Talk:Kingdom of Mysore

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This article is under dispute over its accuracy, its neutrality, its abominable English, and its questionable title. The evidence of this remains at its FARC, and if its WP:OWNERS continue to revert, they should be prepared to answer to our forms of WP:dispute resolution. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:02, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the cleanup tag as inappropriate. Even a casual perusal of cleanup-tagged articles (which I do cleanup from time to time) will show this article far above those in quality. Although I am not an owner of this article, and as I said don't care whether or not it remains FA-listed, I will take this to whatever dispute resolution you care to, as there is absolutely no call for a cleanup tag here. The other tags sufficiently get your point across. Gumming up the cleanup tag backlog immediately following failure at FARC is not good form and an action I consider to be borderline contentious editing. -- Michael Devore (talk) 07:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Is there a more specific tag for "parts of this article aren't in standard English"? I would have used it if I had known what it was, and I apologize to the {{cleanup}} crew. But for now three will be enough; since those issues are far more serious. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Copyedit

As a note to the primary authors, I have altered my original stand on copyediting this article that I stated in an initial inquiry for help. Prior to the burst of article tagging, I had planned on waiting until the content was consensus-approved by major parties before helping improve the copy, if I helped at all. However, parties unhappy with the FARC resolution are using the article's current copyedit status to overburden the article with warning tags as an alternate form of dispute. Two tags of the four may be appropriate, but it is difficult for me to discern project value in this latest behavior.

In response, I have decided to help, as best I am able, to clean up the article content as it stands. While the content certainly has problems, it is of higher quality than cleanup-tagged articles I have looked at (quite a few of them, actually), many of which truly do use "abominable English". If the content substantially changes due to consensus, and my edits are rendered moot or obsolete in a later revision, so be it. Article improvement is progress no matter who the editor or what their side in this debate. -- Michael Devore (talk) 08:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Copy issues for consideration:

• Re:"The Athara Kutchery, which initially served as the office of the British commissioner, has an octagonal dome and a finial that adds to its beauty." Beauty, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder. In the absence of a universal standard of beauty, consider directly quoting a source which shows why people notable within the scope of the article think the dome and finial add to the beauty, or why it's generally considered beautiful, or reworking to make it less POV. "Beauty" can be used in articles, but you have to be careful when doing so.

• Re: "Its extensive pilaster work and mosaic flooring are noteworthy." Noteworthy for what? There are a large number of ways to be noteworthy and not all of them are good. Also beware of changing the sentence to "noteworthy for their beauty" or similar, due to the issue raised in the previous point.

• Re: "One mural shows Tipu enjoying the fragrance of a bouquet of flowers while the battle is in progress." This could be correct, but it is suspect. Is it historically established that he is "enjoying the fragrance" or is it simply one author's embellishment? It's probably clear that he is smelling the flowers (if that is what the mural shows), but without more detail in the reference or the article, I'm not sure you can say he is "enjoying the fragrance".

• Re: "In that painting, the French soldiers' moustaches distinguish them from the cleanshaven British soldiers." As placed, this seems to be a nonsequitur, though it may be an important detail for the article. Could you integrate it more smoothly with the previous sentence(s)? -- Michael Devore (talk)

More small issues:

• Re: "While the Tanjore and Travancore courts also extended great patronage and emphasised preservation of the art, the unique combination of royal patronage of individual musicians, founding of music schools to kindle public interest and a patronage of European music publishers and producers set Mysore apart." Three patronages in one sentence is a bit much. I think the number can be reduced through re-ordering or restructuring the sentence. If you can't come up with anything, let me know and I'll puzzle it out. Since I'm already standing in the sentence's guts, I'll nit-pick and say "great patronage" is a bit nebulous. Consider a close synonym of "strong" or "significant" instead.

• Re: "... calliaphone, a mechanical music player". Assuming you mean Norman Banker's invention, you might want to pipe that red wikilink to either Calliope (music) or the article section Calliope_(music)#Calliaphone.

• Re: "Significantly, the court ensured that Carnatic music also kept up with the times." When you start a sentence with a word like "significantly", it implies that the article did or will explain why the action is significant. Either explain the significance or drop "Significantly".

• Re: "Attention was paid to "technology of the concert"." The article quotes an uncommon phrase without a helping wikilinked article. Can you either briefly explain it or tie it to the sentence which follows?

• Re: "Chowdiah was appointed court musician by Maharaja Krishnaraja Wodeyar IV in 1939 and received such titles as "Sangeeta Ratna" and "Sangeeta Kalanidhi". Are these good and noteworthy titles? Is there a translation available for them, as commonly provided in other parts of the article? -- Michael Devore (talk) 10:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Miscellany:

• Re: "Not only was the Mysore court adorned by famous Brahmin and Veerashaiva writers and composers, the kings themselves were accomplished in the fine arts." Adorned is a bit flowery here and could be considered a positive POV. Consider a more neutral synonym.

• Re: "A remarkable development of the later period was the influence of English literature and classical Sanskrit literature on Kannada." Remarkable? While you might here mean remarkable as worthy of notice, most readers will probably interpret the meaning as an "extraordinary" development. If you did mean extraordinary, the article should back the claim, otherwise to reduce confusion you might change the word to something else.

