Talk:Ramot, East Jerusalem

Reason why there's no Ramot 05

Is the reason given in this article really true? (It was submitted by an anonymous user.) I was under the impression that land was allocated for all six Ramots, but they skipped 05 in favor of building 06. Yoninah 22:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't sound right--there's a Katamon Heh. I believe they do skip 7, Zayin, though--there's a Katamon Vav and a Katamon Tet, but no Zayin. Alexisr 04:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Query

Any special reason that the 'settlement' issue should be once in the first paragraph and another two times in the second paragraph? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

redundancy in the lead

the lead dedicates an entire para to the designation as a settlement. there's no need to push that pov into the first sentence as well. NoCal100 (talk) 04:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

The lead currently reads as follows:

Ramot (Template:Lang-he-n, lit. Heights), also known as Ramot Alon (Hebrew: רמות אלון, lit. Alon Heights) is one of the largest Israeli settlements and neighborhoods in Jerusalem, with about 40,000 residents. It is situated in the northwestern part of the city and divided into six sections, from Ramot 1, the oldest section, to Ramot 6, the newest section. Ramot 5 is the commercial center.

Because of its location east of the Green Line it is considered to be an illegal settlement by the International Community, though Israel disputes this and the United States also traditionally refrains from characterizing Israeli localities in East Jerusalem as settlements.

So the second paragraph discusses the view of the international community that it is an illegal settlement and the view of Israel and the US that it is not "illegal" or not a "settlement". The first sentence uses the terms "Israeli settlement" and "neighbourhood" side by side so as to respect WP:NPOV by presenting all significant viewpoints, even though the Israeli and US viewpoint is in the minority. That seems pretty darn fair to me. What's the issue again? Tiamut^talk 04:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

the issue is, as discussed at length in the centralized discussion on this topic (see next section) that "I am not aware of any body, including Palestinian bodies, that dispute the status of these places as neighborhoods. They merely argue that they are not part of Jerusalem, and add that they consider them to also be settlements. That is, everyone agrees that they are neighborhoods, but not everyone that there are settlements. This means that only the neighborhood designation should be in the lead sentence. Information that they are also considered settlements is notable, and should be given but not in the lead sentence." NoCal100 (talk) 04:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

"neighborhood" is not a POV, "settlement" is. something can be both a settlement and a neighborhood at the same time. If there was an antonym to the word settlement is might make sense to use settlement and the antonym, despite there being no mainstream sources that use the term settlement. But until there's an antonym to settlement it's a major POV violation to repeat these unsourced assertions. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Could you please provide sources that say that "settlement" is POV while "neighbourhood" is not? Quoting unsourced opinions selectively from the centralized discussion page or expressing your own opinions on the matter is not what I'm looking for. Tiamut^talk 05:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

the article already notes that Israel and the usa do not consider them a settlement, so obviously that terminology is pov.NoCal100 (talk) 05:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

