Wikipedia talk:Notability (books)

What is a "general audience"?

"The book has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the book itself, with at least some of these works serving a general audience."

Is this synonymous with "non-technical" (or "non-specialist") or does it have a narrower meaning. Would something in a womens magazine, or a liberal newspaper, be considered "general audience", even though they are aimed at a specific subpopulation? Richard001 (talk) 23:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that caveat could be struck altogether - a book could very well be notable only by virtue of having a large body of specialist academic literature written about it even though the book is not generally known to non-specialists.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I would recommend against a general audience caveat. Wikipedia covers subjects which are only notable to people within a field or specialty all the time, whether that specialty happens to be quantum physics, Klingon language grammatical forms, or Silmarillion subplots. (Many of the popular culture articles are actually highly esoteric, specialized, and technical!) Wikipedia is set up as a comprehensive reference, hopefully of value to specialists as well as to a general audience. I believe academic subjects should not be treated differently. Requiring that "notable" topics be notable only to a general audience (with all that audience's biases) would represent a major techtonic shift in Wikipedia's focus implicating more than a million articles. It would also hurt the efforts of supporters of academic approaches to try and educate the public and bring scientific thought out of a rarified circle into a more general understanding. (So long as done within the limits of Wikipedia's policy, "promoting" includable ideas by attempting to present them in greater depth and clarity is a presumptively legitimate activity.) If such a change is to be made it should come through policy, not tucked into a guideline. That said, I believe articles should endeavor to explain their subjects to a wide audience, but this is a matter of article language and style, not a notability criterion. --Shirahadasha (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

So you both want to remove the general audience clause altogether? How much support is there for keeping it? Richard001 (talk) 06:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be fine to strike it. It seems to equate popularism with notability, but that's not quite what we're driving at here. Possibly it was originally inserted to guard against some sort of WP:UNDUE scenario, but I can't really discern what that may have been.--cjllw ʘ TALK 01:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Strike it. But it is necessary to find some way to rule out such publications interviews in the authors hometown newspaper as showing notability. I think it might say "independent of the book or the author" . Alternatively "appropriate audience"DGG (talk)

That makes it very inclusive though. All a book needs is two reviews (or something similar) by any reliable source that isn't directly affiliated with the author. Books like that often get deleted. Richard001 (talk) 23:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Has there been an AfD where the "general audience" clause has been used? maclean 15:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm very unfamiliar with book AfDs, but the only recent one I know of involved that as one of the arguments. It was never clear to me what a 'general audience' source was. Richard001 (talk) 09:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

General audience, to me, has always mean readers as a whole, not just the readers the book is specifically targeted at. As noted in a current AfD on the individual books in the "The Clique" series, reviews on a bunch of teen websites is not coverage in a general audience. If the clause is struck, that pretty much opens the way to every last mass market (and often assembly line) paperback romance, teen book, etc can have an article, because most of special audience sites geared towards those readers will attempt to review most books published. Do we really want to weaken this notability guideline to the point that every Harlequin romance every published has an article? -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 13:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

(First of all, hello, yes, if you haven't clicked the link to the above mentioned AfD, I am one of the people currently involved in it. Just to point out.)

I've always found the "general audience" phrase too vague to have formed my own clear opinion of it, but I have to say that I would never have interpreted it to mean that sources aimed at teens (or sources not aimed at teens but primarily about things aimed at teens, such as School Library Journal, a well respected source) were disallowed in some fashion. I guess I thought it was more about things such as those academic journals with very small print runs... I don't know. If kept, it definitely needs to be clarified.

I have to question what its original purpose was. What was it supposed to refer to? Technical publications? Regional publications? Both? I can understand the value of requiring at least one of the sources to be from a national publication (although personally I wouldn't be against allowing sources to be all regional ones - as long as they were good quality ones). But, as Maunus says, you could easily have a book that had multiple non-trivial sources from well-respected academic journals but which had no coverage that was intended for a "general audience" (especially if the book itself was on an academic subject). And I agree with Shirahadasha's point about academic subjects' coverage on Wikipedia. I would be in favour of removing the clause.

As a reply specifically to Collectonian - these sources would still have to be reliable, multiple and non-trivial. Even School Library Journal, which covers most of the children's books published each year, does not give all of them proper reviews. Many of the less notable ones receive only a single line synopsis; those are trivial and could not be used to support a keep argument in an AfD (or indeed build an article on). And SLJ presents itself as the "world's largest reviewer of books, multimedia, and technology for children and teens"! If they don't cover "every last mass market book" then I doubt that, even taken together, the rest of the reliable sources for the genre could provide one non-trivial review for each of them - let alone multiple ones. So I don't think we would be opening the floodgates by removing this clause.

(As a side-note is there really any source that is aimed at a "general audience"? Every source has some sort of niche, even if that niche is quite large - e.g. newspapers have political biases, magazines have social biases such as age, gender, race, class... Can any of you think of any sources that are universally read by everyone? Because I can't.)

