Talk:Ernest Hemingway

World Record

I have heard that Hemingway once held the world record for having caught the world's heaviest Marlin. Someone could verify this and add it to the article. I think it was the biggest tuna.

where are his pictures?

Can anybody tell why somebody reomved Hemingway's two pictures in this article? in one he was sitting on stairs and in the another he was writing on a table, they were good pictures, please put them back if you have them.

A clean well-lighted place

A critic of; A clean well-lighted place'

The short story, A clean well-lighted place, was first published by Hemingway in 1933 while living in Spain, during a worldwide great depression, and after he fought in the First World War. Ernest Hemingway’s writing is honest, simple, open-ended, and yet still provocative. The reason it is provocative, is not because it is complex or detailed, it is because the details are left to the reader to fill in the absent details. Hemingway leaves much of the detail up to the reader. There are no names of characters, no description of the café, there is nothing more than a simple story that the reader can interpret for himself. This type of writing gives a reader opportunity in many aspects; one could be to see himself. A clean well-lighted place is the essences of a man’s soul. A man’s life can be broken down into three simple phases in life. Each phase represents different point, values, needs, wants, and desires. What this short story really gives the reader is an opportunity to look at their own life. In this simple easy to read short story it seems that Hemmingway has left much of the imagery and description of characters up to the reader. All this emptiness forces the reader to fill the story with their own thoughts and ideas of what and where this story is taking place. The most interesting part of the story is not in the nothingness, although that does play an important part, or who is really saying what lines, rather it is in the three characters of men. Each represents a different point in one man’s life. Hemingway is giving the reader a chance to look at his own life in retrospect before he regrets what it may become one-day. The reader is given a young impatient waiter, an older waiter, and an eighty year old man with lots of money. This is the life cycle of a man’s life. The young waiter represents the first stage in a man’s life. Young men are more often impatient and unaffectionate of the world around them. They can be sloppy and immature many times. They care more about their wants and needs then the rest. This is seen twice once when the young man says about the old man; he has no regard for those who must work. The other time is when the young waiter is pouring the brandy and slopped it all over the place spilling it. The young man assumes everyone should be considerate of him, but does not care about how he treats others. The young waiter thinks he is more important. When many young Americans went to Europe to fight in the First World War they saw it as a glorious task and they were invincible. What they were doing was more important in their own eyes. After the war many of them had changed in ways they could not have anticipated. The older waiter represents the second and longest stage in a man’s life. A young man ceases to be young once he understands that there is more to his world then just his ideals. That he is not always right and controls nothing more than the time he spends in this world. This only happens when a man’s life is altered by forces stronger than his own, just as Hemingway’s was when he was injured in Italy. The older waiter is more understanding of the old man staying to drink and enjoy his life. He is in no rush because he has a greater understanding of life. This is obvious when the older waiter asks the younger waiter, why didn’t you let him stay and drink. Despite anything else what is important is that nothing else matters except respect of each other. This is the cardinal rule that the older waiter has come to understand. The older waiter has nothing left in life to prove he does not need to rush home or waste an hour doing something else he does not really need to do. All he has left to do in his life is his job, simple and easy. One day both of the waiters will become the old man. The old man represents the final stage in a man’s life. He represents the point that a man reaches when he has done all he can and has seen all he wants. The old man wants nothing more than to leave the world only to be rescued by his loved ones. The old man is clean and dignified despite the treatment of the young waiter he is tempered and only wishes to drink more. The old man has the young waiter fill his brandy glass telling the waiter a little more; the glass is the symbol for life. The glass is filled and overflows with brandy. The old man is telling the reader his life is full. It is not half empty or half full but fulfilled. When the young waiter refuses to serve the old man anymore the old man leaves without becoming angry or upset, showing the young waiter that nothing more than integrity and respect matter. The young waiter shows how selfish he is to the reader. Hemingway is depicting one man’s life through the three men in the story. Each has something to give but nothing to lose; each of the men is telling the reader about their own life depending on what point they are at in their life cycle. Each man represents a stage in a man’s life; one of youth with the whole world before him, another who has lived long enough to know nothing else matters than how you treat others, and the last one is the old man who has lived his life ready to leave this world with dignity. The openness of this story allows the reader to place himself in each man in the story at his own local café, pub, bar, or bodega. This opportunity gives the reader the chance not to make the same mistakes that lead to a lonely life. The young waiter is so selfish eventually he will lose his wife becoming the older waiter because it is too late for him to reconcile and finally becoming the old man in the café waiting for death to take him. This leaves the reader with an understanding that in life all anyone has is a small window in time, and in that window is an opportunity. What a person does with a given opportunity is up to them. That is what Hemmingway is telling the reader and the proof is in one simple question, what is an hour?

