Talk:Gloster Meteor

NF Meteors

This article is completely lacking information on NF Meteors as well as Meteor variants. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 05:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Gloster Meteor vs. Messerschmidt Me-262

In both articles about the Gloster Meteor and the Messerschmitt Me 262 it is claimed that the particular plane was the first operational jet fighter. Both can't be true. From the articles I got the following first flight dates:

• Me 262: 18 July 1942
• Meteor: 5 March 1943

I suggest to change the leading section of the Gloster Meteor article to reflect that the Messerschmidt was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter and the Gloster Meteor was the first UK and Allied jet-powered fighter. Any thoughts about that? MikeZ 16:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I have watched several programs on the Military channel/history, have studied it, and know for a fact that the Me-262 was operational before the Meteor. This must be changed. Signed, LWE Student.

Per the respective Wikipedia pages and other sources (Profile publications, Green's Great Book of Fighters), both aircraft became operational in late July-August 1944. The difference of a few days/weeks sounds like a tie to me. I have written it as a tie in both articles unless some can present (and cite!) very credible evidence otherwise. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 21:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I had a discussion with another user about the Me 262 being the world's first jet fighter, prior to the Meteor. Putting together the dates from both articles, I came up with to following.

Maiden flights:

• Me 262: 18 April 1941 with piston engines, 18 July 1942 with jet engines
• Meteor: 5 March 1943

Introduction to the troops ("going operational")

• Me 262: April 1944
• Meteor: June 1944

So, the Me 262 was flying earlier than the Meteor by quite a big margin of several months, and additionally being given to the troops earlier (although by a rather small margin of some weeks). I propose to keep both articles consistent with this information. Thanks. MikeZ 07:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Another view

Michael Shrimpton wrote: (John W R Taylor, Aircraft Aircaft, Hamlyn, 1974,. 4th ed., pages 104-9, see also the standard reference works on the Gloster Meteor listed below, which give the delivery dates of the first aircraft in June 1944 to 616 Squadron). The German Propaganda Ministry claimed that the Me 262 was first, but the most recent research by the RAF Museum suggests October 1944 at as a the most realistic date for service entry (conversation with the author). The Museum publicly claims a 'combat' in July, but this turns out on inquiry to have been a chance encounter by an Me 262 prototpye on test, which does not seem to have been armed. There is no reliable record of it opening fire, although it may have entered into a mock dogfight with the unarmed Mosquito. On any view this was scarcely operational service.

The Meteor first entered service with 616 Squadron the preceding month, but several weeks were taken for work-up.

There are Nazi era records suggesting combat with the USAAF in August 1944, but Nazi era records are vulnerble to falsification for propaganda purposes and no one appears to have done a reconciliation with USAAF records.

The respected Editor of Janes All the World's Aircraft John W R Taylor, with the aid of respected researcher Charles Gibbs-Mith exhaustively analysed RAF and Luftwaffe records in the mid-1960s and published their conclusions in 1967 (Aircraft Aircraft, cited supra, the book was aimed at a general readership but is well-written and researched by the world's most published aviation author at that time). They place service entry for the Gloster Meteor Mk 1 as July 27 1944. The claim that the Me 262 was first has been endlessly recycled but is simply untrue, indeed it could even be said that the Me 262 was never truly operatoinal, as the Germans lagged behind Great Britain in advanced nickel alloy research and were never able to make a reliable turbojet engine. Moreover the Me 262 was unstable in engine out conditions, which it experienced fairly often, since the Jumo 004 was normally good for about 12 hours (and that included the delivery flight). In practice the Me 262 was a single-mission airplane, which would normally be expected to remain operational after an intensive day of combat.

This whole line of argument belongs here not in the article. See Wikiguides as to appropriate use of the encyclopedia. Bzuk 012:34 31 January 2007 (UTC).

More of the continuing argument

Michael Shrimpton wrote: "Although the German Me 262 flew first, many commentators have been confused by the fact that the first prototype had piston engines, and the first jet engines, a BMW design, were unreliable, contributing to the lengthy delays in bringing the 262 into service. It did not enter operational service until October 1944, although there are German claims, unconfirmed by Allied records, that the trials and development unit engaged in air combat in August 1944. Either way the British Gloster Meteor, although slower and aerodynamically less advanced, was the first into service. It was produced in quantity and in F Mk. 8 configuration became a sucessful ground attack fighter during the Korean War. " Bzuk 23:34 3 February 2007 (UTC).