-- KittyRainbow (talk) 14:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

No one said they have to be read by all, but that they are aimed at general audiences. Political bias in news source is far beyond the scope of this guideline (or Wikipedia in general, really). Most may have an age target, but it needs to be one that covers more than just the target of the book. The age issue is primarily in books targeted at kids and teens, as beyond that you generally have "adults", though I could see the same issue in a book aimed at the elderly if its only ever covered by AARP. Gender and race specific stuff is a far broader area, even with those focuses, and they are still usually covered by something more "mainstream" if it is actually notable. And for the technical stuff above, I disgree. If the only people who care about the book are people in that field, and it can't meet any of the qualifications of BK without relying exclusively on other heavily technical sources in the same field, it isn't notable here. -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 14:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

But the idea of "aimed at a general audience" is way too restrictive. Probably no book aimed at a general audience has ever mentioned The Hopi Dictionary - but academic reviewers have praised it as one of the best dictionaries in the world, which of course makes it instantly notable, and a number of academic articles aimed at linguists and lexicographers describing its compilation and publishing have been published. ·Maunus·ƛ· 15:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

True, however that is why Academic Books are exempt from that criteria anyway, per their own special section of this guideline, which that one would fall under (at least to me) -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 15:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I recognise that others may disagree with me about highly technical subjects and obviously I will follow consensus, whatever that turns out to be. But I don't see how highly technical subjects can be classified in the same way as young adult fiction. According to Demographics of the United States, 27% of the population is under 20 years of age. Assuming that 50% of those are between the ages of 10 and 20 (not unlikely, if this image is to be believed) that means that 13.5% of the population is part of the potential audience. I don't really see how that makes it an incredibly niche subject. By comparison, if a magazine aimed at women under 40 reviewed a chick lit book, its potential audience - again going by this image - would be about the same size. That seems pretty general to me. Again, going back to my point at the beginning: how is 13.5% of the population of the US on the same level as a potential audience of less than 1000 people? I think you are drawing the line of what a "general" audience is way too high up the scale. -- KittyRainbow (talk) 15:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let's get away from all these terms and go for the basic questions. Should every children's book be considered notable and have an article if it has received two or more reviews but those reviews are solely from children's websites/magazines? Should every teenage/young adult book be considered notable and have an article if it has received two or more reviews but again, solely from websites and magazines for teenagers? Same question for romance novels? If the only reviews are from romance novel sites, should those novels still be considered to meet the book notability guidelines? And, again, ditto on subject-specific non-fiction books (sans Academic stuff or stuff covered in other exemptions of the guideline). For example, all those little dog breed books we've all seen in pet stores. Are they all notable if two RS sites for those dog breeds review the books? Then, taking it further, if we say yes to those, then which websites/magazines can be used? Any that meet basic RS guidelines, or must they also be notable enough websites/magazines to have their own articles? Must they be major sites for those focused areas, or can they be any little known site that can meet the basic boundaries of RS, but still not be much to speak of? -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 15:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

To answer the first part: I think that any book that has two or more reviews can have an article even if those reviews are from genre-specific websites, as long as those websites are reliable sources. To answer the second part: I think if those websites meet RS guidelines, they're reliable sources. The question then becomes: do they meet the RS guidelines? The vast, vast majority of sites that are "not much to speak of" do not. They are small operations with no editorial control, no fact-checking, and therefore cannot be guaranteed to be accurate or reliable. The number of genre-specific websites that do meet the RS guidelines is, at least in my experience of the children's literature ones, very small. We're not talking huge numbers of sites here... and therefore we're not talking about huge numbers of books. -- KittyRainbow (talk) 16:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
PS: Not being a regular visitor to pet stores, I haven't seen those books. But I can imagine them, and I suspect that they're all much of a muchness. And if that is the case - why would one website bother to review them, let alone two? ;)

Same reason romance sites will review every Harlequin novel out there, even if most folks consider them "trash" :P Those breed books are all published by the same handful of companies, and usually follow a set format with the same sorts of info. But they still get reviewed by some breed specific sites. For the rest, RS != notable, to me. There are plenty of RS sites that are not notable websites. That was my question...if a site is RS, but not notable, can it still be used to establish notability in a niche/genre area.-- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 16:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, okay, I don't think I worded my previous reply well enough. What I was trying to say is that I think any reliable source can be used to determine notability of other works, without necessarily being notable itself. After all, a website could have editors and be reliable, without having multiple other reliable sources covering it. (And inversely, a notable source is not necessarily reliable, as with IMDb.) WP:RS does not make any mention of the source needing to be notable itself... And WP:N, unlike WP:BK, does not have any kind of "general audience" clause.

