Talk:Members Church of God International

There seem to be two organizations called Church of God International. One being the Philippine one (which you seem to be familiar with), and another one being an unrelated splinter group of the Worldwide Church of God. Both should be mentioned in the article, as both exist. We also could make the page a disambiguity page (see Barrel for an example). But both should be mentioned. -- Chris 73 Talk 13:51, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

I have made Church of God International a disambig page, listing both Church of God International (Philippines) and Church of God International (USA). -- Chris 73 Talk 23:54, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Remove Critical Facts

There seems to be an anonymus IP address that has been indirectly starting and edit war with me, maybe we could end this indirect conflict by removing cult critisims, especially in the first paragraph of the page. Dar book (talk) 11:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

It is not an "edit war". As a member of the organization (he has admitted such to Wiki members) Dar Book has a history of removing germaine, encycolpedic content that is construed negatively by the group. Do a check of his edits and you will see that his additions are often propaganda, and his removals are always facts that reflect poorly on the organization. Hence his desire to remove content (in the above statement) that has been accepted for many months. The statement regarding the status of the group in the larger Christian community is very relevant ESPECIALLY when discussing (as we are) possible confusion between this group and others. The statement becomes therefore more significant, not less. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.173.20.21 (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC) ]]

I checked his edits, and he just tries to remove facts that "less-propagates" the church, yet he only admitted that he is an outcast advocator (he said it to 50%Quick). Yet, why are we all against him. I saw an exxagerated fact that he didn't make. So why is everybody against him? A fact in this article is clearly wrong yet you say Mr.99.173.20.21 that he is only adding propaganda. Hence, his desire may me biased but is right. Defenz 07 (talk) 07:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

You checked his edits? You and Dar book are the same person as established by CheckUser. But I wouldn't be surprised... no honest, upright and moral man would join a religious organization being led by a fugitive criminal. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:16). I have told you before, if devotion to your leader drives you to commit evil then perhaps it is time to think twice about your religion. – Shannon Rose (talk) 21:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I admit it, Defenz_07 is my alternate account or a sockpuppet in your terms. I thought that your kind, but this waryness you have showed me before has already turned to hostility. You have reverted all postive edits done by other users thinking its propaganda. Why are so NEGATIVE about this article and all its related articles? I won't do anything to this article for a while, as you want it to be (in exchange for your kindness you gave me). Just wanting to know on what christian denomination do you belong. Your beliefs about this church are negative, and I belive that that is the reason why have reverted all postive edits done by other users even if it has references. I was touched by the verse you said, but if you were a Roman Citizen during the ancient times you would have also treated Jesus as a fugitive criminal leader. I already expected enemies. "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Mark 13:13, KJV). Well, I'll be dormant about this article (and about this edit war); goodbye. Dar book (talk) 07:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not wishing to be involve in this discussion but I just couldn't leave this alone. Whether intentionally or not, you Dar book comparing Soriano to the Lord Jesus' is at the very least, at the very least, blasphemous. The Lord Jesus was persecuted not because of any crime of the flesh for He was without sin, but because of his teachings. Any preacher who allows themselves to be compare to the Lord should be ashamed of themselves. Conrad940 (talk) 22:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Dar Book admitted to another Wiki user that he was a member of this church on this very page. Defenz - there is a difference between (as you put it) being an "outcast advocator", and as Dar Book said, that he was an "outspoken advocate". Your last sentence also indicates that you are not grasping the purpose of an encyclopedic site. Bias may be correct or incorrect (e.g. Abraham Lincoln was the greatest president of the U.S.), but it is not appropriate encyclopedic content. No one is "against" Dar Book. Intelligent people however are able to recognize the difference between "facts" and propaganda, and almost all of Dar Book's entries serve more to proseletyze than to inform. He has also removed encyclopedic content related to Eli Soriano's legal issues, and has added unverifiable information, POV, and trivial information that serves no other purpose but to defend the leader of this group. One notable example relates to Eli Soriano not making particular comments himself. As the unquestioned leader of the group, and as the one who controls all facets of the doctrine of the church, it is ridiculous to say that the beliefs of the group do not reflect his own, simply because an underling made the comments regarding his infallibility. Especially since he has never repudiated what was said on his behalf. I would ask you "Defenz", in the spirit of full disclosure, whether you would be willing to disclose whether you yourself are affiliated with this organization. 99.173.20.21 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.173.20.21 (talk) 21:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Iglesia ni YHWH at ni YHWSA HMSYH

The name Iglesia ni YHWH at ni YHWSA HMSYH was deleted from the Tagalog version of the article. Does this mean that it’s not actually the church’s real name?

