Talk:Wineville Chicken Coop murders

Psychopathic versus psychiatric

I agree with the change from psychopathic to psychiatric. Although psychiatric ward is the preferred current day term, the source material uses the term psychopathic ward. The primary goal of psychopathic wards was to lock away dangerous individuals rather than to cure the mentally ill individual. --Dan Dassow (talk) 01:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Separate article on Gordon Stewart Northcott

Gordon Stewart Northcott and the Wineville Chicken Murders are so intertwined that a separate article on Northcott is probably not justified. --Dan Dassow (talk) 12:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Please note: there is currently also no article on Christine Collins or Walter Collins. These both redirect to this article. Creating articles for these people would be even more problematical since the names are relatively common. --Dan Dassow (talk) 09:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, I wonder if Christine Collins should redirect here, or to to a disambiguation page that contains links to both this and Changeling (film). Thoughts? Steve ^{T • C} 20:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Analogy would be John F. Kennedy disambiugation page pointing to his biography and the movie JFK. Doesn't make much sense to me. Christine Collins should point here, no disambiguation. User is made aware of movie in first paragraph of this article.Repliedthemockturtle (talk) 02:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I also asked at WP:NCP, and it was confirmed that the current redirect was the right one. I just wasn't entirely sure. Thanks, Steve ^{T • C} 08:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Christine Collins should have her own separate page.

Case details

There seems to be a lot of information missing from this article...the "case" section, for starters, begins "Among the boys kidnapped" or something like that, but there is no background. Were only boys kidnapped? Why "Chicken [Coop] Murders"? Why are all words in this article name capitalized? Tomer^talk 16:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, there is a lot of information missing from the article. I hope to expand this article (with proper citations) when after Changeling premieres on October 31, 2008. Also, not aware of the conventions for article titles at the time I created the article. If anyone would care to move this article to Wineville chicken murder and redirect this article, it probably would be a good idea.--Dan Dassow (talk) 20:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Addressing only the naming issue, a websearch indicates that the preferred capitalization for these murders is to capitalize the first letter of each word...there's another topic tho...and that's why "Wineville Chicken Murders" rather than "Wineville Chicken Coop Murders"? The former seems to indicate that either the murderer(s) or the murderees were chickens... A few links with no remarks on their usefulness: [1][2][3][4] The last one is the only one that doesn't use "Coop" in the name. (Another one, www.associatedcontent.com/article/778237/the_wineville_chicken_coop_murders.html is blocked by the spam filter, which is fine, check it at your leisure.) This other ghit, a blog post, doesn't use "Coop" either, but that's because all its information seems to be taken from this article... My recommendation would be to move this article to Wineville Chicken Coop Murders asap...if anyone were to ask... ;-) Tomer^talk 23:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I checked with an expert on the case. The preferred name for this case is "Wineville Chicken Coop Murders". How, do I move this to the proper place? --Dan Dassow (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I've taken care of this, and responded on your talkpage. Cheers, Tomer^talk 22:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I added a section on the murders themselves. There isn't a ton of information on the web about the murders which isn't related to the Collins case.--24.218.221.152 (talk) 22:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Most of the information available on this case is from old newspaper articles and other sources not readily available on the web.--Dan Dassow (talk) 23:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. If the information is available in old newspapers, include the information from those old newspapers, and cite them properly. Just because something isn't readily accessibly online doesn't mean it isn't a reliable source (God forbid!)...it just means that they're harder to verify from my laptop. Something to check on, if you can find the articles in a scannable form, is whether the copyright has expired on these newspaper articles, and include scanned images of the articles. Just an idear. Tomer^talk 10:04, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The original police investigation and court records should be available through Los Angeles Police Department and Los Angeles County Superior Court. It means a lot of reading and occasionally a legal dictionary, but it can be reconstruced by someone living in the area. 71.34.68.186 (talk) 16:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)A. REDDSON

The dates aren't consistent

The article says: In October of 1930, Northcott sent a telegram to Ms. Collins, saying that he had lied when he said that Walter was not one of his victims. He said that he would tell her the truth if she came to visit him, but when Ms. Collins arrived and confronted him, he claimed that he didn't know anything about it and was innocent. But it also says: Judge Freeman sentenced Northcott to be hanged[8] and the sentence was carried out October 2, 1930. Two days is an awfully short time to send a telegram, get a visit from Ms. Collins, and be hanged. Are we certain of this telegram story? - Brian Kendig (talk) 17:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