Now, I don't know much about the romance genre, but I have to question whether it wouldn't be like the standard of SLJ reviews I was talking about upthread - every Harlequin novel might get reviewed, but most of those reviews will be very trivial ones. (This standard doesn't only apply to SLJ: I can't think of a source I use for children's literature that doesn't follow this pattern, so I don't see why it shouldn't be true for other genres.) As one of the sources I linked to in that Clique AfD was the Romantic Times, I did go and see if I could verify this, but while their website has a search feature I couldn't find any way to sample their reviews without knowing specific titles. :/

-- KittyRainbow (talk) 17:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

SLJ gives the reviews precisely because so many libraries typically buy every book in those series, because of the public demand, and this amounts to notability. Series of this sort that are not widely read, they normally do not buy if they can hep it, and SLJ normally does not review them. As far as Wikipedia is concerned the literary merit of a work is not relevant to notability. DGG (talk) 11:11, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

proposal

based on the above discussion, I propose the elimination of "with at least some of these works serving a general audience." The is no reason why a genera l audience should be expected to be interested in a more on some special field, such as model railroading, and even the most notable books among them will be discussed in only magazines in that field. In such a field, the only books expected to be found reviewed or discussed in works aimed at a general audience might be coffee-table books for holiday presents, or very elementary books for children. This also holds in more academic subjects. The most important scholarly astronomical book that is published, will still only be discussed in astronomy journals. DGG (talk) 14:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Adapted

Criteria 3 seems to run counter to WP:NOTINHERITED and may not fit the general notability guideline: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." The book itself is the topic, and therefore the book itself should have received significant coverage in reliable sources. If the adaptation meets notability criteria then the adaptation is notable, but that does not imply that the book source was notable. The number of films in this cat: Category:Films whose writer won the Best Adapted Screenplay Academy Award which are based on non-notable sources is proof that even when a film gets a major award for being based on a book, that the book itself doesn't become notable. Casablanca is one of the most notable films ever made, and the article is a FA, but the source material Everybody Comes to Rick's is not notable enough for a stand-alone article, even though it clearly meets Criteria 3. I'm removing Criteria 3 in my usual bold manner, and will stick around to discuss the matter. There may be possible amendments that can be made to the criteria that will make it fit for purpose. SilkTork *^YES! 23:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning and the removal. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The point of this is to supplement the GNG. I'm restoring it, and suggest you start writing articles on the missing books from the category you mention. Its an appropriate summary rule, since there will always be sources for a book which becomes rewritten or used as a basis--even a nominal one--into a notable work in another medium. For example, all the sources on the making of the film discuss Everybody Comes to Rick's , some extensively. [1] -- and see. Murray Burnett for a discussion in Wikipedia of the relationship. Now, this is the most extreme instance possible, for it was an unproduced play -- and yet there is material to show notability. Thanks for the example. :) DGG (talk) 04:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I didn't think there would be disagreement on this, as the criteria as it stands doesn't suggest or imply notability, it merely suggests a relationship. It's been long standing consensus, which is written into or implied in various guidelines such as WP:NOTINHERITED and WP:ONEVENT, that the topic ITSELF must be notable and meet inclusion criteria to justify a standalone article, and not slip in because it is related to an existing article. This criteria is worded purely as a relationship criteria: "The book has been made or adapted with attribution into a motion picture...." Where in that statement is the implication of notability for the book in question? It's the same as writing: "The person was the parent of someone notable...."; "The film was made into a book, game, website, song, TV series, or used for the name of band..."; "The company was bought/started by a company/person who later became notable..."; etc. The book was part of the film, and could be a very minor part. Actors who are part of films need to have had: "significant roles in multiple notable films", and the author of the book and/or film needs to have done considerably more than that. At least we have the word "significant" for actors, which is not even present in the current book into film criteria. How about: "The book has been verifiably considered by reliable sources to have made a significant contribution to a motion picture that was released into multiple commercial theaters, or was aired on a nationally televised network or cable station in any country." That is, not simply that the book's words, characters, title or plot was used as part of the idea for the script, but that people have written about the book's significance. We then have verifiable evidence for notability. We could extend that into other areas so it could read: "The book has been verifiably considered by reliable sources to have made a significant contribution to an event, political or religious movement, or an artform such as a notable motion picture. Examples include Das Kapital, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, Everybody Comes to Rick's." I think that is rather more rigorous, yet is also more inclusive. SilkTork *^YES! 19:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I've made the changes as at least this wording doesn't conflict with WP:NOTINHERITED. I'm actually happier with this wording than with completely removing the criteria. It's good to talk! SilkTork *^YES! 19:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Rewording needed on Criterion 4

