Talk:Bagram Airfield

2007 bombing not the only action

Just wondering why only the 2007 bombing is noted and no other mention of other combat action; while I was there as a U.S. Soldier, we were rocketed, mortared, land mine explosions, small arms firefights, etc. The mention of only the 2007 bombing seems to imply that there was nothing else that happened there and that would be totally incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.0.194 (talk) 09:36, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Just an example, there were 4 mortar rounds that hit Bagram, one hit the internment facility, a suicide bomber and an IED in one day in 2/2009 (I have to double check the date) but it, like many other incidents, never was reported in the mainstream media- found that info on a youtube.com search of a report from the pentagon news agency. Kind of think it is odd how such action goes mostly unreported but nearly everything that happens in Iraq is reported on the front page.

Spelling

Is is Air Base or Airbase? The article gives both.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.15.102.65 (talk) 07:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

Plagarism

The bit about Disney Drive is stolen word for word from Global Secuity, linked at the bottom and has therefore been deleted. And i've just noticed most of the history of the base has been stolen from there as well! 62.25.109.195 13:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Soviet last stand?? - can we have some sources, never heard of this battle..

Air Base or Air Field?

The base is run by the Army which would make it an Air Field> see http://www.bagram.afnews.af.mil/

Both are ok, but "Air Field" usually refers to a public airport with a small sized runway and a small building used as its terminal or waiting lounge. "Air Base" refers to an unauthorized militarized premises that contains large number of troops living there, with barracks, storage facilities, hangers, airport runway, mined fence, etc. The public are not allowed in Bagram so it's considered Air Base, an Airport and a Military Base.--PH4crew (talk) 23:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Not in this case. Army airfields are called such (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_airfields). --DonSmithnotTMD —Preceding comment was added at 12:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thw white house uses bagram air base instead of an airfield, http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/afghanistan/photoessays/2006/index.html the airfield is inside the base so it's wise to use the main title as bagram air base and airfield may also be added. it's probably obvious to you that both names are used by the military stationed there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by McTools (talk • contribs) 21:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The difference between "Air Base" and "Airfield" is a mostly esoteric bit of language minutae that's very military specific. Very explicitly, "Air Base" means "Air Force Installation" ... whereas "Airfield" denotes Army (ie: Hunter Army Airfield at Fort Stewart, GA) ... the constant repition of "Air Base" is a subtle bit of propaganda by the Air Force to try to imply that they are in charge of the base and they're making things happen in Afghanistan -- they're not. If you google it, you'll notice that most Army websites refer to it as "Airfield" and most Air Force websites refer to it as "Air Base". It's not an Air Base, the Air Force is not in charge here.

Bagram Air Base is the commonly used term. Kingturtle (talk) 14:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Be that as it may, it is the incorrect nomenclature. It's like the word "ain't" ... just because it's a widely used part of speech does not make it right. CJTF-82 is the current command in that region of Afghanistan, led by a Two-Star general. www.CJTF82.com refers to the location as "Bagram Airfield" ... the 445th Expeditionary Wing, the largest USAF presence on-post, refers to it (cleverly) as Air Base. Their commander is a One-Star General. And to address an earlier point, there isn't a seperate "Airfield" within the "Air Base" ... it's an either / or proposition, and it's flatly not an Air Force installation. They do not have the ranking general ... they do not run the base ops ... they do not run or man the guard towers ... it does not belong to them, they are tenants. The fixed-wing terminal, when you arrive on-post, says Bagram Airfield. Do you want me to go down and get a picture of it tomorrow? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.25.10 (talk) 14:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Both AIR BASE and AIRFIELD are mentioned so there's no reason to continue this name dispute. Bagram airfield may be well recognized within the army over there, but air base sounds more meaninful because it's usa's main base for its air force. Bagram is mainly used for military planes, so it's air base. Like the person at the top stated, airfield usually refers to small public airports and air base refers to military controlled airport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by McTools (talk • contribs) 15:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

