Talk:Final Crisis

Plot

I've noticed some back and forth on including a plot summary for this ongoing series. It's probably best to discuss it here and get a consnsus rather than continue to revert each other. I think the plot section is necessary despite the series not being finished. Plot sections are included in all ongoing works that i've seen, from tv series to comic series. Do we now need to go remove every character history from comic book characters as all of their stories are ongoing?--AniMate 01:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I am in favor of having a plot section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.190.62.62 (talk) 03:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

The plot has been discussed above. The problem is there's a lot of users who don't read the talk page, and some users who liek to add every little detail every time a new issue comes out. The best solution is to leave out the plot summary entirely until the miniseries is finished, as it is a finite series. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:42, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

That logic is so flawed, it is not even funny. Dont ruin this for everyone because you have no idea what you are talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.190.62.62 (talk) 19:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to request semi-protection on the article, rather than continue to revert countless edits?  Hazardous Matt  19:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring is always bad, which is why I brought this here. I have to say that I strongly disagree with your statement Wesley. Just because you don't like the way the information is presented doesn't mean it has to be removed. Certain types of editors are always going to want to go overboard with the details, whether or not the series is completed or ongoing. Our job as editors isn't to obscure information for convenince's sake,. AniMate 06:57, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

We're not obscuring information. We want to try and write about it in a clear, concise, and well-written manner. All we need to give is the set-up of the story for the general reader to graps everything else in the article, ie. the publishing background. We don't need to give in-depth detail about the storyline; in fact, that's strongly discouraged on Wikipedia. The series is not complete, and it's pointless to to try and structure a plot sumamry when we don't know how it'll sit as a whole. See the discussion here about it; I know there's more that went on, but I'm having trouble finding it. Also, everyone should check out WP:PLOT and Wikipedia:NOT#PLOT for how to approach plot summaries in fictional articles. Basically: keep it short and simple. The longer and more detailed it is, the more likely you are to verge on a copyright violation. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

You are 100% correct —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.190.62.62 (talk) 07:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Give a clear plot synopsis is NEVER COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. You have no idea what you are talking about. As a test i showed the page to my roommate and he has no idea what is going on. This is the worst page because of people like you Wesley. You want a perfect example of how a miniseries can look while it is ongoing, Secret Invasion. That page was near perfect towards the end. This page is more about the author and not the story, that makes no sense, why have an entire page dedicated to the author and not the plot of the story. Animate is 100% correct and Wesley you are 100% wrong. Get over yourself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.190.62.62 (talk) 16:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm certainly not advocating a long detailed plot, but right now the "Premise" section is plain awful. You're assertion that the article isn't a substitute for reading the comic books is technically correct, but we should provide a clear synopsis for someone who hasn't or won't read the books. Saying that we should wait until the mini-series is concluded feels like a cheap way to ensure that consumers buy the books and that they aren't spoiled. That's not our responsibility. Frankly your decision that all plot must be reserved until the end of the mini-series seems arbitrary and out of sync with every other ongoing series that has been written about. As to your links to the issue by issue break down and WP:PLOT, I'm not advocating violating either of those. However, more detail is needed to help explain the impact this crisis is having in the larger DCU. Dan Turpin becoming Darkseid, Mary Marvel fully crossing over to evil, Wonder Woman as the new leader of the female furies are all major developments that should be discussed. I can't understand the logic behind waiting until the series has ended to include these or other plot details, bcause if they're releveant at the end of the series they're relevant now. Finally, to the IP above, Wesley is free to believe whatever he wants and to express it civilly, but you are not free to make personal attacks against him. They do nothing to bolster any arguments, so do us all a favor and cut it out. AniMate 03:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, might I point out that all of the various comic books, ongoing miniseries or concluded, linked to from this article have plot summaries. Some could use massive trimming, but none appear to be violating copyright law in my amateur estimation. AniMate 03:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm new to editing Wikipedia pages, but I'm a long time comic book fan and I just wanted to give my opinion on the issue at hand. I feel there should be a plot section. I have been reading Final Crisis, but as anyone reading it knows, it is a very cryptic series. It certainly requires some thought to understand what's going on and no one person will catch everything Grant Morrison puts into it. During the early issues of Final Crisis, I would check the Wikipedia page after reading the comic to see if maybe I missed anything or to see if something I did not understand was explained. I must say the page was helpful. Unfortunately, I can't really learn anything from the page now. I continue to check after each issue, but there is barely any new information on the site. I understand the argument for leaving out the plot, but as an average user I would prefer a plot section. The Secret Invasion page is a perfect example. Sure the plot section is not extremely concise, but it covers every important topic and doesn't leave anything big out. I personally don't mind reading a little more if I will get a lot more out of the article. I also wanted to note that although we don't know what will happen at the end of the event, we can still explain what has been going on so far. Thanks for hearing me out! Lantern1025 (talk) 22:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Lantern 1025. I have been reading Final Crisis and all the tie-ins, but I am still quite new to comics. Therefore, I do not always get what is happening, and turn to Wikipedia to fill in the details. What is the point of having a page on a comic book series, but not giving any information on what is happening in the series? (This is an actual, not rhetorical question). During Batman RIP, there was a (quite thorough) plot summary. Why should this page be any different. I am really new at editing, so I am sorry if I am not familiar with any of the protocol regarding either the talk pages, or what goes into an article. Thanks for your understanding! Komodo ninja (talk) 03:18, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