The current wording of criterion 4 is insufficiently clear on the distinction between being a book being a subject of study as opposed to a mere textbook. It's causing problems. Any suggestions for a reword? the skomorokh 13:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the intent may have originally been to think of it as assigned reading, which is somewhere between the two of them. Obviously a book which is a subject of serious academic study at all will be notable--but it will inevitable meet the first criterion. Textbooks are a problem. Widely used classic textbooks can be highly notable--the difficulty is showing it. My experience here has been with a similar criterion for textbooks in WP:PROF. The availability of reading lists on the web that can be searched by google is highly erratic--many schools prevent such pages from being indexed. Library records such as OCLC WorldCat are also relatively useless, as libraries traditionally try not to buy elementary textbooks. As for reviews, a great many elementary textbooks for important publishers are reviewed somewhere in professional magazines for teachers, though they may be hard to identify--the difficulty is sometimes multiple sources, as there may be only one major magazine for education in a particular subject in a country. Therefore, the likelihood of being able to find this for a book is variable, with accidental inclusion of ones that really arent worth it, and difficulty in showing many relatively major ones--especially non-current ones. I think we should specify that this does not include textbooks, and do a separate criterion for them, which will not be easy. In practice the inclusion of textbooks here is extremely variable. In that connection,I suggest a look at List of important publications in biology and the criteria given there--but note that this is intended to be a very selective list, requiring more than just notability. DGG (talk) 17:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Looks like it will be difficult to clarify criterion 5 until we have had a considered discussion on whether textbooks which don't satisfy WP:GNG are sufficiently notable. Mahalo, the skomorokh 22:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Easy enough answer to that: none of them. What's the article come from if not good sources? Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't need to tell you that there are plenty of classes of article that are deemed acceptable without satisfying GNG. If satisfying GNG is all that makes textbooks notable, then there's no point in talking about them here in the first place. the skomorokh 17:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Which is exactly my point. Either we've got substantial sourcing, and we write an article, or we don't, so we don't. Let's not make things hideously complex when simple is best anyway. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 07:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

That seems to suggest eliminating all the subject area notability guides, which, although a perspective not without its merits, perhaps ought to be voiced elsewhere. the skomorokh 11:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

My point was more about the many textbooks that technically do satisfy the GNG and are nonetheless not notable, which in my opinion will be most of them. Please don't think I look on this particular field as an inclusionist. It's the other way round. DGG (talk) 06:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

non contemporary

"whether it has been recently reprinted" does not seem to be a relevant criterion. A recent reprinting may be what has brought the book to someone's attention so they wrote the article, but if it was ever notable it remains notable. I propose to remove it. (of course, it may happen that a book that was ignored at time of first publication may become notable for the first time decades or centuries later, but that's the rare exception & common sense will take care of it. DGG (talk) 17:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Another issue of "inheritance" or lack thereof

It would also seem that #5 fails the test of notability not being inherited. If an author really does rise to the level of prominence stated there, his or her works will pass #1 anyway (find me anything William Shakespeare or Mark Twain wrote that can't pass the GNG). And if the author and his/her works haven't been studied extensively enough for every last thing that they did to be studied in depth, we should mirror that in our coverage, having articles on only those works which are verifiably noted in a substantial way. Yes, notability is verifiable—one needs simply to ask "Has it been significantly noted?" If yes, we have the basis for an article. If not, we lack the only basis we can use (good, reliable, substantial, independent sources), and should instead provide a brief mention in the author's article or a "List of works by ..." if available. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

the point of it is convenience, so as not to have to bother arguing each one of them. DGG (talk) 08:11, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikiprojects adding additional criteria

Even though manga is not explicitly covered by WP:BK, WP:ANIME decided that the guideline was good enough to serve as a benchmark in determining the notable of manga. However, WP:MOS-AM#Notability contains an additional criterion to the five on this guideline. Recently, many editors have been using this criterion to !vote for keep even when the subject fails all of the other criteria. I've began disputing this criterion as a valid benchmark for notability starting with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nuiguru Mix. Thoughts? --Farix (Talk) 21:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Graphic novels

On August 2008, Atlantima (talk · contribs) added graphic novels to the list of subject exclude by this guideline.[2] However, I can't find any discussion about excluding graphic novels in the archives. Since graphic novels are a form of novel, I do not see why they should be exclude from this notability guideline. Therefore, I'm proposing that graphic novels be removed from the exclusion list and added to the inclusion list for this guideline. --Farix (Talk) 18:35, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

And, certainly, WP:MANGA has long ago decided to adopt WP:BK as the base notability for manga, and we really ought to make that explicit here instead of hiding this in the project's style guidelines. I can't see a reason why we can't add that here, regardless of whether it applies to other varieties of graphic novels. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Add my vote on that matter and only for manga --KrebMarkt 19:02, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I support this proposal as well. I can't see why graphic novels would be excluded with other serial books are covered, and notable graphic novels should easily be able to meet the same criteria. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 19:40, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Still no answer :( --KrebMarkt 07:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