What're the English translations for the words 'YHWH' and 'YHWSA HMSYH'? And from what language did it come from? Just asking... Ü Zxyggrhyn 10:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Contrary to NPOV Policy

This page clearly does not satisfy the Wikipedia NPOV policy. It is too laudatory of Eli Soriano and treats as accepted fact a number of things which are more religious creed than neutral, proven fact or accepted theory. For example, the statement "Soriano, who showed UNDENIABLE MASTERY of the Bible and SINCERE AFFECTION to the congregants, is [sic: was] being groomed by the old Perez to be his successor when he [sic: Perez] passed away." [emphasis added]. Jkaki00 13:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Reworded it. I agree, there is lots of POV on this article, I occasionally roll back some too extreme POV. Feel free to change it if you like -- Chris 73 | Talk 14:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

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Possible contradiction?

Under subheading "Teachings about the Church" are these two items:

• Salvation can only be attained by following all the laws of Christ in the New Testament including joining the Members Church of God International.
• A person may be saved even though he has not heard of the Gospel. He will be judged by God according to his conscience.

Only the latter has a source. Should the former be removed? 12.42.238.243 00:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not a contradiction, a person may be saved even though he has not heard of the Gospel.. It means that:

• for those who had heard the Members Church of God International, there is no excuse for you not to join it.
• for those whom have not heard the Members Church of God International and had passed away, God will judge him according to his conscience.

Dar book (talk) 02:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

So a person may be saved if (a) she follows "all the laws of Christ in the New Testament including joining the Members Church of God International", or if (b) she "has not heard of the Gospel" and is subsequently saved after judgment. Would you please explain how the existence of a second option does not conflict with the assertion that salvation can only be attained by the former? I will leave the statements unmodified for now, but one or both will need to be changed. Thanks. 12.42.238.243 (talk) 03:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Not all those who haven't heard of the gospel will be saved. God will judge him according to his consience and if the person was evil (e.g. a murderer) he will not be saved since he did not change his ways. Dar book (talk) 11:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Members Church of God International or Members of the Church of God International

Should this alternate title be used "Members of the Church of God International", I saw the second name at The UNTV Website. The second name could be used in the article. Dar book (talk) 08:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles should use reliable, third-party, published sources

Please be watchful of members of this religious cult manipulating the facts and using personal blogs and Internet discussion groups such as journeyist.blogspot.com/, robertbobclarita.newsvine.com, janeabao.newsvine.com etc. as sources. When you see such edits restore the article to the most recent NPOV version and warn the user straightaway. Obvious propagandists should be reported at WP:COI/N for immediate ban. - Shannon Rose (talk) 19:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Yah, thats the reason why I'll stop editing this article for a while, I don't want confilct with other users, especially with you Shannon Rose. I don't want this conflict to spread. But to ask you, Shannon Rose what is your religion? Defenz_07 and I saw what your wrote above. Since you know the gossip about our leader, what Christian denomination do you belong? Dar book (talk) 08:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

That's not a question you should be asking. Shannon Rose, you do not have to answer it unless you want to. I am quite convinced that religion is not Shannon's motivation here. Even I've heard of this chap, and I'm not Christian or Filipino. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 12:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposed work group

There is currently discussion regarding the creation of a work group specifically to deal with articles dealing with this subject, among others, here. Any parties interested in working in such a group are welcome to indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 17:36, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think a work group is a good idea. First, most of the members who edit this article (to admit it) add unbelievable facts about the statistics of the church. Also, most of the members and to those who know about the chuch are always accused of whitewashing this article. Second, if the "POV editors" keep trying to add black propaganda to this article. Then, the quality of this article may never improve. I'm very sorry. Dar book (Complains?) 02:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)