If nobody is going to add a plot section, will someone please at least explain the reason why? Komodo ninja (talk) 17:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Something I just don't understand is why Final Crisis is singled out by certain people to have no on-going plot? I haven't seen this in any of the on-going comic arcs lately. SI, Batman RIP, New Krypton, etc all had or have ongoing plot sections with none of the edit wars to stop any kind of mention of a plot. What makes FC so different? 149.32.192.33 (talk) 17:04, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I would also suggest that no persuasive reason why FC should be treated any differently from other comic series in progress has been provided. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest that you all stop being little nitpicky babies deleting every little thread that doesn't meet your anally retentive standards. Put a more thorough plot up, if something is incorrect or suspicious, list that in it. I know this is hard for you selfish individuals to comprehend, but just because you can play god on Wikipedia's article doesn't mean you get to delete entire topics because of one insignificant detail, because that robs people other than ourselves and I love that you all have a bunch of complaints and whining but I don't see anyone fixing all the things you are all complaining about. Go ahead and delete this, I'll just keep reposting it every day until the plot section is back up and is longer than that piddling summary that's up. I will be nominating this article for deletion. -Timmyfitz161@yahoo.com

You people are fucking stupid. Put the fucking plot synopsis up and quit ruining wikipedia with your stupid. - James.

Come on people. This is really not smart at all. The article needs a plot, now, not whenever the series ends (which would be when? nobody really knows!). It doesn't need to be extensive or nitpicky, but for gosh sake, it has to be something! Come on, Wikipedia is better than this!!! 190.157.120.42 (talk) 20:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

As some background see the discussion on this above. The problem was that we were getting blow-by-blow retelling of the plot which was then compounded by each issue being broken down by issue leading to some pretty solid plot bloat. My suggestion was/is that it should be possible to have a brief plot outline (after all if you the plot then read the comics) but this just doesn't seem to work out with the section bloating up again and I assume editors thought it best to have none rather than so much it violates copyright. It should be possible to have some kind of compromise now we have 5 issues under our belt.

However, we do need to keep an eye on WP:PLOT and WP:WAF, which are pretty important guidelines which state that we should avoid in-universe plot outlines. This might be interpreted to imply we shouldn't have any plot but it is worth noting that when we look at the quality assessments these hopes need to be jumped through after GA as you drive on to FA class. So it could be argued that we can just rewrite this heavily when it comes to that (and there is no reason it can't go all the way) but it might be wise to aim to write it so it doesn't need to be completely rewritten. There is a way to have the story without writing it in an in-universe style though. I added one link [1] which gives Morrison's own analysis and thinking behind the issue (kind of a director's commentary) and it should be possible to write the story from a more analytical perspective. Granted it is not such an easy task as retelling the plot but I think it is a worthwhile endeavour and would basically be writing the section from the start with an eye to how it will be in a more stable form.

Also there are others things that need doing if people are eager to contribute to the article - added some links to reviews (now moved to the talk page above) and this article needs an expanded reception section summarising/synthesising the reviews. This again is exactly the kind of thing a top quality article needs and would certainly help move the article forward.

So that is what I'd recommend as the best way to expand the article and how to present the plot/story in an out-of-universe format which would set the article up nicely for a push on to higher quality assessments. (Emperor (talk) 21:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC))

Actually that isn't the "director's commentary" link I was thinking of. They are here: FC #1, 2 and 3. (Emperor (talk) 23:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC))

If anyone wants to even put a issue by issue plot thread, go for it. At least it would be a plot. I am confident that among everyone in here, that discussion could be done here to edit the thread instead of someone deleting the entire Plot. Hell, even make a separate section to list connected events in the book issue to issue so that no one is confused. It doesn't matter how big the page is, we don't have a space limitation here. So whoever wants to make a plot thread, go for it and save the text to your computer so if someone wants to try to delete it, just go on and put it up again. This has gone on long enough, so whoever has a plot summary, GO FOR IT. Yeah!!! (Timmyfitz161 (talk) 03:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC))

