Talk:Operation Barbarossa

Causes of initial Soviet defeats

"Much of Soviet planning assumed that no war would take place before 1942" - I don't believe in this, but let it be... - "thus the Axis attack came when new organizations and promising, but untested, weapons were just beginning to trickle into operational units."

Do about 1350 T-34 tanks in Red Army count as "beginning to trickle"? How can a tank which is in production and in service since 1940 "just begin to trickle" in June of 1941?

Do nearly 700 KV-1 tanks in Red Army count as "beginning to trickle"?

I bring these two tanks into discussion because *none* of German tanks could match them in firepower in June of 1941. They had long 75mm guns capable of taking out any German tank, whereas the most potent German tank, Pz-IV had only short 75mm gun, which could not take out any of them. And there were only about 800 of Pz-IV. The rest were even worse: Pz-III had 37mm guns, Pz-II had 20mm, er, "guns", and Pz-I are not tanks at all.

Do about 330 КV-2 tanks with enormous 152mm gun count as "beginning to trickle"? 90.176.40.79 (talk) 01:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Einsatzgruppen

Shouldn't there be a section in this article about the mobile killing squads that moved through conquered territories annihilating Jewish populations. After all it was a very significant stage in the development of the holocaust.

This is about the Operation Barbarossa and not the Holocaust. Colchicum (talk) 01:55, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Operation barbarossa and the holocaust go together hand in hand. It's what initiated the mass killings performed by the einsatzgruppen, it deserves a mention --Thanks, Hadseys 00:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

casualties are moronic

Why are the casualties given for soviets are 6 million, while for germans much less? IT just looks absolutely moronic. Take care of this please. Here is how you do this: Decide when Operation Barbarossa ended. When you do, calculate casualties for both sides up until that date. Otherwise the facts stated there now do not fit with what Wikipedia states about the total military losses of USSR during WW2. Also, why are we using some unreliable websites, when we have Krivosheev's data avaliable on the internet.--99.231.48.138 (talk) 08:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)Pavel Golikov.

Not casualties were 6 million but total losses. Although the ref 6 seems to be not too reliable (I would propose to remove it to avoid discrediting of Wikipedia), the very fact that majority of Soviet POWs (3 to 5 million) were captured by Axis during Barbarossa is well known and indisputable. With regards to casualties, the Krivosheev's numbers are quite trustworthy. To my opinion, it makes sense to check the number of WIA (this number seems unreferenced now) and to remove "at least" per WP:WEASEL. I also see nothing unusual in so dramatic difference between Axis and Soviet losses during Barbarossa: by the end of the war the situation was reverse, although the German were in defensive, whereas the Soviet were in offensive.
With regards to your ideas on "how you do this", it fits WP:OR criteria. The only things you can do are to introduce the numbers from the reliable sources that are explicitly attributed to Barbarossa, and to remove poorly sourced materials, weasel words or unsupported claims.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

600 year later/before

Currently the article reads "Mein Kampf stated that Germany's destiny was to turn 'to the East' as it did 'six hundred years later'". This doesn't make any sense. Isn't Hitler alluding here to the eastward German expansion during the Middle Ages? Shouldn't that quotation read 'six hundred years before'? Anyone who knows, please feel free to update the article. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 07:51, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

"Official" end-date

Did it end 5 December 1941 or 7 January 1942? There seems to be a conflict in the text about which to consider the official "end-date." I'm going to provisionally change the date in the infobox to agree with the "Final Phase" section...

