Talk:Halloween

Music

I removed the Music section of the article because it contained a number of errors, was un-sourced, and was not in any way cyclopedic. Perhaps a sourced comment about halloween music could be added along with comments about haunted houses or costume sales? MorbidAnatomy (talk) 21:22, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Celebrated where?

Where is the Halloween celebrated? In Britain? Or also in other places? The first sentence should be complemented. (I am Hungarian and for me it's not evident where people celebrate Halloween.) --Szipucsu (talk) 18:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Modern Halloween is largely a product of American pop culture and is only celebrated there on a large scale. When I was a kid in 1960s Britain nobody had heard of Halloween. Nowadays kids go from door to door, demanding money with menaces and dressed in 'scary' costumes. Wall-Mart and their international subsidiaries push Halloween hard, encouraging poorly educated parents to buy paraphernalia for their children. It's one of the less attractive examples of American cultural imperialism. (Sorry, I've had a hard day.) --80.176.142.11 (talk) 00:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Religious context

I find this section to be very vague and full of generalizations. I know that there are varying views, but there are too many times where "many" or "most" are used with zero substantiation. Anybody up to tackling this to make it more concise?142.221.110.4 (talk) 02:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

You Carve Pumpkins, Not Jack-o-lanterns

You carve a pumpkin to get a Jack-o-lantern. I propose changing it. Logrolls (talk) 16:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The festival that became Halloween in North America is not just an Irish festival

I noticed that this article slants a little too much towards the Irish influences in the cultural expansion of the festival of Halloween to America and beyond. The festival although celtic in origin has been celebrated throughout these islands and pre-dates all the countries. Still the festival that became Halloween in America has other influences and

The festival started well before the Irish famine and is noted in 1820, moreover every group (not just Irish, but Scottish, English, Welsh as well as German and Mexicans and Spanish) had an occult tradition that was incorporated into the tradition of Halloween. Also the Scottish and Irish and German influences in Appalachia are huge as cited in. Halloween: An American Holiday, an American History By Lesley Pratt Bannatyne

All saints day immigrated to America as an Irish and Scottish festival and evolved into a large scale festival by the early 20th century. Halloween: From Pagan Ritual to Party Night By Nicholas Rogers

Halloween traditions were taken by the Scots and Irish to America The Encyclopaedia Americana Volume 13 by Grolier Incorporated

The custom we celebrate in North America has its origins in the lands of Celtic Ireland, Britain…halloween traditions were brought to America by the English, Irish and Scottish. Halloween By Robert A. McCracken, Diana Colquhoun

I will edit accordingly if no objections Old man of the wood (talk) 15:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

At this time the claim is sourced that it was the Irish who introduced it to the USA. Your sources seem to disprove that source, I would sugest that something like "although often regarded as an Irish tradition (old source) others (one of the new sources) claim it was brought over by the Enlish or Scots, as well as the Irish (a couple of other sources)."Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

The article also seems very slanted towards North American observance, when this tradition originates (and is still celebrated) elsewhere. --John (talk) 15:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

It was always robustly celebrated in Ireland, from the old Irish tradition of Samhain. It was brought to USA by Irish people fleeing the famine, that much is certain. From my reading it was not celebrated in England or Scotland, although it would be a calender day, and Guy Faulks was the big event there for some hundreds of years, Nov 6th. For those reasons it never reached Australia, South Africa, or New Zealand until this last few years. Tfz 00:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

It was a huge deal when I was growing up in Scotland in the 1970s. Guy Fawkes Night (November 5) was only celebrated by one side of the sectarian divide, for reasons that are obvious. But everybody dressed up and went out guising. --John (talk) 00:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The 19th century I meant. Scotland like England was very protestant up until then, and it was a no no. Certainly wasn't celebrated in England in 1970s when I lived there until I was 14. It was all Guy Fawkes then. Tfz 01:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Tfz, you’ll find that the festival which has its roots in pre-Christian northern Europe that is called Samhain was also robustly practiced in Scotland as well as the isle of Mann for centuries as well and like Ireland but that its origins are lost in the mists of time. It was a time when the old gods were worshiped in whatever form they took in these islands. The name may be gaelic but the harvest festival was important to all peoples especially to the pre-industrial gael and brythonic celts in Britain and the Island of Ireland. Even the name Samhain shows similarities to the Gallic French word Samonios which was held as a harvest festival at the same time and will have a common etymology.

