Talk:Delphine LaLaurie

• Entertaining story, but it would be nice to have some sources fo the information. Also, needs some more work on the grammar and some NPOV help. --Barista | a/k/a マイケル | T/C 07:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes...

I made the page just so Delphine LaLaurie would exist within Wikipedia. I was hoping someone else with more knowledge would fix it up! --Donnald 21:29, 3 September 2005

lalaurie story

In the book "Haunted America" by Michael Norman and Beth Scott, the Lalaurie story had been recounted.

Lalaurie research

I'm doing some research on Delphine Lalaurie (nee Macarty), and I'll update the entry with what I find.

--Brecluse 01:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Laulaurie image

I'm wondering what the source of this image (Delphine Lalaurie image) is. It would be nice to actually verify that it is indeed Delphine.

--Brecluse 17:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Papa La-Bas

The story is also told in John Dickson Carrs book "Papa La-Bas" (1968)

Clean up...

Could someone please "clean this up", I don't quite see what Wikipedia wants, and my entire original article has been removed... :-(

Fiction v. Fact

It's nice that you found another mention of it in the Papa La-Bas book, but this book is a work of fiction and not a reliable source. I am still planning on cleaning this up, but I've just not had time to do more research or updates. Maybe later this summer. Brecluse 17:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the claim about dead bodies being found in the flooring of the Lalaurie House is fiction, but I don't have a source. Anyone know for sure? Tulane97 14:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Donnald: where did the image come from?

I first started to do research on Delphine Lalaurie 10+ years ago as an idea for a movie. Much of the story is shockingly true. In fact the true events that occurred are way beyond most people’s imagination! I also think that the bodies discovered years later is fiction. The horror found in the attic was so much worse than this page describes! As it turns out, Ted Bundy, Gacy , and Dahmer are just child’s play in comparison. Any movie made about Delphine Lalaurie would never be rated anything except X and would never even get off the ground! A word of warning to anyone researching Delphine Lalaurie, know that what you will find are things so disturbing you may wish to never know about, and you’ll never be able to forget.

I'd really like to verify the image is indeed Delphine (one of the things I'm sure Wikipedia wants), can you tell me where you got it? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

Brecluse 17:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This website [1] seems to verify it. --Kerowyn ^{Leave a note} 08:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it merely has the image as well, but it does not list a source that I can find, and without a source it isn't verifiable. I need the actual print material that this was taken from in order to verify it. Brecluse 00:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I have read all the nineteenth century sources on this case available in the British Library (which turns out to have a pretty comprehensive selection of New Orleansiana) and none contain reproductions of this image, or any other claimed to represent Lalaurie. I think its provenance has to be rated extremely doubtful until someone can come forward with an exact source or reference to an archive holding. Mikedash (talk) 10:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Madame LaLaurie

This article should be merged with the article on Madame LaLaurie.

Fact or Fiction?

Is the story factual? The external links were entirely worthless, and the only source mentioned is a book from 1921 (which, judging by the title, is by no means focused on this person and the story). If the story were true, surely police records etc. would support it, and there'd be a whole lot more about it. I've never read about this person in books dealing with serial killers (she certainly would qualify), and a Lousianan friend dismissed this entirely as "a ghost story." The article doesn't even attempt to address that the story is not verified and is generally regarded as fiction. --84.230.123.136 18:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The Lalaurie story is difficult to verify, because even the newspaper articles of the time were sometimes embelished or even completely made up. I think we need a historian to tell us what is really known. Tulane97 18:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Delphine Lalaurie did exist, and she did live at this residence on Royal, but as Tulane97 indicates it's hard to verify what is true and what is exaggerated or false. It's something I'm interested in pursuing, but location/time makes it hard. Brecluse 16:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added an external link, pointing to a PDF of the edition where events are accounted for. Naturally, newspaper articles from that time period should be read with a critical eye. But at least it proves the incident is not a recent invention. The article in question is located at the top left of the PDF page. --80.203.143.201 16:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well done, linking that newspaper article! A decapitation of most critical remarks above... Now let's find some info in police records re the event! And some info on the doctor, her husband.