..Look Michael Shrimpton, here are some dates for you:

• 1.) Me-262 prototype first flight: Powered by Jumo 210 prop engine: April 18th 1941
• 2.) Me-262 with both BMW 003 and Jumo prop engine first flight: March 25th 1942
• 3.) RLM/Luftwaffe order for 15 pre-production fighters May 1942
• 4.) Me-262 with only Jumo 004 jet engines first flight: July 18th 1942 (or EIGHT MONTHS before the Meteor's first flight)
• 5.) Me-262 squadron forms in April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 at Lechfeld in Bavaria

Sources?

World War II Fighting Jets, Jeffery Ethell & Alfred Price ISBN 1-55750-940-9 German Jets 1944-1945, Manfred Griehl, ISBN 1-85367-356-0

The FIRST recorded flight of a Meteor was by the fifth, Halford H.1 engined, prototype DG206 at Cranwell on 5 March 1943.

ANY flights before that were by the G.40, (the firs of which was W4041, out of Cranwell on 15 May 1941). The G.40 IS NOT the Meteor.

Quite frankly I'm getting sick of Shrimpton's revisionalist false histories.

--Evil.Merlin 01:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Air Facts and Feats (Mason and Windrow) 1970:

"The Me 262A-1A entered operational service on 3rd October 1944; a test unit was expanded and renamed Kommando Nowotny under the command of Maj. Walter Nowotny - and became operational on that date"

"The first two aircraft were delivered on 12th July 1944 to the squadron (616 Sqn).... The first combat sortie was flow from Manston by the squadron on 27th July 1944 against V-1 flying bombs but was unsuccessfull owing to gun-firing difficulties.

Strange the book states the Me 262 as the first jet to enter operational service with any air force and then gives a first combat date of July 44 for the Meteor !! MilborneOne 22:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Gloster Meteor and Me 262 claims

Michael Shrimpton- stop these constant revisions on the article pages, it is considered vandalism. I asked you to take the issue to the relevant discussion pages. That's the place to hash out controversies. Bzuk 12:34 6 February 2007

Without drawing down 'Holy fire', Bill, please consider Michaels' argument in view of: a. Precise dates for events in Nazi Germany , summer 1944-spring 1945, are OFTEN not verifiable. The reasons: 1. Records were ALTERED to place, or remove, participants from events prosecuted. German military staff were ordered to attend, slave labour conferences to render them complicit. In order not to explain that someone was a powerless bystander at an event discussing slave labour, documetation ,is 'produced' that he was flying the Me262 on a certain date, for example.

I refer you to Robert Jacksons' Nuremburg summaries. Not only were the Nazis masters at altering fact, some records were altered to protect the truly innocent.

Michael, Bill, would you accept the Scottish verdict of 'not proven', given the nature of the evidence ?

regardsOpuscalgary 20:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Me 262 v Gloster Meteor

Please note that over 80% of these "We will take action, Michael" edits come from my fellow Canadians. Given our tiny worldwide overall membership, this is SCARRRY. Fellows, Please break clean, before the rest of the world assumes we have been "winter bit by the Wendigo..!"\ Opuscalgary 17:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Michael, having been tagged teamed by these guys this month, they re not pro German, just CDN's who believe everything written. Innocence!.

At the AVRO ARROW site, you will see what I mean.

Caio Opuscalgary 02:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Meteor v 262

The April and June dates are both wrong.

First flight dates for Meteor and 262 (with a Jumo piston engine, don't forget) are correct.

April 1944 is correct for deivery of pre-production airplanes (Me 262A-Os) to III./EJG2 (Alfred price, Flightjournal.com), as part of the test and training program, but query how reliable the pre-production Jumos 004s were - even when 'operational' in October the engines could barely take a day of combat, when delivery and test flights are added in.

It is far from clear the EJG planes were armed. Those big 30 mils were heavy, as was the ammo, and, the Jumo 004 was grossly underpowered - not much mroe than 500 horsepower equivalent, and even that could only be delivered for short periods. With unreliable and underpowered engines, and no trained jet pilots, it would make sense to cut weight, and fly unarmed. It would also stretch engine life.