As the article is currently written, the timeline is confusing. I will see what I can do to correct this with proper citations. Judge Freeman sentenced Northcott on February 13, 1929 to be hanged. Northcott repeatedly claimed that he killed up to twenty boys and then denied it. Northcott met with Christine Collins and the mother of the Winslow boys the night before he was hanged. At that time Northcott denied killing Walter Collins, Lewis Winslow and Nelson Winslow. He was hanged on October 2, 1930.--Dan Dassow (talk) 21:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC) [Corrected dates]--Dan Dassow (talk) 21:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

i went to see the movie and it did all happen in two days..he did it 2 days before because he figured she wouldnt come and he didnt really want to face her —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.195.167 (talk) 05:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this an article about the movie or the facts of the case??

This article should be about the actual case not the film Changeling (film). Unfortunately, people have been convoluting the film and the actual case. --Dan Dassow (talk) 19:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with the above, that many of the dates in the article and the corresponding source materials have not been synchronized. At some point, this article will need to be rewritten so that these inconsistencies and discrepancies are eliminated. As the article stands now, much of it doesn't make sense, especially chronologically... Stevenmitchell (talk) 02:58, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Jack H. Brown

http://www.contracostatimes.com/california/ci_10871317
Father of Stater Bros. chairman played a role in legendary Wineville case
By Joe Nelson, Staff Writer
Article Launched: 10/31/2008 10:05:07 PM PDT

Standing nearly 7 feet tall when clad in his signature white Stetson cowboy hat and cowboy boots, Jack H. Brown was a feared and respected lawman while serving as San Bernardino County Sheriff Walter Shay's top investigator in the 1920s.

The article has some interesting information about the case. I am not certain how to fit it into the Wineville Chicken Coop Murder article.

--Dan Dassow (talk) 21:09, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Concern raised about accuracy of article

In Revision as of 21:53, November 1, 2008 user 71.160.187.225 expressed the concern about the accuracy of the section The Murders, stating:

"You need to read the story by historian in Inland Empire Magazine. This is not exactly accurate what has been written here."

Unfortunately, the article in Inland Empire Magazine is not generally available.

--Dan Dassow (talk) 01:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Lead in needed for Hutchens

I know that this article is still evolving, but it seems that Arthur Hutchens is rather suddenly thrust into the article in the "Case and Trial" section. If someone more knowledgeable would look at this and see what they think, it would make the article easier to follow.--Paraballo (talk) 03:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. There is a general need to better introduce people in this article. --Dan Dassow (talk) 05:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Nephew?

If both Gordon and Sanford had the same mother, then Sanford would be Gordon's half-brother, not his nephew, though Gordon didn't find that out till later, apparently. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 20:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

As of 2008-11-12, the article contains the following text:

Only after Hutchens admitted he was not Christine Collins' son, ten days later, was she released.[21] This aspect of the case is depicted in the 2008 film Changeling.

However, I've just seen the movie, and believe the last sentence show read that this aspect of the case is NOT depicted in the movie. In the movie, Hutchens does not confess until the very end; long after Collins is released from the institution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.46.215.210 (talk) 14:45, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy Regarding Movie Comments

As of 2008-11-12, the article contains the following text:

Only after Hutchens admitted he was not Christine Collins' son, ten days later, was she released.[21] This aspect of the case is depicted in the 2008 film Changeling.

However, I've just seen the movie, and believe the last sentence show read that this aspect of the case is NOT depicted in the movie. In the movie, Hutchens does not confess until the very end; long after Collins is released from the institution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.46.215.210 (talk) 14:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Hutchens versus Hutchins

Various sources have given Arthur Hutchins, Jr. last name as Hutchens. Arthur's daughter, Carol Hutchins, has definitely given the last name as Hutchins in this article.

Jones, Oliver (2008-11-14). "Inside Story: How a Boy Became the Changeling Impostor". People (magazine). Retrieved 2008-11-15. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

This article provides information on what happened to Arthur Hutchins.

