User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise

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An image

Sorry to annoy you once more, but could you check out this image? Part of the FUR says "It is of much lower resolution than the original" which is confusing considering the size. Also, the source seems to be a book published in Bulgaria in 1941, which wouldn't be a reliable source, would it? Thanks in advance, BalkanFever

Am I right?

See my discussion in Talk:Arvanites#Who_are_the_arvanites.3F. Am I right?Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Also I want to ask you whats the difference between Albanian language and Albanian languages, in order to create two pages for it?Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Macedonian dynasty

Hi Sunrise, look at this article, please. It is systematically vandalized from different IPs. Thanks. Jingby (talk) 10:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Will you do the honor

...and take some action against BalkanFever or should I go to the noticeboard. To be more precise - he did it again: pička ti mater gjubre niedno - I'm not entirely sure what gjubre should mean, but I've heard pička ti mater tons of times, usually on football matches in Serbia or where Serbs are present (that doesn't mean I call him Serb, just that's where I've heard it). It's pretty much the worst swear word in the language (something like "fcuk your mom"). Shouldn't he get a substantial block since he has done it before and got warned tons of times. --Laveol ^T 19:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

While you're at it could you tell me what the guy I reverted said? I got the gist, but I don't think google does Greeklish. BalkanFever 23:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's quite clear what tsiganoslave means, but this did not justify your words. You're both worth a block. --Laveol ^T 09:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Macedonians (Greek) article

Hi Perfect Sunrise, I had a question for you:

1. Why is there a Macedonians (Greeks), I thought the subgroup would remain within Macedonia (Greece).
2. If Greeks with a Macedonian regional identity (subgroup) get their own article, why are Aegean Macedonians (a subgroup) forced to be apart of Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia? Shouldn't they get their own article also?

Mactruth (talk) 05:26, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The WikiProject Greece April 2009 newsletter

The April 2009 issue of the WikiProject Greece newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.--Yannismarou (talk) 01:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Macedonians (Greeks)

I nominated the article for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Macedonians (Greeks). Cheers!--

Arvanites

I have an answer on Talk:Arvanites.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:03, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Historian19

Ecuadorian Stalker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) looks like him? O Fenian (talk) 11:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Your 48-hour block of Oda Mari

User:Oda Mari today edited Liancourt Rocks twice. Each time, she reverted the article to the state in which it had been before another editor changed it. Thus she was preserving the status quo. Any change to the status quo requires agreement on the discussion page. Does a return to it also require agreement?

Yes, the edit box of the page says Users who make more than 1 revert in a 24-hour period will be blocked. So what was Oda Mari to do -- team-revert? Bring up the matter at AN/I? Maybe she goofed, but she hardly did so to the tune of a 48-hour vacation, and if you're not going to warn her before you block her you might at least put a note on her talk page after you've blocked her. This is, after all, an amicable and cooperative editor of long standing who had never before been blocked for even a single hour. -- Hoary (talk) 15:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, well, I do admit that when it comes to Liancourt Rocks, I tend to act on the principle of "block first, ask questions later". There is, after all, a huge big notice on the talk page explaining what is expected of editors at this article. The point about reverting is actually not that "reverting to the status quo" gives you any better standing, and it's definitely not the case that any change requires prior discussion. Rather to the contrary – WP:BOLD still holds. If somebody makes a self-evidently, blatant tendentious edit, it can be reverted, once; if somebody makes a potentially good-faith edit it's encumbent on whoever wants to revert to first go and discuss. My block notice contained a clear link to these rules of engagement, I believe, and I also think the editor in question has been around for long enough to know the article and its situation.

I didn't check more closely about his/her good standing. Of course he/she can be unblocked if they provide a reasonable unblock request. But personally I'd like to see a few words from them first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I am also puzzled about the lack of a notice on the talk-page. I went to Oda Mari's talk page expecting to see an explanation of what went on, and instead had to track down the incident at the article. And, having done so, I'll echo Hoary's doubts as to whether Oda Mari's actions warranted a 48-hour block. Dekkappai (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I have a problem with the the principle of "block first, ask questions later" -- not so much because it worked out awkwardly in this one instance, but rather because your principle is arguably justified by the context of Liancourt Rocks and its edit history. I wish it were otherwise.

