User talk:Peter Damian: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 18:16, 1 July 2009

Peter Damian is unable to retire

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! It appears that you are attempting to destroy Wikipedia. Please be aware that editors are expected to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, and attempts at destroying the project will lead to blocks, bans and worse. Please stop your destruction attempts immediately. Use the sandbox for any test destruction you would like to perform, and read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Stock Stabbor (talk) 11:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note, user just created account. ceranthor 13:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked

No template man. Destroying Wikipedia is something you will simply have to do by any and all means outside of the scope you have been given as an editor. Sorry. Law_{type! snype?} 13:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh god, we're all gonna die. --Closedmouth (talk) 13:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since Peter was warned against destroying Wikipedia several hours ago, and since then I can see no efforts towards destroying Wikipeida, I think we have to AGF that he has taken the warning to heart.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:49, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think if Peter can give his word that he is no longer trying to intentionally disrupt Wikipedia(a reasonable standard) we should consider an unblock, however simply assuming it is the fact seems unrealistic(considering he outright reject a prior warning and blanked his page). Chillum 13:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can see no intentional disruption. I only see overreactions to strongly expressed criticism of Wikipedia. ~~This was a stupid block.~~ Hans Adler 14:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hans, posting these goals:

"

Demoralise the vandal fighters. Constantly vote against every RfA. Reduce the number of administrators to such a pitiful level that they will all give up.
Demoralise the content contributors so they leave. To an extent this is already happening. The problem here however is that most of the 'community' would welcome them leaving. Then they could concentrate on their job of fighting vandalism and keeping the encyclopedia eternally in the state it was in 2005.
Attack the source of funds. This would be very effective but difficult. Requirement: a few articles in respectable journals that showed properly how Wikipedia was distorting human knowledge. (To make up for that ridiculous and skewed 'Nature' article). Properly wzzrite up the stuff about pedophiles, zoophiles, pornographers, Objectivists. Publicise this widely. Talk with journalists.
Subtle vandalism. This makes me uncomfortable, however.
Form an alliance with the natural enemies of Wikipedia such as Britannica.
Get sponsorship from wealthy person or corporation who would pay editors to contribute."

"Wikipedia cannot be redeemed. It's not Arbcom, it's not 'Jimbo' it's not the system. It's that the majority of the 'community' are barking mad and are simply not normal people. They need to be hospitalised and cared for, and the place should be blown up and destroyed."

Certainly is disruptive. These are not criticisms, they are a list of bad things he is going to do. I think him giving his word that he is not going to disrupt our project is the very minimum needed for this user to be unblocked. Chillum 14:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks, I didn't see that 6-point list. I guess it was off-wiki and is taken out of context here, but it's certainly enough to make me think and strike out my last sentence above. Hans Adler 14:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the block message could have been more clear. Peter linked to these off-wiki comments at RfA as he began to enact the "Constantly vote against every RfA" part of his plan. Chillum 14:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Off wiki is off wiki. You cannot block someone for something he says somewhere else. You cannot block Chillum for something he says at the High Times message board, even about Wikipedia. You cannot block "Law" for something he says at the Cato Institute's picnic. We are not allowed to go combing through the world wide web, assuming that all account names are the same, that all identities are the same, that all comments can be attributed to the same individuals, and that the policies of Wikipedia constrain a person's actions anywhere else. This is utter nonsense. If Peter's comments were, in fact, off Wikipedia, I will unblock him this instant. Show me that they were on Wikipedia, and there's a discussion (they still look like exasperated recommendations rather than an agenda of action). Indefinite block, though? That's crazy in any case. Geogre (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just realised there was no link from here to -Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Community review of Law's block of Peter Damian - where the block is being (extensively) discussed. Davewild (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Can you promise not to intentionaly destroy wikipeda or engage in vandalism (subtle or otherwise)? Hipocrite (talk) 16:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine that he can, but is that much sufficient? I have enough faith in PD's good intentions to believe that he wouldn't set out to "destroy" the project, nor even to subtly vandalise it, but I have almost no faith remaining that he could refrain from being disruptive at a level that irritates and wastes the time of other contributors. He has made significant contributions to content, yet has also wasted the effort of others who could also have been contributing. Is his effect overall positive or negative? Is his contribution really worth the trouble? Andy Dingley (talk) 17:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this is the question we should really ask. But it's not what we normally do here. We usually go out of our way to give disruptive people who are too stupid to write an encyclopedia second, third and fourth chances if we think they mean well. If a disruptive editor pays with an occasional well-written article we should be more lenient, not less. Hans Adler 17:10, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We are unusually forgiving of deliberate vandals, but that's the root of our policy: we always forgive, but sometimes we take protective measures to safeguard the future. We would also forgive PD his past disruptions (For that's what it is Peter, it's not some clever attempt to improve things that we're all too stupid to understand, it's just the same egotistical posturing as the teenagers, only with better spelling.), but where does the project community's best interests lie? Tolerate, or carry on without? I'm certainly shifting from one to the other. Off-wiki activities are relevant too, because they're just as forgivable as on-wiki activities are, but equally they indicate a future risk. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, let me just get at that "clever" thing. As I gather it, Peter was voting to oppose at RFA. When badgered about why, he linked to an explanation at WR. The thing at WR said that Wikipedia is so corrupt that it can't go on as it is and that people need to vote to oppose automatically from now on.