--Dan Dassow (talk) 04:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The murders section

This section is quite disjointed and borders on nonsensical. Some clarity on exactly where events take place would be appreciated, and an explanation of how we move from Canada to California would be especially relevant. tanankyo (talk) 03:25, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2blackcats.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/sanford-clark.jpg&imgrefurl=http://2blackcats.wordpress.com/2008/10/&usg=__OWo79mh_7kqCfewNOiyCc9jbPFI=&h=400&w=308&sz=24&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=PCyH4Mc4oZbcYM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSanford%2BClark%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

I found this site because i was curious what the real life people looked like after seeing the movie. It has more pictures of Gordon, Sanford and his mom/grandmother. It also has pictures of the Christine Collins and her son Walter along with a photo of the imposter boy. I don't know how to add pictures or i would do it myself. Hopefully someone would like to! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stryker1026 (talk • contribs)

The article that User:CliffC references states: "All photos and captions were taken directly from the Los Angeles Public Library Archives, and are primary-source material; they are digital scans of actual evidence used in the real Northcott case in 1928."

These are copyrighted pictures that require a license fee for use. The original source is already noted in Wineville_Chicken_Coop_Murders#External_links.

• Los Angeles Public Library LAPL Photo Collection Keyword northcott This is a collection of 121 photographs associated with the case.

--Dan Dassow (talk) 06:28, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The unsigned message above was from User:Stryker1026, not me, I have now applied the {{unsigned}} template to it. I am aware of copyright policy. I'm guessing you saw my id from when I reverted someone's change of "hanged" to "hung" here recently. Cheers, CliffC (talk) 13:54, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

CliffC, thank you for letting me know that I mistakenly attributed this comment to you. --Dan Dassow (talk) 13:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Confusing film with actual events

There has been a tendency for people to add information from Changeling (film). Although Changeling (film) is generally factual, it is not a documentary nor is it a citable source for a Wikipedia article. People have also added information without citing the source for the information. A large number of edits do not state the purpose of the edit. Citations are also being removed without stating a rationale for removing them. A number of edits have also corrupted citations. Finally, this article is frequently being vandalized. --Dan Dassow (talk) 16:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Walter Collins (did he survive)

Hi i was very moved by this story,but am confused on one thing and was wondering if anyone could help me out....

I thought i read at the end of the movie that Walter Collins was alive and that he had changed his name..Is this true?

Mum.of.six (talk) 01:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This is the text that is shown at the end of the Changeling:

"Following the hearings, Captain Jones was suspended, Chief Davis was demoted and Mayor Cryer chose not to run for re-election. For the rest of his life, Reverend Briegleb used his radio show to expose police misconduct and political corruption. To shake free of the scandal, the community of Wineville, California changed its name to Mira Loma. Christine Collins never stopped searching for her son."

Gordon Stewart Northcott killed Walter Collins with the help of his mother, Sarah Louise Northcott, and his nephew, Sanford Clark.

--Dan Dassow (talk) 07:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

It is said somewhere that Walter Collins was tied to a bed and tortured for a week before being killed by Northcott, his mother and the nephew boy. 86.154.115.231 (talk) 14:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

George Cyrus Northcott under Popular Culture

There is a sentence referencing George Cyrus Northcott being discussed "above" and being one of two characters left out of the film, but there is no prior reference to him in the article. Was he Gordon's father?

"The film depicts all the major figures above, save two, Sarah Louise Northcott and George Cyrus Northcott."

Cculhane (talk) 04:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

In a previous version of this article, George Cyrus Northcott had been identified as Gordon Stewart Northcott's father. I restored this information. --Dan Dassow (talk) 06:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Sanford Clark

I have added some information about what happened to Sanford Clark, but am not wiki-skilled enough with tags to add the references. If someone could do that, it'd be great. The information came from the CBC News and the Regina Leader Post:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2008/05/19/sask-film.html

and

http://www2.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/arts_life/story.html?id=4c8e3236-1a4f-4d78-a331-ffec10e8f905&p=2

Thank you. I will add the citation when I get a chance. I've intended to reference these articles, but misplaced the link to them. --Dan Dassow (talk) 03:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I added these citations and included additional information from the Leader-Post. --Dan Dassow (talk) 10:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)