June 1944 is correct for delivery of the first production Meteors to the RAF (616), but they were not operational until July 27th.

There were initial problems with the British Hispano 20 mils, which were an improved version with a higher rate of fire. They did tend to jam.

Price claims 26th July for this mysterious unarmed encounter with a Mossie. If it happened (British records do not appear to support this claim, which presumably is why no RAF crew can be named) it was an unared PR Mossie stooging over Lechfield for a looksee. The 262 was clearly an A-O, and very clearly unarmed, but I doubt whether a Mossie was encountered at all. The date (one day before the Meteor went operational) is highly suspicious, and this encounter only features in books after the Janes' research in the 1960s. (Michael Shrimpton 20:18, 10 February 2007 (UTC)).

Reply

Quoting from a number of websites

In April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld in Bavaria as a test unit to introduce the Me 262 into service and train a core of pilots to fly it. Major Walter Nowotny was assigned as Commander in July 1944, and the unit redesignated Kommando Nowotny. Kommando Novotny was essentially a trials and development unit, however it still holds the distinction of being the worlds first jet fighter squadron.

and also:

• Price, Alfred. "Sleek and Deadly: The Messerschmitt Me 262." Flight Journal, February 2007. p. 36-37. Quote: "In April (1944), a service test unit, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld in Bavaria...On July 20 (1944), after a short training, the 3rd Staffel, Kampfgeschwader 51 moved to Chateaudun in France with nine Me 262s... on July 26, Lt. Alfred Schreiber had a turning fight with a Mosquito of No. 544 Squadron."
• Smith, J. Richard. Messerschmitt: An Aircraft Album. New York: Arco Publishing, 1971. ISBN 0-668-02505-5. p. 103. Quote: "On 25 July 1944, a Me 262 from EK262 recorded the world's first interception of an enemy aircraft by a jet fighter. A photo-reconnaissance Mosquito from No. 544 Squadron RAF was flying over the Munich area when the observer, F/O Lobban spotted an enemy aircraft in the distance. The pilot, F/Lt Wall, quickly accelerated the machine, but was surprised to see that the enemy was still closing rapidly. After evading five firing passes from the Me 262, Wall managed to dive into a cloud bank, eventually crash landing the Mosquito back at Fermo, near Venice." These are reference sources that should not be dismissed.

Probably more indicative of historian's views are the latest reference sources on the Gloster Meteor:

• Ashley, Glenn. Meteor in Action. Carrollton, Texas: Squadron/Signal Publications Inc., 1995. ISBN 0-89747-332-9.
• Bowyer, Chaz. Gloster Meteor. London: Ian Allen Ltd., 1985. ISBN 0-7110-1477-9.
• Butler, Tony. Gloster Meteor. Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire, United Kingdom: Hall Park Books Ltd., 2001. ISBN 1-85780-230-6.
• Caruana, Richard J. and Franks, Richard A. The Gloster & AW Meteor. Kingsway, Bedford, United Kingdom: SAM Publications, 2004. ISBN 0-9533465-8-7.
• Jones, Barry. Gloster Meteor. Ramsbury, Marlborough, Wiltshire, United Kingdom: The Crowood Press Ltd., 1998. ISBN 1-86126-162-4.

None of these sources or authors makes the claim that the Gloster Meteor was the first operational jet fighter. Bzuk 22:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

"Service conversion of the Me 262 was placed under Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder's Erprobungskommando 262 at Lechfeld, to where the unit moved on 21 December 1943, with pilots drawn from 8. and 9./ZG 26. The EKdo 262 was given a batch of pre-production Me 262A-0 aircraft, and finally got into the swim of operations in the early summer of 1944. Thierfelder was killed in combat with 15th Air Force Mustangs over Bavaria on 18 July, and his place was taken by Hauptmann Neumeyer." Donald, David: World Air Power - Warplanes of the Luftwaffe, Aerospace Publishing Ltd, 1994, 254, ISBN 1-874023-56-5, p.236 --MoRsE 01:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Does this information finally settle the dispute over operational introduction of the Me 262 and Meteor? Bzuk 01:14, 14 February 2007(UTC).