Examining this story, for that is what it is, using sound logic pokes it full of holes through which its brains might be stirred, as the artcle says.

First of all: All of the victims died before they could be interviewed by anyone. This seems remarkably convenient that they were able to start a fire but were too weak to survive for long afterwards.

Second of all: The victims start a fire, in the place where they are in, to gain attention, even though they are restrained and are likely to be killed by this fire.

Third: The slaves were taken away once before, and yet said nothing of the basement torture chamber or murders etc.

Fourth: Slaves were goddamn expensive! And buying 12, much less 80 some, just to kill them, would be a monumentally large misallocation of funds. Also, if they were all kept chained, how did the mansion function without its servants? Ms LaLaurie must have found time to do the dishes, cook the meals, serve the food and take care of her children inbetween being a murderess.

Fifth: Slaves are not cattle. It is impercievable that 80 people could disappear slowly, and that no one would have a clue as to what was occuring, especially considering:

Sixth: The murder chamber was on the third floor, and was run supposedly by a lady. We must therefore understand that she disposed of the bodies by carrying them down three flights of stairs on her own. She would then have to wash off her bloody garments, all without being noticed. This is impossible, and yet its never indicated that she had an accomplice.

Seventh: Anyone imprisoned in the attic of a house in New Orleans for long would have likely died of heat exhaustion long before any tortures could be performed.

Eighth: Mme. LaLaurie was clearly not present to defend herself in any way, and it is absurd that the tale can continue without further input from her, or without word of her.

Ninth: After ten or so people are found brutally tortured in her home, she is allowed to wander off freely by the constablary.

Tenth: The article claims 75 corpses were found buried on the third floor. WHAT?

For these ten reasons I believe this article must be looked at as highly suspect, as must the legend in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.24.97 (talk) 01:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this, but your arguments are not very hard to turn down...

nr1: The fire was started by those servants not victims to torture. The actions performed in the chamber was evident just by looking at the victims, so it would not be necessary to ask them about more than: "Who did this?", and did not take much effort to say: "Madame", before ones last breath. Those circumstances seem to be very unclear by the way, I agree with you there; what happened to the servants not subjected to torture? According to the story, they were several servants in the house performing normal servant-duties for her guests. Had they perhaps been changed the very same day? Had she had some kind of collapse and suddenly decided to make all her staff victims? Had she been out on a visit when the fire started perhaps, and was it the custom to chaine the "free" part of the staff while she was out? and what happened to those servants not tortured, not found in the chamber, afterwards? That isn't clear. Perhaps they were interwieved? But a slave would hardly be officially counted as a witness gainst his/her owner.

nr2: Again, the fire was started by those servants not victims of torture- and even restrained, they were desperate, or convinced that the fire department would be there in time.

nr3:Who knows? No one cared what slaves said, and perhaps they realised that.

nr4:A sadist would find the money well spent. And, again; she only selected a few of the servants to be taken to the torture chamber, while the majority of course functioned as servants- though for some reason, also the rest was changed to their work places at the night of the fire. Perhaps she wanted them to die?

nr5:Well, sure slaves weren't cattle, but for upperclass- people, one servant looks just as the next one. They are not recongisable as individuals. Besides, who is to say it weren't noticed?

nr6:No one believes that the rest of the house did not know, even though they may not have taken part in the actual torture. Slaves were of course used to carry out her orders and to carry the bodies, perhaps in fear of being victims themselwes- they were not considered accomplices, as they by law was merely expected to do what they were told. Personally, I wonder why the husband was never suspected. It all sounds like medical experiments to me.

nr7:I'm sure many did. Most victims found there was found dead. And why would she wait long? She could have done so directly after they were brought there.

nr8:I really don't understand that. Wether she was innocent or guilty, she would of course deny everything. After she eskaped from town - and i find the version that she left for Paris more realistic than the silly story about her becoming a woodo queen(!) in the outskirts of New Orleans- she would hardly wish to return, whatever stories told about here there.

nr9: The chronology of events during the night it was discovered does'nt seem very clear; they are several versions. Personally, I believe the version saying that she fled imediatly after they broke in to her home is most realistic, but, by all means- the legal situations was not clear either; "people"? They were slaves after all, and not considered as full worthy people, otherwise the wouldn't have been slaves.

nr10:I agree with you there. but as it say that was found so late in time, it should not be hard to verify. I am skeptic myself; how could they hide the stench of the corpses? Perhaps some sort of embalming? Perhaps the number was exaggerated, and it was in fact only ten or so; they had ben put there shortly before the night of the fire, when they were still alive, and as the house was empty for many years afterwards, no one woild have noticed the smell...but, as I say, I'm skeptic about that myself.