Needs a rewrite also

Understanding Hemingway

Throughout Hemingway’s work there are reoccurring themes that revolve around life. It is this reoccurring theme that dominates his work and it is what makes it so important in day’s life. This theme is also what makes Hemingway’s work ageless. The agelessness of his writing makes it easy for any person from any generation to slip themselves inside the story. Because the stories leave out in-depth detail about individual and scenery one could place themselves as any character as well. What Hemingway’s is telling his audience is about life, just as other critics, David Daiches did in 1941 and Bern Oldsey did in 1963, have stated.

Hemingway’s writing is simple and allows the audience to follow it and to fill in the details to fit the reader so that way they feel they are in the story. The structure of the sentences is calming and easy flowing, giving the reader the feel that they need to continue on the story.

A Clean Well Lighted-Place, The Snows of Kilimanjaro, and The Old man and The Sea are perfect examples of Hemingway’s lean yet complex work. Each one presents the audience with unique characters. All are men either searching out something or coming to grips with a part of their life coming to an end. A clean well lighted place gives the reader three men each at different stages of life. The young waiter is brazen and cares for no one except what he wants. The older waiter is understanding and shows compassion for others. The old man in the story has lived his life and accomplished everything he wants in life. Each of these men can be seen as the different stages of life in one man’s life. But, they can also be seen as something more. The young waiter is the man in Kilimanjaro who is injured by his own fault. Because he cared for no one else, not even his wife who loves him so dearly, he loses everything. It is in the last moments in his life that he realizes what truly matters. The older waiter is the old man in The Old man and The Sea. He is the old man because he understood what is important to life and realizes that life is a struggle and in life man must look beyond today and always push forward. The old man is a mentor to a young boy to teach him that humans cannot hesitate. The audience is able to see themselves as the boy since in a way they all being mentored by the old man and Hemingway. From the trials and tribulations that Hemingway went through in life he is attempting through his writings to warn men of the faults and vices and focused of the virtues in life. The Old Man and the Sea tells the reader that even in defeat there is some sort of victory. It is what a man makes out of life that determines what happens in his own life. Simply said combine all the works the main theme is that in life there are more important things then war, victory, self-interest, momentary pleasures. It’s the long term part of man’s life that is important. At any given moment it could all be swept away and in that everything that was thought to be important is gone and all that is left is what was real to everyone. The reader must ask themselves a question about life, their actions, and Ultimately each one of use will face the same fate with death. Not one person will ever know for sure when they will die. All Hemingway was telling the world is, do not take this life for granted. Enjoy it for what you have and when the opportunity presents itself be ready to act just as the old man did when he lowered his six lines in the sea to create his own luck. When humans think of life we all attempt to quantify it with either a cup half full or climbing a mountain or even attempting to catch the big fish to prove we are still worthy to ourselves and the world. In that all readers can gain the respect that Hemingway deserves for all his work. That is why he published many of his short stories together in a single book called, The Fifth Column and the First Forty-Nine Stories. Hemingway’s experiences throughout his life gave him a more understanding of humanity and life and published the stories with the hope that others would see the truth about their own life and not to make the mistakes of the previous generations. It is the hope of every generation that the next one will be better than the previous one and Hemingway shows the world the truth about humanity instead of sugar coating it. At the end the audience interprets the stories their own way, this interpretation leads one to conclude that maybe there is more to the story then just what Hemingway was writing and that there are deeper meanings for everyone depending on their point in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hemingway:_The_Collected_Stories