Wikiscient 20:02, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

AFAIK, the end of Barbarossa coincides with the end of operation Typhoon, i.e. the cessation of the German offensive. So 5 December 1941 is correct.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Suvorov's "theory"

I reverted the recent change in the "Soviet offensive plan theory" for following reasons:

1. I looked though jstor.org and I found no positive review on Suvorov's "Ledokol". All reviewers agreed that evidentiary base is lacking and the author's speculations are not supported by the facts.
2. I introduced the western historians' opinion on the Suvorov's "Ledokol" into the article, however, all this criticism (with references) appeared to be removed. That is incorrect, especially, taking into account that the reviews were written by professional and reputable historians and published in peer-reviewed journals with international circulation, whereas Suvorov is not a professional historian, and his books never passed a peer-reviewing procedure.
3. As the reviews testify, the Suvorov's theory (although popular in some Eastern European countries) is not supported by historical community and, does not deserve detailed description on WP pages.
   --Paul Siebert (talk) 03:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

PS Please, do not revert my edits without providing a solid ground for your actions.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

• Sorry, but it is supported by many experts. Several supporting historians and sources has been already provided in the article. Please do not delete them. Fist of all, that is notable historian and author Edvard Radzinsky in his famous book about Stalin. There are many others a well. This is not a "Suvorov's theory" any more.Biophys (talk) 03:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Give me names of Western experts who support Suvorov. Provide at least one positive review on "Ledokol" in first class international historical journal. I provided many negative reviews, all of them are reputable. Radzinsky himself is not reputable, according to western historians: his own book was criticised by western scholars. Here is quotes from a review on his book about Stalin:

"In fact, Radzinsky's book is essentially a compilation of fact, opinion and gossip already in circulation for decades. Worse, when Radzinsky does deal with newer information, he tends to take credit for other scholars' discoveries. While the author occasionally acknowl- edges his sources, many passages are phrased to implicitly or explicitly credit Radzinsky with 'revelations' already published elsewhere in Russian-language sources including Izvestiya TsK, Istochnik, Istoricheskii arkhiv, Minuvshee, and a variety of newspapers. While Radzinsky probably made some use of publicly accessible state and party archives, his claims about enjoying extensive access to the Presidential Archive (APRF) are less credible, as the latter has remained tightly sealed since 1991.
Poetic licence might excuse Radzinsky's numerous misstatements, were he not claiming to be an accomplished researcher and historian. The author uncritically accepts myths promoted by the early Bolshevik regime, not only appearing unfamiliar with Yurii Druzhnikov's 1988 exposure of the Pavlik Morozov fable (p. 257) but repeating the Stalinist historical line about an uninvited 1918 Allied landing at Murmansk (p. 135).6 Radzinsky also seems unaware of the problematic nature of sources like A. Orlov (pp. 31-32, 341) and B. Nikolaevsky's 'Letter of an Old Bolshevik' (p. 359). The author's romanticised portrayal of social conditions in 1937 (pp. 386-388) seems reminiscent of Leon Feuchtwanger's notorious apologia."

"While Radzinsky's Stalin is not entirely without merit, it is eclipsed by a number of contentious new works which offer more studied challenges to prevailing views of Stalinism. These include 0. V. Khlevnyuk's Stalin i Ordzhonikidze: konflikty v Politbyuro v 30-e gody (Moscow, 1993); Lars Lih's detailed introduction to Stalin's Letters to Molotov, 1925-1936 (New Haven and London, 1995), pp. 1-66; Stephen Kotkin's Magnetic Mountain: Stalinism as a Civilization (Berkeley, Los Angeles, and London, 1995); and Robert W. Thurston's Life and Terror in Stalin's Russia, 1934-1941 (New Haven and London, 1996)."

(Taken from David Brandenberger. Reviewed work(s): Stalin: The First In-Depth Biography Based on Explosive New Documents from Russia's Secret Archives by Edvard Radzinsky ; H. T. Willetts Source: Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 49, No. 1 (Jan., 1997), pp. 176-179)

Sokolov is philologist. Who else?--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Here is a small sample of supporting sources :

