Talk:Fuzhou dialect

Min opera

The section on Min opera in this article is merely copy-pasted from the Min Opera article itself. I considered deleting the section and adding a "See Also" link, but wanted some input first. Thoughts? MeredithParmer 19:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I've removed those texts. --GnuDoyng 16:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

How to translate "緊韻" and "鬆韻"？

I translate them into "close rime" and "open rime" but I'm not sure of its correctness. See Close/Open rimes.

Has anyone got an idea?

GnuDoyng 13:49, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

"Short-Sighted Principle"

Do we need to say "short-sighted principle that Mandarin Chinese and Fuzhou dialect were contradictory rather than complementary." Can we remove "short-sighted"? It is controversial and unnecessary to put this adjective in the article --Honghaier 19:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Why? Oppressing local dialects in the name of popularizing the national language is morally a crime. --GnuDoyng 10:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It may or may not be morally a crime. I do not see how it makes it short-sighted, though. In any case, I think this is a controversial topic and does not need to be placed in the article. All we need to mention is that the government suppresses fuzhouhua. Let people form their own opinions. --Honghaier 19:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

GnuDoyng, I am back to discuss the "short-sighted principle" to which you are referring to in the article. I took some time off to think about it and I really do believe that you are violating the NPOV policy on wikipedia by expressing a policy point of view. I really appreciate your contributions to the project but I ask that we work some consensus on this topic because I cannot allow this POV to be expressed in a language article. Do you or do you not agree that by calling the language policy of the Nationalist and the Communist Party "short-sighted" you are imposing your own opinion? --Honghaier 19:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Please sign your comments before you come to discuss anything with me. Thank you. --GnuDoyng 09:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. Now let's get back to the matter at hand --Honghaier 19:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

All right, then. But before we get down to business, I'd like to ask you a few questions: Are you, or were you once, a Hók-ciŭ-uâ speaker? Have you ever been to Foochow? Wouldn't you be hurt if your mother tongue, along with the culture it carries, is oppressed by authority?

By saying "short-sighted", I wasn't only giving voice to my personal feelings, but also to the opinion of many other Foochowese people. I've lived in that city for 19 years since I was born so I'm quite sure of that. If you carry out a survey asking residents whether it is justifiable to abandon the local language, you will get the same answer: NO!

BTW, I don't like to discuss things with anyone anonymous. I strongly suggest you should set up an account in Wikipedia. There are millions of people named "George" (and my English name is George too -_-"), so only a wiki username can identify yourself. --GnuDoyng 17:55, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Just for you, I will create an account. There are three points I want to make, in response to your comments:

1. I am not a Fuzhou dialect speaker and have never been to Fuzhou. However, I live in New York City and many of my friends come from Fuzhou and speak it. No, I would not be hurt if my mother tongue were oppressed by authority. In fact, I deplore the fact that my mother tongue has yet not been supplanted by a more dominant, widely accepted language. Which brings me to my other point

2. I am in no way trying to impose my un-orthodox opinion on languages on this article. All I am asking for is that we clear the article of POVs. If you need to state that oppressing minority languages is morally reprehensible or 'short-sighted', then please say it in brackets. It would be something like "a policy which many people find criminal". Please dont just blurt it out as a fact. This lowers the standard of wikipedia.

3. And my last, sidenote comment. What's with 'short-sighted' anyway? So far you have been making the case for a policy lacking in morals. Still no reasons given for short-sighted. Short-sighted would be a policy that in the long run produces results that the authority would find counterproductive. So far, the authority in this case does not seems to be cutting the branch on which it sits, so to speak. --Honghaier 19:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your creating an account just for me. As a Wikipedian, I would feel very much bewildered if someone who hasn't got a wiki account would turn out to be offended by such a slight taint of NPOV violation. Still, from your viewpoint about your mother tongue (which arouses antipathy in me, sorry I have to say), I can tell that you are no less radical than me, the only difference being that we are standing at the two ends of a spectrum. So how do you prove that you are not trying, in an unconscious way, to impose your own opinion about the Chinese language policy by demanding the remove of this single word?