They are both mentioned, but Air Base is flat-out factually WRONG. It is not the proper nomenclature. I'm glad that it sounds more "meaninful". I'm glad that the factually correct naming convention will not be used in lieu of what a bunch of civilians thinks sounds neato. I guess how WikiPedia is criticized -- for being incorrect, mob rule, etc. -- is true. Good job! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.25.10 (talk) 08:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I recently returned from a tour with the Air Force (455 AEW) at Bagram Airfield. It's an Airfield - not an airbase. The official 455 AEW letterhead said "Bagram Airfield." It is true that some people at the wing staff wanted to get people to start calling it "airbase." However, that was never an official change. They even changed their web site to state Bagram Air Base. This, however, was an unofficial change. The official HQ Air Force web site (Air Force Link) still shows it as "Bagram Airfield." http://www.af.mil/sites/ The Army "owns" the base. Therefore, it's an "AIRFIELD." My job required me to send reports regularly to various AF organizations. If I'd changed the name of the installation in the reports, I would have had to enclose a copy of the official change authority - which would have been a Dept of the Army order. I didn't have such a thing and therefore all my reports went in with Bagram Airfield as the official location of the wing. There are Marines at Bagram. But Marines don't own Bagram. If Marines owned Bagram it would be designated "Marine Corps Air Station Bagram." But Marines don't own Bagram. There are sailors there. But the Navy doesn't own Bagram. If the Navy owned Bagram it would be designated "Naval Air Station Bagram." But the Navy doesn't own Bagram. There are airmen there. But the Air Force doesn't own Bagram. If the Air Force owned Bagram it would be designated Bagram Air Base. But the Air Force doesn't own Bagram. There are Royal Air Force people there. But the Royal Air Force doesn't own Bagram. If the Royal Air Force owned Bagram it would be designated Royal Air Force Bagram. But the Royal Air Force doesn't own Bagram. This can go on and on with the different nationalities and services at Bagram. But, the U.S. Army "owns" Bagram. Since the army owns Bagram, Army installation naming conventions require it be designated Bagram Airfield. Air Base is absolutely incorrect. The name of an installation has nothing to do with how built up it is or common usage or any other such thing - the name depends upon what service "owns" that installation and that services installation naming conventions.137.9.121.122 (talk) 18:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's try this again -- go to http://cjtf-a.com. This is the homepage of CJTF-101, who are currently in charge of Bagram. What do they refer to it as? Base or Field? Who's the commander? MG Schlosser. His letterhead says AIRFIELD. No one from the USAF outranks him. When you get off the plane at Bagram, the terminal says BAGRAM AIRFIELD. The acronym for Bagram is BAF. Everyone refers to it as BAF, and no, that's not for Bagram, Afghanistan. This is a weak attempt by the weakest service branch in the US military to try and take credit for more than their due. Sorry, but saying "base" doesn't make the USAF NOT a joke or in charge here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.24.91 (talk) 15:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I spent a good deal of time at BAF. It's Bagram Airfield and everyone there knows it as such. meinsla ^talk 06:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

-It is Bagram Air Field (aka BAF). Current commanders here, both Army and AF, refer to it as BAF, troops all say BAF, letterheads for USAF docs say BAF, and I would know, being that I'm writing this from one of the B-Huts on BAF. File name / Article name should be adjusted to reflect this. 58.147.139.164 (talk) 23:00, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Please explain more fully...

Please explain more fully the reasoning behing removing this reference. Excising wikipedian called it "unsuitable". I hope they will show the courtesy to explain why they call it unsuitable. Geo Swan 04:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Reasons:

• It is a primary source. Wikipedia's policy is to use secondary sources wherever possible.
• This particular primary source is incomprehensible. It consists of 240 pages of transcripts. I cannot have any confidence that it can serve to source anything, unless it is a very specific claim like "Person X said this during interrogation".
• The link also seems to have gone dead recently. But even if you find an updated link, the above two problems still apply.

Please note that I can see some cases where you could, if other sources were unavailable, use this document as a source. However, considering that there are 240 pages of material, please use it very sparingly, and then refer to at least a specific page number and preferably a paragraph number as well. Otherwise, it becomes impossible to verify a citation.Kevinp2 19:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Captives "reasonably well treated"?

I am skeptical that the assertion in this edit that the captives were "reasonably well treated" can be documented. Citation please? Geo Swan 04:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I added the citation, which was the same NYT article. If you do a word search for "reasonably well treated" you will find the exact paragraph. Kevinp2 19:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Bagram theater internment facility - Merge?

Someone created a new article focusing on the Bagram Theater Internment Facility - the detention facility at the air base. I suggest that the articles be combined, since they deal with the same facility. Thoughts? Michael134.84.96.142 22:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

What possible advantage do you imagine this would provide? One is a prison. The other is an airport. Other than that they are colocated, and both are run by the DoD, what do they have in common?