• Dębski, Sławomir. Między Berlinem a Moskwą: Stosunki niemiecko-sowieckie 1939–1941. Warsaw: Polski Instytut Spraw Międzynarodowych, 2003 (ISBN 83-918046-2-3).
• Edwards, James B. Hitler: Stalin's Stooge. San Diego, CA: Aventine Press, 2004 (ISBN 978-1593301446, paperback).
• Hoffmann, Joachim. Stalin's War of Extermination. Capshaw, AL: Theses & Dissertations Press, 2001 (ISBN 0-9679856-8-4).
• Maser, Werner Der Wortbruch. Hitler, Stalin und der Zweite Weltkrieg. Olzog, München 1994. ISBN 3-7892-8260-X
• Maser, Werner Fälschung, Dichtung und Wahrheit über Hitler und Stalin, Olzog, München 2004. ISBN 3-7892-8134-4
• Pleshakov, Constantine. Stalin's Folly: The Tragic First Ten Days of World War Two on the Eastern Front. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2005 (ISBN 0-618-36701-2).
• Raack, R.C. "Did Stalin Plan a Drang Nach Westen?", World Affairs. Vol. 155, Issue 4. (Summer 1992), pp. 13–21.
• Raack, R.C. "Preventive Wars?" [Review Essay of Pietrow-Ennker, Bianka, ed. Präventivkrieg? Der deutsche Angriff auf die Sowjetunion. 3d ed. Frankfurt-am-Main: Fischer Taschenbuch Verlag, 2000. ISBN 3-596-14497-3; Mel'tiukhov, Mikhail. Upushchennyi shans Stalina: Sovetskii Soiuz i bor'ba za Evropu 1939–1941. Moscow: Veche, 2000. ISBN 5-7838-1196-3; Magenheimer, Heinz. Entscheidungskampf 1941: Sowjetische Kriegsvorbereitungen. Aufmarsch. Zusammenstoss. Bielefeld: Osning Verlag, 2000. ISBN 3-9806268-1-4] The Russian Review, 2004, Vol. 63, Issue 1, pp. 134–137.
• Raack, R.C. "Stalin's Role in the Coming of World War II: Opening the Closet Door on a Key Chapter of Recent History", World Affairs. Vol. 158, Issue 4, 1996, pp. 198–211.
• Raack, R.C. "Stalin's Role in the Coming of World War II: The International Debate Goes On", World Affairs. Vol. 159, Issue 2, 1996, pp. 47–54.
• Raack, R.C. Stalin's Drive to the West, 1938–1945: The Origins of the Cold War. Palo Alto, CA: Stanford University Press, 1995. (ISBN 0-8047-2415-6).
• Raack, R.C. "Stalin's Plans for World War Two Told by a High Comintern Source", The Historical Journal, Vol. 38, No. 4. (Dec., 1995), pp. 1031–1036.
• Raack, R.C. "[Review:] Unternehmen Barbarossa: Deutsche und Sowjetische Angriffspläne 1940/41 by Walter Post; Die sowjetische Besatzungsmacht und das politishe System der SBZ by Stefan Creuzberger", Slavic Review, Vol. 57, No. 1. (Sring, 1998), pp. 212–214.
• Raack, R.C. "Breakers on the Stalin Wave: Review Essay [of Murphy, David E. What Stalin Knew: The Enigma of Barbarossa. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2005 (ISBN 0-300-10780-3); Pleshakov, Constantine. Stalin’s Folly: The Tragic First Ten Days of World War II on the Eastern Front. Boston: Houghton-Mifflin Co., 2005 (ISBN 0-618-36701-2)]", The Russian Review, Vol. 65, No. 3. (2006), pp. 512–515.
• Topitsch, Ernst. Stalin's War: A Radical New Theory of the Origins of the Second World War. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 1987 (ISBN 0-312-00989-5).
• Weeks, Albert L. Stalin's Other War: Soviet Grand Strategy, 1939–1941. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield, 2002 (hardcover; ISBN 0-7425-2191-5); 2003 (paperback, ISBN 0-7425-2192-3).Biophys (talk) 04:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The list seems to be copy-pasted from the Viktor Suvorov article. Raak is questionable: he doesn't support Suvorov's fully. Hoffman, Maser etc were criticized by Teddy J. Uldricks, and they are not too reputable historians. The only serious scholar who support Suvorov is Weeks. Not too much.
--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

