Talk:Kosovo

HEADS UP

"Kosovo officials say the Saatchi & Saatchi advertising company has won a contract worth 5.7 million Euros ($7.3 million US Dollars) to improve the "country's" international image."[link]

I expect them to start editing this article. I expect "new editors" that will change many historical facts, especially those relating to Serbia. This $7.3 million contract has been announced today, January 22, 2009. The purpose of this contract is to convert people to be pro Kosovo independence regardless of facts. They will surely make this article slanted, and highly biased in order to promote that cause. I'm asking all editors start watching this article more closely.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 23:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

So in other words, you are entitled to defend Serbia by presenting lies but Kosovars are not, whatever... 85.144.179.57 (talk) 20:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

All Im saying is that we can expect this [type] of activity. It will only add to the already pro-Albanian bias in the article. It is immensely hard to predict what exactly Saatchi & Saatchi will do in order to earn that $7.3 million. It is important to keep a watch on new editors.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 19:26, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems like the start of the $7.3 million dollar project to promote Kosovo's amputation has started tonight. Tonights' episode of Mad TV mentions Kosovo. Mad TV is a comedy show that has a serious viewership and is being broadcast to 300 million Americans and 30 million Canadians. Being a Serbian victim of past propaganda I can clearly see that this is the start of the campaign mentioned above. It is being used as the first step in the larger picture. As for myself, I realize that there is zero chance that I can fight back against $7.3 millions dollars since they will most likely use Youtube, Facebook, Internet forumns, TV Shows, Radio shows, lobbied politics and other means to promote Kosovos separation. It is somewhat time consuming to fight against these people yet it holds a great reward. So I'm asking people to contribute to this article from the Serbian prospective as well. Please try to keep a watch on weasel editors who add uncited facts.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 06:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

It is really irrelevant whether the pov pushing is coming from unpaid teenage patriots or from paid goons. We have to be braced to deal with pov pushing, of either flavour, in any case. Wikipedia is built so as to be able to deal with this, it's not a problem. Serbia's problem isn't Saatchi & Saatchi, it's the fact that most countries that matter in any way by now consider Kosovo an independent state. Sure, there is no unanimous consensus, there is Russia and China who are being difficult just for the sake of it, and there is Spain, Romania and Greece in the EU, but there is really no conceivable scenario that would result in a return of Kosovo to Serbia. The Serbs should just try to get as much out of this as they can, politically, and let Europe pay them dearly for showing good grace and playing the good guys this time. At the very most, Serbia can hope to chip off North Kosovo from the RoK, but if they want that, they'll have to let go the rest of Kosovo first. If they can't bring themselves to that, they'll just end up with nothing instead. --dab (𒁳) 13:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

1244 is still in effect. It is a serious offense to common decency, common sense, to breach international law. All those countries that seem to separate their common sense from their actions, should be sued by Serbia. Anyways, I just have read that Kosovo separatists have paid "The Economist" to publish favorable articles on the so-called "Republic of Kosovo". There needs to be a substantial discussion on the sources used to back up the claims on this article.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 09:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Why are the references to Milosevic being constantly deleted?

It’s quite clear that the change of the status of the former Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo were made by the time of Slobodan Milosevic’s governemnt over Serbia. Here’s a excerpt from a New York Times October 8, 1988 article:

“ Mr. Milosevic is accused of having reverted to what some described as ‘Stalinist’ methods in purging leading figures from various institutions — chief among them are the main newspapers and television and radio stations. ‘Politika is not a newspaper anymore,’ the novelist said of the nation’s most respected and traditionally independent daily. ‘It is now his information bulletin.’

‘He has surrounded himself with authoritarian ciphers,’ a Western ambassador said. Professor Markovic said, ‘He is ready to use people of doubtful reputation if they are ready to serve him.’

Under the men Mr. Milosevic has appointed, the Serbian press has carried on a vituperative campaign against any Yugoslav leader who has cautioned against the extreme opinions expressed at the rallies. The press has also condemned Yugoslavia’s Albanians. Slovene leaders have been prime targets.