That Israel and the US do not consider them to be settlements is their POV. That the international community considers them to be illegal settlements is their POV. Per WP:NPOV, we describe all significant POVs. Are you saying that the POV of Israel and the US (i.e. the minority POV) should be given predominance and the POV of the international community ignored? Tiamut^talk 05:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Neighborhood is not a POV just like other nouns like cow, watermelon, vagina, and glasses aren't POV terms. I'm not sure what you'r getting at. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:04, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand the relevance of your comment at all. Tiamut^talk 05:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I guess this is a result of me not really understanding your original comments, questioning whether "neighborhood" is not a POV term and "settlement" is a POV term. What part needs support, the lack of POV for "neighborhood" or the POV of "settlement"? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I still don't see the relevance of the comment. WP:NPOV does not proscribe expressing POVs. Rather, it encourages that all significant POVs be represented. I would argue that the POV of the international community that Ramot and other Israeli localities constructed in Jerusalem beyond the Green Line after 1967 are illegal settlements is a significant POV. The Israeli and American POV that they are neither illegal nor settlements is also a significant POV, albeit a minority one. Rather than advocating for the POV of the international community to stand alone in the introduction, I am for including the minority Israeli/American POV alongside the POV of the international community. I feel this is in line with WP:NPOV. Whether or not neighbourhood is a POV term or not remains largely irrelevant. Tiamut^talk 06:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, it looks like we were talking over each other. My point was that while I agree that two POV's should placed alongside each other, this is not occurring in this case. Let's put aside for a second the lack of solid sources for the term "settlement" and let's assume everything is amply sourced. You can't fairly say that the two POV's are placed alongside each other. In this scenario, we have a POV term (settlement) and a NPOV term (neighborhood). You would be right if "neighborhood" was an antonym to "settlement", but isn't. The word "settlement" connotes an anti-Israel POV but the word "neighborhood" does not connote and pro-Israel POV. It's just a plain noun that has no special meaning attached.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Brewcrewer, I'm going to unpack it for you again one more time. I've provided you below with two more sources (United Nations sources) which say that Ramot is a settlement. The UN, which represents the will of the international community, is clear is this designation. On the other hand, we have one source (Jerusalem Post) which says that the US and Israel do not use the word settlement to describe Israeli localities built beyond the Green Line after 1967, but instead use the word neighbourhood. Accordingly, in our lead, we mention both these positions.

There is no prohibition at Wikipedia against expressing a POV. WP:NPOV says we are to represent all significant POVs. All the significant POVs are represented in our current text. Your opinion that the word "settlement" connotes an anti-Israel POV is your own and is not supported by any reliable source that I have seen to date. Your opinion that "neighbourhood" as applied to Israeli localities built beyond the Green Line in Jerusalem after 1967 is not POV is also your own, not supported by any reliable sources that I have to date. Are we clear? Tiamut^talk 07:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut: We're not clear because - with all due respect - you contradict yourself from one sentence to the next and you conflate two separate issues.

1. Contradictions: In the post above your last post you state that "[i]n this scenario, we have a POV term (settlement) and a NPOV term (neighborhood)."["that the POV of the international community that Ramot and other Israeli localities constructed in Jerusalem beyond the Green Line after 1967 are illegal settlements is a significant POV] (empahsis added)^{modified--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)}. Additionally, in the latest post you assert that "[t]here is no prohibition at Wikipedia against expressing a POV. WP:NPOV says we are to represent all significant POVs. All the significant POVs are represented in our current text." Yet, in the next sentence you claim that "[Brewcrewer's ] opinion that the word "settlement" connotes an anti-Israel POV is your own and is not supported by any reliable source that I have seen to date." So which one is it? Is the word "settlement" a POV term or a NPOV term?
2. Issue conflation: Up until your last post, the issue in this discussion was the juxtaposition and redundancy of the word "settlement" vs. "neighborhood." The discussion did not involve the support of either terms in reliable sources. That discussion is taking place in the two sections below and there's no reason to confuse things by bringing that issue up here.

With respect, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

(Sigh) A very very big one ... please read WP:NPOV from back to front and front to back again. There is no contradiction in my paraphrase of it. NPOV means that all significant POVs are represented. Everything is a POV. There are no neutral positions. We achieve neutrality by juxtaposing the different POVs against one another. In this case, that means using the term "settlement" and its definition as "illegal", which is the POV held by the majority of the international community. It also means using the term "neighborhood" explaining that this is preferred by Israel and the US who object to using the term "settlement" and contest the claim of illegality. Though these claims are not held equally and the POV of the international community is the majority one and the POV of Israel/US a minority one, we still include the Israel/US terms because they are a significant minrotiy viewpoint. We do not however, ignore the majority held viewpoint so as not to offend the minority POV who doesn't like those terms to be used. Capisce? Tiamut^talk 16:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut: While your current explanation might be in line with WP policy, it does not relate to the confusing nature of this discussion, which as outlined above involves contradictions of your stance. In any case, before we go forward with this discussion can I get you on record to say that you believe that the term "settlement" is a POV term? In a post above you denied that "settlement" is a POV term. Thanks, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

