Talk:Brothers of Jesus

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The Sources talk page has been set up to archive citations from primary sources until they can be moved to Wikisource: Desposyni according to the Church Fathers Ovadyah 13:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Older

the "see" of Israel: A See is the seat of a bishop. There was a (Pauline Christian) see of Jerusalem, but the idea of a see of "Israel" which no longer exised, or even of Palestine or Judea, which did exist, is the product of a modern imagination. Wetman 01:12, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

• Wetman is correct therefore I have edited the article to reflect his comment. Loremaster 04:23, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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I feel that an entry Desposyni needs to disambiguate all the "cover names" in the Pauline New Testament (like "Mary mother of James" after the Crucifixion) and the equivocations that cover genuine family relationships. And the relations of Jesus and Mary Magdalene need to be carefully addressed. After all "who" the Desposyni were is a basic point. (I'm not competent to do this. Or I'm chicken...) Wetman 06:24, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• As always, I agree with Wetman. The Desposyni article was a quick creation of mine that I intended to come back to one day and make over but never did. I will try to do so as soon as I get some free time and find more sources. Loremaster 14:43, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Source?

Hello, what's the source for this statement: "Every early community of Judean followers of Jesus, whether it was Nazarene or Ebionite, was governed by a desposynos as a patriarch, and each of them carried one of the names traditional in Jesus' family but no one was ever named after him."

Also, what's the source for Jesus being a descendent of Zadok, David's High Priest? The Zadok given in Jesus' genalogy in the New Testament belongs to the time after the Babylonian Exile, at least five hundred years afte David's Zadok, doesnt' he?

Thanks. -- 84.57.14.9 17:50, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The source for the first claim is Martin, Malachi. The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church. New York: Bantam, 1983. 30-31.

The second claim is inaccurate and has been corrected to state that Jesus was a descendant of Aaron rather than Zadok. The source is Luke 1:5 and Luke 1:36. Do you need me to elaborate more?

Loremaster 20:37, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I have edited somewhat the statement of their dynastic legitimacy as fact. They may of course be true heirs, I don't know, but there just isn't enough documentation or other evidence to establish such claims irrefutably. Fire Star 15:30, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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What sources did Malachi Martin cite for his statement that "Every early community of Judean followers of Jesus, whether it was Nazarene or Ebionite, was governed by a desposynos as a patriarch, and each of them carried one of the names traditional in Jesus' family but no one was ever named after him?" Martin's account of the desposyni meeting with Pope Sylvester is equally suspicious. Where did he get it? Jbull 13:59, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Blood relative?

I thought that most Christians believed that Joseph wasn't a blood relative of Jesus. Is this an inaccuracy in the article, or an inconsistency within the belief being explained? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:19, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As "Son of God", logically Jesus could be no more than a half-brother of any human being. Thus the desposyni, as Jesus' human relatives, are "half-brothers" and "half-cousins" and "half-second cousins twice removed" if you like. But, and much more to the point, no such distinctions are made in Scripture, unless "brothers" does not really mean brothers —a strained reading that Roman Catholic tradition since Jerome has come ever more strongly to assert, because the developing mythology of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary trumped the plain-spoken statements in Scripture concerning family relationships. If the entry is insufficiently clear, it is because we need to be very careful on these points, or "disputed" banners will be applied and "controversial" text suppressed. --Wetman 18:52, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't talking about brothers or half-brothers, but about Joseph (described as Jesus' father in the article). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:01, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I added a short caveat to address this but this has to be developed. Loremaster 20:47, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK — though now I have another problem. Who used this term in this way if not Christians? Following the various links I managed to work it out (though I'm still a little hazy), but shouldn't this be stated clearly right at the beginning?
Incidentally, in Cypriot Greek Desposyni means Miss, Mademoiselle, etc. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:01, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've edited the article again for clarification. Desposyni was a term used by Christians, Nazarenes and Ebionites. However, only the Ebionites used it to refer to Joseph due to their belief that he was the biological father of Jesus. Have you taken the time to learn more about the differences between these three sects within the Jesus movement? Loremaster 20:18, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Church fathers

I'm crossposting a recent post on Talk:Jesus Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 22:34, 4 May 2006 (UTC):

Hey - I would have just added this myself but the page is frozen. But I think we should add a section on the Fathers' view of Jesus' genealogy (specifically the view in Augustine's Retractions 2:7; St. Jerome's Commentary on Matthew 1:16; Eusebius of Caesarea's view in the Ecclesiastical History 1:7; and John Damascene's view in his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 4:14. That tradition says:

Heli son of Matthat was descended from David's son Solomon; Jacob son of Matthan from David's son Nathan. The Fathers claim that Heli and Jacob were in fact half-brothers. According to tradition, their mother Estha first married Matthat and had Heli; then after Matthat died, she married Matthan and had Jacob.

