Talk:Eagle Scout

Good

good —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.131.101.232 (talk) 13:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

--- This article reads well, and is very informative. Being an Eagle Scout myself, I believe that it should be mentioned that only %2 of all scouts become Eagles. Seanmichaelcouch (talk) 04:48, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

At the end of the History section. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 10:54, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Award revocation

There is no mention of how one might lose the honor of Eagle Scout. The top of the article mentions the quote "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle", but the distinction can be revoked if an Eagle Scout is convicted of a felony. Has anyone found good source material to write a section on award revocation? Unicycle77 (talk) 23:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

"A Scout badge is a recognition of what a boy is able to do, not a reward for what he has done"— *Advancement Guidelines. Boy Scouts of America. 1977. (this is the copy I happened to have at hand). I'm not aware that there is a process for any award to be revoked. "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle" really refers to any number of Eagle Scouts who might state "I was an Eagle"; this is incorrect, as they would always be an Eagle Scout, or Life, Star or any of the others. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I've not heard of this, losing your Eagle for a felony. Do you have a sound reference for this? — Rlevse • Talk • 00:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

NESA history

NESA has a new Eagle Scout history;[1] it is pretty nice, except that the author is confused on the appearance of skill awards. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Advanced Rank upon enlistment

I know we've already got this line: "Eagle Scouts who enlist in the U.S. military may receive advanced rank in recognition of their achievements.[32][33]". I've found some more about this for the article. On the back cover of the most recent Eagletter (those in NESA get this), there is this blurb:

Military Services Seek Eagle Scouts

It's no secret that Boy Scout training is invaluable to young men who choose to join the military. That's why America's armed services let recruits who are Eagle Scouts enlist at the grade of E-2. In addition, recruits may be eligible to enlist at the grade of E-3 if they've earned the Eagle Scout Award and meet certain additional criteria, such as having earned 24 or more hours of college credit.

Here's the citation for it (see the markup): "In Brief". Eagletter. 34 (2). National Eagle Scout Association: 24. 2008.
I'll leave it to those who've written the article to integrate this better than I can. -MBK₀₀₄ 02:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a tweak in the rule. It may vary from service to service too. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Controversies Section

The controversies section references a Philadelphia Inquirer article appears to be biased. The article states that "scouts, gay and straight, have returned their badges." It gives no examples except for one case. This does not justify the plural language used suggesting a mass renouncement. I also question the reliability of the Inquirer's article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DMGTN (talk • contribs) 03:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

A quick search will show similar articles with other names, the Inquirer article was probably one of the more neutral; this is balanced by the BSA statement. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Two million

Unofficial sources put the 2008 Eagle census at 52,025 for a total of 1,990,905. Estimates are that the two-millionth Eagle Scout will be awarded between 5 and 10 March. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 21:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

You got that from me, and I in turn got it directly from the BSA national office - Jeff Laughlin who works there gave me this info on 23 Feb 2009. The 1990905 is the results of my adding that information into the previous spreadsheet using the document I had gotten from Jeff last year for ALL previous years numbers. It can be considered official. The 10 March exstimate for the 2 millionth Eagle is also from the National office. The 5 Mar is my estimate, but both are just estimates based upon the 52000 rate and the day of the year. Mycroft_514

Hi! By unofficial, I mean we don't have a reliable source other than word of mouth; we need something in print or web. Given the turnaround from National, the 2ME is probably already in the paperwork chain. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:35, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

 Done ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:51, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Youngest

1911 - 1924 unknown

Time Period	Last name	First name	Date of Birth	Date of Eagle	Age at Eagle	Troop	Council	Citation
(1924-04-01)April 1, 1924 to (1958-09-15)September 15, 1958	Hubbard	L. Ron	(1911-03-13)March 13, 1911	(1924-04-01)April 1, 1924	13 years, 19 days 13 years, 14 days	Troop 10	Washington DC.	"Was Ron really the youngest Eagle Scout in the US?". Documents of a Lifetime:The L. Ron Hubbard Papers. 12 Dec 1996. Retrieved February 18, 2009.
(1958-09-15)September 15, 1958 to (1998-03-10)March 10, 1998	Wheeler	Jack	(1946-11-09)November 9, 1946	(1958-09-15)September 15, 1958	12 years, 310 days 12 years, 10 months, and 6 days	Troop 7	Glendale, California	[2]
(1998-03-10)March 10, 1998 to (1998-03-30)March 30, 1998	Voelker	Nathan C.	(1985-08-23)August 23, 1985	(1998-03-10)March 10, 1998	12 years, 199 days 12 years 6 months and 15 days	Troop 1155	Anaheim, California	[3]
(1998-03-30)March 30, 1998 to present	Bell	Zac	(1985-11-05)November 5, 1985	(1998-03-30)March 30, 1998	12 years, 145 days 12 years, 4 months @ 25 days	Troop 51	Gillette, Wyoming	[4]