And PS Brewcrewer, in point #1 you attribute this quote to me: "In this scenario, we have a POV term (settlement) and a NPOV term (neighborhood)." I did not say that. You did. Tiamut^talk 16:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Fixed that. Thanks for pointing that out :) --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

US government position

I'm not sure whether this really matters much but the phrase "United States also traditionally refrains from characterizing Israeli localities in East Jerusalem as settlements" caught my eye. Is that really the case ? Have the US gov said that ? The US Department of State has documents which use the term "settlements" even when talking about East Jerusalem. It doesn't seem to be a word they refrain from using presumably because it doesn't imply anything about their position on legality or final status. They don't appear to distinguish between 'neighbourhoods' and 'settlements'. They simply consistently say 'settlements'. For example, see the 'Background and U.S. Position' for item 3. Jerusalem in Resolutions Related to Israel Opposed by the United States or this Congressional Research Service report. Perhaps the subtle details of linguistic displomacy are lost on me. It would be nice to have a US gov statement that supported the "traditionally refrains from characterizing" statement. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

It's more or less a direct quote from here.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 12:45, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, one Israel based RS. That's why I think it would be nice to have something sourced from an RS quoting the US gov speaking for themselves. I genuinely have no idea whether the "traditionally refrains from characterizing" statement is an accurate description. Sean.hoyland - talk 13:02, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, but this is something that the US (or any government for that matter) would not take publicly and explicitly.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 13:50, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Centralized discussion as applied to specific articles

A perusal of Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Jewish Neighborhoods versus Settlements of Jerusalem indicates that there was no consensus to call these neighborhoods as settlements. As the discussion manifests, the problem with calling these neighborhoods as settlements is that no reliable sources use that term settlements in reference to these neighborhoods. There are some partisan sources that use term settlement, but this term as applied to these neighborhoods has never picked up by mainstream and neutral reliable sources. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the consensus to which you point. In this article, the illegal status of Ramot and its designation as a settlement are attested to in the sources cited to the Foundation for Middle East Peace (FMEP). In the FMEP2 citation, they cite an EU report which states this very clearly. Are you saying that the FMEP is not a WP:RS or that EU is not an RS on this issue? Tiamut^talk 04:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

You must have just skimmed my comment because I never pointed to a consensus, but pointed to a lack of consensus, which is clearly apparent at that talk page. The FMEP is an advocacy group, not a mainstream source. One advocacy group's terminology, when not used by mainstream sources, does not decide terminology in Wikipedia articles. Additionally, the source this article uses as a source for the term settlement makes no mention of Ramot.[1]--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:11, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes you're right. I did only skim your comment. My bad. That does not change the main point, which is that the source I cited does indicate that Ramot is considered an illegal settlement. While the FMEP source that was already listed in the article and which you linked to above does not mention Ramot by name, the second FMEP source does. Accordingly (and thanks to you for pointing this out) I have removed the first FMEP source in this edit, leaving in only the second one. Please note that the terminology is not that of the FMEP but of the European Union whose report is referenced by the FMEP. If the issue is that you would like to see more sources, they can be provided. Tiamut^talk 05:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Not a problem. Unlike other editors, atleast you're skimming my comments :) While the second link does mention Ramot within the context of a "settlement bloc", it does not satisfy inclusion requirements. More pertinent are mainstream reliable sources, which never use the term "settlement" in the context of these Jerusalem neighborhoods, but use the term "neighborhood." Sources like NY Times and LA Times always use the term settlement when describing a neighborhood in Judea and Samaria that is not part of Jerusalem. However, both of these sources [2] [3] conspicuously use the term neighborhood when describing Ramot. These mainstream sources should be followed, not advocacy groups like the FMEP or the ADL.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