Now, when Heli grows up, he marries a woman (tradition doesn't assign her a name as far as I can tell) but dies before they have any children. Then, in accordance with the levirate law in Deuteronomy 25:5, Jacob married Heli's widow, and "raised up seed for his brother." Thus, Jacob was physically Joseph's father, but Heli was accounted his father in accordance with the Law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam sk (talk • contribs)

Jesus Descendants down to today

The 2003-06 best seller, Da Vinci Code claimed the holy grail was Jesus bloodline down to today and was just following that same subject from earlier (1983-4) best seller, Holy Blood Holy Grail. Many off point disagreements over this assume immediately, that this meant Jesus didnt die on the cross and never went to heaven and so later had children. And so that would undermine all Christianity.

In fact, no one in these discussions ever meant that; they meant Jesus had children before he died on the cross and then still went to heaven. And the Bible clearly prophecied that Jesus would have children.

See -

• He shall see his Seed - Isaiah 53: 10
• He shall sprinkle his Seed across many nations - Isaiah 52:15
• Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker, ask me of things to concerning My Sons ... Isaiah 45: 11

The only source settling this all out for On Point consideration is the new book : The Jesus Presidents,

Descendants to Today to You?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.100.196 (talk • contribs)

Spam? Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 21:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Jesus Descendants

Descendants of Jesus himself are "direct" Desposyni versus descendants of related lines descended from his brothers and sisters or from his cousin John the Baptist.

These are the related lines of Jesus direct family including a postulated twin of his named Thomas who died in Mylapore, India where the evidence exists, it is claimed, for his having living there.

In addition, in Northwest India, are records of Jesus himself having visited and remained a time. And some claim, he is buried there. (see below)

Other's claim, Joseph of Arithathea was Jesus brother and so his bloodline in UK down to today also was a Desposyni line.

            Jesus = Mary Magdeline                Jesus twin Thomas
_____________________________________________     ___________________  
          |            |             |            died Mylapore India

Rama Theo Joseph Jesus II Tamar/ 40-70 AD Joseph Justus Alain/Galain Demaris Dau no known children

 down to              down to       + ? Paul
 Merovingian Kings    FitzAlan      no known
  AND to Brit,          &           descendants
  Scot, Wales kings   Stewart
  and all European     lines
    Kings             all Europe

• for more info see: The Jesus Presidents showing Jesus lines to today
  • Jesus also reportedly had a 2nd wife Lydia

Jesus Life in India

Expert Holgar Kersten sets out the details of Jesus life and death in India in his book [Jesus lived in India] (Element, Rocport, Mass, 1994 ISBN 1-85230-550-9).

He also discusses Jesus reverred tomb in Srinagar, Kashmir, India.

207.69.137.26lil desposyni sr~

If he's an expert, that's good enough for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.163.65.9 (talk) 03:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Personal surmise

This article is marred by self-indulgent personal surmise. Can it be re-edited as a report of what's been said, to give the reader a sense of the historical development of these ideas? --Wetman 08:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Basic argument

While this article mentions different opinions within the scriptures, it makes no mention of one of the most basic arguments - that a married man and woman, of that time period, would produce no issue, ever. In a time and place when women were expected to spend their lives bearing and raising sire for their husbands, and children were the only way for a person to ensure a future for themselves once they were past working prime. Its almost impossible to believe. BethEnd 02:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Dude, you don't "rais[e] sire" and the article should not imply that you do.

• Perhaps the article is not plain and clear enough, if someone has inserted John the Baptist here, as a "a relative of Jesus" (Yes, I do know the tradition, even its sources.) --Wetman 20:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer review Javascript

Desposyni

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"Majority" means "more than half", "any" means "any", and "all" means "all". These terms are not "vague" and should be used freely when appropriate.

• This article needs footnotes, preferably in the cite.php format recommended by WP:WIAFA. Simply, enclose inline citations, with WP:CITE or WP:CITE/ES information, with <ref>THE FOOTNOTE</ref>. At the bottom of the article, in a section named “References” or “Footnotes”, add <div class="references-small"><references/></div>.

• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 21:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Catholic interpretation about Jesus'brothers

The article did not give details. I made some additions. Please, correct me if my English is not right.

General vomit

UUuurrk! Rursus 00:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Holy Spirit

Why does this article not also include the popular belief that the Holy Spirit encompassed Mary and she bore Jesus? --KCMODevin 05:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Bible's Prophecy That Jesus Would Have A Family

• He shall see his Seed - Isaiah 53: 10

• He shall sprinkle his Seed across many nations - Isaiah 52:15

• • note- the HE in these two verses is Jesus Christ.

• Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker,

ask me of things to come concerning My Sons ... Isaiah 45: 11

The only source today setting this all out for On Point consideration is the new book - The Jesus Presidents. See link in article references.

All the other endless dialogue is 100% from persons unfamiliar with the subject except their familiarity with side issues as brothers, sisters, cousins -- see article.

/s/ AOEF

Toward peer review

This article has a lot of potential. There is much good material to work with, probably enough to get to GA. However, much of the article contains direct quotes extracted from various sources. These need to be rewritten in summary style with inline quotes or reference tags to the notes section. The primary sources could also be added to Wikisource and linked from there. Other parts of the article are reasonably complete but lack citations. These need to be cleaned up a bit and properly sourced. Currently, the article uses all three styles of citations: footnotes, embedded citations, and Harvard references. Personally, I prefer using footnotes to embedded citations or Harvard references. I think they improve the appearance of the article. Ovadyah 01:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Historical accounts of the Desposyni

I put the primary source quotations of Eusebius in quotation format and copied them to the Sources archive. They look good enough now for Wikisource. The quotations should be replaced in the article with a narrative abstract. However, we have a small problem. There is no secondary source which cites these quotations. An editor cannot act as her/his own secondary source. Ovadyah 00:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Now I see why. The section on Historical Accounts with the quotations of Eusebius, the section on the Desposyni and the Pope with the quotes of Malachi Martin, and the sections on Extended Family and Patriarchal Rule were all lifted verbatim from this website on the desposyni.[1] This simply will not do. Quoting from Malachi Martin's book, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church" without permission is also a copyright violation. Ovadyah 00:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

This academic discussion on Internet Infidels about Jesus' Jewish relatives contains some useful links to primary sources and books on the subject, including Joan E. Taylor "Christians and the Holy Places: The Myth of Jewish-Christian Origins", Oxford 1993. Ovadyah 01:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

How can there be historical accounts for something that was invented by Malachi Martin and has been copied by conspiracy theorists.

The only occurence of the term "Desposyni" I know of is in Julius Africanus letter to Aristides, ch. 5. However it does in no way confirm what M. Martin has written. In fact what he has written is contradicting itself and is contradicted by the extant sources. Quoting him is not a violation of copyright, as long as he is referenced as the author. But his writing is of no historical value, AFAIK.

Also, internet infidels is hardly a reliable website, hardly containing academic discussions.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 17:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I missed your post in all the "excitement". The fact that secondary sources are discussing the Desposyni is noteworthy, despite the limited information available from primary sources. Rather than dismiss Martin's POV, I would rather bring in as many contrasting sources as possible to make the article NPOV. Let's just follow the evidence and go where it leads us. Please keep in mind as we go forward that we are allowed to "state" primary sources but not interpret them. That is one of the biggest problems with this article. Some editors can't resist launching into exegesis of gospel passages. Unfortunately, that is original research. We need to find secondary sources to do that for us. I didn't mean to imply that Internet Infidels is a reliable source. I just mentioned it as a thought starter. Cheers. :0) Ovadyah 15:10, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure about this. If Martin writes a book presenting fantasies about the Deposyni, about a Joses and a meeting with the Pope or the Emperor (all of this unknown from any sources) or that the Deposyni had a monopoly on church government (contrary to the sources) we cannot and should not include this as a valid historical perspective or interpretation because it is not.

