pending the confirmation and practices of this FICT, it makes sense to see what happens in a couple months should this become a guideline to see if TTN is using this as a basis to determine if there's any action to go forward on him). --MASEM 06:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the old guideline suffered from bloat and scope creep, and was based on the notion of presumed notability. This one is cleaner, and it relaxes the sourcing requirements to allow stuff like developer blogs and DVD commentary to help satisfy the inclusion standard. Randomran (talk) 07:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The other way is that this reflects observed behavior at AFD and other places when articles are up for discussion, instead of trying to create guidelines. Yes, the three prong test is new, but when this was reviewed by editors involved, it was clearly the right set of considerations that made or break an article at AFD; the language has only been tweaked to prevent gaming the system either way for notability purposes. --MASEM 14:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Final comments

As I said on various talk pages, this proposal seems to be nearing consensus, so I wanted to make sure there was a well-publicized final round of comments so nobody got blindsided. This proposal has its origin in an attempt to write a fiction notability guideline that was descriptive of the sorts of reasoning that led to articles being kept or deleted on AfD, as opposed to one that tried to argue from first principles. At this point it's been thoroughly worked over by a diverse crowd, but we want to make sure it has wide consensus before we tag it as a guideline.

I know that notability of fiction articles is an extremely divisive subject, with strong feelings on each side. I would point out, however, that the hardline inclusion/exclusion positions, at this point, clearly do not enjoy consensus. The best we are going to come to is a middle ground. I would ask, thus, that you evaluate this proposal not in terms of whether it's everything you want, but in terms of whether it seems like a livable compromise in a long-standing and divisive dispute.

Thanks. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Here's a thought for application I just had when browsing some articles: what would FICT do when applied to character pages such as List of James Bond henchmen in Casino Royale (I think I was involved in an AfD for a similar topic, which is why this spurs my curiosity now). Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 16:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

We are specifically avoiding the issues of lists pending the resolution of the RFC at WP:N, which, even though there's suggested support of non-notable lists of the example nature you give, we don't want to make any presumptions on that. Should the WP:N RFC confirm that we can make such lists, we were planning to address this in a separate guideline. --MASEM 16:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Lists quickly looked like an area that could derail getting consensus on major points of agreement. So we've punted on that. I'm not thrilled with the decision, but it was clearly the necessary thing to do to get guidance in place on the issues we have consensus on. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Here. Probably need a header box on WT:N for this. --MASEM 17:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Right, I can't believe I forgot about that discussion... show's how long this thing's been going on :P We really should put that somewhere when inviting comments, then. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Where's the notability guideline RFC that's discussing such lists? I don't see it at WT:N; am I missing something? — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 17:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Err, see the comment I made about (must have mistyped this, but don't want to derail the thread) --MASEM 18:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

A random thought from a regular contributor to fictional-subject AFDs: I'm not entirely convinced that the three prong test has consensus in anything like all situations. One common situation that I don't think it covers is character articles describing major characters that appear in multiple notable works; my experience at AFD seems to be that such articles are mostly kept, regardless of whether any "real world" information is available for them. At a minimum, there does not seem to be consensus to delete. Recent examples include Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gil Hamilton, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ponder Stibbons and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bloody Stupid Johnson. These three articles fail the three prong test, to all appearances. These characters' only importance is that they are important to understanding a major work of fiction. There is no real-world information in their articles, nor was there suggestion that any could or would be included in the AFDs for them. Yet, there was apparently no consensus to delete them. Therefore, I can only conclude that the test described in this proposal does not entirely reflect consensus. There are major exceptions to it, apparently in cases where only the first two items are satisfied, there are multiple works involved, and the works in question are *particularly* notable. There may well be other cases. JulesH (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That's a flat misreading of all three quoted debates. Each of those could have been closed as "merged, two were closed as "no consensus". I'll go further to say that the chief source of "keep" comments seemed to be a bare assertion of importance rather than some claim that characters in multiple works are kept more frequently. This guideline (see the section above) takes pains to avoid the "multiple works==keep" problem because there has been no consensus to create such a broad plank in the past. Protonk (talk) 20:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. That said, given that Gil Hamilton appears to be the main character of a popular SF series, I would be shocked if sources from reviews (SF fandom is very, very diligent about having published reviews of stuff), interviews with Niven, etc could not be found. It might require recourse to (*gasp*) actual paper, but commentary discussing him directly is surely available. The other two are trickier, but seem to me to fall into a middle category that is, generally, kept or deleted based more on the happenstance of who shows up than on any actual principle. I think you're hard-pressed to make a serious argument that there is a consensus for an article like Ponder Stibbons to exist. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:52, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention AfDs ≠ consensus. People show up for the AfD's they feel strongly about; that's going to give you a skewed view of what people find acceptable. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 20:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