Well, that's actually pretty law abiding. He opposed, as was his right. He didn't have to explain, but his opposition could be disregarded if it looked like a reflex (if only such supports were similarly challenged and similarly disregarded). He therefore provided the rationale. The rationale was incendiary, which is in keeping with WR.

So, we have "when at 4Chan do as 4Chan does" as one factor. When at WR, conform to its expectations. Filter that away, and what Peter said in the "manifesto" is gloomy but not terroristic. It's almost reasonable. If you grant his case, that the situation is so overloaded with self-promoting (literally, self promotion giving) people and unlicensable and unexaminable individuals who engage in cults of personality and log rolling, then the reasonable solution would be to make it stop. If other forms of getting remedy are impossible, an auto-no vote is as reasonable as anything else.

I saw someone recently argue that everyone should be an admin after a set amount of time and that you need a powerful reason to vote no. If that's actually the mentality of some, then those people need to be matched by at least an equal number citing Peter's position (if not his WR language).

So, is it really too clever? I don't know, but it sure isn't a bomb in the heart of the steerage section. It's a guy who thinks things are gone too far and who is still here and apparently still trying in good faith to do what he thinks is right. Utgard Loki (talk) 18:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked2

You have been blocked by me for a period of one minute. This is because, by linking to a Wikipedia Review manifesto, you gave wind to the sails of the unthinking, reflex-only, trollish people who have Wikipedia accounts. I hope that, after that minute is up, you may edit in good faith. If you believe that the project is untenable, then you will hardly be alone in this thought. Opposing the RFA candidates who get unthinking, bused in supports without having done a danged thing for the encyclopedia is reasonable, in my opinion, as RFA is not only broken, but the consequences of its being broken were visible with your block. The person who blocked you violated blocking policy numerous ways and, honestly, should face sanction over his or her act.

Then again, I've only been editing since 2003, so I probably don't know how Wikipedia really works. Geogre (talk) 20:13, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Geogre. Peter Damian (talk) 21:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since people will go ape

Durova came to my talk page to ask me to un-unblock this user. Unlike User:Law, who blocked without so much as even putting a template on the user's page, much less any effort at discussion, I will cross post my serious reply:

I'm afraid I cannot, and let me explain why my ground is solid, here:

It's my feeling that the AN/I discussion showed no consensus. A failure to have consensus in the case of long standing users defaults to unblock.
The block was procedurally improper. The admin would need to warn, seek to defuse, and then block if necessary.
The block was additionally improper in that there was no blocked template placed on the user.
The block was additionally improper in that it was on the basis of off-Wikipedia words. One cannot be blocked for something said on 4Chan. That Peter Damian linked to it was some justification, but all that it gives us is "this user is voting to oppose RFA's without a valid reason." The last time I checked, that's not reason to block someone.