You are raising the difficult issue of "undue weight", which I have struggled with on other articles. I recall Eisenman also mentioning this meeting with the Pope, although I thought it was at the end of the 2nd century. I will try to locate the reference when I have more time. From what I recall reading about the Desposyni, they did have a monopoly on what they regarded as the legitimate Church, and they saw the Pauline churches as apostate. I think the best way to resolve these discrepancies is to bring all these "sources" into the article. Ovadyah 16:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as the term is concerned, I still think about creating a "relatives of Jesus" article which systematically presents accurate information and interpretations in an NPOV manner - and by interpretations I mean all of them, not just the fringe dubious ones. Cheers, Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The way to NPOV is not to create separate, parallel articles. If you think the article is POV, then please work to improve it. However, imho, you don't fix an article by deleting everything that conflicts with your own POV. If there is a controversy, an article is made NPOV by bringing in alternative viewpoints from verifiable secondary sources. Ovadyah 16:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I never suggested creating a separate article but one that replaces this. One could of course also call this overhauling and renaming this article, as frankly the title sucks big time.

Also I never suggested deleting all I disagreed with - what I want is to groom the horse not from the tail but from the head and that is not beginning by highlighting the fringe.

As for Mr Martin - if he invents something out of thin air I don't think we should give it publicity. It's not a matter of disagreement but of non-verifiability. I could write a book about Caesar being fathered by aliens because I say so - it wouldn't be included here even if it sold millions. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 20:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I am opposed to changing the title of the article, since Desposyni has a specific historical meaning. However, adding "relatives of Jesus" as a redirect is fine. I can't argue with the proposition of presenting the "majority" view, whatever that is. It's up to a motivated editor to find verifiable secondary sources that advocate this view. However, exegesis or sermonettes by an editor are not an acceptable substitute. Verifiability of secondary sources is a Wiki requirement, but it's not a requirement for a secondary source to verify all their opinions with primary sources. They are entitled to speculate, while editors are required to merely report. Again, the criterion of undue weight under NPOV policy is a tough one, since another editor could argue that removal of the same source is POV supression. Ovadyah 21:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. "Desposyni" is not a common term for the relatives of Jesus, except in certain fringe literature. As we saw above, it actually only appears once in the sources.

I also disagree with you on verifiability and "secondary sources" - if they are mere speculation than they are not scholarly at all and should either not be used or presented only with the disclaimer that it's speculation. Under the circumstances Anne Catherine Emmerich would be a more reliable source than Mr Martin. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 06:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Desposyni is widely understood as a term for Jesus' relatives. When it Google it, I see over 10,000 hits. How often it appears in the primary literature is irrelevant. And "fringe" is in the eye of the beholder, like your POV. I also disagree with you on your definitions of verifiability and secondary sources. Unless an entire secondary source is not verifiable, then it is verifiable. An author is entitled to summarize findings without providing detailed references. It happens all the time in popular works. An author is also entitled to speculate without disclaiming, "Now I am speculating". As an editor, I prefer to report an author's speculations as just that. However, I have been reminded frequently in discussions on other articles that this is not a requirement. If you think Martin is so "spurious", why have you not countered his "fringe" position with multiple mainstream references from the scholarly sources that you claim to study? Ovadyah 12:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Googling is not a proper way of finding out what is the best term. You know best that the Internet is fully of intellectual riff-raff. Fringe is no in the eye of the beholder but clearly detectable by looking at the scholarly consensus on an issue.

At least regarding history, it is like this: If an author doesn't mention his sources, one cannot take his supposed finding serious. Of course an author is free to speculate what might happen in the future or even what might have happened in the past - but he is not free to claim that every church was governed by Desposyni" (contrary to all sources) and that a man called Joses (of whom noone every heard a thing) met with Pope Silvester (a meeting unknown to history). That's not speculation but inventing history.

Why have I not countered it? Because my time is limited and, granted, this issue is not exactly my greatest expertise. But I will in time. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 19:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

More on Jesus' Descendants

Outbursts of religious piety may be laudable in other forums, but they have no place on Wikipedia. However well intentioned, they are still original research. Tabor is a legitimate secondary source, and the article is reporting the facts as he sees them. Reporting the opposing POV of other verifiable secondary sources is fine. Modifying Tabor's views to something he does not in fact believe is misleading at best. Ovadyah 00:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Tabor is a legitmate secondary source for his ideas, not for the facts as his interpretation is dubios. The article should not "report the facts as he sees it" but the facts as they are and his view as it is (but I am sure that that is what you meant).