This guideline will (hopefully) also be used for merger debates and helping decide when to spin out. Just because a "bad" article survives an AfD, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be merged, and just because a character meets all three prongs (e.g. Brother Justin Crowe), doesn't mean he must be spun out now. FICT leaves enough wiggle room for editorial consensus when the prongs are only somewhat met or could reasonably be met in the near future. – sgeureka ^t•c 22:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• In answer to Phil Sandifer, I don't think we can roll out WP:FICT as a guideline just yet. I still believe that the test for "Importance within the fictional work" is too subjective. Although this is just my opinion (contested by many editors I note), there is precedent for giving consideration to this view. Article inclusion criteria based, not on evidence, but on editors' opinions tend to get dropped over time - see Wikipedia talk:Notability/Historical/Importance#Policy, guidelines, and human bias. Basically WP:IMPORTANCE was dropped as a basis for article inclusion ans was replaced by WP:N on the grounds that "importance" was a concept "so vague that whether any article meets it can be debated endlessly", and was replaced by WP:N which relies on evidence provided by the citation of reliable secondary sources. I think that "Importance within the fictional work" is too vague, and can be automatically discounted as a test becuase every element of fiction passes it. I feel a rewrite of the three pronged test is still necessary before we can go to RFC to obtain wider support for this proposed guideline. I will try to draft an amendment over the next few days. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Non-Independent Sources

Where to start; I've been trying to get a grip on the threads here and on the new page yonder, but things still seem rather in-flux. I liked the restored version re "Systemic bias" but note that it was cut, cut again, and is now gone again. I share the concerns expressed about the "Independence" section which are now off in archive 41. The view that non-independent sources can in anyway serve to establish notability plays right into the marketing efforts of commercial pop-culture. Just because 'disc 2' had a bit on such and such, doesn't count. Relying on non-independent sources only serves to promote products.

The core of the long-running notability dispute is really not about 'fiction' — it about mass produced commercial product that is nominally in the realm of 'fiction'. Note that the flash points are the usual TV E&C, D&D monsters, video game characters, comic books, &c. Fiction is a far larger container; nobody is seriously asserting that Lady Macbeth is inappropriate for inclusion. See Pride and Prejudice; it's a work of fiction, yet only two of the characters have stand alone articles (which I'm going to now watch for WP:POINT violations). See Moby-Dick; only two characters with articles. Now go look at the coverage of one of the modern commercial properties; you'll likely find dozens of characters and better than a hundred episodes (or spells, or fictional islands; "whatever"-cruft). The whole nature of such franchises is deliberately open-ended; they'll keep turning the crank so long as the target audience responds to the programming. Editors rail about mentioning Wikia as a COI, yet most of the flash point articles are little more than puff-pieces for corporate properties.

Cheers, Jack Merridew 11:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem with this section is that it reads like a personal essay, and does not provide any guidance per se (see my comments at WT:FICT#Systematic bias for my viw on this). Whilst I share your concerns about commercial bias, I feel that we make have the perfect antidote which is to insist that articles on fictional elements cite non-trivial real-world content. In my experience, articles that are based on marketing material tend to be trivial in content and their style is over reliant on in universe perspective. Because most fancruft is written from an in universe pespective, I feel that the real-world test will filter out most of the marketing flap copy, and any other bias is amply covered by WP:UNDUE. I agree that WP:FICT may not specify what is and is not independent, but this is a broad editorial issue covered in depth elsewhere by a variety of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I would recomend you reverse your last edit, because I feel this section contains too many unsupported statements to be included in this guideline. --Gavin Collins (talk) 11:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe I missed a few of your comments here while I was composing mine, above. And we're discussing this in three sections now. Above, I said it could use a trim, as Phil said in his edit summary. I do feel that the parts about commercialism and fanish devotion need to be in here somewhere. These are core to the issue. Phil is in North America, right? It's just dawn there and he should have a chance to comment. I'm not sure where the others are, but feel that time for talk should be allowed. That said, I have little more time, as it's into evening here. nb: I'm quite strong on the idea of independent sources. Marketing departments are skilled at crafting their guff and every DVD set is packaged with the bonus disc of 'goodies' (none of which counts here), and fan-sites and magazines are hardly independent; they're typically advertising-driven. Cheers, Jack Merridew 11:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