Raw stats from website[5]

• L Ron ..."Was Ron really the youngest Eagle Scout in the US?". Documents of a Lifetime:The L. Ron Hubbard Papers. 12 Dec 1996. Retrieved February 18, 2009.

• L. Ron Hubbard, Troop 10, Washington DC.

On April 1, 1924 @ 13 years and 14 days

Youngest Eagle Scout: 04/01/24 - ?

• Jack Wheeler, Troop 7, Glendale California

On September 15, 1958 @ 12 years, 10 months, and 6 days

Youngest Eagle Scout: 09/15/58 - ?

• Timothy A. Knotts, San Diego California

On December 15, 1973 @ 13years, and 25 days

• Mark Harrison, Troop 59, Fort Valley Georgia

On October 20, 1976 @ 13 years and 22 days

• Nathan C. Voelker, Troop 1155, Anaheim California

On March 10, 1998 @ 12 years 6 months and 15 days

Youngest Eagle Scout: 03/10/98 - 03/30/98

• Zac Bell, Troop 51, Gillette Wyoming

On March 30, 1998 @ 12 years, 4 months @ 25 days.

Youngest Eagle Scout: 03/30/98 - ?

• Michael Bentzein, Troop 1155, Anaheim California

On August 20, 1998 @ 12 years, 11 months, and 6 days

• Thomas Boyle, Troop 748, Lakewood Colorado

On December 5, 1998 @ 12 years, 7months, and 18 days

• Jake Tobin, Troop 51, Gillette Wyoming

On February 18, 1999 @ 12 years, 8 months, and 7 days

• William McLaughlin, Provo Utah

12 years, 9 months and 9 days

---

• Interesting? Newport Backbay (talk) 02:27, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

My own son made Eagle at 12y, 9m, and some odd days. That was in 2004. So no way was Hubbard youngest ever. Maybe the youngest at the time, but no way these days. I think it's just so much COFS propaganda. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

And the email rejected, so that page is not being maintained. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

• In any case, I think that if any of thse can be substantiated it would be an interesting tidbit. The BSA tracks both the Eagle date and date of birth. Newport Backbay (talk) 17:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I can prove my son's but it would not be wise to put his name, dob, and Eagle date on wiki. ;-) — Rlevse • Talk • 18:04, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

• Join at 10 years of age
• Tenderfoot for 1 month— requires physical record of 30 days
• Second Class
• First Class for 4 months
• Star for 6 months
• Life for 6 months

So— the bare minimum for the current requirements is 11 years, 5 months. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 20:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

That's under current rules, the rules haven't always been the same. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Where is this going? Being the youngest or oldest does not confer the notability required for inclusion on this list. If there were any reliable sources, we could mention it in the main Eagle Scout article as we did for the millionth Eagle Scout. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

• I don't know where it is going, but if it could be documented, it is an interesting tidbit. Newport Backbay (talk) 16:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Badge images

I'm forking this from Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_review#Non-free_files ...

Wikipedia standards have changed ... the current standard is no fair use galleries period. It's a moving target, but that's where it currently is and it's only a matter of time before they get expunged.

In the case of anything on there first used before 1923, the badge itself is public domain and if there is no copyright notice anywhere on it, anything first published before 1978 is probably public domain, though there might be special rules here (I don't know if the notice has to be physically on the badge or if simply including the notice in, say, the certificate that they mail along with the badge would be sufficient).