For the love of God would someone stop this Jr. High School bickering and put up a damn plot summary!!! You all act as if you have some God given editorial mandate when all we all are, are fans of either the charactors or the writers etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.76.201 (talk) 23:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I just got a hold of a higher up to take a look at the article and the obvious problems with the inefficiency of anyone doing the plot. I thank wikipedia and their swift action. They already archived the other unimportant topics, wow, that's awesome. Timmyfitz161 (talk) 02:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? They might have cleaned up the talk page, but there's still no plot whatsoever. I would hardly call that reason for celebration. Kreachure (talk) 13:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I know. I am very happy that they archived all the stupid inane topics on this page. So here is what I got from FC #5, as I read it at Borders today. The Monitor they mindwiped in #1 has his powers and memory back due to him solving his Rubix Cube that he has been playing with. Black Adam has been subdued after he was stopped from killing Mary Marvel by Freddy Freeman in evil form because he say a "leering old man" (Desaad) in her eyes. Checkmate hasn't fallen yet and it is discovered they have some sort of manufactured superheroes that look like Buddy Blank that look like bodies compacted in concrete (don't ask), all of them. The President of the US is in a bunker with his advisors and they are telling him that they are almost compromised. The President has a gun in his hands and by the way he talks and acts, it seems like he is going to blow his brains out if the bunker is compromised, but that is speculation. Darkseid at the end is reciting a chant and all of the humans infected are repeating what he is saying as the sky is opening up and Simyan, Goode, and Mokkari die. Hal Jordan is declared innocent after exposing Granny Goodness in Kraken's body trying to siphon off Oa's power batter to make her Darkseid's favorite after causing so much mayhem, but she injures a Guardian first. The Guardians agree to send a force to Earth and give Hal 24 hours to get results. Calculator is getting his ass romped because Libra thinks he is a traitor. At the same time, Lex Luthor is given the rear guard and is being a smart ass, until Doctor Sivana tries to stifle him, because, well Dr. Sivana really is a worthless villain who needs to be killed off. Mister Miracle is not dead due to an "Impact Proof" suit, as well as he is telling all heroes present with him to paint their face in a style similar to Metron's in the first issue. That is the facts in no particular order. If anyone deletes this, I have it saved on a word file and I'll just keep reposting it here. If it keeps getting deleted here, I will move it up to the article and I am pretty sure none of you nitpickers wants something as unpolished as this to be progressed to the main article. So lets at least try to put even a "ghettoed out" plot of issues in here and maybe, just maybe one of you will polish it up and post it on the main article. And I'm not trying to say anything, but if you losers who nitpicked about the plot had just put a plot in, we wouldn't have to deal with my terrible summary, so go suck a fat one. I will organize it tomorrow and maybe it can be used. Timmyfitz161 (talk) 20:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

This article provides no useful information. Who cares who drew which comics? Most people want descriptions of the story. Admins are discouraging people from adding information, because they are removing information that people spent their time working on. There are plenty of articles on wikipedia that provide detailed descriptions of books, movies, tv shows, events, etc. but there is a group of admins hovering around DC titles that want to remove any story related information, which in turn removes the desire for someone to want to look at these pages in the first place, and removes the desire for anyone to want to add information to this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.107.3.20 (talk) 21:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

That is completely false. I knock both the admins and the users but I know for a fact the plot is being taken down by the users because the plot doesn't fit their image. I have noticed that users are trying more and more to prune the living shit out of these pages to the point of limiting a 4 to 9 issue series down to a paragraph. Here is what needs to be done: just give an issue by issue summary, that's all anyone wants. Seriously, if the admins are limiting people, that's fine and they could try to block a user like me but unfortunately for them I have a rotating IP address so I can just do what I want as long as I want and they can't do much about it except wake up everyday and delete it and then five minutes later see it reposted because I don't have to work a day in my life ever again thanks to the lottery so I can dedicate my attention to this if need be.

Or write an overview of the story in an out-of-universe manner as I mention above. If done properly it'd be difficult for other users to justify its removal. (Emperor (talk) 02:18, 15 January 2009 (UTC))

Thank you, whoever put a plot up. I've already saved the text so if it is deleted, I'll just repost it. And whoever deleted the plot in the first place, grow up. Look at all the stuff you started because you were feeling constipated that day. Whoever is putting that plot up, announce yourself because I know me and a bunch of users are very thankful for your hard work. Timmyfitz161 (talk) 17:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC) You're welcome. I just created a new wikipedia identity for me, as I had spent years editing some of my favorite pages without anyone asking me my name. I'll try to keep up. Vertebreakr (talk) 14:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

OK people, we have a plot up thanks to Vertebreakr. Now this is a open invitation. Let's just detail this as much as possible. It will be here forever and people now and in the future will want to get as filled in as possible, so fill it in. If you see something that is foggy or could use explanation, add on it, no subtraction. This is a great start. As usual, I copied the text so if anyone wants to try deleting it, it'll be up 5 minutes later so don't bother. We all have a responsibility to everyone, no and forever, to fill this in. Holla 98.27.190.112 (talk) 05:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)