This is exactlty the issue this new draft of WP:FICT is designed to address, namely that it is based on a compromise regarding sourcing. For a long time now, the sticking point was the requirement that a fictional topic should only have its own stand alone article if it was supported by reliable secondary sources as evidence of notability. For most inclusionists, WP:GNG is too narrow to be applied to fiction, so we have broadend the inclusion criteria to allow inclusion of topics supported by other sources which may be questionable, provided the content is non-trival and real-world in both content and perspective.

I would agree that the question of systematic bias is a risk if the sources are not independent, but I am basing my willingness to compromise on premise that if the content of an article is non-trival and real-world, then it will approximate the content of an article which cites reliable secondary sources. I know it is is a gamble, but the issue of bias is dealt with in depth at WP:NPOV, so I don't feelWP:FICT needs to have a whole section on this issue - I would like to keep the guideline as short as possible.

I am therefor proposing that we get rid of the section "Systematic bias", as I object to its opinions which are not supported by evidence. I don't mean to be critical of Phil as a person and I think his views are perfectly valid, but I think this section deals with an issue that is best discussed and debated here on the talk page, rather than being inserted into the guideline itself. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

That would be a hell of a compromise; and presumptuous, too — building-in an exception to the overall guideline? What's next, allowing unreliable sources? Huge numbers of articles already get away with citing trivial mentions. The content on 'disc 2', or the official site, or in the Official Guide to …… will certainly be not trivial; the PR-machine is relentless. And, of course, *all* the episodes and characters are important to the marketing director, so none will be omitted from the non-independent sources. WP:NPOV is really not about in/out-of-universe POV or independent/non-independent sources (in the sense used here), so that's not going to work well :(

Jack Merridew 13:24, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

You may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. The fact that this guideline is focused on non-trivial and real-world coverage is a huge stride forward in my view. Previous drafts of WP:FICT attempted to widen the inclusion criteria by providing exemptions from WP:N for spinoffs and lists, but the cost of ignoring the quality of coverage was too high for them to obtain broad support. Since non-trivial real-world content is required to write an encyclopedic article, and WP:UNDUE aready provides a check against using sources that promote one viewpoint, then I feel that an article that meets WP:FICT should be encyclopedic and be over reliant on one source. The example I would cite is the article Kender about a fictional race, where the creators' commentary provides most of the article's content. Although the creators are not an independent, the non-trivial real-world coverage does provide some some intersting insight into the development and context of Kender from the persepective of them as fictional characters, not from an in universe perspective which treats them as if they were real. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Then we just throw out the bath water; if the tub is then empty, there was no baby to begin with. Of course, the non-trivial real-world yada, yada will stay. And non-independent sources are fine for providing icing, but they're inappropriate as notability/inclusion criteria. Without independent sources, it's all icing and no beef. And that's about as appealing as such an article would be.

( And please, don't let them know that fictional means not real ;)

Cheers, Jack Merridew 15:05, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

←A related concern; the "Real-world coverage" prong states;

"Sometimes this real-world perspective can be established through the use of sources with a connection to the creators of the fictional work, such as developer commentary."