Anyway, I did this just for argument sake, I know nothing about this. As far as I know, she could have ben innocent, but the slaves found in her house that night must have ben injured in remarcable ways, why else would even slave owners have been so upset? Surely, something must have happened. The whole thing seems to have been swept under the carpet in a legal sence, so it's hard to tell what is true or not; sensationalism was able to run rampant.--85.226.235.208 (talk) 09:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Nicolas Cage

Actor Nicolas Cage has bought the LaLAurie Mansion. [2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.78.126.114 (talk) 09:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

• The whole Nicholas Cage part needs to be rewritten. It looks to be plagiarised from newspaper/magazine article >.> Rogutaan (talk) 05:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Why just Delphine?

Why is it just Delphine who is infamous for the treatment of the slaves etc in the house? Presumably her husband must have had a hand in it, or at least known about it?

I also think that would be interesting to know. Someone should insert exactly who did what, if there are any information about it.--85.226.235.206 (talk) 14:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the article says nothing on her husband Louis, even if he escaped when there was an angry mob. William Ortiz (talk) 05:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Auguste Macarty

I have found several sources on the net that suggests a Auguste Macarty was elected mayor in 1815. No 'Augustine' elected in 1812 is mentioned anywhere, as far as I can see. I have changed the article accordingly. 80.203.143.201 22:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Earlier history

There is very little about her life before the 1830s. There should be at least the names of her first husbands, and more about her early life in general, if this is known. Are they, for example, any indications, perhaps gossip, that she did something like this when she was young? Are there any information about her parents, and if they did something similar? This would be interesting from a psycological point of view.--85.226.235.206 (talk) 14:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The book I cited here does mention at least one of her earlier marriages, but again verifying the veracity of those mentions has proven to be difficult. I would be glad to dig up my old research and add it all though for further digging. Brecluse (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think that would be interesting and helpful, even if the verifying, as often with historical subjects, is difficult. I have found something myself which I added today regarding her first marriages. A source on the net say: She was born Marie Delphine, daughter of Louis Barthelemy Chevalier de Maccarthy. She was first married on June 11, 1800 to Don Ramon de Lopez y Angulo. When he died on March 26, 1804 in Havana, Cuba, she married Jean Blanque in 1808, who died in 1816. From there she married Dr. Lalaurie on June 12, 1825. I have inserted this as well as the source in the article. --85.226.235.206 (talk) 13:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Delphine's birthplace

The article does not state where she was born. Was it New Orleans or Haiti? It just says that her parents were members of the New Orleans community, but then it adds (almost casually) that they were killed in a slave uprising. Which slave uprising? Where and when? Loiusiana did not have many slave revolts, however, Haiti, as we all know, did.--jeanne (talk) 08:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

When I read this article last, I seem to remember that it did say that they were killed in a slave revolt in Haiti. Perhaps it was reverted, or I've read it somewhere else. Anywhay, that's what i seem to remember, though I can't say were I've read it if it wasn't here. my guess: the information about her earliest life seem unclear, so maybe the family either emigrated from Haiti during the revolt, or simply visited Haiti at the time of the revolt there. Only a guess! --85.226.47.188 (talk) 13:35, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, several sites on the net claim that her parents were killed in a slave revolt on Haiti. Here is one [[3]]. It seems as though her parents were visitng Haiti when this happened. Perhaps this had some effect in her view on slaves, who knows. --85.226.47.188 (talk) 15:00, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Historical accuracy

