Talk:Twelfth Night (holiday)

When is it?

Stupid question I know but is it the 5th or the 6th? In my culture i.e. that of a Nothern Britain (christian/agnostic), its the 6th, but please can we have some confirmation? Medscin 19:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It's the 5th, which is the 12th day counting from Christmas, with Christmas as the first day. The Epiphany has its own Octave, and the day after that Octave begins a new season liturgy-wise (though Christmas as a part of the larger liturgical cycle and as a "spiritual season" doesn't end until Candlemas). This page explains things: http://www.fisheaters DOT com/customschristmas1.html (and these pages explain Twelfth Night and the Epiphany: http://www.fisheaters DOT com/epiphanyeve.html and http://www.fisheaters DOT com/customschristmas8.html ) TigerLille 21:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I maintain (as I have maintained at the Twelve Days of Christmas discussion) that the Twelve Days are Dec 26 - Jan 6 inclusive and that Twelfth Night is January 6 and not the 5th, and should thus be removed from the link on January 5 which currently and confusingly says "The eleventh day of Christmas in Western Christianity, and the Twelfth Night of Christmas in Western Christianity", However, I will not do so as I believe some discussion is required first. As I see it, the solution depends on whether Twelfth Night celebrations were made on January 5th or 6th, and I note that celebrations were held on both Twelfth-Night Eve (Jan 5) and Twelfth Night (Jan 6), but the latter were the main ones. The best sources I know to quote are Sir James Frazer, William Hone and Robert Chambers, all expert 19th-century British folklorists. Frazer says "The last of the mystic twelve days is Epiphany or Twelfth Night", and Epiphany is January 6 -- I know some will say it began on the Eve but that was called Twelfth-Night Eve or Epiphany Eve and had different festivities. Hone says the Twelfth Night celebrations were on the night of January 6 (and the lesser ones on January 5 were called Twelfth-Night Eve) and Chambers also asserts that although there were some apparently minor "rustic" festivals in England on January 5 (Twelfth-Night Eve), the main Twelfth Night festivities were on the next night, ie, the night of Twelfth Day (January 6). I suggest that unless someone betters these sources within a reasonable amount of time, any Wikipedian should make the changes required on the various pages. With respect, TigerLille, I think DOT com/epiphanyeve.html fisheaters's statement "The Eve of the Feast of the Epiphany is the twelfth day of Christmas" is not correct, based on the three prominent folklorists I refer to above. Alpheus 01:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

• And I maintain that it's not "the 26th through the 6th", it's "the evening of the 25th through and/or including the evening of the 6th". Wahkeenah 01:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
• It's the fifth. D. Wo. 05:25, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
  • What, exactly, is the 5th??? Wahkeenah 05:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Not to start a US/UK arguement, I think the American's "celebrate" twelfth night on the 5/1 hence the reasons its stated as this, Wikipedia AFAIK an American based website, while us Brits "celebrate" it on the 6/1, though thats just a guess, the Collins Dictionary states it as being "evening of the 6th Jan.: also of 5th Jan

and PS, I really didn't want to start a huge arguement, sorry! Medscin 17:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Dunno if this makes more sense but it's how we do it in our household:

Today, the Twelfth Night after Christmas means the day(!) we take down the decorations. Twelfth Night is the evening of the 5th January and all day of 6th January. It was common in the olden days to start a special day at 6pm the previous evening and to have the Night or Eve coming before the Day, as in Christmas Eve or Night coming before Christmas Day and New Year's Eve before New Year's Day. The actual date for Twelfth Night has caused much confusion for years and still does today. The fact that Twelfth Night is also part of Twelfth Day adds to the confusion.Source ie 12th night starts on the 5th and finishes on the 6th, which is when you take your decs down. adamsan 21:38, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

What the Oxford English Dictionary says (under 'Twelfth-night') is: 'The evening before Twelfth-day, formerly observed as a time of merry-making.' Under 'Twelfth-day', it says: 'The twelfth day after Christmas; the sixth of January, on which the festival of the Epiphany is celebrated; formerly observed as the closing day of the Christmas festivities.' Sdoerr (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The way I see it is this: twelfth night is the 5th but 13 is unlucky. so we should have the decorations down by the thirteenth night. Thats why people take their decorations down on the 6th (before the night of the 13th). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.109.156 (talk) 22:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Just to add my two-penn'orth. There is obviously no right answer since evidence exists for both. By a purely mechanical means of calculation, starting Christmas at midnight on 24th/25th December, and supposing the first night was 25th/26th, one would think that there could be no doubt that 5th/6th was Twelfth Night. (Supposing that festivals were considered to start the evening before makes things worse: first night is 24th/25th and Twelfth Night would be 4th/5th Jan, which no-one maintains.) But these things are not always purely rationally decided. An earlier authority even than those cited by Alpheus is Samuel Pepys[1]. He refers to the evenings of various 6ths of January as Twelfth Night; records seeing Shakespeare's play Twelfth Night on 6th January 1663 and on January 6th 1665 writes:

To my office again, being pretty well reconciled to my wife, which I did desire to be, because she had designed much mirthe to-day to end Christmas with among her servants. At night home, being twelfenight, and there chose my piece of cake, but went up to my viall, and then to bed, leaving my wife and people up at their sports, which they continue till morning, not coming to bed at all.