Ah… no. The creators and their cohorts will always have self-serving things to say; it's money in their pockets; it's part of the marketing campaign. As I just said above, this can add icing and can be useful for developing an article once inclusion criteria are met via independent commentary (non-trivial real-world yada, yada…)

Cheers, Jack Merridew 15:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

If we take this out, then we might as well drop back to the GNG. This is one of the key things that we've argued that needs to be in this to meet with how AFDs get kept - we can't use the developer's comments to assert importance (that's the self-serving part), but as long as their information does not fail the cautions of self-published sources, a statement that establishes something about the character is at least sufficient to show that there's a likelihood of being more real-world coverage elsewhere, and the topic should be retained as an article. Mind you, as the guideline suggests, if the topic can't be developed further beyond that one piece of information, further editorial steps such as merging to a larger topic can be done. --MASEM 15:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Systemic bias

I just noticed that this section has dropped out somewhere along the line. No idea when or where. Does anyone happen to remember who cut it and why? I'd forgotten all about it until I went to answer the question above about a couple of AfDs, and was going to point to it because it dealt with the issue that characters from works of fiction with dedicated fandoms are disproportionately (and inappropriately) likely to survive AfDs, and that this is not desirable. I suspect it should go back in, as it provided a really useful hedge against presentism and sci-fi bias, but I have no idea when or why it got cut, so I don't know if we've discussed this. But without it, I'm hard pressed to come up with a convincing answer for why this policy stands up to a complaint like Jules's above. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:52, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Aha. Found the old language. It had some obvious problems that were going to be jumped on, so I took one pass at it. I think something along these lines is needed - both to remind people that a Google Search is not sufficient to decide that real-world perspectives do not exist, and to remind people that sci-fi topics have devoted fans who will show up en masse and skew AfD results. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It was probably removed because it was too much like an essay, and too long. But I agree we should say something here. Let me take a stab at a more concise version. Randomran (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• I think I removed it. I don't have a problem with it going back, but it is sort of a non-binding statement. Protonk (talk) 21:20, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the new version looks better. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• In answer to Phil, I think the section on Systematic bias reads like a personal essay, not like a guideline, and you might wish to reconsider your approach of inserting long personal statements into the guideline without canvassing support on the talk page before hand. In my view, statements of opinion not supported by facts should not be added to guidelines, e.g. "If one were to judge purely based on the availability of secondary sources, one could be forgiven for thinking that science fiction is by far the most important fictional genre in existence". This might make an intesting topic for personal research, but in my view, it is just not suitable for a Wikipedia guideline. --Gavin Collins (talk) 11:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It could use a trim, sure, but it seems to me that it was added back and multiple editors then cut it to pieces. The part you're objecting to came in along the way somewhere. Cheers, Jack Merridew 11:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

"Significant"

This word is debatable and should be removed. "Real world information in reliable sources" is sufficient as it suggests that the article needs out of universe context as covered in multiple reliable sources. Adding "Significant", which can be interepreted subjectively, just creates problems. What is significant, ten dissertations? Are two scholarly journals significant? Or say something like "Real world information from reliable sources that can be used to write Reception and/or Development sections." Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 22:13, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

• If you'd like we can link directly to the footnote in WP:N talking about significance. That's what we mean. As for your last suggestion, if a fictional subject is covered by a reliable source it doesn't need to appeal to this guideline to be included. Protonk (talk) 22:15, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, please do. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 22:16, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Ok. Protonk (talk) 22:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Might be clunky, but this is the link. The addition of the phrase came out of an earlier dispute over use of "developer blogs", where Gavin suggested that the medium itself might result in trivial coverage (it took a while before we saw eye to eye on that). We decided that allowing dev blogs specifically was important but that some statement had to be made regarding the depth of "coverage". Protonk (talk) 22:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Well, say you have a review of a game or film in a magazine that devotes a whole paragraph or two focusing on a character, and you have another published review that does so, i.e. you have the articles that are about the work of fiction as a whole, yet within the reviews spend a good deal of time on characters or weapons or what have you and as such you can compile from multiple of these reliable secondary sources enough information to construct a Wikipedic reception section and in some instances even development sections, even if it's from general reviews of the game or movie, if that counts as significant, then okay, that's fine. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 22:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
        • I think that will always be up for discussion and the nature of the reviews will vary considerably, but if we have reviews of Game XYZ that mention character ABC, we should be ok for keeping them as a standalone article. That all depends on the substance and nature of the review. There are an awful lot of reviews out there that say "Character XYZ is a plucky sidekick" or words to that effect and little else. The result on those kinds of articles is pretty mixed. But once something has gotten coverage enough to meet the GNG, its inclusion is out of the remit of this guideline. Protonk (talk) 22:38, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
          • I think the term is well-understood - the point is if the source is really talking about the element rather than talking around the element. A review that dedicates a paragraph to one character is sufficient for the character's real-world significance. A review that lists mentions the character in passing is insignificant. --MASEM 22:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
            • Okay. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 22:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
• This is always going to be a point of contention, the same way as "important to the fictional work" will be a point of contention. There's no bright line test and people are going to have to discuss it. To me, it's "more than a stub section". I think other people put more emphasis on the quality of the information. But in general, we know it's more than one or two sentences. From WP:N: ""The one sentence mention by Walker of the band Three Blind Mice in a biography of Bill Clinton is plainly trivial." It's going to be easy to decide if there's a whole book, and easy to decide if there's only one sentence. Everything in between will be subject to consensus. Randomran (talk) 22:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Because I fail at grammar