I can understand what you’re saying about the reformation discouraging Halloween in Scotland. But into pre-history to the industrial revolution the people of Scotland like the people of Ireland celebrated Halloween and it never stopped due to the reformation. Nor was the fifth of November supplanted as the festival of choice in the 19th century over Halloween by the British government in Scotland. The traditions still were held strong in villages, kirks and communities throughout Scotland from the worship of the pagan spirit Seonaidh in Lewis to the samhnag and fires of Perthshire and the pagan origins of the fontingall fires and Càrn na Marbh as well as other festivals to celibrate throughout the country. As an example to back this up look at the following.

…There is no evidence that the state sponsored fifth displaced or radically altered the conventions of Halloween….the Scottish kirk took a pragmatic view attitude towards seasonal reveals that were important to the life-cycle and rites of passage of local communities especially where it anticipated real difficulty in curbing them. Resulting in Halloween co-existing indeed vie with the Fifth as a night of prankish fun.

The eve of all souls was quintessentially considered the more Scottish of the two festivals…

…In Scotland the festival is known as Samhain and many of these rituals are directly linked to the old celtic sagas….

The blending of pagan and Christian belief was also reflected in the Scottish customs.

The stations of the sun: a history of the ritual year in Britain By Ronald Hutton

Also I posted as Old man of the forest, but lost my password and will use this name just to confirm. Of the forest (talk) 13:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

No OR please,. From the Chronical of Celttic folk customs Section headings on Halloweeen, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland(some ancient halloween customs observed up untill the 1900's), Wales (again some ancient traditions were still in use up till the end of the 19thC), Brittany. In a dictioanry of British folk customs it notes that Guy Fawkes night abosrbed many of Englands cutoms But also notes that in some areas there are still some surviving folk customs associated with helloween. So it is not true to say its an Irish traddition, or that it was more robuslty celebrated. It was an ancient Celtic festival celebrated by all with great ronbustness save the english (who instead moved it to celebration of one of the worlds first terrorist attacks).Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

And why not Australia and New Zealand, who both boast very major English and Scottish influence, the festival didn't exist there until brought from America. The Gaels from Ireland brought many customs to Scotland including the Scottish Gaelic Language, but the question here is not about the ancient origins and culture. Neither can we appropriate old Irish customs like Samhain, Bealtaine etc. The substantive point is that the USA tradition was brought over by Irish immigrants fleeing the Great Famine, from the 1840s onward, and that's certainly the case. Tfz 14:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The two books I used only cover eithere Britain or the lands of the Celts (they do not men tion the USA either). http://www.halloween-australia.com/halloween-history.php has this to say "Trick-or-treating apparently partly comes from the English medieval practice of "souling" odd they dont attribute it to the USA if they inported it from there. By the way Austraila also had a large Irish imigration too. It also should be ppointed oout that by the time Australia (and New Zeeland were colonised Guy Fawks night had already taken over from Helloween in Britain.Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

That's the point I was making, 'All Souls Day' being a Roman Catholic festival, wasn't celebrated by Protestantism, so the festival if celebrated died out with Reformation and the turning away from Catholic Fest Days. Catholic Ireland kept it alive, and it was them and their version that the USA holds today. No doubt some of the customs have changed this last hundred years. Souling is a pan European practice, and it is also documented as part of Halloween in Ireland for several hundred years, it's not unique. Tfz 14:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I see what you’re trying to say about All Saints Day being perceived by protestant communities in Scotland (and therefore by association in Ireland too) as being phased out as I dare to say it by them as “popish” saint worship. However this is not and was not the case. The practice of the tradition of Halloween was encouraged as being an Ulster-Scottish and Scottish tradition. In fact the Scots Protestants clung to Halloween in Scotland as a cultural identifier and in Ulster as seen in an accounts bellow;

From 1770-1840; …The observance of Halloween is a distinguishing characteristic of the Ulster-Scots. Feasting and celebration was considered appropriate as harvest had been gathered in and cattle had returned from summer grazing… The shaping of Ulster Presbyterian belief and practice, 1770-1840 By Andrew R. Holmes.