If there are no objections after another day or two, I'm inclined to say remove as boldly as it was added. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:57, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I've notified the Comics project of this discussion. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I think excluding graphic novels is wise. A large number of graphic novels collect previously serialized issues of comics. Subsuming them into this guideline, to my mind, risks establishing a standard whereby reviews of component parts of the graphic novel do not contribute to the notability of the whole, as they are not reviews of the graphic novel but merely of issues of it. This is undesirable. The guideline could be clarified or footnoted to deal with that, but why? WP:N seems to me sufficient to adequately cover graphic novels, and does not introduce a potential ambiguity. I'd prefer to leave graphic novels, therefore, under WP:N instead of this guideline - at least until we get a general comics notability guideline, which we really should one of these days. Phil Sandifer (talk) 06:40, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with Phil. And given the ill-defined nature of the graphic novel, and any differences it may or may not have compared to a comic book, I think it's going to cause many semantic arguments to have comic books excluded, which they rightly should be, and yet graphic novels included. They should both be excluded, since we can say for sure that they are all stories told using the comics form, yet we can't always enunciate the difference. WP:N will suffice for the time being. I'd also be wary of describing a graphic novel as a form of novel. A novel is pretty much widely regarded as fictive, whilst a graphic novel can have a far wider scope. Sacco's reportage, Campbell's auto-biography as art, Satrapi's memoirs, Brown's biography, McCloud's text-books... But once again we can see the arguments such distinctions can cause. Hiding T 11:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a sign that they should all be included, not excluded. All graphic novels might not be novels, but they are certainly all books. Doceirias (talk) 03:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, again, we have a problem, because no they aren't. Some of them are stories published serially in magazines which have never been collected in book form. Which is why they should be excluded, because you have an apples and oranges situation. Like I say, it is these sorts of distinctions which will cause arguments which simply are not needed when we have WP:N to cover areas where clarity is hard to achieve. If there were no WP:N I would understand the view that graphic novels should be included, but since we have WP:N I am not seeing any insurmountable issues which changing the current situation would solve. Hiding T 08:14, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

All graphic novels ARE books. If they have been serialized and never collected, they aren't graphic novels. They are comics, manga, manhua, etc, but they are not graphic novels. Graphic novels are specifically serialized or non-serialized comics (etc) published in a book form, either in a single or multiple volumes. Those serialized works that have never been published would default to WP:N. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 13:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that such graphic novels often share titles with the serialized plot arcs they collect. Hence it is not clear, for instance, whether notability for The Sandman: Brief Lives is best considered via reviews of the collected volume, or whether by-issue reviews help, or what. This leads to a confusion of focus. Indeed, it's far from universally agreed upon that such a collection is even best called a graphic novel. The term doesn't have a universally agreed upon definition. Furthermore, the contents of Brief Lives have been collected separately in a larger volume - Volume 3, I believe, of The Absolute Sandman. So what is the appropriate article for that plot arc? One on the serialized plot arc, the collected volume, or the larger collected volume? Is it notable, in fact, as all three, separately, and best treated as a new book each time?

This is a messy can of worms, to my mind, that doesn't need to be opened if we simply use WP:N for comics of all forms. And I see no benefit to using this guideline in place of WP:N. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:09, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

A series of novels/graphic novels is generally covered in a single article unless each individual book has separate notability (same as any other novel series, and same as we do with manga already and I'd hope comics does). I really have yet to see how WP:BK can not be applied to a manga or comic series that have been collected and published in graphic novel form, though maybe comics are treated much differently. In which case, maybe just change it to specifically include manga, which are almost always published in tankōbon volumes at the minimum (and those that aren't, generally aren't notable except in beyond rare cases. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Japanese comic books (manga) are no different from Western or Eastern Asian comic books. I don't understand why Quasirandom, KrebMarkt and Collectonian are calling for this guideline to include Japanese comic books while excluding the rest. That's an unnecessary double standard. We "need" a notability guideline for all comic books and graphic novels, not just some.--Nohansen (talk) 18:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Criterion three query

I've been directed here from The Tales of Beedle the Bard discussion page.

Exploring Beedle the Bard, a book of literary criticism on The Tales of Beedle the Bard, was published by a commercial publisher eight days after J K Rowling's book. The publication of a book of criticism so soon after the original is a remarkable fact - it is hard to find a comparable example of book-length critical response out so quickly. Would "Exploring Beedle the Bard" be seen as notable under criterion three in view of its remarkable speed of publication? Graemedavis (talk) 19:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I was the one who directed this user to this page. Full disclosure: Graeme Davis is the author of the book in question. Discussion of this is available here. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 06:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Whenever there is a media event, they rush quickly to put out a book about the person or event. Its a very common event. I don't think the speed it was published at is valid, unless it is perhaps the fastest published work ever. Dream Focus (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong: the above is a signed post! I suppose the signature Graemedavis isn't identical to Graeme Davis, but I thought Wikipedia readers would work this out.Graemedavis (talk) 21:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Sales figures are not listed as a case for notability

If something sells very well, should it not be listed as notable, even if no reviews were made of it? If a handful of reviewers gave praise to a very poor selling series, that makes it notable, while something that sold 20 times as many copies, but hasn't gotten mentioned anywhere, is not notable. I find that rather odd. Shouldn't there bit a rule added? There is a mention on the Notability(books) project page about Amazon sales rating, but not everything is sold through Amazon. What about elsewhere? And can we agree upon a number? Dream Focus (talk) 14:53, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Sales alone are not capable of demonstrating notability because you don't know where those sales came from. An author could quite easily publish something then inflate its sales numbers by buying all of its copies itself. Also, if it "sold well", how would anyone know that anything sold well if it is has not actually received any significant coverage in reliable third party sources. Note the significant and the reliable there. A publisher just saying "hey, this sold this" is neither significant coverage nor third party. If a title has been in the top sales charts for its genre/area multiple times, like the NY Times, it is usually considered to WP:BK. However, yes, there are many many books which "sold well" but never receive significant coverage in reliable third party sources and are, therefore, not notable, same as films, television series, etc. The Clique series had articles for its individual books, but other than the first and second, the rest were barely noted beyond "it was released" by reliable sources, so while they appear to sell well to the teen market, they do not meet WP:BK so instead the series is covered as a whole with only the first book having individual notability for existance. Most of those little Harlequin romance novels "sell well" but they certainly are not notable, nor are they top sellers, with few receiving any notice at all, and a ton of their sales coming from automatic shipments. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:22, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