‘He has made a Faustian pact,’ said President Stanovnik of the nationalism of the masses that he accused Mr. Milosevic of having unleashed. ‘Now the devil is out of the bottle, and he can’t put it back.’

But another view is that the Serbian leader has already achieved a major victory through the pressure that the rallies have brought. Last week the Politburo approved his proposal for amendments to the Serbian Constitution to curtail the provinces’ autonomy and bring their defense and foreign policies, as well as their security arrangements and court systems, under control of the republic.

‘Milosevic understood the issue of Serbia with two millstones around its neck,’ the Slovene President said. ‘He understood that the only way to get legitimacy was to appeal in that way to the people.’

”

--BalkanWalker (talk) 06:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Nobody said anything here… so I’m restoring the info about Slobodan Milosevic right now.--BalkanWalker (talk) 16:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

A genuine zero-tolerance policy for hatemongering is needed on this article and to block certain users, plus a new focus on information outside of the subject of conflict and war in Kosovo.

As neither an Albanian or a Serb, I have noticed for some time that this article and the discussion page has become utilized by POV-pushing which is deliberately attempting to cast negative villainized views of Albanians or Serbs, or to push beliefs that Kosovo is either part of Serbia or that it has been legitimized as an independent country. I have seen people on this article accuse each other of being "pro-Serb" or "pro-Albanian" and starting vicious arguments. This is hatemongering and baiting people to start arguments, Wikipedia administrators should take an even stronger stand against this hatemongering, for instance the practice of people assuming bad faith (which is banned on Wikipedia) and are accusing each other of being "pro-Serb" or "pro-Albanian" should be stopped entirely, users who continue do this or accuse an entire group of people like "Albanians" or "Serbs" as a whole of committing atrocities or crimes should be banned from Wikipedia. It is understandable to say that certain groups from these nations did crimes, but accusations against an entire nation or ethnic group only serve to cause conflict on the discussion page and make the discussion environment on this article worse for editors who are genuinely commmitted to promoting a neutral and balanced article. If someone has a problem with the content of the article, criticize the content, but NOT THE NATIONALITY OF THE USER or supposed biases by a user towards a nationality. Secondly, Wikipedia administrators should be more strict in being deletionist in regards to controversial material being put on this page to villainize Albanians or Serbs, as I have seen these attempts repeatedly. This does not mean that information on wars or atrocities by these groups towards each other should be ignored in parts of the article regarding conflict, but such material must be backed up by multiple, reliable sources (i.e. DON'T rely on website material that could be made by anyone with unverifiable information, rely on multiple books or articles made by scholars on the subjects). Lastly, editors should write more about other material aside from the history of conflict and war in the region, such as significant historical achievements in Kosovo - be it cultural, scientific, technological, etc. The section on conflict and war in Kosovo should be isolated to one specific section in the article, while other sections can focus on other material without getting entangled into the controversial aspects of conflict and war in Kosovo.--R-41 (talk) 18:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

It's already under an Arbcom probation as advertised on top of the page. Abusers need simply to be reported to an admin with evidence of disruptive behavior and hatemongering. Húsönd 19:03, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