This was, as you will see, a block of Peter Damian. I think he did something wrong. The administrator who blocked him was in conflict with him and went wildly overboard and made a complete hash of things. It won't stand. Geogre (talk) 20:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion

Hi Peter, we've interacted once or twice before (mainly over the FlyingToaster RfA) but don't really know each other. I did not think the recent block of you (now undone) was a good idea at all, though I also didn't think what you were doing at RfA was at all helpful. This has now escalated into some ridiculous nonsense at ANI (as you'll see if you haven't already) and it will undoubtedly only get worse. There are some legitimate concerns about your participation at WP:RFA (a place I don't much frequent because I don't care for what goes on there for the most part), and I'm wondering if this whole situation (at least on your end) can't be nipped in the bud if you just voluntarily announce that you won't participate at RfA or its talk page. It's kind of a weird part of the encyclopedia anyway, as I'm sure you'll agree, so I don't think you'd be missing much. Perhaps if you're willing to take this step, some of the current concerns will be allayed, and we can avoid escalating this to RfC or even ArbCom, which is not in anyone's best interests because drama is dumb. This is just a suggestion obviously and comes only from me, who is no one of any particular importance. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Peter Damian (talk) 21:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Message

I am away on business for a while. Thanks for the messages. Briefly, I see nothing wrong with talking to those who provide the funds that keep Wikipedia going, to persuade them that there are things that are seriously wrong. This episode is evidence of that. As I said before, it is no different to the way that a company is bought out and the existing management fired. Those who fund Wikipedia expect to see it managed well, and they are not seeing any of that, at the moment. We are trying to build a comprehensive and accurate reference source, as I have always said. I don't want to destroy Wikipedia, and I think Wikipedia is a Good Thing. Rest assured. But change is needed. Thanks Peter Damian (talk) 21:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's build a comprehensive reference work

And it is criminal that there is no page on Johann Andreas Streicher by the way. What are you all doing? Get to work. Peter Damian (talk) 21:49, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is a really strange coincidence. I was viewing random articles on the German wiki, came across a piano maker named Conrad Graf, created that article here... which led me to Streicher. I checked what linked to it and found your message. If it's criminal that the article didn't exist, I'm sure you can do much more with the article I created. You see, I have the occasional odd hobby of transferring articles across wikis despite being monolingual. :) Outriggr (talk) 07:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 43: / Line 43: @@
 :: I agree that this is the question we should really ask. But it's not what we normally do here. We usually go out of our way to give disruptive people who are too stupid to write an encyclopedia second, third and fourth chances if we think they mean well. If a disruptive editor pays with an occasional well-written article we should be more lenient, not less. [[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 17:10, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 ::: We are unusually forgiving of deliberate vandals, but that's the root of our policy: we ''always'' forgive, but sometimes we take protective measures to safeguard the future. We would also forgive PD his past disruptions (For that's what it is Peter, it's not some clever attempt to improve things that we're all too stupid to understand, it's just the same egotistical posturing as the teenagers, only with better spelling.), but where does the project community's best interests lie? Tolerate, or carry on without? I'm certainly shifting from one to the other. Off-wiki activities are relevant too, because they're just as forgivable as on-wiki activities are, but equally they indicate a future risk. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 20:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
+::Ok, let me just get at that "clever" thing.  As I gather it, Peter was voting to oppose at RFA.  When badgered about why, he linked to an explanation at WR.  The thing at WR said that Wikipedia is so corrupt that it can't go on as it is and that people need to vote to oppose automatically from now on.
+::Well, that's actually pretty law abiding.  He opposed, as was his right.  He didn't ''have to'' explain, but his opposition could be disregarded if it looked like a reflex (if only such '''supports''' were similarly challenged and similarly disregarded).  He therefore provided the rationale.  The rationale was incendiary, which is in keeping with WR.
+::So, we have "when at 4Chan do as 4Chan does" as one factor.  When at WR, conform to its expectations.  Filter ''that'' away, and what Peter said in the "manifesto" is gloomy but not terroristic.  It's almost reasonable.  If you grant his case, that the situation is so overloaded with self-promoting (literally, self promotion giving) people and unlicensable and unexaminable individuals who engage in cults of personality and log rolling, then the reasonable solution would be to ''make it stop.''  If other forms of getting remedy are impossible, an auto-no vote is as reasonable as anything else.
+::I saw someone recently argue that ''everyone should be an admin after a set amount of time'' and that ''you need a powerful reason to vote no.''  If that's actually the mentality of some, then those people need to be matched by at least an equal number citing Peter's position (if not his WR language).
+::So, is it really too clever?  I don't know, but it sure isn't a bomb in the heart of the steerage section.  It's a guy who thinks things are gone too far and who is ''still here'' and apparently still ''trying in good faith'' to do what he thinks is right.  [[User:Utgard Loki|Utgard Loki]] ([[User talk:Utgard Loki|talk]]) 18:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 == Blocked2 ==