They receive notice from their fans, who notice themselves buying them, and talking about them with their friends. Why do science fiction books count, while romance novels, especially those aimed at teenage girls, don't? Who gets to decide what is notable and what is not? We need a rule of law, not passing whim of whoever is around at the moment. I am complaining about the policy, hoping to get an open discussion going about it, and see who agrees it should be changed, or can give a decent reason to keep it this way. The opinions of a few, should not make something notable, while the opinions of the many are ignored. And you can find honest sales list at some places. I don't think a company can legally lie to its stockholders, and claim it sold more copies of something than it did. Dream Focus (talk) 16:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Since most publishers are not publicly traded, yes, they can play with, fudge, enhance the numbers all they want. And notice from fans and talking about friends is meaningless. If third party reliable sources do not cover something, it isn't notable, not matter how many people yap about it in their personal lives. And no one said ALL romance novels were excluded, nor are all science fiction books included. Both have articles on notable books in their genre, and many more that are removed. The opinions of "the many" are not ignored. This notability guideline, same as the rest, have the consensus of the community at large, as is shown in its regularly being upheld in AfDs and merge discussions. Yes, I know, you discount all of those because you feel they don't have "enough" participants, but it is how Wikipedia works and believe me, if people strenuously disagree they do speak up. See the lengthy discussions on WP:FICT. Things do not become notability guidelines on a whim, you know, nor are policies just the creation of a handful of people. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:45, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Magazines and newspapers only review things that their customers will care about, or which they have a financial incentive to talk about, that company buying a lot of advertisement space from them. And if a large portion of people don't buy magazines or newspapers, but like a certain book, then its unfair it doesn't get the same treatment as lesser selling books that just happen to be featured somewhere you consider notable. Its reminds me of the debate about black victims not getting the same media coverage as white victims in the media, since they know what the majority of their viewers/readers want to hear about. And while some publishers might be able to fudge the numbers, surely there are some sources out there which can be considered safe, such as the New York Times bestsellers list. And if an agreed upon accurate list could be found for comics/manga, I believe it should be used as a reference to prove notability as well. If all doubt can be removed that a book has sold at least a set number of copies, then should that book be considered notable? Dream Focus (talk) 16:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

In short, no. Just because a book sold X number of copies, it does not make it notable, and that number would be purely subjective. Again, if its notable, it will have the coverage, otherwise it is not notable. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

What if it only has coverage, because the publishing company buys a lot of ads at the three magazines or newspapers that give it reviews? Or what if the type of people they hire to write the reviews, only like a certain type of book? If there are a lot more magazines out there which will review anything with Star Wars in the title, making them notable by current wikipedia policy, then will review other types of novels(romance, sports, history, etc) then is that fair to the other books? Just because someone in the news media likes something, shouldn't make it notable. That sounds like elistism to me. Dream Focus (talk) 17:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Ads are not coverage, and just because a magazine has ads from a publisher doesn't make them any less reliable (and really, most of that seems more like a conspiracy theory ranting about the power of the media). And sorry if you don't like it, but maybe if I say it enough times you will get the point: Wikipedia's guidelines for notability ALL demand significant coverage in reliable, third party sources. Period. That doesn't mean just news media, FYI...there are these things called non-fiction books as well. It isn't elitism, it is Wikipedia guidelines. We don't just let every little topic in here, and as Wikipedia is not the place to publish original research and personal opinions in articles, coverage in reliable sources is required or, guess what, no article beyond a plot summary (which is beyond pointless on its own). And, FYI, re your edit summary, thanks, but no one does my thinking for me but me. But Wikipedia isn't about MY thinking, its about the sites guidelines and policies, those things you continue to dismiss. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

"Wikipedia's guidelines for notability ALL demand significant coverage in reliable, third party sources. Period" As I have said, I wish to discuss a change in that policy. And I didn't say anything about allowing original research, or just any little thing. But if sales figures can be determined without any reasonable doubt, then I believe the policy should be changed to allow that to be used to determine notability. Dream Focus (talk) 18:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