Hoary and Dekkappai have addressed themselves to practical issues, which is all that can be done for now; but one thing bears reiterating: We all hope for something better. --Tenmei (talk) 02:43, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello. First of all, let me apologize my ignorance of special zero tolerance rules. If I had known the rules, I wouldn't have done that revert. The next thing I did after I noticed I was blocked was to e-mail you that I tried to add a reference to my restored information. I didn't know whether you were on line or not, but decided to wait for your reply for a while. Then, while waiting, I went to IRC to seek help and advice because I wanted to be unblocked privately and was told to request an unblock. After I did what I had to do in real life, I requested an unblock and I was unblocked in minutes. I hope you will understand my good faith and it was my careless mistake. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 05:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Copyright

Hi Fut. I would like to know if the photographies of Fred Boissonnas are in public domain. As I saw there are some photos uploaded, but I do not know if they are really in public domain, since I have no idea on when the author died, and if the Swiss copyright law, which is a bit strange in photos copyrights applies on them. Can you help me?Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Vevi

Do I have to repeat all my countless arguments why the "Macedonian Slavic" wording is ridiculously ambuguous and inappropriate? There was a clear consensus that it sucks, so I wouldn't insist on it. I'll wait with the revert, but my position remains adamant. Unless you have some very strong new arguments though, I'm going back to the more correct and less-POV version. Todor→Bozhinov 18:40, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

No, you don't have to repeat all your countless arguments. They didn't convince me the first time; they won't convince me now. There was equally strong consensus that your version sucks just as much. Bad luck. And mine isn't "ridiculously ambiguous", it's "deliberately ambiguous", because that's a Good Thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I back up Todor here, mainly cause it is really POVish to have it like that. Could you point me to the discussions so I can read the arguments myself? --Laveol ^T 19:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Then you'd better think of another version because I'm vehemently opposed to this one, and don't expect me to believe you don't know why. I've said it before, but it's worth reminding you that a version that a major side strongly disagrees with is not a good version by any standard. Just forget about it, it doesn't work, plain and simple. It can't be a good thing that it's ambiguous, at least in Wikipedia, you should know that. The link to "Macedonian language" is more disturbing that it is ambiguous, actually.

Accept the fact that I'm not putting up with "Macedonian Slavic" and I'll do anything that is in my powers to prevent the usage of this wording. I don't mean to sound threatening or anything, but my revert is due tomorrow because you have done nothing to convince me.

I'm still eager to find a working solution though, and I'm always open for good alternative ideas. So if you feel like it, do suggest one or at least try to describe what a working solution would be in your opinion so I can do the brainstorming myself.

Yeah, in short, this isn't staying the way it is now but I'm confident we can come up with something better if we co-operate

Laveol, the discussion is at Talk:Florina#Why "Macedonian Slavic" is unacceptable. Todor→Bozhinov 19:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

You know what? I'm fucking sick of you all. Of all this stupid idiotic lot of people pushing their separate national agendas. That includes just about every single person editing these topics. I'm so fucking sick of it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Everyone's sick of it, man. I'm afraid you have an especially bad case of the Balkan Fever :-(

Take one of these a day so your head don't asplode. BalkanFever 03:05, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, "local Slavic" is unacceptable because it implies a degree of linguistic precision that is simply not warranted. It's either "Macedonian Slavic" (with whatever link target), or straight "Macedonian/Bulgarian". My personal preference for the place name issue would actually be to just have either straight "Macedonian" or straight "Bulgarian" and mechanically go by geographical proximity: whatever country is nearer. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

You know somewhere in the ubiquitous Danforth's book, one immigrant from Florina (with a Greek national consciousness) said something like "We're Greeks. We speak Macedonian, but we're Greek." BalkanFever 10:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Todor, you talk about compromise and reaching an agreement. But you dont actually care about it. Macedonian Slavic was the compromise. It combined Macedonian + Slavic and redirected to a chapter about the language in Greece. Please give us your input. It would be appreciated. PMK1 (talk) 11:05, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Future Perf, as for your edit summary at Konstantinos Christou it is a good idea. Let us finally decide on what to call the places.