Both article link to one another, so readers of one can find the other. Geo Swan 19:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support a move. JPG-GR (talk) 16:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Note:This move discussion also affects the article 2007 Bagram Air Base bombing MickMacNee (talk) 12:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
This page needs to move from Bagram Air Base to Bagram Airfield. I attempted to move it myself, but Bagram Airfield is already occupied by a redirect page. Look above, there's multiple strong reasons why it should be named Airfield -- you know, like THAT'S WHAT ITS NAME IS -- and multiple poor reasons why -- such as it gets more google hits, or that's what's more commonly used, etc. Bottom line -- the name of the base is BAGRAM AIRFIELD. This page can be correct or it can perpetuate a common mistake. Just because people say "ain't" doesn't make it a proper word. Just because people thought the world was flat didn't make it right. Alexif (talk) 11:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia article titles do not have to be the 'proper' name, the common name is used in many articles where justified. MickMacNee (talk) 12:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Articles are named by most common usage. That is why the article Cat Stevens is not called Yusuf Islam (which is his actual name) and why the article Rhode Island is not called State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations (which is the State's official name). Read Wikipedia:Naming conventions for more information. Kingturtle (talk) 12:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Opppose-from previous discussions, the motivation for the move appears to be a pissing contest between the different factions of the US Military, which are frankly not an issue for Wikipedia. Common usage appears to have been demonstrated, and as above using a common name is backed by policies. Personally I identify with the argument that 'airfield' has civilivian use connotations, or gives the mental image of a small shack next to a grass runway, as opposed to a proper base, where all sorts of operations occur, as described in the article, and will only be more true with the ongoing development of the site, but I accept this all may be a case of Brit/American English, but the main argument is policy and common usage. MickMacNee (talk) 13:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested Move, take two.

I am proposing that this article be moved from Bagram Air Base to Bagram Air Field.

One thing that should be noted, while the previous request to move this page from Bagram Air Base to Bagram Air Field was opposed on account that it appeared to be a "pissing contest between the different factions of the US Military, which are frankly not an issue for Wikipedia", I would like to state that I am currently AD USAF, there is a clear distinction in how bases are classified, and this is very much an issue for Wikipedia.

First off, let us review some common abbreviations associated with military installations that primarily support aviation operations, as viewed from a military perspective. AFB (Air Force Base) denotes a permanent USAF CONUS innstallation. AB (Air Base) denotes a primarily USAF OCONUS installation (examples include Ali Al Salem AB, Kuwait, Ramstein AB, Germany). AF (Air Field) denotes a primarily Army run installation focused on providing Army specific air operations, generally revolving around rotary-wing aircraft (helicopters) or small fixed-wing aircraft. NAS (Naval Air Station) denotes a primarily Navy operated installation with an aviation focus. It should be noted that military installations often contain tenant units that may be from another service branch, based upon specific mission requirements.

Now, while anyone who has ever been to BAF would agree that the USAF operates the bulk of Air Traffic in/out of BAF, it should be stressed that this is an Army Air Field, under Army command, directly supporting Army operations in theater. The USAF is simply a tenant unit utilizing this Air Field for it's strategic location in the theater. The US Navy also utilizes BAF for the same reason as the USAF. And yes, while I realize that the official website for USAF operations on Bagram (http://www.bagram.afcent.af.mil/) refers to it as Bagram Air Base in page title and on the header art, it should be noted that all other references to the location are listed as Bagram Air Field. A quick glance through the text on the home page will make this clear. All Public Affairs news releases say BAGRAM AIR FIELD as well. And for those who will wish to dispute my argument based upon the title in the html coding and the header art, please keep in mind, seeing as how we're having this discussion right now, how easy it is to think AB instead of AF, given the number of USAF installations that have been set up within the past 6 years in support of OEF or OIF.

Reading through the previous comments here it is clear to me that there are two distinct viewpoints on this issue - one from a civilian viewpoint that does not understand the distinctions (and, I'm almost willing to bet has a very limited knowledge of aviation history, specifically military aviation), and then there is the military viewpoint, mostly from personnel such as myself who have been / are currently deployed to Bagram Air Field in support of OEF, be it under the 455th AEW, 755th AEW, or one of the CJTF-101 Army units.

With that being said, I propose that the article be moved to Bagram Air Field. The "common usage" argument does not hold up here. There is clearly enough support, as shown by the comments in the "Air Base or Air Field?" section for this to happen. No matter how trivial an issue may seem, every effort should be taken to ensure every article/subject is 100% accurate. Comnavchaos (talk) 01:03, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose per previous and recommend speedy close. No new arguments here. MickMacNee (talk) 01:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

• • Sorry, but I for one am going to push for this to stay open to allow people to reply. You are also going to need to bring up a much more convincing argument to null this request now and in the future, if that is your intent. To date, I've counted 5 opposing this change, saying for it to remain Air Base, and 7 (including myself) pushing for a change to Air Field. The 7 people pushing for the change have also cited various official sources, ranging from personal on-site experience due to deployments to Bagram Air Field, CJTF-82 and CJTF-101 websites, USAF Public Affairs news articles, official letterheads from units on base, and so on. I will flat out go a step further and say that opposing this borders on sheer laziness.Comnavchaos (talk) 14:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