I found a little more too from the same source:

"The RAF brought back its first confirmation of the Me 262's existence on 25 July, when a de Havilland Mosquito of No. 544 (PR) Squadron was intercepted near Munich, Flight Lieutenant A. E. Wall and his navigator Flying Officer A. S. Lobban escaping with difficulty. Equipped with Messerschmitt Me 262A-2a fighter-bombers, the Einsatzkommando Schenk (Major Wolfgang Schenk) was formed at Lechfeld in July, before posting to the Normandy invasion front. The unit was based at Châteudun, Etampes and Creil, before pulling back to Juvincourt, near Reims, in late August. It was on 28 August 1944 that Allied fighter pilots downed the first Me 262 to be lost in combat: near Brussels, Major Joseph Myers and his wingman, Lieutenant M. D. Croy Jr, of the US 78th Fighter Group bounced Oberfeldwebel Lauer's Me 262 to force it down in a field."Donald, David: World Air Power - Warplanes of the Luftwaffe, Aerospace Publishing Ltd, 1994, 254, ISBN 1-874023-56-5, p.236 --MoRsE 01:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Now to the Meteor: "The first operational jet fighter squadron was No. 616, based at Culmhead, Somerset, which was equipped with Spitfire VIIs when its first two Meteor F.Is arrived on 12 July 1944. On 21 July the Squadron moved to Manston, Kent, receiving more Meteors on 23 July to form a detached flight of seven. The first operational sorties were flown on 27 July, and on 4 August, near Tonbridge, Flying Officer Dean destroyed the first V-1 flying bomb to be claimed by a jet fighter, using the Meteor's wingtip to tip it over into a spin after the aircraft's four 20-mm cannon had jammed. On the same day, Flying Officer Roger shot down a second V-1 near Tenterden." Mondey, David: "British Aircraft of World War II", Aerospace Publishing Ltd, 1994, 239, ISBN 1-85152-668-4, p. 120. --MoRsE 01:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Gloster Trent-Meteor EE227.jpg

Image:Gloster Trent-Meteor EE227.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Specifications

It is an error with values of the Climbing rate in the is the section Specifications: $2155ft/min\neq 24.6m/s$

New Infobox image?

how about this picture for the infobox?. Sorruno (talk) 15:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I do like the dynamic image, but IMO it's less representative of the type: late radar & 2 seater. The current pic strikes me as more typical, if less visually interesting. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 02:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Test Pilots

Obviously it offends your sensibilities, Trekphiler, but why shouldn't John Grierson get a mention when Michael Daunt does? 110.32.117.58 (talk) 10:28, 31 January 2010 (UTC). Sorry, forgot to log in Lexysexy (talk) 10:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Three reasons. One, he didn't make the very first flight, which deserves a mention; two, it looked like it was only mentioned because it was the first U.S. flight; & three, it looked like it was only because he was American. These last two don't rise to notable, IMO. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 21:57, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, mate, you're just showing the narrowness of your research. I agree with your first reason; two, it certainly was the first US flight, but by a TP intimately involved with the Meatbox development; and, three, JG most certainly wasn't Yank, he was a pioneer Brit (Scots) aviator, which you would have seen had you followed the link to his mention. I think he deserves recognition in this article.Lexysexy (talk) 09:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll own to not looking further. And I wouldn't squawk to mention of JG's involvement in the project. It appears, tho, he was more concerned later, so his mention, by name, at such an early stage for such a trivial reason remains unwarranted IMO. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 19:22, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I have to support treks position the pilot of the first US flight is not really notable to the Meteor, more importantly EE210 the first flown by Daunt which is not mentioned. Griersons E.28/39 flights were probably far more important. MilborneOne (talk) 20:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Why, thank you. (I love being right. ;p) Lex, if you've got anything on JG, why not put it on his page? It looks a bit thin on this subject, so it wouldn't hurt. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 21:11, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Looks as tho' I've been suckered into yet another 2v1, with predictable results. BTW, thanks Trek for your work on JG's page. I believe he had significant input to the development of the Meteor, but at the moment I'm stuck because I can't find a copy of "Jet Flight" - I'll be back when I do. As a matter of interest, you blokes aren't ginger beers, perchance? Lexysexy (talk) 05:12, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't a suck, I didn't see him in the sun, either. ;p No worries on the add, he seemed to have earned it, & I did suggest it. ;D "Ginger beer"? (Should I be offended? ;p) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 06:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Offended? - hope not! Engineer of the aviation or flight persuasions.Lexysexy (talk) 23:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Offended? No, just never head the term. (Brit milspeak, I presume?) And no again, just a longtime aviation buff (who somehow managed to miss your cmt til now... Clearly my vision isn't fit for flying. ;D ) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 18:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Survivors