one more

Ernest Hemingway’s legacy

Key West celebrates Hemingway

Ernest Hemingway spent ten years of his life living on the Key West Island. While there he spent his time writing some of the greatest classics, which include “The Snows of Kilimanjaro”. He spent much of his time, while living in Key West, at his favorite watering hole Sloppy Joes’ bar. Each year Key West hold’s a celebration in honor of Ernest Hemingway, named Hemingway days festival. Throughout the celebration members of the community come together to honor one of the greatest writers in American history, in various ways, the celebration last over a few days culminating in a look-alike contest at Sloppy Joes. During the Hemingway days, there is a short story contest fishing contest, along with readings from authors. The 2008 celebration included some members from Hemingway’s family, his grandson Edward Hemingway and granddaughter Lorain Hemingway. His grandson is a writer and illustrator and used the celebrations to showcase his new children’s book. Edward said while at the festival “I imagine my grandfather would get a kick out of the festival. The spirit of his life is here in Key West.’’ http://www.miamiherald.com/577/story/611618.html

Influence and Legacy

I'd just like to add that David Sim included a fictionalised biography of Hemingway in his 27 year long graphic novel series. The 'Form and Void' book fictionalises Hemingway, but contains vast detail. Appreciation of Sim's work is vastly complicated by Sim's use of misogyny in his plot.

Minor typo

In the penultimate line in the introduction, the word 'considerable' is misspelled.

Bibliography?

Less influential, and more prolific, authors' articles have lists of their work. Why doesn't this one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.56.140.16 (talk) 23:06, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway bibliography is a separate article, linked to in the See Also from this article. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ernest Hemingway/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: María (habla conmigo) 12:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello, I'll be reviewing this article for GA-status. Because of the impressive size and scope of the subject matter, it may take me a few days to complete the review; I'll alert the nominator when I've placed the article on hold for improvements. Thanks for your patience! María (habla conmigo) 12:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

This article is excellent. Seriously, it's one of the best literary bios I've had the pleasure of reading, and I can definitely see it at FAC in the near future. With that in mind, here are some comments/suggestions for improvement that may go above and beyond the GA criteria, but may be helpful to keep in mind further down the road:

Lead

• Overall, the lead is very good; it gives a detailed summary of the article, including details about Hemingway's career and life.
• During his lifetime he had seven novels, six collections of short stories, and two works of non-fiction published... -- Just a minor quibble, but I think it would read easier if it were "During his lifetime he published seven novels, six collections..." etc.

• Need clarification here. He himself did not publish the works, but I can reword if necessary.

• It's not necessary, no, although I don't necessarily jump to the conclusion that an author publishes works himself, if worded that way. Disregard if you think the suggestion isn't an improvement. María (habla conmigo) 20:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Hemingway's distinctive writing style characterized by economy and understatement had an enormous influence on 20th-century fiction, as did his apparent life of adventure and the public image he cultivated. -- "characterized by economy and understatement" is an aside, so separate by commas or unspaced em dashes.

• done

• Hemingway produced most of his work between the mid-1920s and the mid-1950s, culminating in his 1954 Nobel Prize in Literature. -- slight confusion here as to what exactly is "culminating"; perhaps reword as "and his career culminated in [his receiving?]..."?

• Reworded but not crazy about it. Will rework again most likely.