As always, the key to understanding a story is to go back to the original sources. These confirm some of the basics of the "legend", notably the alleged death of a slave girl who jumped from the roof, the setting of a fire by one of the slaves, the discovery of a number of maltreated slaves by rescuers, and Madame Lalaurie's flight. None of the ridiculously ludicrous allegations listed in the 'rumours' section are substantiated, however, and few can be traced to sources published any earlier than the late 1990s. This is not entirely surprising, as no nineteenth century newspaper would have published such lurid and suggestive details, and the 'facts', if real, would have had to come either from court papers or eyewitness testimony, neither of which have ever been shown to exist. I have added a brief corrective, but really this entire article needs rewriting to state the history clearly and to reduce the 'rumours' section to what it should be, a brief one or two line mention at the foot of the article. I would be more than happy for the main contributors to the article as it stands to take this on. Over to you, gentlemen and -women. Mikedash (talk) 10:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I have asked a question about this subject below (Question:"Why was people so upset? Why was the second time different?")--85.226.44.190 (talk) 09:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Citizenship

In 1775, New Orleans was part of New France, and not of the United States. Accordingly, she was born French (as much as a baby born today in French Guyana. He wasn't born in mainland France, but in France nonetheless, thereby making him a French citizen, and not a "South American"). She was not "american" (in the sense of the word as is used in Wikipedia). Please correct it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.180.152 (talk) 07:16, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, New Orleans was a part of Spain in 1763-1800. But otherwise you are correct. --85.226.44.74 (talk) 20:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Year of birth

In 1842, when she allegedgely died, she was sixty-something. So couldn't she be born anytime between 1772 and 1783? And be 60 or 69 year when she died?--85.226.44.74 (talk) 20:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Why was people so upset? Why was the second time different?

If everything about torture, murder, etc was all fantasy, and nothing else happened but some slaves being locked up in a room, then why was poeple so upset that she had to leave town? This was a slave society after all, surely it was not uncommon for slaves to be badly treated. So why was people so upset that she was nearly lynched? Would that not mean that the slaves was wounded in unusaul ways? Even if it was uncommon to go so far as to chain slaves, it is hard to imagine that this nearly led to a lynching in a slave society. In short; why was people upset to this degree? There must have been a reason. --85.226.45.227 (talk) 11:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, why have this drawn attention at all? Why is it famous? Why did people even bother, if nothing unusual hapened? --85.226.46.215 (talk) 13:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

This is just sad. Slaves or not, laws in place to cease excessive torture and/or intentional murder of slaves have been in place on and off around the world since slavery has existed. Or did you NOT notice she had her slaves removed from her and she was fined a huge amount of money? This is indeed a place that enslaved people and did not consider them true humans, and yet she was bad enough for these people to think she was a psycho bitch. Learn some history. 143.238.218.76 (talk) 07:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC) Harlequin

There is no reason to be upset. You do not understand my point. Yes, I read the article, I read about the first fines, that is exactly why I have asked my question. This is just what I am talking about. Why was she just not punished the same way as she was the last time? Just as you say, she was given a fine and had her slaves taken from her the first time. Why was she just not given another fine and had the slaves removed from her again? Why was this time considered any different? The law is one thing, public oppinion another. I the law decided, she would perhaps have been given another fine. But people was upset enough to chase her out of town. Why did they not do this the first time? The assumption must be, that this was different, much worse; that she had done something uncommonly cruel. And yet, the article states that nothing else was discovered but some slaves locked up in a room; mistreated, yes, but not mutilated and tortured. This would have lead to another pair of fines and removal of slaves. But instead, she was nearly lynched. Why? This is a reasonable question, and nothing for you to lynch me about. I am from Europe and of course I know that this is a sensitive question in USA. If you are so superior to me in your knowledge in history, then perhaps you can explain this to me. --85.226.46.215 (talk) 10:35, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

To say that all of it is fantasy, will make it just as strange as saying that all wild theories about this case is true. The truth must surely be somewhere in the middle. Wether she really conducted medical experiments may well be untrue. But something terrible must have happened (more than what would otherwise be accepted in such a society) otherwise there would have been no reason what so ever for this case to have been known in history at all. Surely she was not the only slave owner to have broken the law (if this was truly the case) by looking her slaves up. It is important to learn how to conduct a discussion without being emotional. --85.226.44.190 (talk) 17:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