Under this head we say there are four aircraft flying in the UK, not counting WA 591 though it should be airborne this year. Three of the four are the two M-B T.7s (WA638 and WL419) plus the T.T.20 (ex N.F.11) WM167. What is number four? I've done a quick trawl through Wrecks and Relics, but haven't spotted it. Anyone know its identity, owner, base etc?TSRL (talk) 18:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Good question only G-BWMF/WA591 and G-LOSM/WM167 are currently registered, as you said WA591 is still being restored and WM167 has a permit to fly and the two Martin-Baker machines, so that makes three! MilborneOne (talk) 20:23, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Meteor vs 262

I am sure someone will correct me if I have got it wrong ? I have always understood "operational" to mean ; Accepted into routine service by the operator ( RAF or Luftwaffe ) as being ready to undertake the role they have specified . It is clear that the Me262 flew first by a margin of more than a year , but , the Gloster Meteor was declared operational by the RAF on 27th July 1944 and the Me262 was declared operational by the Luftwaffe on 4th October 1944 . Regardless of first flights , training and developement squadrons , unarmed encounters etc etc , the Meteor was the first operational jet fighter in the world ! SM527RR (talk) 04:49, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

See extensive background on this subject in the archives. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:09, 12 March 2010 (UTC).

Full stop

Can we get agreement on how the marks are to be identified? I'm seeing F 1, F.1, & F1 in the various incarnations... (I hope this isn't also happening on other Brit fighter pages. 80) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 15:23, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

It depends on the source they all can be right! the modern version is F1 but it is not contempary with the Meteor. Problem is it is a short form of F Mark 1 which can also be F Mk 1, F Mk.1, F.Mk.1, F.1, F1, Mk 1, Mk. 1 and sometimes just Meteor I depending on who shortened it! although the version used in this article with a gap is not one of the normal contractions. I prefer to use the current format which would be F1 but not everybody agrees! MilborneOne (talk) 19:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I'm happy to accept any of them, I'm just wondering if there isn't (or should be) a guideline or something on which to use, or at least an agreement to use the same one on any given page. (I default to F.1, for it being an abbreviation, myself. ;D) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 22:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

NF14 Dimensions

The article states "the NF 14 was based on the NF 12 but had an even longer nose to accommodate new equipment pushing total length to 15.5 metres". I believe this is incorrect. Buttler and Buttler (Gloster Meteor: Britain's Celebrated First-Generation Jet) quote 15.21m / 14' 11" as a recent actual measurement. The 1955 Observers Book of Aircraft also states 14' 11" for the NF14. 15.21m / 14' 11" is the same length as the NF12. Buttler and Buttler explain the apparent extra length as an illusion.

15.5m is about 50' 10.25", a figure I've never seen referring to any Meteor. I have seen 51' 4" and 52' 4" (15.62m and 15.92m) given as the length of the NF14. Sir smellybeard (talk) 23:22, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Mason's The British Fighter since 1912 gives 51 ft 4 in for the NF14, as does Derek James in Gloster Aircraft since 1917 (although James does quote 15.5 m for the metric conversion). James gives NF.11 as 48 ft 6 in, and the NF12 as 49 ft 11 in. The 1955 Observers may need caution as the actual length would have been classfied.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I do realize that the 1955 Observers may not be the most reliable source (for a few reasons). There is so much unreliable stuff out there (and so many awful drawings) that I think a set of pilot's notes for the NF14 would be the right kind of source to try. Regardless of the actual length, "15.5 metres" is the kind of wooly language that illustrates why metric really should not be used as the primary statement of a dimension in this kind of historical context. Sir smellybeard (talk) 11:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)