…Halloween in Northern Ireland has English, Irish and Scottish elements in a creative amalgam of customs that form a unique celebration… The hallowed eve: dimensions of culture in a calendar festival in Northern Ireland By Jack Santino

And here in the following publication; …In 1799 a play entitled a “Scottish Spectacle” in the protestant borders was commissioned with Halloween themes to add atmosphere of otherworldliness. Influenced by the publication of the Burns poem “Halloween” which was inspired by the act of union in 1707 as many Scots feared a loss of cultural identity. Burns set to boister Scottish identity and pride with a poem in 1786 detailing the Scottish traditions of Halloween…

…By 1788 American booksellers had the book…and was read especially passionately by ex-patriot Scots in America and Canada where his poetry came to stand for Scotland before the act of union. The Scottishness of Halloween…on both sides of the atlantic inspired many poems....

Even a tale called “The Tale of The Ferry House: A Scottish Tale of Halloween” by John Galt published in 1834, so the Halloween culture and significance is a part of Scottish culture protestant or otherwise and well into the 19th century. A Halloween Reader: Poems, Play and stories of Halloween Past. By Leslie Pratt Bannatyne.

The following quote will be of interest and relevant to this discussion in America from the 18th century;

…The southern states were predominantly settled by the Scots-Irish (themselves who are protestant) and the English (who are protestant) and these traditions influenced the holiday of Halloween in America....

…The English shared a common celtic-folk heritage as their neighbours in the British isles…

More strikingly that;

…The culture of Voudon or Voodoo was influential in the formation of the modern holiday in the south.

As well as the Scottish, Irish, Scots-irish and German protestant influences to the modern Halloween tradition…

So Halloween according to Bannatyne does not originate from an exclusively Catholic Irish tradition, the American festival changed and adapted due to various Catholic, Irish Catholic, Scots-Irish protestant, Scots, English protestant, German protestant traditions and those of African Vudon (voodoo) influences. Just like America it was a melting pot of ideas that formed the modern holiday.

Or this one;

Halloween is not time for division in sectarian politics, and it was celebrated to bring groups together. In Canada the Scots societies observed Halloween with annual concerts and celebrated their Scottishness in the festival….(no doubt on the back of the Burns poem in 1786).

…Irish men and women and the persistent numbers of Scots as well ensured the festival would serve as a marker for ethnic identity…

…In 1864 trouble faired as the Orange order in Canada celebrated the holiday (again another protestant fraternal organisation in north America celebrated the festival of Halloween in 1860s)…

Halloween from Pagan Ritual To Party Night by Nicholas Rodgers. Ch 3. Coming over; Halloween in north America

The Scots and English were not culturally bereft of a Halloween tradition because they are protestant, they had their own folk culture rooted in the celtic practices of the British Isles that were pagan in origin and part of the Halloween tradition in writing and publication innthe 18th and 19th centuries and the church could never fully stamp them out. Protestants embraced the holiday and exported it to the states before the great Famine or Scottish Highland Famine. That saw 2 million irish and 1.7 million scots emigrate due to hunger. I think you will have to have some printed references to back up your claim the Irish Catholics are the sole contributors to the American Halloween tradition and culture. But it appears that such a view is contested. Regards. Of the forest (talk) 23:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

modern halloween costumes are also very untraditional with carachters from television and movies costume possibilities are endless in our time, with all the stores and boutiques, you can find Halloween costumes almost anywhere. :-)