• "Significant real-world information must exist on the subject's development and reception beyond what is revealed in the plot of the fictional work."

Should there be a comma between "significant" and "real-world" since significant describes the information and not the world? Protonk (talk) 22:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think I learned that there should only be a comma if you can replace the comma with an "and". However, "Significant and real-world information must exist" sounds wrong. – sgeureka ^t•c 23:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I thought commas were only needed when you had three adjectives. Will ask a grammar expert on this. — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

According to Diana Hacker's A Pocket Manual of Style, Fourth Edition (Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's, 2004), "Use a comma between coordinate adjectives, those that each modify a noun separately." The example she gives is "Patients with severe, irreversible brain damage should not be put on life support systems." Notice the comma between "severe" and "irreversible". See pages 65-66 of her book. Yes, I actually keep grammar books on hand... Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 23:15, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) A comma would be required. "significant" seems ambiguous. Do you mean significant as in a notable fact (as opposed to trivial ) or in the amount of information (as in, "He found a significant amount of money in is bank account")? Dabomb87 (talk) 23:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

See the section immediately preceding this one. Like "notability", "significant" is a term on wikipedia that has evolved to have a specialized meaning. Here we mean that a more than passing reference has been devoted to a subject--the exact definition is left ambiguous on purpose. Significant obviously includes book or monograph length mentions and obviously excludes one-line mentions but what is in between is a grey area. Protonk (talk) 23:21, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I could have dug into my style guides, but I think most of them are about MLA/APA/Chicago technical nuances. although in retrospect they might have mentioned it. That's a yes on the comma, right? Protonk (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, a comma is needed. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Where is the new discussion?

I arrived here from {{cent}} ready to comment on this proposal (I like it), but there is a lot of old discussion here. Could someone tidy up the talk page and update the links so that people arriving here are directed to a section where new discussion can take place? Carcharoth (talk) 01:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

By your command. :) Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Ooh. Still a lot to read. Thanks. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 01:30, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

GNG and SNG

Random comment before I forget. The hardcore notability afficionados are easily recognised by their use of GNG and SNG. Would it be possible to shift a leetle bit towards stating what these terms mean? They confused the hell out of me when I first saw people using them (in a sentence replete with other acronyms). The first time I really felt WP:WOTTA had hit me. Carcharoth (talk) 01:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

• Would you mind making some of the changes? Part of the problem with being an AfD trench warrior is it makes it difficult to spot that kind of language. I would do a poor job of writing this with fresh eyes. Protonk (talk) 05:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

• I agree. Using terms such as GNG without adding a link is confusing. Reference to SNG is more problematical, as this term refers to all of Category:Wikipedia notability guidelines except WP:N. Perhaps this indicates that WP:N should be raised to the status of policy? --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Availability of research

Appologies to Randomran, who created[4] this section out of the wreckage of the section on Systemic bias. I have been bold and deleted it, on the grounds is vague, verbose, disparate and provides no useful guidance (in my view, anyway). My main objection is to the following statement:

"Articles should be evaluated based on their potential to meet this notability guideline, rather than whether they meet this guideline at present"