• Please stay on the topic. This article is about "Operation Barbarossa", not about Razinsky and Suvorov. Of course, one could create a separate article about the "Soviet offensive plans" and debate it there. I provided a number of supporting WP:RS about "Soviet offensive plans" by your request.Biophys (talk) 04:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I provided a larger number of sources telling the reverse. You deleted them, whereas I deleted almost no your sources.
--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Suvorov and Raack

I didn't look through all Raack's articles, however, it is unclear from what I read that he supports Suvorov. Here is a quote from the Raak's article (Author(s): R. C. Raack Reviewed work(s):Was the USSR Planning to Attack Germany in 1941? by Joseph Bradley Source: Central European History, Vol. 32, No. 4 (1999), pp. 491-493):

"John Zametica, reviewing Suvorov's book in the London Spectator, the only major English-language journal of opinion to have reviewed it, noted that if Suvorov were right, many academic historians were going to be obliged to reconsider much of what they had written on the history of the war. Few in the West have done that so far. In fact, Suvorov's book, although published by Viking in North America, went almost unnoticed over here. When reviewed, it was studiously condemned."

In the rest of his article, Raack remains neutral, just describing what Suvorov and other authors say.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Another source, Raack, R.C. "[Review:] Unternehmen Barbarossa: Deutsche und Sowjetische Angriffspläne 1940/41 by Walter Post; Die sowjetische Besatzungsmacht und das politishe System der SBZ by Stefan Creuzberger", Slavic Review, Vol. 57, No. 1. (Sring, 1998), pp. 212–214. tells literally the following:

"Indeed, one searches in vain in North America for a broad discussion of the issues of Soviet war planning associated above all with the best selling - in Europe - but controversial writings by Viktor Suvorov"

I don't think this demonstrate Raack's support of Suvorov. I will delete this article from the list of publications supporting Suvorov's theses.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

@Paul: we should make a distinction between 'Soviet offensive plans theory' and Suvorov's theory of a German pre-emptive strike. Whereas the latter has indeed very little academic support, the former is a hotly debated matter and has quite a number of supporters, as evident from the list of authors Biophys provided. In fact, Mikhail Melt(y)ukhov is a semi-official historian by now, sometimes appearing on Russia Today, so whether you agree with his points or not, he has relevance. Similarly, Sokolov - a dissident rather than pro-Kremlin - is quite an acceptable author (his sketches on Soviet leaders are well written and balanced (I've read the translations into Estonian)). --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 12:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the list provided by Biophys to be persuasive, because (i) not many names are there; (ii) except Weeks (and Raack, who doesn't seem to support Suvorov fully) all of them are not too reputable historians (their books have been criticized along with Suvorov). The idea of cherry-peeking Russian historians' works (to take seriously some of them and to ignore others claiming that it is a Communist propaganda) seems not to be good. Sokolov is more a dissident (and philologist) rather than a historian.
Moreover, according to WP policy "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science." All sources used by me are "academic and peer-reviewed publications", so they are highly valuable (by contrast to the Suvorov's book that didn't pass a peer-reviewing procedure and got mostly negative reviews in the academic journals). According to WP policy "English-language sources are preferable to sources in other languages so that readers can easily verify the content of the article." Therefore, your arguments are completely wrong. I reverted your edit (not supported by a consensus).
--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Leaving Suvorov beyond the scope, let me point out that the Soviet offensive plans theory is a well known concept since late 1939s. The phrase "maloy kroviiu, na chuzhoy territorii" was frequently used by Soviet officials even before June 22, 1941. The idea that any the enemy's attack would be followed by a powerful RKKA's counter-attack was official even before the war. This has been described in the previous section, so I agree with DMorpheus to remove the section completely.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with outright removal. If it is a POV, albeit a minority POV, it deserves a mention. Some titles actually have been published in English during recent years, that include the arguments of the offensive plans 'faction' - e.g. Ziemke, Earl F. The Red Army, 1918–1941 and the title by Pleshakov, which I think has been mentioned above. Also, Joachim Hoffmann belongs here well, since he was for some decades even a director of the Bundeswehr Military History Research Office, proof enough of relevance. Secondly, as for maloy kroviiu, na chuzhoy territorii, this was indeed the official doctrine, which in effect, surely didn't mean the Red Army was always going to wait for the enemy attack and then repel it. Btw, Paul definitely is aware of the fact that war plans against Finland assumed an imperialist aggression by that Nordic country, to be followed by Soviet counter-attack ;-) --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 14:00, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