• Hemingway's protagonists are typically stoical men who exhibit an ideal described as "grace under pressure"; many of his works are considered classics of American literature. -- These thoughts are seemingly unrelated, which defeats the purpose of the semi-colon. Perhaps move the "classics of American literature" line to its own sentence (which would make it more powerful), and add something else about Hemingway's style? I see that Iceberg Theory is linked earlier in the paragraph, but it's hidden. Again, I'm getting very picky here, but seeing as how this is the very first paragraph in the article, we want it at its best, right? :)

• This is a remnant from the original lead. I'm not good at writing leads and Malleus worked on the version I wrote. I may ask for help again, because I agree here with your assessment. Will see what I can do, but if not satisfactory will ask for help.

• reworded and made iceberg theory more prominent Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

• The rest of the lead reads well for me; it's simple, not stylistically overwhelming -- which I have a tendency to do, I admit -- and lists many of Hemingway's notable works, which is what I would look for were I a casual reader. Is it important to note all four of his wives and their particular manners of meeting/marrying/divorcing, however? I would argue that his time spent in the numerous wars, as well as his trips to the Key West and Cuba, would be more important to the understanding of his work. I'm not saying his freaky-toed cats should be mentioned or anything, but seeing as how long the article is, the lead could be a little more detailed, if need be.

• Some of that was edited out per the Peer review. I'm happy to re-add if you think it's necessary. Note: I'm very bad at writing leads, so will most likely leave these issues to the last. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Leads are difficult to gauge, I agree, and what sometimes constitutes as an important detail to one editor may not be seen as important to another. Play around with it some more and see what works best for you. María (habla conmigo) 20:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Early life

• His father, Clarence Edmonds Hemingway, was a physician and his mother, Grace Hall–Hemingway (she hyphenated her last name), a musician, both well-educated and well-respected in the conservative community of Oak Park. -- this gave me pause for several reasons. First, his father was his mother (!) and the seemingly unnecessary explanation that Grace hyphenated her name. I think there should also be a semi-colon after "musician": "; both were well-educated..." etc.

• fixed

• The family owned a summer home called Windemere on Walloon Lake, near Petoskey, Michigan, which they visited during the summers. -- correct me if I'm wrong, but "Windemere" should probably not be in italics according to WP:ITALICS.

• fixed

• His father Clarence instructed him in the outdoor life until depression caused him to become reclusive when Hemingway was about 12-years-old. -- careful with the pronouns: which "him" that was effected by depression is ambiguous at first.

• Not really necessary - removed

• He and his sister Marcelline... -- this kind of comes out of nowhere. How many siblings he had should probably be noted earlier in the section.

• Completely forgot to add the note about the siblings. Now added.

• Beginning in his junior year, Hemingway wrote and edited the "Trapeze" and "Tabula" (the school's newspaper and yearbook), in which he imitated the language of sportswriters, and sometimes used the pen name Ring Lardner, Jr., a nod to his literary hero Ring Lardner of the Chicago Tribune, who used the byline "Line O'Type". -- Long and comma-ey sentence that could probably be broken up. Also, italicize newspapers.

• I've fixed this, but it's a remnant from the article before I worked on it. I'm inclined to delete some of it if you agree.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• I think the gist of it is fascinating, especially since it sets the scene for what is to come. If you think it can be tightened up, then go for it. María (habla conmigo) 20:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

TBC... María (habla conmigo) 13:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Wow, I wasn't expecting replies so quickly! In that case, I'll try to finish this sooner than I initially planned. Continuing review below:

World War I

• Early in 1918, Hemingway responded to a Red Cross recruitment effort and signed on as an ambulance driver. In the spring he returned for a quick trip home, and up to Michigan to fish, before leaving for New York. -- Where was he stationed as an ambulance driver? The first few sentences in this section list, in quick succession, numerous locations -- perhaps work to copy-edit for flow.