Here is my proposal,

• for all place names in West Macedonia and Central Macedonia (except Serres prefecture) we use the term [[Macedonian Slavic]]
• for all place names in East Macedonia and Serres prefecture we use a combination of [[Macedonian Slavic]]/[[Bulgarian]]
• for all place names in Thrace we use the term [[Bulgarian]]
• for all people from Aegean Macedonia whose ethnicity is disputed we use [[Macedonian Slavic]]/[[Bulgarian]]
• for all people from Aegean Macedonia but who are ethnically Macedonian we use [[Macedonian Slavic]]

This is a fair and appropriate arrangement which takes in to account the actual linguistic classification of the local dialects. Any major disagreements? PMK1 (talk) 11:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Sunshine

I recognize what a good contribution you make to Wikipedia and how much you care about the topics you focus on. But I also notice that in the last couple of weeks your tone to everyone has become increasingly jagged. We're not all your enemies and don't want your positive contributions to the project to become drowned in the negativity. Not all of us are ignorant jackasses. (Taivo (talk) 19:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC))

I think Fut.Perf. just needs a break. Balkan-related discussions can get quite stressful and wikistress is not to be underestimated, I've had a recent experience with that. I apologize if I said anything wrong above, but I was honestly trying to find a working solution for a pending issue that I find important enough. I really don't know what provoked this, but it's okay anyway, I can't blame Fut.Perf. for reacting like this. Stress sucks. Todor→Bozhinov 19:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Taivo, I have never had a problem about having a nice collegial discussion with you. Even if we disagree on some stuff, we can disagree as colleagues and on a decent intellectual level of argument. I'm sorry if I came across as hostile to you. Disagreement over our mutual academic interests is something entirely different from having to deal with people with national agendas. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing the air. (Taivo (talk) 20:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC))

Makedoniya

Dear Fut. Perf., you wrote:

“better to treat the "j" and "y" spellings together, since they are used interchangeably for both languages (see e.g. http://www.promacedonia.org/v_mak/index.html for the name of the Bg newspaper.”

That is not the case with Bulgarian language though, where "j" and "y" are not used interchangeably. The letter "j" was used in the past — as a matter of fact until 1999, the year of your quote. Since then "y" has been used instead, according to governmental regulations that became part of Bulgarian Law by way of the Transliteration Law passed earlier this year.

Therefore, there are no reasons for Bulgarian entries to appear under "Makedonija" title. I am mot going into reversals, hopefully you would reconsider your last edit. Best, Apcbg (talk) 20:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and we all know you have your very personal interest in reminding the world of this Very Important Fact. But the Bulgarian standardisation doesn't change the fact that readers will still come across the "j" spellings out there in the real world and may be searching for them. By the way, putting a link on the Makedoniya page is really hiding it from sight. Nobody ever enters "Makedoniya" in the search box. Look at my statistics on Talk:Macedonia. During the whole month of March, a whopping 10 readers world-wide ever conceived of the idea that there might be something worth reading at Makedoniya, as opposed to over 600 who tried the spelling with "j". Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I am really sorry for your attitude, Fut. Apcbg (talk) 04:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

What, for pointing out that you have been pushing adherence to "your" system here on WP with an obvious WP:COI? But whatever. By the way, is it really true that this law is threatening private citizens with punishment if they don't comply with those transliteration norms in their publications?? Wow. I am really sorry for you, for having to live in a banana republic with no academic freedom. What a shame. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:20, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I see myself as an ilunga (I know the word may well not exist, I just like it), so I thought I should remind you your sarcasm is bordering on national slurs here. Please pick your words more carefully or I'll have to report you despite my reluctance. And I'm still open for suggestions on the issue I attempted to discuss above, by the way. Todor→Bozhinov 10:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

What the...? Calling your country a banana republic is not sarcasm, it expresses a totally sincere feeling of horror. Nothing personal, no slur, just complete amazement at this utterly ludicrous violation of intellectual freedom. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I know what you mean. They sent the local version of a SWAT team when I accidentally used a j in a private chat window. Must suck to live in a banana republic, but at least it's not a grapefruit monarchy.