• Re: "Muddanna has deftly handled an ancient epic from an entirely modern viewpoint." Deftly is a POV judgement call; quote it to a scholar or drop it.

• Re: "He authored dramas in Kannada and translated William Shakespeare's "Othello" to Shurasena Charite." I'm not sure I understand this. Is Shurasena Charite simply the play Othello, but with the title and content written in the Kannada language? So Shurasena Charite is the name used for Othello in the translation and the characters and actions remain the same? -- Michael Devore (talk) 10:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Good enough stopping point for now, it's most small and minor stuff so far. I'll look at more sections later this weekend… -- Michael Devore (talk) 10:49, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Dear Michael, You are are entirely welcome, of course, to copyedit it; however, please be aware that I plan to edit it soon and there likely will be changes in content. The 440 edits made by the two authors, user:Dineshkannambadi and user:Sarvagnya, during the last seven weeks, were not only made without consensus, but also without transparency, sometimes without even the barest pretense at it. Their edit summaries, in fact, were often marked by duplicity. This edit of user:Dineshkannambadi, in which one of the maps from my article History of Mysore and Coorg, 1565–1760 has been added to the Kingdom of Mysore article, but whose edit summary says, "moved image to correct location," is but one of many examples. Given this recent history of unilateral editing and given that a majority of these edits were not specific responses to specific FAR(C) concerns or, indeed, preceded by talk page discussion here or elsewhere, why need I be beholden to seeking that elusive consensus when I make my edits? At least mine will cite internationally known authors published by academic presses whose books have ISBN information.

Since I do consider you to be a fair and conscientious person and don't want your effort wasted, let me state that I plan to edit only the history, economy, and administration sections and will likely start with "princely state." I have just woken up; it will be another hour before I've had my coffee and fed the cats, and will then have a window of an hour, if that, before the rest of the household wakes up and puts the brakes on my editing spree. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:59, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

PS Unfortunately, I didn't get any time, and the weekend looks iffy. So, why don't you go ahead with your proposed edits. I did, however, remove the map (image) that I have alluded to above, since it was added without explanation. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

• The mustaches are described in a popular account of Tipu Sahib; there is a point there: they make the French look like Indians. I can try to locate it if this is not in Fowler's secondary sources. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:34, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I shall avoid adding comments concerning the article's copy in the sections you list, unless and until you notify me that your work there is complete for the next several days and unlikely to involve large rewrites of material in the near future. Thank you for your communication to reduce unnecessary effort. -- Michael Devore (talk) 18:04, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Evidence for tags: Factual accuracy and neutrality

Please read what the scholars say about Mysore during the period 1800 to 1947 (especially, in the selection from James Manor), and contrast that next with what the authors have written in their attempt to keep their portrait of Wodeyar "rule" unsullied. Please notice that the authors don't shirk from blaming the "corrupt local officials" for the "mal-administration," or the British, implicitly, for the famine, but Wodeyars come through unscathed in that section, in marked contrast to what the scholars say. This is just one example of both factual inaccuracy and bias (by which I mean an inadequate or unfair representation of the body of knowledge about the topic). Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:07, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Despite asking you repeatedly, you haven't come up with any citation which contradicts anything said in the article. Come up with such citations first before you tag it for factual accuracy. Also, where is it "implied" that the British were responsible for the famine? You'll do well to stop holding everyone around you responsible for what goes on inside your head. The famine resulted in the death of a fifth of the population, for heavens' sakes! Are you arguing that it does not merit a place in the article? If so, can you come up with any work on the history of Mysore which does not talk about it? The article says what the sources say. Sarvagnya 18:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Evidence for tags: Article name

Please see Statistics for usage "Kingdom" vs. "State" for Mysore. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:11, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

If editors are agreed, as they were during the FARC, that all histories of Mysore are based on Lewis Rice (which in turn is based on Wilks), then looking at the titles of their books might provide clues for an acceptable name for the page. Lewis Rice's book is simply called Mysore, even though his history covers both the pre-1799 period (Kingdom) and post-1799 period (princely state). Similarly, Wilks's book is titled, Historical Sketches of South India in an attempt to trace the History of Mysoor: from the Origin of the Hindoo Government of that State to the Extinction of the Mohammadan Dynasty; note again, it is "Mysoor" (with parenthetical reference to the "State") but no "Kingdom." It is the same with C. Hayavadana Rao's History of Mysore, 1399 to 1799; it is not the History of the Kingdom of Mysore, 1399 to 1799, even though, at the time of first publication (1946), there was ambiguity in the term "Mysore" (i.e. city or kingdom).