What outright removal do you mean? I removed almost nothing, I just added a number of reputable historians' opinions to create a more correct picture, because the section in its previous form presented a speculation based theory developed by amateur historian as a serious concept accepted by the historians' community. In addition, the section simply repeats some facts form the previous section, e.g. the Stalin speech (presented as something new here) has been cited in the second para of the "Soviet preparation" section. I got an impression that the person who wrote the previous version of this section didn't read the article itself.
With regards to Hoffmann, I don't think his position to warrant a neutrality: his Russian equivalent is Makhmud Gareev, not too neutral guy.
I prefer to rely upon opinions of English speaking western historians (British and American).
Re: maloy kroviiu, this official doctrine implied only counter-attack. Read the sources, please.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely! Soviet documents reveal, that the Soviet aggression against Finland was planned as a 'counterattack' (!) (контрудар) in the course of defending the state border. Some witty people, btw, explain that generally, there have never been and shall never be any offensive wars in the history of mankind. Wars are divided in two - defensive wars and pre-emptive wars :D. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 14:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't mix pretexts with real plans. The war against Finland was a pure aggression, although under pretext of a counterattack. By contrast, Germany (in actuality, united Europe) was much more formidable opponent to play in such games, especially taking into account that Winter war demonstrated what RKKA was in actuality.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

May I suggest *all* of this deserves a separate article, something like "The Soviet offensive plans controversy", and that it be mentioned only briefly in the Operation Barbarossa article?

David Glantz's "Stumbling Colossus" was inspired as a refutation of Suvorov.

regards, DMorpheus (talk) 12:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Fully agreed. In addition, by writing When reviewed, it was studiously condemned. Raack expressed the whole historian community's opinion. The renaming to "The Soviet offensive plans controversy" is a good idea.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal to start a new article. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 13:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That is half the proposal though. The other half is to pull most of this content out of the Barbarossa article, because its a source of needless contention about a side issue. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 15:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Correct. It is not a big problem, taking into account that the sub-section partially repeats what the mother section says (e.g. Stalin's speech). Meltiukhov's table also fits well into the mother section (just after the words:"Enormous Soviet forces were massed behind the western border in case the Germans did attack). I think, few words about Suvorov can be placed there. Feel free to remove the section and to re-arrange the "Soviet preparations" section accordingly.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