Apparently, a standardized government-approved transliteration system is a feature of stalinistic demagoguery? Come on, I actually agree with you on your dispute with Apcbg, but calling my country a 'banana republic' over that is an unprovoked slur. Todor→Bozhinov 10:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course, there's nothing wrong with a standardised system. But forcing the system on private individuals for use in their personal publications, under threats of penal sanctions, is just incredible. As an academic, I'm seriously horrified even at the thought. No, it's not Stalinist repression, but the fact that this country's state organs could even conceive of such a rule and not immediately realise how ludicrous that was shows that they have no solid grounding in the traditions of democratic freedom and the Rule of Law. So "banana republic" fits fairly well. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

(undent) Actually, the Bulgarian Academy seems to be promoting names in -ия to be transliterated as neither -ija nor -iya, but simply -ia, by way of exception [1]. That also fits a common practice. "Makedonia Square", the "Makedonia" chalet and the historical Makedonia newspaper are quite frequently transliterated just like that. Should we re-merge the Makedonija dab page also with the Makedonia one after all? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay, it's official: The law itself says "Буквеното съчетание 'ия', когато е в края на думата, се изписва и предава чрез 'ia'." [2]. Quick, change those pages, or Apcbg will be fined up to 5000 Leva for publishing an encyclopedia in contravention of the rules. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I for one have no problem with that - Preston Makedonia comes to mind. BalkanFever 10:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course Makedonia is the standard transliteration from Bulgarian per the ия thing. But what's the entire "penal sanction" scare that you've gone mental about anyway? You seem to actually believe this, which is kind of worrying. If that does exist, you're free to bash the Ministry of Education/Culture/whichever, but I still demand an apology because I find the 'banana republic' thing offensive and you seem to be enjoying that. Todor→Bozhinov 12:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, did you read the link? [3]. Of course, I only read it through google translator. The relevant passages in google English are: "A person who compile, issue or publish dictionaries, encyclopedias, textbooks and teaching materials, training, advertising and other reference materials, must apply the rules of transliteration, established by this law." (="Лице, което съставя, издава или публикува речници, енциклопедии, учебници и учебни помагала, учебни, рекламни и други справочни материали, е длъжно да прилага правилата за транслитерация, установени с този закон.") plus: "Art. 13. 13. Който съставя или издава речници, енциклопедии, учебници и учебни помагала в нарушение на чл. He compiled and issued dictionaries, encyclopedias, textbooks and teaching materials in violation of Art. 2, ал. 2, para. 5, се наказва с глоба от 400 до 800 лв., съответно с имуществена санкция от 2000 до 5000 лв. 5, shall be punished by a fine of 400 to 800 leva, with penalty payment of EUR 2000 to 5000" (="Чл. 13. Който съставя или издава речници, енциклопедии, учебници и учебни помагала в нарушение на чл. 2, ал. 5, се наказва с глоба от 400 до 800 лв., съответно с имуществена санкция от 2000 до 5000 лв.") – I will apologise if you can show me how I misread that. Otherwise, the "banana republic" stands. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Makedonia is okay with me — Bulgarian Roman spelling for Bulgarian names. Personal preferences, OR or ad hominem are not the Wiki way. Apcbg (talk) 12:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Fut, did you just set a condition for retracting an insult? I didn't say anywhere that I'm accepting any conditions: it's like "Okay fine, I won't call you the N-word if you give me 50 bucks". It's a shame that you're so willing to dub my country a 'banana republic' because of a funny law, you'd be amazed how many ridiculous laws exist in much older democracies. Here's a read. I'm sorry, but if your next comment here doesn't contain an apology, I'll have to report you. Todor→Bozhinov 13:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Report me. Banana republic, banana republic, banana republic. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Andreas Tsipas

Hello Fut Perf. I am just bringing to your attention of Andreas Tsipas. Another case of promacedonia.org gone out of control. Apparently he is also Bulgarian. When you have time please check it out. PMK1 (talk) 00:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Promacedonia is not a source. Todor→Bozhinov 10:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

That was my point. It begins with a BULL and ends with HIT. PMK1 (talk) 11:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Was your point really that whether a source was republished on Promacedonia or not is totally irrelevant as to its credibility? Promacedonia is just an online library, I think it's the eleventh-hundredth time I've said that. You cannot put the credibility of widely accepted academic publications in any doubt just because they've been republished on some website. Todor→Bozhinov 12:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

My final answer is: "Bulla ice cream is a hit". Lock it in, Eddie. BalkanFever 12:18, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Well done! Now for 1,000 dollars .... :) PMK1 (talk) 13:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)