I am not sure what guidance this section actually offers. What does it mean by potential? Does this mean we should presume unconditionally that a topic will meet this guideline because WP:ILIKEIT? It is not clear how we judge an article's potential. I think we are moving away from the idea that a topic may be presumed to be important or notable if there is evidence cited to support this presumption, towards the idea that a topic can absolutely be presumed to be important or notable on the basis of pure speculation about the topic's potential. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

• See the Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)#Systemic bias section above. I agree with you insofar as you claim that the verbiage provides no useful guidance but I'm indifferent as to its presence in the guideline. Protonk (talk) 10:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I've just restored the "Systemic bias" as is was all of, what, yesterday? Now that we've had the BRD, cycle, how about talking it out. Jack Merridew 11:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

That's supposed to be a pretty uncontroversial statement about how we apply virtually all our content guidelines. (e.g.: If something is NPOV, we don't delete, but make it NPOV. If something is OR, we don't delete, we do some research and verify. Same thing for notability: fix it... if you can. We only delete when it's fundamentally impossible for it to meet the guideline.) It should probably be clarified rather than removed. Randomran (talk) 11:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

If that is what you meant, then this is covered in detail at WP:ATD and does not need to be restated here. I know that Phil and Pixelface are very keen to link WP:FICT with what goes on at WP:AFD, but we need to keep the inclusion criteria seperated from article deletion seperate in our minds, because they are seperate processes which don't always follow each other. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to the piece Gavin blockquoted, given the clarification. Determining 'possibility' may vary by editor, though. I would have no objection to that being re-added. I've been bold enough for one day, and don't think this proposal should be such a fast-moving target. As to the 'linkage' … I guess I've not read enough threads, yet ;) Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Qualifying my above comment; I have no objection assuming the guideline finds its way out of the woods to solid ground (i.e. independent sources &c.). Cheers, Jack Merridew 15:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I have a problem with it—what does it mean to have the "potential" to meet this guideline? This page boils down to the three pronged test—importance of work, importance within work, and real-world coverage. Notice that none of these depend on the current state of the article. So if the article's current state is not a factor, I understand the "potential to meet" the guideline as: "This article is important within the work, but is not an important work, and has no real-world coverage. However, there are rumors of a film adaptation to be completed in five years, which would lend importance to the work and create real-world coverage. Thus, this article does not meet this guideline, but has the potential to meet it (in five years or so)." That's not a situation we want to create. Since the three-pronged test is completely determined without respect to the current state of the article, the article subject should either pass or fail this guideline at the time of evaluation. I suspect this was not the intent of the sentence, naturally, but that might be the way it's interpreted. Notability cannot be changed through article editing, whereas NPOV, OR, and other Wikipedia rules can. Pagrashtak 14:08, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The issue here is that the threshold is not actually finding the sources, but indicating their likelihood. The equivalent statement in WP:N is "When discussing whether to delete or merge an article due to non-notability, the discussion should focus not only on whether notability is established in the article, but on what the probability is that notability could be established. If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found for a topic, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate unless active effort has been made to find these sources." I think a similar statement is even more important here, because there is a terrible bias towards just doing a Google search and calling it a day. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:24, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, I think you are mixing chalk with cheese. What this guideline is saying is that inclusion criteria for stand alone articles whether there is non-trivial real-world content to write an article. What this guideline is not saying whether or not you should or should not delete articles, as this is decided at WP:AFD, and we are allowing the scope of this guideline to creep beyond inclusion criteria into the realms of deletion criteria. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that's a false dichotomy. Do you really think anyone reads a notability guideline without seeing deletion criteria in it? Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It's more a matter of staying to scope. One of the lengthier sections of the previous FICT was what to do with non-notable articles. We shouldn't be saying "how" to do anything here, this is only a means of assessment. WP:DP, WP:AFD, and numerous other guidelines prescribe advice on what should be done before and during AFD, and they do refer to the likelihood of meeting notability, not whether at the exact moment of AFD if notability is shown. In the generally handling of fiction articles, that's a great piece of advice, but not for specific determination of meeting the three prongs. We should make sure WP:WAF has information on this process, however, since that's a more appropriate place for it. --MASEM 14:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm really skeptical that a place other than a notability guideline is the right place for discussions of deletion. People are going to come to this guideline for deletion advice. I mean, they just are. But even still, I think the basic observation that recentist and fannish bias need to be combatted in evaluating the prongs is important. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I admit the connection you suggest is undeniable, I agree with Masem as WP:FICT is about article inclusion not deletion. Although Wikipedia policies and guidelines are indeed an influence on AfD debates, WP:FICT is just one such guideline, and we don't need to repeat the content of Wikipedia:Deletion policy in every single guideline and policy just because they are an influence on each other. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