User names like "Serbian Defense Forces" also aren't exactly conductive to a peaceful atmosphere of npov. I recognize Serbian Defense Forces (talk · contribs) as an intelligent user who is honest about being partisan, but I would seriously recommend a username change if he wants to be taken at all seriously. And yes, we should also clamp down more decidedly on WP:TALK violations clearly intending to just fuel the fire. There is no age limitation for editing Wikipedia, but we can ask editors to edit as if they were grown-ups. And we can ban those who do not comply. I am willing to slap blocks on any account behaving disruptively, just drop me a note. That said, I do think the article has made good progress and is reasonably stable at this point. This is a great achievement for a topic as badly disupted as this one, so, well done everybody. --dab (𒁳) 13:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern on this matter, but I think that there should be no sympathy for anyone who is deliberatly pushing biases whether or not they are honest in openly declaring those biases. If anything, if they are attempting to show good will by admitting their biases, they must also be willing to accept that some of their views might be wrong. I have been proven wrong by other users on many occasions, but instead of holding the other person in contempt, I learn from my errors and am willing to change my views if the evidence against my views is overwhelming. Other users must do this. As for this article right now, due to controversial topics within it I suggest that it be put through rigorous deletionist measures to get rid of poor sources (i.e. websites not associated with scholarly sources or which have declared or apparent biases like promoting Kosovo independence or websites promoting Kosovo as a Serbian province). I am going to make a start with this, but I do not have the time to constantly do this, so I urge you User dab to help out by trying to get the support of some administrators for them to pay closer attention to any new content that is added to this article - if such material is non-scholarly and dubious it should be scrapped as that is the way that professional people make scholarly work.--R-41 (talk) 22:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

As a footnote, Kosovo is legally a part of Serbia. Just check the UN Resolution 1244 and it states that it is a UN administered province of Serbia. Legally Kosovo is not a country. I think it should be mutually agreed that it is a United Nations administered province of Serbia. -rmaslic

Kosovo Budget

This info needs to be added http://www.zibb.com/article/4602398/Kosovo+parliament+approves+2009+budget about the Kosovo budget to be 1.45bn EUR for 2009. Kosova2008 68.187.141.179 (talk) 05:19, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Intro

That intro is pretty terrible now, can we revert that? Beam 00:59, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

TURN Republic of Kosova into an article...this is rediculous. The political limbo of the newly republic should not

affect Kosova having it's own article regarding the REPUBLIC OF KOSOVA.

No POV fork please, there is only one Kosovo and this is the Republic of Kosovo. There are no 2 different entities, no 2 different locations called Kosovo. This article is about the Republic of Kosovo as Kosovo is now for over a year an independent state recognized by 56 countries including all of his neighbours but Serbia. --84.57.225.100 (talk) 17:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland

How comes that even Somaliland has his own country info box on top but not Kosovo? --84.57.225.100 (talk) 17:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you see any other infoboxes on that article? — CHANDLER#10 — 17:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I see other infoboxes in Kosovos article. Please remove them. Thank you. --84.57.225.100 (talk) 18:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

....................................................... In Somaliland...................... How can it not be the top infobox if its the only one.... — CHANDLER#10 — 21:53, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Why double standards? If one infobox is fine for Somaliland, so why not also for Kosovo? And Somaliland is not the only example, there are many, here one more: Tuvan_People's_Republic. Kosovo seems to be the only one with more than one infobox. Why this discrimination? --84.56.228.126 (talk) 04:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Because Kosovo is not only a country, but a historical region and still a recognized part of Serbia in most of the world as that under UN administration... And the only reason you want it up top is because you think it would give more credibility or make more countries recognize Kosovo as a country just because omg it's the topmost infobox on wikipedia. Throwing away NPOV without consideration, if you look through the talk archives you'll probably find lengthy discussions about this subject. — CHANDLER#10 — 04:34, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Serbia is not a historical region? Yes, it is. And look at Tuvan_People's_Republic, it was recognized by no other country but it has his own country box. So again, why this double standards? Do you want to tell us that double standards are NPOV? --84.57.235.64 (talk) 19:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

If you look at that article you'll see that the republic isn't located at Tuva, which covers the region... If the ROK was split from this article to Republic of Kosovo it would have its infobox on top... But I dont see the double standard as the Tuvan PR has a own article and not merged with Tuvan... — CHANDLER#10 — 19:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

No POV fork, please. If some day Kosovo becomes a part of Albania, then you can make your own RoK article and the article named Kosovo would reflect the new reality. But until this happens, Kosovo is RoK. --84.57.235.64 (talk) 19:58, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The difference between Somaliland and Kosovo is that Somaliland does not have a regional equivelent in Somalia - several regions represent the territory of the Republic of Somaliland within Somalia. Kosovo is different because both Serbia and the Kosovo government recognize the territory as composing a singular entity.--R-41 (talk) 16:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The autonomous province of Kosovo was not "recreated" by Milosevic, it existed decades prior…

That is not the truth.