• done

• Hemingway spent six months in hospital... -- a British-ism in an article about one of America's finest writers? Outrage! Seriously, though, there are particular editors at FAC who tend to pick on wording and spelling choices if the subject is closely related to a specific nationality; in this case, some would argue that because the guy was a hot blooded American, he would have spent six months in THE hospital. Very, very minor and picky, but FYI -- some people have too much time on their hands. :)

• fixed

Toronto and Chicago

• There's a tendency, especially in this section, to simply list Hemingway's movements. While noting where he goes and what he does is clearly important, it does not make for brilliant, engaging prose, which is something that WP:WIAFA of course pushes for. When I'm writing bios, I tend to have to remind myself of the importance of explaining why someone did something, and why it matters. Why did he spend so much time fishing and camping with friends, for example? I'm guessing he was going through a healing period, seeking comfort in the outdoors and those who knew him before; perhaps the sources expand upon this? Also, what attracted him to these older women? What were they like? The sources may not have anything to this degree, but these are just examples of what I'm wondering to myself while reading the article. Seek to inject some life into it.

• partially done

• Why the older women? From what I can tell, he was stuck in a hospital with a terrible wound with an attractive night nurse (7 years older). Maybe only coincidence, personality and the war, but that's not verifiable. Apparently Hadley reminded him of Agnes. I've added that. So the short response is: done with this

Paris

• I of course know who Gertrude Stein and Ezra Pound are, but you may want to introduce them a little more fully here, to better give a sense of how they may have influenced Hemingway. (It seems like quite a leap from one to another!) Other names are thrown around, so additional context would be helpful.

• tried to clarify without adding to the length. If still too terse, let me know.

• I'm still not getting a sense of Hemingway himself, I'm afraid. Did he like Paris? (He must have, since he lived there so long.) Was he proud of The Sun Also Rises? (It was his first novel, so did he say anything to anyone about writing it other than he took more time with it?)

• Added a little. Will expand in the separate article about the book. If not enough, let me know.

Key West and the Caribbean

• How did he feel about his father's suicide? Is it known?

• developed more

• Hemingway's stature as an American writer was secured. -- How? Why? That reminds me, how did The Sun Also Rises fare?

• partially done

Spanish Civil War and World War II

• Hemingway and Martha Gellhorn moved to Cuba in 1939... -- some sort of transition needs to be made before this; one moment they're meeting, and the next they're moving to Cuba together!

• added explanation

• While in Paris he attended a reunion hosted by Sylvia Beach and made up his long-running feud with Gertrude Stein. -- "made up"?

• Fixed.

Cuba

• Compared to earlier sections, this section in particular sings: I get a sense of Hemingway's pains and frustrations, personally but also as an author. I think the article could definitely use more personal touches that are seen here.

• Added more personal touches

• Back in Cuba, in October 1954 Hemingway received the Nobel Prize in Literature. Politely he mentioned Carl Sandburg and Isak Dinesen, who in his opinion, deserved the prize. The prize money was welcome, he told reporters. -- slightly clumsy writing throughout. He didn't receive the Nobel in Cuba, "he politely mentioned..., and he later told reporters the prize money..."?

• reworded

Idaho and suicide

• In 1957 he had begun A Moveable Feast, working on it in Cuba and Idaho from 1957 to 1960. -- Two mentions of 1957 is redundant here.

• fixed

• His early passion for bullfighting was renewed in 1959 when he spent the summer in Spain for a series of bullfighting articles he was to write for Life Magazine. -- See, earlier in the article when bullfighting was mentioned, nothing was said of Hemingway's obvious passion for it. Since I've read The Sun Also Rises, this fact is obvious to me, but someone not familiar with the work would wonder why it wasn't mentioned sooner.

• Good point. Added info about his first visit to Spain and his love for bullfighting in the Paris section.

• Alone in Spain, without Mary, Hemingway's mental state disintegrated rapidly. -- how?

• Explained.

• His paranoia became acute and he believed the FBI was actively monitoring his movements. -- related to the above, but this is the first mention of paranoia here; when did it first appear?