No. But we're not talking about the entire content of the deletion policy. We're talking about, effectively, two sentences that warn against a particularly pernicious tendency. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that in the real-wiki, inclusion criteria and deletion criteria are flip-sides of the same coin. And the observation that fannish bias exists and is a problem needs to be faced and included. As to recentism, I expect so, too. Cheers, Jack Merridew 15:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Please feel free to draft a new section entitled "Deletion criteria" if you wish, but be warned that any requirement along the lines that non-notability must be proven will not get my support.--Gavin Collins (talk) 16:07, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

That's not what I meant; one can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on those desiring to include something. Cheers, Jack Merridew 16:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. On the other hand, the burden of proof is merely finding reason to believe that the guideline *can* be satisfied. Similar language exists in WP:N, and I feel strongly that this aspect should be reflected here as well. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Considering that the issues of scalability have come up elsewhere before (e.g. there is one episode per week, 5 main characters per show, but only one quality-concerned fan editor for every ten highly notable shows), can I suggest that the line is extended to:

"Articles should be evaluated based on their potential and likelyhood to meet this notability guideline in the future, rather than whether they meet this guideline at present."

If it's obvious that fans make considerable progress to cleanup their mess (e.g. The Simpsons Wikiproject), why should FICT slap their wrist? On the other hand, there are so many bad episode stubs of once highly notable shows whose fandom has mostly moved on to the next show, but where a group of devoted leftover fans will vocally obstruct any attemps of lossfree mergers into lists, but who will also not improve the "standalone" articles. Since AfDs backfire in such cases because of some Google Hits, wikipedia is doomed to keep the bad stubs for a long time until those leftover fans have (hopefully) moved on as well. The term "likelyhood" is intentionally vague and could apply to any time period. – sgeureka ^t•c 17:05, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Self-reply because I may be onto something (or not): This would also work with the current practise of notability-tagged fiction subarticles and also our King Triton discussion. If his article has been tagged for lack of (demonstrated) notability for a year, it's obvious that the likelyhood of future improvement is also minimal, and that he should be merged. Spinning out an article again once FICT is met is never a problem. – sgeureka ^t•c 17:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, that sentence sounds like it's OK to make an article on a non-notable subject if the possibility exists that it will become notable in five, ten, or one hundred years. Pagrashtak 21:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

How about "Articles should be evaluated on their potential, and on the likelihood that sources could be found that would satisfy the three-prong test." That avoids the "maybe someday" problem while still making clear that presentist/fannish bias is unacceptable. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

• This statement is still not clear whether it relates to article inclusion or article deletion. If I was a pair of fresh eyes, I would have no idea what this statement refers to. --Gavin Collins (talk) 22:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

• I think I've got a clear version in the page atm. Thoughts? Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:59, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no direct link between this and AFD. It simply says we shouldn't conclude that something is non-notable based on its current state, if there's legitimate potential out there. We should clarify this so this doesn't mean "it will be notable when it suddenly increases in popularity 2 years from now", but "it already IS notable, just that we need to give someone time to WP:PROVEIT and WP:AGF that they can (for now). But otherwise, it doesn't say what we do with the non-notable article. We can do any number of things: delete it, redirect it, merge to the series, merge it to the work, merge it to a list... but we don't say what to do here, as we shouldn't. But to say that a notability guideline shouldn't tell people how to decide if something is or isn't notable is like saying medical school shouldn't tell you how to diagnose somebody. Randomran (talk) 23:07, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Real-world coverage 2

This section needs to be bold, underlined, italic, red, big, and flashing. Stifle (talk) 11:55, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Imagine a box with a thick dashed border, too ;) Jack Merridew 12:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Pity we can't incorporate the sound of an air raid siren for even more emphasis. Reyk _YO! 21:56, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Clarify first prong