This is indeed an interesting question, which needs to be answered if one feels it is necessary to discover the truth about this case. It is, truly, contradictive to logic in many ways; if none of the torture etc happened, why have this case became known in history? If it did happen, then why does the article claim nothing happen more than (If I remember correctly) the locking up of slaves in a room? No matter what the law say, would this have been considered terrible by the majority in this society? This is contradicitve, and needs to be clearified. However, cases of this sort is usually controversial, and it is easier to let your emotions ran away with you than to discuss fats. It is not uncommon, that many feel that it is more important to distance yourself from things like this and state your opinions, and to present facts which supports this opinion such as: "She was a massmurderer who tortured and conducted medical expermients" or "She was the target of lies and propaganda and was in fact innocent" rather than to present and discuss facs wathever they may say. That was speaking in general about such cases. I myself have no idea wath is true about this case in particular. The facts about this case may also simply be unknown, or hard to look upon neautrally. It is also important to realise, that some things, sadly, may be simply be too sensitive to discuss for some, which may be sad, but something important to consider. Perhaps these contradictive facts will be clearifyed some day. Regards--Aciram (talk) 11:00, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Answers aren't forthcoming not because of racial tensions but because the sole book about this event was written, as is stated in the article, by someone who appears to have written it to advance her tourism business. Newspaper sources from the 1800s show that the information in the book is incorrect. Until more information on the event is discovered, these questions won't be answered, unfortunately. This was a minor event two hundred years ago, which has become an urban legend because of a self-promoting book written in the last few years. If that book hadn't been written, this article probably wouldn't even exist - as it is, the article is to a large degree a disproof of the book. It's not that Americans don't want to look at this question because of racism or because of troubled history, it's that (1) it's a really minor event that was blown up into an imaginary grand guignol by a tourism promoter, and (2) since it was a minor event, there are no historical studies of it. Flopsy Mopsy and Cottonmouth (talk) 04:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Further debate re. historical accuracy

On 24 May editor Jlpavich added the following to the section "Historical accuracy":

"In Response to Above Claim: The New Orleans Bee did in fact report some of the crimes detailed above in it's edition on Friday April 11th 1834 (English edition). A record of this can be viewed online through the Jefferson Parish Library Archives."

I have removed this to the talk page because the Bee of 11 April does not support any of the more lurid claims discussed. The paper for that date does contain a deposition made by an eye-witness, Judge Canonge, who reports on his entry to the Lalaurie mansion and the discovery of the imprisoned slaves. Canonge states simply: “One of the ngresses had an iron collar, very large and heavy, and was chained with heavy irons by the feet… [another] old negress was found who had a deep wound on her head." This edition of the paper is freely available online at http://nobee.jefferson.lib.la.us/Vol-009/index.html. The relevant pdf is number 0038. Mikedash (talk) 15:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

However, 0038 is the April 12 Bee, not April 11. One of the April 11 pages, pdf 0034 (1834-04-0034) (far left column) ... http://nobee.jefferson.lib.la.us/Vol-009/04_1834/1834_04_0034.pdf ... speaks of the incident. "upon entering one of the (apartments?) the most appalling spectacle met their eyes. Seven (?) slaves more or less horribly mutilated were seen suspended by the neck with their limbs apparently stretched and (torn?) from one extremity to the other. Language is powerless and inadequate to give a proper conception of the horror which a scene like this must have inspired. We shall not attempt it, but rather leave it to the reader's imagination to picture what it was.

The slaves were the property of a demon, in the shape of a woman, whom we mentioned in the beginning of this article. They had been confined by her for several months in the situation from which they had thus providentially been rescued and had been merely kept in existence in order to prolong their sufferings, and to make them taste all that the most refined cruelty could inflict."

Now, this in no way means that this story is true. Quite to the contrary, it sounds like something newspaper writers of the time commonly composed in order to sell papers. However, it does indicate that, at the time of the fire, there were rumors of mutilation and extreme cruelty.