• partial clarification clarified
• to be resolved later (book returned to the library)

• Clarified.

• Back in Ketchum in the spring of 1961, three months after his initial ECT treatments at the Mayo... -- again, this comes out of left field. When did he receive ECT treatments? These facts are not insignificant, they're important and should not just be mentioned in passing.

• added clarification

• Added to his physical ailments was the additional problem that Hemingway had been a heavy drinker for most of his life. -- I remember earlier in the article it said he went on drinking binges with Joyce, but this could perhaps be stressed a little further. All that drinking they did in The Sun Also Rises? Sheesh.

• not resolved - should be added throughout the biography

• added a few more mentions of drinking. Will add more if you think necessary.

• added one more about drinking to combat pain after the near fatal plane accidents.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:50, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Themes

• Is it strange that I think the "Writing style" should come before "themes"? I feel like we jump into such heavy, subjective material without first discussing the concrete facts of Hemingway's writing.
• Furthermore, Fiedler considers the American literary theme of the evil "Dark Woman" vs. the good "Light Woman" to be inverted in Hemingway's fiction. The dark woman (Brett Ashley) is a goddess; the light woman (Margot Macomber) is a murderess. -- A great point, but if I hadn't read the book, I wouldn't know what the names in parentheses meant, or what book they refer to.

• fixed

• No misogyny? No racism?

• Misogny, homophobia and racism added. I intend to write a separate daughter article about the themes with greater expansion of these points. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
• flipped the two sections.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Writing style

• The New York Times wrote in 1926 of Hemingway's first novel... -- This is great, and I almost wish it was in the bio, since it proves that Hemingway began his vocation as a novelist with a bang. The proceeding sentence fares well as a lead by itself.
• He explains that Hemingway and other modernists... -- this is the first time in the article that Hemingway's place in the movement (other than his gallivanting around with other modernists) is plainly stated. His effect on Modernism was great, and can be expanded even further.

• This is why it is so important to get more than one set of eyes on a piece of writing! One leaves out the most obvious bits. Added modernism to lead and to Paris section.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:17, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

• The quotebox is great, but I'd also love to see examples of Hemingway's work, especially to illustrate his unique style. A couple well known quotes, for example, or even (my favorite) the six-word short story he once penned to prove a point. Such an example wouldn't have to be in quoteboxes, or even in this particular section, but if you're looking for a way to show rather than tell, that would be the way to go.

• Added another box with opening passage from A Farewell to Arms. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Reception and legacy

• His books were burned in Berlin in 1933... -- could we get a link here? Nazi book burnings? Also, this sentence stands in stark opposition to the rest of the paragraph, which is extremely positive.

• Done

• Which brings me to... what, no Hemingway criticism? Surely there are feminist literary critics out there who can't stand the man and his fiction. What about contemporary detractors who hated his sparse prose? The Saul Bellow quote comes close, but even that is more playful than critical.

• In looking at the feminist critics, I find that more recent female critics have re-evaluated and see his work as more complex as initially believed, which I've explained. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:50, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

• added to Reception section

Misc

• The images look great and appear to be correctly tagged and such (although I admit I'm not an expert in this regard).
• The references are correctly and consistently formatted for the most part. A couple niggles:
• Make sure dates are consistently listed: I see both "Retrieved 8 February 2010" (ref 60) "Retrieved 2009–08–29" (ref 14)

• fixed Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

• Hemingway: the postwar years and the posthumous novels and a couple other sources need proper capitalization
• When I took Stephen Crane to FAC, someone suggested that I include a short list of selected works, with a link to the main, bibliographical article. You may want to consider doing the same here; although of course his major works are listed throughout the article, it's nice to have such a list available for those not willing to wade through everything for one wikilink. This would also remove Ernest Hemingway bibliography from the "See also" section.

• Good idea. Added a few. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Here is how it stands against the criteria:

1. Well-written: For the most part; see particular concerns above.
2. Factually accurate and verifiable: Yes.
3. Broad in its coverage: Yes.
4. Neutral: Yes.
5. Stable: Yes.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by images: Yes.