1. Hi. I don't really understand how the FMEP source "does not satisfy inclusion requirements." What inclusion requirements are you referring to which would disallow the FMEP source and the EU report it references?
2. Its unsurprising that American newspapers do not use the word "settlement". The Jpost article cited in the article already notes that the US has traditionally refrained from using that word to describe Israeli localities in Jerusalem. That American newspapers reflect the terminology used by their politcians is no big surprise.
3. At Wikipedia we write from a worldwide perspective and not an American or Israeli point of view exclusively. For a reflection of the views of the international community on this matter the most ideal sources would be United Nations sources. The United Nations Division for Palestinian Rights calls Ramot ["the "Ramot" settlement" and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UNOCHA) calls it "Ramot settlement (Jerusalem)". These are high quality reliable sources that reflect the POV of the international community on this subject. Do you have UN sources that use the term neighbourhood instead? Tiamut^talk 06:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut:

1. It does not satisfy the inclusion requirements because WP:RS gives precedence to the terms used by mainstream news organizations versus the terms used by so-called human rights advocacy groups.
2. American newspapers follow whatever term American politicians use? Puh-lease. America has the greatest history of newspapers being critical of politicians.
3. You're correct. We do need a worldwide prospective. While the NY Times has an international flavor, we would need more sources. However, we're an English-language encyclopedia and the issue is a fine tuned distinction in the English language. It would be most difficult to find a reliable source that discusses this issue outside of the US and GB. I guess we should look through British sources to see how they describe the area. But as noted earlier, newspapers come before advocacy organizations.

Best, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

The United Nations is not an advocacy organization. It is a body that is representative of he will of the international community. If you think its not a reliable source, I encourage to ask for other opinions at the reliable sources noticeboard. But I assure you that it is. Tiamut^talk 06:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I never said that the UN is an unreliable source (Tiamut: are you skimming again? :)) I merely said that the terms used by mainstream, neutral, English-language sources are given precedent to other organizations. I'm quite confident this would be concurred with at the RS Noticeboard. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

If that's what you believe, I suggest you post to the reliable sources board to find out if others share your opinion. I believe that doing so will help us in moving this discussion forward. Tiamut^talk 07:04, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

By the way, you seem to be implying that the UN is not a mainstream, neutral, English-language source. I'm quite sure that is not what you meant to imply. In any case, I'm going to post at the reliable sources noticeboard to ask them whether they think that the UN constitutes a reliable source for the purposes of this discussion. Any concerns or clarifications you would like to make regarding your position can be made there when you come back. Tiamut^talk 08:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

The link to the discussion is here. Tiamut^talk 08:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, I've commented there. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Mainstream as mainstream gets

Thanks to NSH001 for reminding me of this. (Huldra once showed it to me too but I'm such a scatterbrain, I totally forgot about it.) The material is drawn from BBC's guide to terminology in its reporting (available here). Please note that it says quite clearly:

Settlements are residential areas built by Israelis in the occupied territories. They are illegal under international law: this is the position of the UN Security Council and the UK government among others - although Israel rejects this.

When writing a story about settlements we can aim, where relevant, to include context to the effect that "all settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this".(emphasis as in original) Tiamut^talk 11:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

"east" of the green line?

It's not accurate to say that Ramot is east of the green line. It is beyond the green line, but it is in western Jerusalem, and I suppose north of the green line. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fundamentisto (talk • contribs) 11:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Is it located on the eastern or western side of the green line? It's place in relation to Jerusalem is not really why the green line is being mentioned here.. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 05:37, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions

This article is within scope of the discretionary sanctions. I have added a link to the top of the talk page. Compliance is mandatory. Breein1007, your edit here is in my view inconsistent with the sanctions (apart from simply being wrong) and I have reverted it. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

And in my view, your opinion is also simply wrong. The United States has referred to these neighborhoods over and over again as just that - neighborhoods. In terms of "international community", that is a weasel term that implies the entire world when this is in fact not the case. It is the United Nations that has made a declaration calling these neighborhoods "illegal settlements". Your revisions with the explanation of "nonsense" are not appreciated. If you want to refute this, then please do so properly. Breein1007 (talk) 05:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Whatever, I'm not going to waste my time with you. I'll file a sockpuppet investigation when I can be bothered to see whether you are Tundrabuggy, NoCal or whoever. In the meantime try complying with the sanctions. It will be good for you. Also, you might want to try implementing what was agreed here. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I looked over that link, and it seems to only further support my edits. The article, as it was before my edit, did not follow the agreement from your link.