Also "Outbursts of religious piety" have a place on Wikipedia - on user pages, on talk pages and, if the subject of the article, in articles too, as long as the article conforms to all our policies. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:46, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

You are mistaken. On your own user page, you can say what you like. However, talk pages are supposed to be used for discussing improvements to an article, not for discussing the subject of the article. An "outburst", pious or otherwise, is not permitted in an article because it is original research, if not outright vandalism. Please reread the Wiki policy on original research. Ovadyah 16:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

And, Oyadyah, you shouldn't call these editors bigots. Not only because it is a personal attack but because it is not accurate. The edits are mistaken for sure as they falsify what Tabor says but they are not bigotry. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:50, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I stand by my remarks, and note that an admin temporarily locked the article to discourage further acts of vandalism. :0) Ovadyah 16:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes such outbursts can serve the aim of improving the article and sometimes they don't. In any case, a certain flexible room should be given. No need to shout everything down. I agree with you about OR (but not about vandalism - that is something different, though deplorable too) but while I am rereading you should definitely read WP:NPA, as it is not optional. An admin locking the page has nothing to do with it as he didn't call them names - you did. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 20:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Repeated falsification of Tabor's views by several IP's was judged by an admin to be vandalism. That is why the article was locked. Admins don't lock articles for violations of OR. I have reread WP:NPA. I agree with you that I should not have called the IPs religious bigots. Rather, I should have said that their vandalism was religious bigotry, because they knowingly falsified a secondary source and replaced it with their own theological POV. Ovadyah 21:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you should have called their actions "vandalism". Bigotry is something different. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 06:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The vandalism was the repeated nature of their actions, despite repeated requests to stop. That is all I intend to say about the subject. I really don't care whether you agree or not. Ovadyah 12:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it was vandalism. But it was not bigotry.

I really don't care whether you care about my agreeing or disagreeing. But I do care that wiki rules are followed. If I see you throwing around personal attacks again I will report it. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 19:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm just quaking in my boots. Ovadyah 20:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

You should take wiki rules seriously. Otherwise there is no room for you in this community. Ignoring the rules would make you no better than the people you criticized. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 12:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Sounds like a threat to me and a personal attack. I suggest you read WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA yourself before you cast stones at other editors. :0) Ovadyah 15:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds funny, given the content of my "threat" - that you desist from personal attacks. I so far have neither attacked you personally. Under your premises, your "go and read ..." is a threat too. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 07:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Joseph has no children according to Tabor.

The diagram accredited to James Tabor is incorrect, in that all the children credited to Mary and Joseph are actually the children of Mary and Clophas (a Levirate marriage).--Michael C. Price ^talk 11:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Imho, it's a reasonable hypothesis. Jesus would have been referred to in Jewish terms as a "mamzer", which most people take to mean a bastard, but is really closer to "parentage of unknown origin". It means that no adult male can stand up and vouch for his parentage, which would be the case if Joseph were deceased. Another possibility which ties into the Pantera suggestion is that "Joseph" is a synonym for a Northern Israelite (as in son of Joseph), which could mean a Galilean or a Samaritan. It's interesting (to me at least) that when Jesus is accused of being a Samaritan in the Gospel of John, he never bothers to refute that charge, although he rebutts all the other accusations. And then of course we have the parable of the good Samaritan. Either way, Clophas could assume the parental responsibility through a Levirate marriage.

BTW, unless Tabor published the present diagram, it should probably still be considered a synthesis. Ovadyah 23:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Samaritan hypothesis. Diagrams are exempt from the original research rule. It's OK to construct a graphic, as long as you have a source for the information -- and in this case we have Tabor. --Michael C. Price ^talk 07:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

This is rubbish! There is no historical basis for this. Jesus' genealogy is very well known.131.251.0.7 (talk) 13:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

John The Baptist

Was not related to Jesus. Only the Gospel Luke contains this fabrication. The Christianity articles on Wikipedia are so infected with the tendency to regard the Bible as unqualified historical truth (though we use scholarship to determine where this is possible) is galling. Get your act together, Wikipedians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.113.26 (talk) 01:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I revert this. We have a source for the relationship, even if you do not like it (which is OR). Str1977 ^(talk) 22:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Who was that Guy? All of the Desposyni come from Mary's side of the family and were all Kohenim just like John the Baptist. They were only descendants of David in the same way that the Hasmoneans were, i.e. by marriage.131.251.0.7 (talk) 13:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Special pleading aside, the whole section needs to be referenced by verifiable secondary sources. Ovadyah (talk) 16:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

pop culture

These sections always bug me. There has been almost a couple thousand years worth of culture since the beginning of this subject, so a more accurate name for the final section in this article would be In popular culture of the late 1990's to the early 2000's in English speaking parts of the Western hemisphere. Which is ridiculous. Can I dump it?--Jzeise (talk) 01:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)