Let me state the options starting with the third:

• 3) Split it into two articles: Kingdom of Mysore and Princely State of Mysore
• 2) Go the way of other princely states and call the article Mysore state or State of Mysore, and
• 1) Follow the example of Wilks, Rice, Hayavadana Rao and simply call it either
  • Mysore, 1565–1947 or
  • Mysore region, 1565–1947 (There is precedent of using "Mysore region" in Indian historiography. David Ludden (Penn), for example, uses it in his India and South Asia, and there would be no confusion with Mysore city, and, obviously, given the time period, none with the state in independent India), or
  • Mysore and Coorg, 1565–1947, (if you want to be more explicit, as in the Imperial Gazetteer of India History of this region; here too, given the addition of Coorg, there would be no confusion with Mysore city,), or
  • Mysore, Coorg, and Kanara, 1565–1947 (if you want to include coastal maritime history as well and make it cover more regions of modern Karnataka). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Evidence is when discussions are held and evidence is confirmed. Just calling your POV as evidence and tagging an article wont work, especially after failing at FAR to prove your points. Please start a formal discussion and then we can can decide what is evidence and what is not.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:36, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Christianity

I am removing the two paragraphs on Christianity in the section entitled 'Religion'. The paragraphs, taken from the Chopra reference, are generic to South India and focus more on the coastal regions (as a reading of the subsequent paras in the Chopra reference will show). They say nothing about the Kingdom of Mysore. --Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 14:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Please dont remove anything without formal discussions. This is the only way the article can be improved. Its important not to take hasty steps after failing at FAR to gain concensus. This is a request.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Dinesh, I'm ok with the FA status for the article (and will gladly work on improving it). However, the two paras on Christianity are really out of place in the article. They say nothing about the Kingdom of Mysore and read more like the kind of term paper padding I used to do as an undergrad. There is material on Christianity in the Kingdom out there (a little further in the Chopra reference for example, and also a bit on missionaries in the Subrahmanyam article) and I'll add that next week. However, I don't see much sense in putting generic stuff that is not even tangentially connected with the subject matter of the article into it. Especially in a Featured Article. (BTW, I follow a 1RR policy and won't re-revert if you reinclude the text, but, I think it is a mistake). --Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 14:49, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I wont revert your removal.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Note: I observe that Dineshkannambadi has made three reverts to this article in the last 24 hours; he would be well-advised to read WP:3RR, especially the part about this not being an entitlement. The last two are on the stated grounds that the tags, and Fowler's latest edit, were not discussed. Since the present four or five sections were here before Dineshkannambadi made his latest edits here, I have difficulty understanding this as a correct representation of what is the case.

I shall be restoring this blanking, and hope that Dineshkannambadi will fix the article, or permit others to do so, rather than continue to edit-war for the text he owns. The fact that Fowler's net edit was simply to link to sections for discussion makes this egregiously irresponsible. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Note - And you will be well advised to watch your tone (here and above. and elsewhere) when you're in public. Thanks. Sarvagnya 17:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

On the notion of "failing at FARC"

What failed at FARC was the process, and it is clear, that FAR(C) is not equipped to assess whether an article fairly represents the body of knowledge about its topic, but rather only whether its sentences are cited or its language is POV. And so it was with this FARC. After all the editors other than the authors who actively participated in the discussion voted "delist," (and one who would have voted "delist" was away on vacation), the FA was saved by drive-bys, who either provided the flimsiest reasons in the pithiest language or in the case of one—user:YellowMonkey—made irrelevant remarks about other "Indian FAs" (please see post here), and dumped, for our edification, a graph on the percentage of cited sentences! That's failing at FARC?

I'm not done, by the way, with this episode. As long the primary authors were adding biased content to esoteric penny-ante topics (from my perspective), I didn't much care, but when they do it to colonial India (a topic I know something about), I will take the issue not only to mediation, but also to independent expert evaluation and, if needed, to ArbCom. I will do the same if the primary authors try to protect the article from edits by the editors who have actively participated in the FARC on the grounds that this is an FA and the edits need to be discussed first. What after all was the seven-week long discussion in the FARC?! Whom (and on which talk page) did the primary authors discuss with when they began to blindly paraphrase the first third (nay, the introduction) of Sanjay Subrahmanyam's paper on "Warfare and State Finance in Wodeyar Mysore?" With each other? I wonder why the primary authors forgot to mention either "warfare" or "state finance" in their edits? Perhaps because the entire paper is not available on Google Books? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

PS Indeed in which edit summary did the primary authors announce to the world that they were incorporating Sanjay Subrahmanyam's paper? That's a "ce" (copyedit)?? Even my cats are laughing (and we have five). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:25, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

As a method of ranking articles, FA is almost worthless; its justification is that it often does actually improve articles, and it inspires people like Mike Christie to spend energy writing quite decent articles. FA review is all too often this shoddy.

Percentage of cited sentences is a characteristic notion; it ignores (in general) whether the citations are to good sources, whether the sources express consensus, or whether the sources even support the text of the article; that would require research. Indeed, I have seen this attitude (on other articles) approve footnotes that didn't actually cite anything.

Correspondingly, I have also seen reviewers object to articles that didn't have a footnote on every sentence, even when the entire paragraph was from a source duly noted at the end of the paragraph. Some dozen reviewers are excellent, some are useful on certain aspects; but many are illiterate and incompetent editors who can say nothing about the writing or content of an article, but review to feed their vanity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)