He never appears to be up to much on the evening of 5th January. Unequivocally, I think, Epiphany is called Twelfth Day but different dictionaries give, in their definitions, differing priority in identifying Twelfth Night as the Eve of Epiphany (night of 5/6)or to the night of Epiphany itself (6/7). I think the main article ought to reflect the fact that opinion and practice has varied. Galatian (talk) 11:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

What needs to be mentioned here is that in the Medieval Era, a day (a 24-hour period) began at sunset. In other words, the "evening" began the day (hence "eve" means coming before), not ended it. Thus, the "evening" of December 25 in Medieval-speak is what we today would call the evening of December 24/25, or "Christmas Eve". I side with those who hold that "Twelfth Night" is the evening before the day of January 5 (Jan. 4/5), not the evening after it. And that the Epiphany began on what today we would call the evening of Jan. 5/6. — Walloon (talk) 05:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I would not presume to attempt to resolve this matter, but I have at least attempted to capture the current undoubted confusion in the article introduction. I do not think it is "unequivocal" that Epiphany is called Twelfth Day, and if you count Christmas Day as the first day then Epiphany is NOT Twelfth Day. Sources do seem to be largely agreed that Twelfth Night precedes Twelfth Day as Walloon points out. We need to keep this factual, not POV. It is fact that there is confusion (I've added a citation of a source to demonstrate this). If anyone can add further facts as to which interpretation is "correct" and/or historically justified and/or meaningful, please do. But the confusion certainly exists regardless, so should continue to be acknowledged in the article. Mooncow (talk) 02:34, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

In particular, a good authoritative source to confirm that the twelve days should start AFTER Christmas Day (which I think is the correct interpretation), not ON Christmas Day, would be very helpful. If I find one, I will add it myself. Mooncow (talk) 02:00, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Yule

There is also a Twelfth Night of Yule which is still celebrated by Scandinavian/Germanic countries (mostly Christianized) and Germanic Neopagans. This falls on January 31st opposite of the first night of Yule called Mother Night which is the solstice. I propose that this be cited and included in the article or possibly seperated in to two articles Twelfth Night (Christmas) and Twelfth Night (Yule).99.54.188.157 (talk) 08:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

This page needs a major cleanup -- intro is muddled and contradictory, few refs, failure to explain about which date is which. Help!

I'm afraid we have some POV issues going on here. Until and if they're resolved, that's just how it's going to be. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

One of the contradictions is One source of this confusion is the Medieval custom of starting each new day at sunset, so that Twelfth Night precedes Twelfth Day which would mean that Twelfth Night would be the evening of the 4th, which would be eve of the 5th. Twelve days after the 25th. It in no way explains the 6th. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:35, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No move Parsecboy (talk) 14:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Twelfth Night (holiday) → Twelfth Night — This disambiguation is not required, this article should be moved to Twelfth Night, and the article on the play should either be moved to Twelfth Night, Or What You Will or Twelfth Night (Shakespeare play) or something like that. — ViperSnake151 15:04, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose. When someone says "Twelfth Night" to me, I think of the Shakespeare play. I think that is primary use. Sam⁵ (talk) 17:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. I, too, think of Shakespeare. Leave the primary disambiguation there. Gene Nygaard (talk) 17:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support. I think it is more 'encyclopædic' for Twelfth Night (the day/evening) to be the primary use and for Twelfth Night Or What You Will, a play named after the day, to be listed as a secondary use. 80.176.88.21 (talk) 18:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

It should be based on what people are most likely to link to, or to be looking for when it is entered in the search box. And no, before you try to claim a bunch of links going to the holiday, all of those links due solely to other articles sharing that god-awful ugly, humongous "Christmas" navigation template do not count. Gene Nygaard (talk) 20:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose a dab page would be more likely than moving this page. 76.66.198.171 (talk) 04:47, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - The Shakespeare play looks like the primary use. --DAJF (talk) 09:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. The _primary_ reference for "Twelfth Night" is the play. The primary _feast_ is Epiphany, January 6th - these days, January 5th is just that. Tevildo (talk) 23:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The play is the thing. --Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 23:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.