PS I also don't mind you to delete the subsection completely without any changes in the mother section.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Evaluating credentials of different historians is not our business. We should focus on factual information instead. The most important factual information is the existed plan of the Soviet command. Let's cite this plan first. Everything else is secondary.Biophys (talk) 16:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Quite opposite. We cannot present our own conclusions but, since per policy "Articles should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" we can and have to distinguish between highly reliable sources (academic books and articles), not very reliable sources (books written by not famous or not professional scholars) and non-reliable sources. The best way to istinguish between these three is to evaluate credentials...--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and all the sources above (see the list), all history books by Victor Suvorov and books by Radzinsky certainly qualify as reliable sources per WP:RS.Biophys (talk) 02:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but the best way to cite this is to do it briefly here, and continue the discussion of the Soviet offensive plans controversy in a separate article. That article can host the continuation of this line of discussion. No need for it here since it is not in fact central to Barbarossa. I invite you all to edit that article now; I've got a very rough version laid out and ready for editing by others. If it is OK, then we will trim back the same content that is in this article. Apologies for the rollback I did, but I was trying to get the basics done first before we went at it. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 16:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree in general. Perhaps the last paragraph (about Meltukhov) can now be removed and described in sub-article you created.Biophys (talk) 17:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and all the sources above (see the list), all history books by Victor Suvorov.....certainly qualify as reliable sources per WP:RS.:: You can't be serious. I am not a professional historian and I can spot massive errors in Suvorov's books. DMorpheus (talk) 14:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear DMorpheus, although I support your point of view on Suvorov's writing, our own opinion have no weight on WP pages. However, serious scholars have already done this job for us. As I already wrote, a number of negative reviews on the Suvorov's books (summarized by Raack:"In fact, Suvorov's book, although published by Viking in North America, went almost unnoticed over here. When reviewed, it was studiously condemned") demonstrate that Suvorov's "Ledokol" and other WWII related books should be treated with great caution. It is necessary to concede, however, that some other Suvorov's books (e.g. the book about GRU, a Soviet military intelligence) got rather favourable reviews (although the reviewer noticed that the author doesn't disclose his sources), but it has no direct relation to the subject of our discussion.
The Biophys' statement ("all history books by Victor Suvorov and books by Radzinsky certainly qualify as reliable sources per WP:RS"), is fully unsubstantiated, whereas a number of sources support the opposite point of view. (BTW, it seems odd that Biophys completely ignored the David Brandenberger's review on the Radzinsky's book. The quotes from this review (see above) demonstrates clearly that the review was generally negative).
--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:29, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

• If you have any concerns about reliability of these sources, please ask at WP:RS. These are books written by notable historians Edvard Radzinsky and Victor Suvorov. But we do not have even an article about David Brandenberger. Who is he? OK. I see. He is an Assistant professor in a provincial University and he wrote a book. He is nobody compare to Suvorov and Radzinsky who published at least 20-50 books each, and these books on History subjects were sold in many millions of copies.Biophys (talk) 00:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Re: "But we do not have even an article about David Brandenberger." There is an article about Sergey Dorenko, so what?

Re: "Who is he?". Just look at google.scholar.com. His books are cited much more frequently than Radzinsky's books.

I know you are a scientist, and I believe you are aware of a peer-reviewing procedure. The work that passed this procedure weighs much more.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Good point. I checked ISI citation index of David Brandenberger. He has 10 publications in scientific journals on the Soviet and German subjects. His ISI citation index in those articles is ZERO - no one cited him. That is his scientific reputation. Of course one can find many Google hits since he published a book and has a web site. Yes, he is thousand times less notable than Dorenko, not mentioning Radzinsky who is now the most popular History writer in Russia.Biophys (talk) 03:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

You probably used ISI incorrectly. The search (Author=(Brandenberger D OR Brandenberger D*) Refined by: Subject Areas=(HISTORY OR POLITICAL SCIENCE)) gives 12 citations without self-citations. The search (Radzinsky E OR Radzinsky E*) gives nothing.
google.scholar.com gives 37 citations to Brandenberger's "National Bolshevism: Stalinist mass culture and the formation of modern Russian national identity, 1931-1956", 34 citations to his "The unknown Lenin: from the secret archive", 9 citations to his "'The people need a tsar': The emergence of national Bolshevism as Stalinist".
Radzinsky's most cited book (Stalin) has been cited only 24 times. Definitely, Brandenberger is more notable than Radzinsky, according to these databases.
With regard to Dorenko, you seem not to get my point. Dorenko's notability means nothing in that case, because he is not a historian at all. Therefore, the very fact of existing (or not existing) of WP article means almost nothing.
One way or the another, I am glad that you passed from unsubstantiated claims to concrete arguments.
Regards, --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• I checked this again. No, twelve is the number of his publications (most of them are 1-2 page reviews of books written by others). But his own publications were cited by others only 2 times. That's a proof he is nobody as a researcher. For comparison, one of undegraduate students I worked with is cited ~40 times.Biophys (talk) 13:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