• Note The Village Pump and Wikipedia:Notability have been notified of this discussion. --Farix (Talk) 17:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I look forward to getting more input, and seeing what everyone thinks about changing the policy to allow verifiable sales figures to be used to determine if something is notable. Dream Focus (talk) 18:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I consider sales figures one indication of notability, just as market share is with companies. The question of just what figures to use as a boundary is a little tricky though, because it depends very much on the type of book. Various figures have been given from time to time, and I could give my own, but the number does vary from time to time and subfield to subfield. Even in the area where I have expertise, academic monographs, it differences from subfield to subfield, and also according to the nature of the book & the intended audience. The best way of using t hem would be in comparison with other books--what amount s to a slightly different criterion, status as a best-seller. The key problem here is how narrow to take the field: e.g. the 10 best selling academic books on English literature in 2007 probably are all notable, but not the 10 best selling academic books published on DH Lawrence in 2007--though perhaps the best selling book on him for that year is, and certainly the best selling book on him ever would be. This problem of just what to compare holds with popular works also. The best selling cookbooks of the 1990s are notable. The "best selling book on fish cookery by an Oklahoma author for 1995" is another matter.

This problem occurs in other fields than books--the number of records for a classical music recording to be notable is very different from other genres. And, do we count the best selling recording of a particular composition as notable, and is it different for compositions of different importance?

The basic reason for accepting this criterion is that it can be a good deal easier to demonstrate than the search for reviews. (I do not think reliability of statistics is a factor for major publishers, & for less reliable ones, for certain types of books, I accept the relative rank at Amazon and similar retailers. for appropriate works, I do acI prefer it on other grounds also--I have my strong doubts about the actual significance of many review sources as evidence of notability. Certainly I totally reject the significance of local reviews for local authors & if I had to give a reason within the accepted guidelines, I would say because they are indiscriminate. Basically, I think we can accept such arguments based on sales, but need to use judgement. Perhaps in some fields we can establish a set number which does establish notability, but i think it would be impossible to establish a set number below which it is not. DGG (talk) 23:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment Raw sales figures may not mean much, but a national ranking in a country that sells lots of books does. Wikipedia:Notability (music) says musicians and ensembles are notable if they have "had a charted hit on any national music chart" and albums and songs are notable if they "have been ranked on national or significant music charts." So, a book that hits a nationally recognized best-seller list, whether or not the list is based on volume or by the list-editor's choice, is notable as is its author. At least, that's the way it would be if Notability (books) paralleled Notability (music). davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 01:48, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Some nations have small populations though. I would think the worldwide confirmable sales would have to be the way to set it. Books of different types, comics/manga/graphic novels, and whatever else there is, need their own numbers, of course. And textbooks shouldn't count. They'd be bestsellers if some nations bought the same ones for all the schools. Religious pamplets required by some religions to purchase I don't think should count either. If someone is requiring you to buy it, then are you going to read and care about it? Or perhaps being required literature for a religion, school, or whatnot, makes it notable enough. That one might require consideration on a case by case basis, and not be included in the suggested policy change. To get a driver's license in America, you often buy the manual to study before hand, and with so many tens of millions of people driving, that is sure to be a best seller. Got to watch out for anything required to own, as oppose to free choice by the individuals. Dream Focus (talk) 02:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

If sales figures were everything, we would have a lot more articles on works by Yomiuri Shimbun. Physchim62 (talk) 02:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Where do you intend to find sales figures? I would love to have access to that source. Publishers are notorious for keeping # books published and # books sold confidential. Best-seller lists are the only (reliable) metric I've seen. maclean 06:23, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Best-seller lists have their own issues. I remember an article where New York Times editors admitted to having blackballed R.L. Stine from the list because Goosebumps titles would have occupied the top ten spots in paperback. Similarly, Ginsberg's Howl was left off a twenty highest selling trade paperback list, even though by sales it would have been second. On the other hand, if we consider charted records from basically every country on Earth to pass notability, I can see some justification for doing the same for books. Problem being, how do we define which lists we accept?Horrorshowj (talk) 09:10, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I oppose the idea that Sales figures can be used as evidence of notability for many reasons (e.g. good sales is not the same as being notable), but maily because becuase the sales listings don't provide useful content from which articles can be written, as they often provide only flap copy. As [[WP:BK] says, more than just trivial content is need to provide evidence of notability, and these listings don't offer much in the way of coverage that would provide useful real-world content for an article compared with an in-depth review. For instance, there is an ongoing debate about the notability of certain novels such as Annihilation, which fails WP:NOT#PLOT, but the book itself did sell well. If this article (and the other books in the series) are an indicator, sales figures are not always an indicator of notability, as it seems that there will always be bestselling books that critics and commentators will ignore. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Blackballed from the NYT Best-seller list because the author is too good? That sounds like a very strong indication of notability to me. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Note: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics, Wikipedia:WikiProject Religious texts, Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Books have been notified of this discussion. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Translations = Notability

In the Anime and manga MoS, WP:BK was pointed to as the primary indicator of notability, with a sixth criteria added to the MoS itself stating "Has been licensed by at least two publishers outside of Japan.". This was recently challenged as being invalid as a MoS cannot determine notability and a project should not add extra notability criteria for its work outside of the main notability guidelines. Following a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga#WP:MOS-AM and Notability the criteria has been removed. However, that still leaves the question in limbo. Even if a book does not have significant coverage in reliable sources, and does not meet the five criteria of WP:BK, should it be considered notable if it has been published outside of its home country in other languages (2 or some other number). If so, should this sixth criteria be added to WP:BK? In reading the 1st and 2nd archives detailing the formation of WP:BK in 2006, it seems this once was proposed with 4 languages and 10 languages as suggested requirements, but it was apparently rejected. At this point, it seems discussion is needed again to determine if the same views are held. So...thoughts? -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Well summarized.