In fact, the Yugoslav Serbian SR “Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija” ceased to exist in 1974, when the new Yugoslav Constitution was stablished. Between 1974 and 1990, there was no “Kosovo and Metohija”. --alchaemia (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC) The action of Serbian SR leader Slobodan Milosevict was first to dissolve both the former autonomous Kosovo parliament and the independent League of Communists of Kosovo, and then dissolve the autonomies of Serbian SR SAP's, re-creating the so-called “Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija”.

Before any editor try to remove the reference to Slobodan Milosevic, please discuss here first, or else I would consider it vandalism and revert the edit. Thanks.--BalkanWalker (talk) 20:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

When Kosovo was created as a part of Serbia within Yugoslavia, it was denied the rights to separate at any time.

-rmaslic

But this is not the point. The point is that the abolition of the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo and the re-creation of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija by the Slobodan Milosevic government in Serbian Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia is an uncontested historical fact, largely documented and comment at the time. There is no reason to deny or hide about the fact.--BalkanWalker (talk) 05:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Any of those sources talk about the illegitimate nature of that "abolition"? --alchaemia (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Using Sima Ćirković as source

Following the invitation from Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor, in 1690, the Serbian Patriarch of Pec Arsenije III claimed that he led 37,000 predominantly Serbian families out of Kosovo and other areas into Austria. More migrations of Orthodox Christians from the Kosovo area preceded and followed throughout the 18th century during the Great Serb Migrations, in addition to the forcible removal of Christian subjects by the Turks as slaves and war booty. In 1766, the Ottomans abolished the Patriarchate of Pec and the position of Christians in Kosovo deteriorated, including full imposition of jizya (taxation of non-Muslims). In contrast, many Albanian chiefs converted to Islam and gained prominent positions in the Turkish regimen. On the whole, "Albanians had little cause of unrest" and "if anything, grew important in Ottoman internal affairs", and sometimes persecuted Christians harshly on behalf of their Turkish masters. The final result of four and a half centuries of Muslim rule was a marked decline in the previously dominant Slavic Christian demographic element in Kosovo. The cause of this demographic shift was manifold. The outward movement of Christians was accompanied by an inward migration of Albanians and other Islamic peoples such as Circassians (with notable anti-Christian sentiments), who often served as auxiliary troops for the Turks. In addition, during Ottoman rule, the distinction between Serb and Albanian was not always clear cut. As Islam became the dominant religion, some Serbs converted to Islam and lost their Serbian identity, and were rather referred to as "Turks" or "Albanians". In the 19th century, there was a "awakening" of ethnic nationalism throughout the Balkans. The ethnic Albanian nationalism movement was centered in Kosovo. This, unfortunately, systemetised the underlying ethnic tensions into a broader struggle of Christian Serbs against Muslim Albanians.

In 1871, a Serbian meeting was held in Prizren at which the possible retaking and reintegration of Kosovo and the rest of "Old Serbia" was discussed, as the Principality of Serbia itself had already made plans for expansions towards Ottoman territory. In 1878, a Peace Accord was drawn that left the cities of Pristina and Kosovska Mitrovica under civil Serbian control, and outside Ottoman jurisdiction, while the rest of Kosovo remained under Ottoman control. In the same year ethnic Albanians formed the League of Prizren, pursuing political aspirations of unifying the Albanian people and seeking autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, although certain Albanian factions wished for a continuance of the Ottoman Empire.

The excerpt above on the article is based mainly on the book “The Serbs”, by Croatian Serb author Sima Ćirković. But as can see here on Amazon, his book shows a clearly pro-Serbian nationalist bias. Should books and authors like these be regarded as trustable sources? Well, I do not think so… —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.52.84.151 (talk) 23:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)