1. I don't know how did you do your search, but I checked again. (Author=(Brandenberger D OR Brandenberger D*) Timespan=1960-2009. Databases=SSCI, A&HCI.) gave 18 articles that cite Brandenberger's works (without self-citations).
2. It is strange that you completely ignored the fact that Radzinsky's index is ZERO. (I believe 18 vs 0 is an impressive score)
3. You ignored the google.scholar.com results. Scholar, by contrast to google.com, gives only scientific citations and, according to [1] is comparable to ISI.
4. You seem to miss the fact that, whereas ISI is highly regarded in general, SSCI has been criticized for its bias (see. Daniel Klein and Eric Chiang. The Social Science Citation Index: A Black Box—with an Ideological Bias? Econ Journal Watch, Volume 1, Number 1, April 2004, pp 134-165.)
5. You completely missed a fact that the biological sciences (a sphere of your interests) are among the most cited areas of knowledge, so biochemists, biophysicists or molecular biologists are being cited much more frequently than even physicists of matematicians. History is much less frequently cited sphere of knowledge, so 12 citations to historical books worth much more than 120 citations to biophysical article. (I am a little bit disappointed that I have to explain you so obvious things).

One way or the another, according to both these databases Radzinsky is much less notable than Brandenberger.
Regards,
--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:16, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Icebreaker got taken down thoroughly by David Glantz in Stumbling Colossus. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 13:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear, DMorpheus, you are absolutely right. Glantz's criticism is especially important taking into account that he is an American Army's Colonel. Another detailed criticism of Suvorov's book is Gorodetsky's "Anti-Suvorov". Interestingly, although Gabriel Gorodetsky is internationally recognized historian, he published his "Anti-Suvorov" in Russia, that suggests that popularity of Suvorov's writings is local.
However, as you can see, our discussion with Biophys has switched to Radzinsky, a Russian historians who frequently appears on Russian TV and, by contrast to some reputable Russian historians, is very popular among Russian public. He is not a specialist in XX century's military history, and, based on his citation list, is not recognized in West. However, Biophys claims that his opinion is sufficient to take Suvorov's ideas seriously. I believe I was able to demonstrate Biophys was wrong.
--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• I do not see any reason why Glantz is better than Suvorov. To the contrary, Suvorov is a more notable author. His numerous books were sold in millions of copies and translated to many languages. One could tell that Glantz and others like him were "taken down thoroughly" by Suvorov. As about notability of Brandenberger, this is getting ridiculous. If you think he is notable, try to create at least a wikipedia article about him. It will probably be deleted based on WP:Notability.Biophys (talk) 03:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Suvorov is a popular writer. The only problem is that he is not a historian (at least he is not recognized by peers). With regards to popularity among general public, Dumas is even more popular, however, his books that were sold in millions of copies and translated to many languages cannot be considered a reliable source. Only notability among peers matters, and, according to this criterion, Suvorov is not notable, and his theory is a minority views or even a fringe theory.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

False claim removed

This edit:"These assertions remain a matter of debate among historians" directly contradicts to what the sources tell. Neither Uldrick nor Raack wrote that the Suvorov's assertions "remain a matter of debate among historians". Uldrick debunked everything Suvorov wrote whereas Raack summarized that Suvorov's theory was studiously condemned by a scientific community.
I conclude that the last modification is a direct falsification, and, therefore, a gross violation of WP policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Some historians, like Radzinsky obviously support his ideas. Hence a matter of debate.Biophys (talk) 03:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

My point was that you attributed your own conclusion to Uldricks and Raack, whereas neither of them wrote it was a matter of debates; just the opposite: American scientific community condemned Suvorov's theory, according to Raack.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:28, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

result

Would it not be more concise to say "German tactical victory, Soviet strategic victory"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.199.143 (talk) 23:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This has been debated at length and I invite you to read the archived discussion on the topic. In short, tactical results are meaningless in an operation of this size and only the strategic result is of any importance. That said, there is plenty of contention about the strategic result ;) Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 02:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)