My thoughts are ambivalent about the numbers of languages :

One is about the implied systemic bias of Wikipedia, meaning that it is way more difficult to prove WP:BK criterion #1 to #5 if it isn't something published in english. Knowing the low proportion of translated works published every years in english speaking countries, it is something to make people interested on developing articles on non-english published works to cringe. A criterion on numbers of language might help them.

Another is the difficulty to maintain and develop those articles what are the prospect of development of those articles difficult & always contestable from the sources to the references. Relying of on few to one sole contributors with limited possibility to cross-check isn't a good prospect either.

My last thought is that criterion #1 can cover non-english published works with the reserve that reliable sources mostly non-english are provided. The statut of reliable source of those non-english references will be contested more often, sometime with bad faith. So criterion #1 might not enough to cover non-english published works --KrebMarkt 17:29, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The discussion most affected by this is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rockin' Heaven where most of the keep !votes are insisting that it is common sense to presume the work is notable because it has been published in four other countries by two different publishers outside of Japan. --Farix (Talk) 23:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment The number raised to 4 by the end of the Afd discussion --[[User:KrebMarkt|KrebMarkt]] 07:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)Never mind i should read more carefully what other wrote, my apologize. --KrebMarkt 09:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Full disclosure: I'm an inclusionist, and I voted keep on the above article.

By the going standards of WP:BK, I think translations only is a lax standard. On the other hand, ignoring that a book has reached an international audience is harsh; just as harsh as ignoring excellent sales. Would it exceed the scope of this discussion to propose a list of lesser requirements -- foreign translations, a somewhat notable author, adaptation to other mediums, publication by high-tier publisher, unusually high sales, etc -- that would indicate potential notability, and clear notability with several? Estemi (talk) 01:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Note: I have alerted both WP:WikiProject Inclusion and WP:WikiProject Deletion in hopes of getting broader participaton. Estemi (talk) 05:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

It would be good if the various book related projects were also notified of both this one, and the sales discussion above. Will work on doing that...and done. Notified [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics, Wikipedia:WikiProject Religious texts, Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Books. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC) -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:19, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Probably not. Given the discussion above, given common sense, and given there are many reasons besides notability why a book might be translated, I would say that translations or other-country publications may be an indication of notability but are not necessarily one. I can think of at least 3 broad classes that are probably not notable even though they are published in multiple languages in multiple countries.

• Minor religious books, particularly minor works by worldwide church publishing houses like The Vatican/Roman Catholic, The Mormon Church, and The Salvation Army churches which routinely publish some minor works in multiple languages and in multiple countries.
• Minor government publications in countries that are officially multi-lingual or which are targeted at audiences abroad, such as many minor publications of the United States's CIA and the United Kingdom's BBC. Common sense dictates that these publications are not notable merely because they were published in n languages or n countries.
• Books published in small countries may be routinely translated for publication in neighboring countries. Where routine, such publication is not an indication of notability.

davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

for an anime, which is where we started, translation outside of Japan probably is good indictor of importance. Otherwise, I agree with davidwr: For most books, its an indication, but not decisive. an academic work, publication in other languages is fairly rate. for other books, it varies. As well as religious books, many books published to promote a POV or published by a cult or similar are translated in multiple languages as a matter of course, and reflect the motivation of the publisher not the importance of the book. And I'm not sure of his last point--in many circumstances I'd sy just the opposite; for a novel, say, in a minor language to be translated and published in English (or French, or some other internationally known language), this usually is quite exceptional, and does indicate notability beyond other books of that sort from that country. DGG (talk) 05:22, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Our issue started with an Afd on a manga published in Germany, Italy & France and is scheduled for release in Spain but no english release in near future.

Some users supported that something published in 2-4 non-Japanese languages is enough for notability and those others stipulating that there no such rule in WP:N or WP:BK and published in 2-4 language doesn't prove notability. It ended with keep. But frankly i wish we could avoid in the future a such pitted battle and common sense can only with people of good faith which won't be always the case. --KrebMarkt 07:00, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I think this side of things is why the additional criterion was ever on the MoS; translations may not be a sign of notability for all books, but they (nearly) always are for the types of books the Anime and Manga project covers. Doceirias (talk) 03:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

By what evidence? Its something that seems to have been presumed for years, but no clear discussion shows that this is the case, only what was always perceived to be something specifically for manga. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 13:56, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Does anyone have any evidence that a book/manga licensed for publication in more countries is more likely to have reliable third party sources covering the book/manga? --Farix (Talk) 15:13, 23 January 2009 (UTC)