• • • I don't need to bring up anything new when you have not presented any new facts. First, this is not a vote, and second, the validity of your sources has been addressed, they are irrelevant per all the practices and norms of wikipedia. If you want to then insult people for correctly applying these, then good luck to you, I am sure it will further your cause immensly. MickMacNee (talk) 16:12, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

• Support We have the ability to do a redirect from "Bagram Air Base" to "Bagram Airfield," so nobody who types in "air base" during a search is going to have trouble finding the article. The question is: is Wikipedia going to actually put correct information in its articles, or are we going to prove the detractors right by including flat-out wrong information because it's "popular?" If we're going to insist that it be wrong then all of Wikipedia needs to dump the "This article needs expert attention" infobox into the trash, because a range of people from several Services (I see both Army and Air Force) who are about as expert as you are going to find on this subject are telling you that it's wrong. If you can't even take expert opinion on something as trivial as the name of a place, then Wikipedia is nearly worthless for anything important.

And, I note that the same person who's insisting that the title has to stay as-is complains about edits to the article itself correcting the error in the title. We want the damn thing to be correct. We don't have the ability to fix the title, but we can fix the article. If you want them both to match, then fix the stupid title. CatCube (talk) 04:13, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

If you want them both to match, get the article renamed. This is how the Manual of Style works. And if you want the article renamed, then show that the world outside of the Army/Air Force cares enough about your inter-service issues to relfect it in sources. Factual accuracy with military terms is never going to be a Wikipedia priority so long as nobody outside the military realy cares or is adaquately informed enough to get it right. These are the facts of life, get used to it. MickMacNee (talk) 06:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

• • By that standard, the factual accuracy of anything isn't a concern to Wikipedia. Very few people know about the terminology used by areas outside their expertise. News sources are often horribly misinformed regarding terminology, and not just in the military context. Looking through the terminology used in stories regarding gun control, for example, I can find all kinds of incorrect terms used by reporters who only care that they meet their deadline. The average science story is usually horribly mangled by reporters who don't know math. I can dig up lots of sources saying that evolution is a myth, but despite the popularity of that view in some quarters--sometimes popular enough to garner legislative support--it's not correct. In this case, despite numbers of cites on Lexis-Nexis, or whatever other standard you want to dream up, the authoritative source is going to be www.cjtf-a.com, since they are the people who actually set the name of the installation.

As far as the snark in your comment is concerned, we are TRYING to get the article name changed, TRYING to get people adequately informed, but people who don't know any better are actively impeding our attempts, and insisting that their wrongness is the face presented to the world.-- CatCube (talk) 09:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. Wikipedia standard is to go with the more commonly used title. A google search provides this data: "Bagram Air Base" -wikipedia = 98,400; "Bagram Air Field" -wikipedia = 15,500. Kingturtle (talk) 16:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

• Again, as said before, the common practice standard does not enforce accuracy of this article. Let us take a second to revisit the project goals here as listed on the Military History WikiProject page. Please pay special attention to the first goal listed:

* To create the foremost reliable and accurate free-content encyclopedia of military history in the English language.

* To improve coverage of military history by creating, expanding, and maintaining articles that describe all of its aspects.

* To provide guidelines and recommendations for such articles, and to serve as the central point of discussion for issues related to military history in Wikipedia.

-MickMacNee, the argument that "Factual accuracy with military terms is never going to be a Wikipedia priority" is clearly in violation of stated goals.

-Kingturtle, please provide a solid reference that "Wikipedia standard is to go with the more commonly used title" is the official policy and stance of Wikipedia.

I am sorry, but obviously both of your arguments have been shot down by facts and solid, indisputable references here. With that being said, let us get back to the opinion of the subject matter experts who have made their points clearly known here. For reference, the definition of a "subject matter expert" in this case is "any person, either civilian or military, who has deployed to Bagram Air Field in support of CJTF-101, the 455th AEW, the 755th AEW, or any other military unit associated with the United States and its allies." All subject matter experts here have made it clearly known that the proper term is "Bagram Air Field."

I can further provide evidence that Air Field is the correct term in the form of USAF Special Order G-10322 issued by United States Air Forces Central (USAFCENT) awarding the MUA to the 455th AEW. The wording used in the citation is proof of this.

I have made my opinion on this topic well known, as by my first post in this section. Further more, I have provided legitimate and valid sources to back my opinion. And to top it off, not correcting the article title from "Bagram Air Base" to "Bagram Air Field" goes against the reliability and accuracy standards of Wikipedia. --Comnavchaos (talk) 20:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

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