IMPORTANT DISTINCTION: the badge itself is public domain, not any random photograph of it. Pictures of 2D objects (like photocopying a page out of a book, scanning an old photograph, photographing a painting) are NOT copyrightable under SCT rulings, but a patch or a badge is 3D (albeit just barely) so if you take a photograph of a badge, you have created a separate copyrightable work - it is a "derivative work" of the badge, but is considered a creative work in and of itself.

For the ones where the badges themselves are in the public domain, if they are scanned/photographed/whatever by someone who releases their work into the public domain (or under the GFDL, etc), we can use them as free images. At the very least, that means find originals of File:Eagle Scout badge (type 1).png, File:Eagle Scout medal THF1.png, File:Eagle Scout medal D&C1.png, and File:Eagle Scout medal ROB5.png, scan/photograph them, release the scan/photograph under the GFDL/CC/etc and we can use it. If it can be reasonably demonstrated that there is no copyright notice, that applies to any of the badges/medals that are pre-1978 - find an original, scan it in, and we can use it.

For ones where the badges themselves are not in the public domain, it's highly unlikely they are going to be able to stay (except for the current badge, which I would say is obviously a legitimate fair use). --B (talk) 17:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

If this was only a trademark issue, I would agree, but the BSA (and GSUSA) badges and emblems are also protected by congressional charter:

§ 30905. Exclusive right to emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights

[6]

The protections afforded by the charter have been invoked by the BSA, most especially in the trademark issues that lead to Wrenn v. Boy Scouts of America.

I just updated the rationales for all of the images here— the badges were originally uploaded by Dep369 and the medals by Rlevse— we can verify the sources from them. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 18:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 18:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia accepts free images even if they depict protected trademarks, eg File:Coca-Cola logo.svg. Our only issue is one of copyright, which necessarily under the constitution has a limited term (see Copyright Clause). --B (talk) 19:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Copyright? These are protected by trademark and charter; registered trademarks don't expire. Eagle Scout is trademark 73307667, first use in 1911, searchable through TESS. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 19:32, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but copyright and trademark are two different issues. Wikipedia uses images that depict trademarks without requiring jumping through hoops. We do not use copyrighted images without jumping through them. If I take a photo of something Scouting-related for which the copyright has expired or which makes nominal use of the trademark, eg, a photo of uniformed Scouts, I, personally, own the copyright to that photograph. Nobody can use it without my permission and the BSA has no rights to enjoin me from using it UNLESS I am using it in some way that diminishes the value of the BSA trademark (eg, framed prints of Eagle badges to hang on your wall). Wikipedia does not use images in any way that infringes on trademark rights and so we will host images that depict a trademark. --B (talk) 20:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

What is currently ref 24, "Grove, Terry (2004). A Comprehensive Guide to the Eagle Scout Award (Twentieth Century ed.). pp. 10-170. ISBN 097765348X." is where I got all my images from, except for the Robbins5 medal, which is a pic of my own personal Eagle medal. I'll update the image source info. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Glenn A. and Melinda W. Adams National Eagle Scout Service Project of the Year Award

Looking for a non-primary source before adding this:

The National Eagle Scout Association is pleased to announce that due to a very generous gift from the NESA president and his wife, they have approved the creation of the Glenn A. and Melinda W. Adams National Eagle Scout Service Project of the Year Award. Each council NESA committee will have the opportunity to select their Council Eagle Scout Service Project of the Year Award recipient, who will then be considered for the Regional Eagle Scout Service Project of the Year Award, and the Glenn A. and Melinda W. Adams National Eagle Scout Service Project of the Year Award. The national award will be presented at the National Annual Meeting.

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 18:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I never heard of this. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It was just announced through my DE. Not even listed on the BSA or NESA sites, but on a few council sites. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 23:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Now listed at NESA.[7] Will work this in later.