Okay, in summation: this is obviously a GA. The reason I spent so long on the prose is because I honestly think this is a great article, and could be even greater with some additional work. My final impression is to beg for more, really; while pointing out how often Hemingway went fishing and hunting and sailing does great to hint at the guy's Macho man-lifestyle, tell me, maybe even in his own words, how these activities thrilled him. What moved him? What saddened him? To truly do such a character as Hemingway justice, we almost have to go overboard, don't you think? Others may disagree, and believe that a distanced biography is the way to go, but we're talking Hemingway here. Drama, to say the least. Give them a few extra reasons to keep reading, other than "I have to write a paper on Hemingway due tomorrow and the library is closed, help!"

In short, I'm passing this. Take these comments with numerous grains of salt, and best of luck in expanding and improving. If you have any questions about this review or what-have-you, feel free to contact me. Take care, María (habla conmigo) 20:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Thank you very much. The criticism is well received. In my defense, I was trying very hard not to gush about the guy, and to keep the article at a reasonable length. At one point I did have snippets from the books included, but needed to add the themes and writing style section and it was getting much too long. I'll go through and make the changes you suggest. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations

Well done...Modernist (talk) 03:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 142.179.223.60, 21 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Read the first sentence under the header "Paris". There is something missing there it does not make sense. Thanks.

142.179.223.60 (talk) 19:36, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

If you read the previous paragraph it makes more sense. Don't hesitate to post here if you still don't understand. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits re: bi-polar disease

We have to be very careful about this. In fact Hemingway was never diagnosed as bi-polar during his lifetime. His mental illness may have been caused by a number of mitigating factors such as a rare genetic disorder and an inordinate number of head injuries. Additionally he was an alcoholic for much of his life (no doubt in the sources on that) which causes mood swings, etc. I've examined these sources and found that they simply suggest the possiblity of the condition without confirming. It's very hard for an accurate diagnosis as Hemingway died 49 years ago. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not hard at all. There is a plethora of sources on this. You have to realize that all diagnosis are opinions. These are documented opinions, that's all. References are included and that's all that is needed to be valid and reliable on Wikipedia. See:[1].Tstrobaugh (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. His symptom may have been, and most likely were the result of the alcoholism. A diagnosis is definitely an opinion when the patient is dead. There is an opinion paper suggesting that Hemingway may have suffered from bi-polar - nowhere does the author declare definitively that he did. The second source is a student handbook, of much lower quality than the sources used here. Needs to be more than a documented opinion, and certainly should be worded better. The material had been reworded, the sources formatted, and left in the article, but commented out. In my view, it will take more than then the one opinion the add this information. Approximately 3000 to 4000 articles exist on Hemingway, and his biographers, who were very thorough, do not point to bi-polarism. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid we are at the end here. You didn't even look at the link above which provides hundreds of scientific sources for the bipolar claim. So this discussion was pointless as I knew it would be, I will revert without further comment.Tstrobaugh (talk) 17:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I see words such as "careful reading" and "suggest" - not a diagnosis. Thus, it's tricky to add. Sorry you want to revert without discussion. I'll download some of the better sources and read. If this information is to be left in, it should use the best possible source. A student handbook is not the best possible source. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:46, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The current version has it is widely believed that Hemingway suffered bipolar disorder. Does the Student Companion to Ernest Hemingway (the cite used) state that? Explicitly, does it say the belief is widely held? (That seems surprising, but I'm very, very far from being knowledgeable here.

Google turned up this, which seems intriguing as it suggest Hemingway has been "reliably diagnosed as having bipolar disorder". I'd like to see more - who diagnosed, and when?

The rest of the ghits were far less convincing: lots of "careful reading" and "speculation".

Oh, and both of you: WP:BRD ;-)

TFOWR 18:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)