"How about if we call the article Housing developments on the outskirts of Jerusalem and write, "Housing developments on the outskirts of Jerusalem are built on land captured in the 1967 war. They are considered illegal by blahblahblah. Israel and the United States describe them as 'neighborhoods' while the blahblahblahs describe them as 'settlements.'""

This is what the final agreement was. And this is almost word for word what I inserted into the article. So where exactly do you see the problem?

Finally, I will request that you refrain from discussing personal issues here. This is the talk page for Ramot. It is meant for discussion about the content of the article. If you have an issue with me or have suspicions about my account, feel free to post your concerns on my talk page or simply go ahead and fill out a SPI. I'll just say though, this is exciting - it's going to be my second one in a week! :) So popular! Breein1007 (talk) 06:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem with your approach is summed up by your edit summary and "international community" is a weasel term implying the whole world. The term 'international community' is accurate as is the whole world with almost no exceptions. Trying to suggest that it is just the UN is misinformation. Trying to imply that others refrain from using the term settlements is misinformation. I have no problem with you saying that the US refer to them a neighborhoods (although that is an over simplification). For future reference, it's a waste of time asking me to refrain from anything or giving me permission for anything. I have no interest in what editors who won't comply with the mandatory sanctions want. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

That's funny, because I've had an administrator tell me that I haven't gone against any sanctions with my edits. I think I'll go with him over you. For future reference, it's a waste of time telling me what to do and trying to intimidate me with Wiki bureaucracy. I'm not scared of your false threats, I will continue to follow the rules and improve articles to make them accurate and remove unfair POV (such as the one that you tried to preserve by reverting my edit), and I will continue to talk back when you attack me personally (especially when you do it on an article talk page, somewhere that it does not belong). I suggest you take a moment to refamiliarize yourself with Wikipedia:Talk page. That should clear up your confusion about what belongs here and what doesn't. And with that, I'll end this conversation because it is completely off-topic and move back to discussing the content of the article. Pointing out that the UN classifies the area as a settlement is not misinformation - it is completely true and documented. "International community" in itself is a very weak term. Look at the wikipedia article, it is a brief, under-developed article that has been flagged for its low quality. Suggesting "whole world with almost no exceptions" is equally misleading because as we both know, there are several exceptions. Others DO refrain from using the term settlements. How can you claim that as a false statement? You are saying that aside from Israel and the United States, the entire world calls them settlements? Every international organization? Every media outlet? Even every country? You're wrong. Even Al-Jazeera has been documented as calling them neighborhoods. The bottom line is that you're wrong, and it's as simple as that. The link you provided in your earlier message only further demonstrated my point. Breein1007 (talk) 06:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Cached Article

Breein1007 I appreciate you finding the cached article and re-adding it, however there are plenty of articles that show the US position on this has changed since Rice's time, so I don't really think it is applicable in showing the current US policy, only past ones? What do you think about this? Colourinthemeaning (talk) 05:37, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I've had trouble finding any RS showing that the Obama admin's policy is that Ramot is a settlement, but if you find something feel free. Breein1007 (talk) 10:08, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Located IN Jerusalem? Why not disputed?

As I have previously given many sources for it being a 'disputed' residential development, why is it being called simply a 'residential development'? Further, it is said to be 'one of the largest housing developments in Jerusalem,' but this is POV as its location within Jerusalem is disputed by UN Resolution 478 which called all legal changes to the city of Jerusalem 'null and void,' see[4], and it is only in Israel's opinion that Ramot (like the other Ring Neighborhoods, Jerusalem) are a part of Jerusalem, or Israel. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 07:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)