Explorer Silver Award

This is awkward:

The Eagle Scout and Explorer Silver Award are the only Boy Scout ranks that are recognized on an adult Scouter's uniform as knots. The knots are worn as an adult recognition of the youth award as a red, white, and blue striped square knot of different designs

Silver has never been a rank and it is certainly not a Boy Scout rank; and yes, Boy Scout can ambiguously refer to the BSA or the Boy Scouting section. Why do we need to bring Silver into this? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:54, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that info is incorrect. If all BSA is included, then there is also the Arrow of Light, Exploring GOLD, and Venturing Silver. I have reverted the changes as extraneous and incorrect. - IanCheesman (talk) 20:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

History of the medal

The pictures of the Eagle Scout medals do not correspond to the verbage in the paragraph on the "History of the medal". Fourth Paragraph: "In 1933, BSA was removed from all the Eagle Scout insignia, including the medal. In 1955 the obverse of the eagle pendant was made flat so it could be engraved." These two sentences are correct. However, the pictures of the of the Eagle Scout medals next to the paragraph on the History of the medal shows an Eagle Scout medal dated 1920-1978 with a BSA on the eagle, and shows a medal dated 1955-1969 without BSA on the front of the eagle on the medal. THESE PICTURES ARE MISLABLED. Sources: Hanging in my office are my father's and my Eagle Scout award. My father earned his Eagle Scout medal in 1934 and it does not have BSA on the eagle in the medal and it has engraved feathers on the back. I earned my Eagle Scout medal in 1962 and it has BSA on the front of the eagle and the eagle has a flat shiny back". Douglas Fir Green (talk) 00:48, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that— the images were out of order. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I am assuming that this is a work in progress. I visited the website this morning and see that there is no Eagle Scout medal shown for the period 1920-1954, and the incorrect picture is posted for the date 1955-1969. If you give me an e-mail address I can send you a high quality picture of my father's 1934 Eagle Scout medal and my 1962 Eagle Scout medal. I notice that the stitching on my father's 1934 Eagle Scout medal (which doesn't have a BSA on the eagle in the medal) is slightly different than the stitching on the Eagle Scout medal without the BSA on the eagle currently shown on the website. If you want me to take a picture of my father's medal I will make sure that the double knot is hanging properly. The double knot on the medal without the BSA on the eagle in the medal shown on the website is all bunched up which is not a proper way to display this medal. Douglas Fir Green (talk) 16:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

"Only" President?

I'm pretty certain I recall contemporary sources stating that Bill Clinton was an Eagle Scout back around when he was first elected. Now, whether the BSA later rescinded it or not based on his conduct I don't know, but I'm pretty certain he received it. 加持 (talk) 05:31, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Ford is the ONLY President who was an Eagle. Clinton was only in Cub Scouts. JFK was a Star Scout. For more see List_of_notable_Scouts#Boy_Scouts_of_America and List_of_Eagle_Scouts_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)#Incorrectly_regarded_as_Eagle_Scout; so if you saw something that said Clinton was an Eagle, it was simply WRONG. — Rlevse • Talk • 09:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

More at Talk:List of Scouts/List of Presidents of the United States involved in Scouting. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:51, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Obama

I removed the statement about Obama's signature. This appears to happen whenever there is a new president due to a delay in signature authorization. See http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/eaglescouts.asp. In the long run, this isn't notable or important.

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 11:35, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Well Obama certainly took longer than most to start signing them. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Still not notable. We have not documented the date began by any other president (or have we?) as it does not add value to the article. Its only purpose in the article would be as an axe to grind. Bakkster Man (talk) 12:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I have been looking over forums, newspapers and the like, but there is nothing on this for other presidents. I would not be surprised to see that Nixon's signature remained through 1974. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 13:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

You can call it WP:OR but personal experience in being an advancement chair tells me Obama took longer than most to make the change. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:02, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the issue is that it provides no encyclopedic purpose, and its primary intent is as a dig at Obama. Note WP:UNDUE, we spend only one sentence in the entire article mentioning that the US President signs Eagle Certificates, and only 4 sentences including that one discussing the Certificates as a whole. Any delay by the sitting PotUSA in signing Certificates does not seem to be worth spending 20% of the Certificate section discussing. If the section were longer, perhaps it could be discussed, if there was a valid argument that the discussion was WP:NPOV. Perhaps usage of WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, again if there were an argument that there was encyclopedic value. That requires someone prove it is notable beyond the purpose of criticism of Obama (see WP:SOAP). Bakkster Man (talk) 21:25, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Citations in lead section removal

I have removed the citations in the lead sections, because they were redundant and the manual of style advices us not to use them here only if strongly needed (WP:LEADCITE).
Sincerely, NikitaUtiu (talk) 10:41, 30 July 2010 (UTC).