Looking at the three-pronged test, the second and third prongs give a succinct explanation immediately after the introductory phrase: What does "Importance within the fictional work" mean? The subject should be an episode or non-cameo character that is important or central to understanding the work as a whole. What does "Real-world coverage" mean? Significant, real-world information must exist on the subject, beyond what is revealed in the plot of the fictional work. That's great. The first prong, however does not. What does "Importance of the fictional work" mean? It doesn't really say. A statement like "The subject should have cultural or historical significance" is needed, or whatever phrase is deemed appropriate. I'm not trying to change the intent of this section, just clarify it. Pagrashtak 21:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we might want to re-arrange it so that "more than notable" becomes the crux of the test. E.g.: a notable work will have an article... but a "more than notable" work might support some spinoffs. Randomran (talk) 23:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Three-pronged test for Elements of Fiction

As it stands, I feel that the test for "Importance within the fictional work" is not a test at all, as passing is a matter of personal opinion, and I have already discussed elsewhere why it is impossible to fail the test of importance. I have therefore drafted some modifications to the three pronged test, and I would beg your indulgance by giving it your attention. I feel this version has a better chance of getting through an RFC, as I think outside editors will quicky pick up on the the fact that the importance test is too vague, and as such risks the whole proposal getting shot down. One change is the requirement that the fictional topic has to be the subject of "significant coverage", an idea stolen from WP:GNG.
The proposed amendment to the Three pronged test (to be renamed the "Three-pronged test for Elements of Fiction" is as follows:

Works of fiction, such as books or movies, are presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article if they are notable, i.e. they are the subject of non-trivial coverage by reliable and independent sources.

The inclusion criteria for derivative articles that feature elements of fiction (such as characters or episodes) is not limited to reliable and independent sources, provided that topic can pass the following three pronged test:

• Notability of the fictional work: Elements of fiction may qualify for the their own standalone article if the fictional work from which they are derived cite evidence of notability, on the grounds that the related coverage may go into greater depth about fictional elements than where the notability of a work of ficiton is unproven.
• Significant coverage : The sources should address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive subject. Examples of significant coverage could include: creative influences, design processes, and critical, commercial, or cultural commentary. Sometimes significant coverage can be obtained through citing sources with a connection to the creators of the fictional work, such as developer commentary. Merely listing the notable works where the fictional element appears, their respective release dates, and the names of the production staff is trivial and is not considered to provide the significant coverage needed to write an encyclopedic article.
• Real-world coverage: real-world information must exist on the subject, beyond what is revealed in the plot of the fictional work. Topics which are the subject of coverage that is over-reliant on a perspective that is in universe or are solely comprised of plot summary do not qualify for their own article.

It is general consensus on Wikipedia that articles should not be split and split again into ever more minutiae of detail treatment, with each split normally lowering the level of significant real-world coverage contained in an article. What this means for elements of fiction is that, while a book or television episode may be notable, it is not normally advisable to have a separate article on every fictional character, episode, or scene that appears in a work of fiction, such that the coverage is trivial or contains only trivial detail or information about the plot. Where there is insufficient significant real-world coverage for standalone article, it may be better to feature material about that fictional element in the article on the overarching topic (such as the fictional work itself) or a related topic (such as the author) that cites evidence of notability, rather than creating a content fork that duplicates coverage of the ficitonal element in another article.

A topic on an element of fiction that meets all three of the above criteria may qualify for a standalone article, but an article that does not meet these criteria is not necessarily a candidate for deletion. Remember that all Wikipedia articles are not a final draft, and should not be deleted on the basis that it fails this guideline if a there are reasonable grounds to presume that evidence exists to satisfy all three criteria. Note that an article that features significant real-world coverage will rarely be deleted.

No part of this guideline is meant to preempt the editorial decision of content selection and presentation; for example, a topic may meet all three prongs above, but may be decided by consensus to be better covered in the article on the work of fiction itself instead of a separate article if there is limited information available.

I commend this version to you in the hope that we can get rid of the subjective test of "importance", an idea which was also jettisoned for the same reason just before the concept of notability was created. --Gavin Collins (talk) 00:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)