Since you come from the United States, I think the best and easiest way to convince you is to make a survey in your city about how people think about the early language policy in the American history, when thousands of aboriginal Indian languages disappeared before any fieldwork could have been done. When a language dies, its distinct culture also dies, and such loss is beyond measure. Do most of the Americans consider the early English hegemonic policy as "short-sighted"? I firmly believe it.

As a compromise, I agree to put that word in parentheses. Arguably, however, this world of diversity needs more than ever to be shared and maintained, and any deed against that will equal to committing a crime to the whole mankind in the long term. This is really a moral issue. I hope you realize that before it is too late. --GnuDoyng 04:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, you ask me about mine and other people's opinions. I will satisfy your curiosity: No, I do not think it was shot-sighted to impose a single language in the U.S. A single language was what made this country united and great.

The thing is, opinions on this issue really should not matter. I could have argued for NPOV policy even if I held the opposite opinion. I am glad that you recognize (in your post above) that the article as it currently stands violates the NPOV policy. Why do you then insist on breaking the policy?

As long as you state that fuzhou language has been suppressed, no one needs to be reminded that it is morally wrong: they either already know it or they do not agree. Everyone will already have formed an opinion before reading this article. Stating the opinion as a fact does nothing but fire emotions and lower the standard of Wikipedia.

I disagree that putting 'short-sighted' in parenthesis does anything to address the NPOV violation. I think it needs to be removed completely. Since it looks like you are the major contributor to this article, I feel bad to come here and tell you how to write it so I am willing to compromise if you put the reference as something like "a policy that many people find short-sighted". Ideally, even this needs to be referenced with a source.--Honghaier 19:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Removed. I need to mind you, however, a unified language counts for nothing in making a nation united and great. --GnuDoyng 05:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Glad we reached a solution. I noticed that the Mandarin page for Fuzhou has a similar problem, so I posted a note in the talk page in my really awful Chinese--Honghaier 22:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The Chinese version of this article is mainly translated from English by me. You don't have to wait until someone responds to the note, just go ahead and remove what you think is improper and fill in the edit summary blank with your reason. --GnuDoyng 01:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

You flatter. I can't dream of speaking Chinese well enough to edit wikipedia articles. Although I guess it should be something like

幾十年來國語運動事實上是建立在一個理念之上...

--Honghaier 02:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The phrase "錯誤" is removed. --GnuDoyng 10:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Kompyang

Need the pronunciation of Kompyang (光饼 - an onion biscuit from Fuzhou that is popular in Malaysia) in the Fuzhou dialect. Please add it at Kompyang if you know it. I assume the Min Nan pronunciation isn't going to be close enough. Badagnani 17:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. --GnuDoyng 15:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

福州别字

You know, the negative word "mei" written 卖 is most definitely 未. Cantonese uses this character for the same sound. <spetz> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.85.210 (talk) 05:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

No. "未" is pronounced as [mui] or [ei] in Foochow, quite different from "卖". --GnuDoyng 03:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:1 Cü Meng.gif

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Min Dong is a separate language, not Fuzhou?

Min Dong is a separate language, not Fuzhou?? No, Fuzhou dialect is a member of Min Dong language family. And the fact is, even within this language family, Fuzhou dialect itself is not mutually intelligible with other Min Dong languages like those spoken in Ningde. --GnuDoyng (talk) 04:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Move Fuzhou dialect to Foochowese Language

For NPOV, shouldn't we move Fuzhou dialect to Foochowese language? This article of Foochowese seems to be the only one in Min languages that is denominated with "dialect". Isn't it ridiculous? --Luhungnguong (talk) 23:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

That's right. Such misnomer often conceals the gigantic differences between this language and Mandarin Chinese. However, I think Fuzhou language or Foochow language might be better (I personally prefer the former one), because "Foochowese" is too new a word to be accepted into formal use. --GnuDoyng (talk) 05:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree. But "Foochow language" is my preference, since the word "Foochow" appeared in published materials (like dictionary) more frequently than Fuzhou (which is also a new word). --Luhungnguong (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)