Talk:Gloster Meteor

890 RAF meteors lost: source ?

It should be given a source for that unbelievable high number (measured by modern safety standards) (and that number refers only to one, the main operator, nation). Thanks in advance, --88.217.113.132 (talk) 05:34, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Seems about right, the 1950s were not a good time for flight training in the new fangled jets. MilborneOne (talk) 13:42, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

It's already referenced "Civil Airworthiness Certification: Former Military High-Performance Aircraft, Federal Aviation Administration, p. 2–40" here. (Hohum ^@) 15:48, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

• These are the totals for all RAF types but it shows the high accident rate:
• 1946 - 1012
• 1947 - 420
• 1948 - 424
• 1949 - 439
• 1950 - 380
• 1951 - 490
• 1952 - 507
• 1953 - 483
• 1954 - 452
• 1955 - 305
• 1956 - 270
• 1957 - 233
• 1958 - 128
• 1959 - 102

We also need to remember the high loss of aircrew (and others killed). MilborneOne (talk) 16:13, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

The Meteor was flown in UK weather and winter bad weather almost certainly accounted for a large proportion of the losses. In some cases airworthy aircraft were abandoned by parachute because the only airfields within range were fogged-in and lacked GCA. Prior to the introduction of the Clean Air Act fog was much more common in the UK than it is today and was one of the reasons the BLEU at Bedford was formed which went on to develop autoland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.55.51 (talk) 09:50, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Only post war performace for the Meteor

Why is only the post WW2 era performace represented in the specifications? ME-262 had better performance than Meteor in WW2. So it can mislead the users.--Creator Edition (talk) 11:16, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

It's because only one variant is permitted in the Specifications section, and that's generally a major production variant. Unlike the Me 262, the Meteor had significant post-war production, and thus a larger group of variants to chose from. BilCat (talk) 11:26, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

But it somehow mislead the readers. In history forums/topics many people came with the post war performance of Meteors (based on this article) as a proof for its performance superiority (speed altitude etc.) over the ME262. WW2 era Meteor had worse poerformance than ME262.--Creator Edition (talk) 07:31, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

While I understand your objections, that's not really a good reason to change what's done on Wikipedia. Wikipedia assume a basic intelligence and competence of readers, and aren't geared towards the lowest common denominator of readers who don't or can't read complex ideas for comprehension. What's done elsewhere is really out of our control. All you can do at those forums is to try to inform them of their mistakes, especially since the marks used in the specs are clearly stated in each article, and the articles should already be clear regarding.the different timeframes involved. But none of that precludes anyone else on Wikipedia from disagreeing with me, and agreeing that the older specs should be used, for whatever reasons. That's how consensus works on Wikipedia. (For the record, a slew of new users suddenly showing up to support you would be suspicious. That has happened before, and Wikipedia has ways of dealing with that.) BilCat (talk) 09:15, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

The place to cover the performance of the WWII Meteors (F1, F3) with respect to the Me262 (or any WWII era aircraft?) is in the text. Anyone who blindly takes a section out of a wikipedia article without checking context is "onto a loser" as the phrase has it. The F.4 is more typical of Meteor usage (looking at the list of operators) for the immediate post-war era than the handful or earlier models flown in 1944/45.GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:30, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

The Mark 8 that the specs are for is probably the most representative (and probably saw the most action - in the Korean War and for Egypt and Israel in the Suez war).Nigel Ish (talk) 11:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

GraemeLeggett has a great idea. There are other topics where comparisons with competitors exist (Some video cameras mobile phones , cars etc...) Why should be an airplane different in this regard? After all, it was also an industrial product...Wasn't it?--Creator Edition (talk) 21:13, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

You should re-read my comment again. If a source discusses the performance of the F.1 relative to Me 262 then that text belongs in the appropriate section of the text. It's not carte blanche to create a comparison - which would be synthesis or OR. GraemeLeggett (talk) 21:37, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

i'm thinking about making some changes to the page but i want to ask if everyone is ok with me doing it

the source is here https://www.bcar.org.uk/gloster-meteor#:~:text=The%20Meteor%20was%20initially%20used,accounted%20for%2014%20flying%20bombs. i did some editing on the spitired page that got undid because i didnt have a good enough source im just making sure first. Redrhuadri (talk) 10:23, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

oops, spelling error, it should say i did some editing on the spitfires page that got undid. Redrhuadri (talk) 10:27, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

It would help if you actually told us what changes you are proposing. - Nick Thorne ^talk 11:05, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

A good question to ask if you're evaluating a source, is to start by thinking about who wrote the text. For your link, we have no author to the article, and if we look at the "contact us" page, we'll find that it's an informal project, online-only, self-published. A source like that site would be most relevant if the article was about the site in some way but this article is not. So check out that fact that you have in your URL, the 14 bombs bit. You can try searching "Gloster Meteor" and "14 bombs" and you'll find this site which is all user-submitted and still not a great source:

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Gloster_Meteor#cite_note-61

But we do have a citation now for a published article. There is even a link to a pdf of the article! If you click the Geoffery link you'll find that it's dead. The first step you should try when finding dead links for a valuable source is to check archives. The Internet Archive is the broadest and easiest to search and sure enough the published article is available below:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110722181406/https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1945/1945%20-%201397.html Rjjiii (talk) 03:14, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Mk summarised in the specifications section

Per WP:WikiProject Aircraft/page content#Aircraft specification as the relevant style guide for this article, the variant of an aircraft summarised in the specifications section using {{Aircraft specs}} would "Usually ... be the most famous/noteworthy/numerous variant" of that aircraft. As the Meteor is most famous/noteworthy for being the only jet used operationally by the Allies during the war (the lead says it all), I contend the F.3 Mk should be so summarised, as it was the Mk that saw the most prolific wartime service. I have made a start on a template:

---

Profile views of the Meteor F.4.

Data from Aircraft of World War II: development, weaponry, specifications, Gloster Meteor, World War II fighting jets

General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 41 ft 3 in (12.57 m)
• Wingspan: 43 ft 0 in (13.11 m)
• Height: 13 ft 0 in (3.96 m)
• Wing area: 374 sq ft (34.7 m²)
• Empty weight: 10,542 lb (4,782 kg)
• Gross weight: 13,925 lb (6,316 kg)
• Fuel capacity: 325 imp gal (1,480 L)
• Powerplant: 2 × Rolls-Royce Derwent Series I turbojet, 2,000 lbf (8.9 kN) thrust each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 458 mph (737 km/h, 398 kn) at 30,000 ft (9,100 m)
• Range: 980 mi (1,580 km, 850 nmi) internal fuel, 1,340 mi (2,160 km) with 180 imp gal (820 L) drop tank
• Endurance: 40-45 minutes
• Service ceiling: 43,000 ft (13,000 m)
• Wing loading: 34 lb/sq ft (170 kg/m²)

Armament

• Guns: 4 × 20 mm Hispano MkIII cannons

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References

Citations

References

Bibliography

• Bowyer, Chaz. Gloster Meteor. Shepperton, Surrey: Ian Allen Ltd, 1985. ISBN 0-7110-1477-9.
• Ethell, Jeffrey L. & Price, Alfred. World War II fighting jets. Annapolis, Maryland: Naval Institute Press, 1994. ISBN 1-55750-940-9.
• Jackson, Robert. Aircraft of World War II: development, weaponry, specifications. London: Amber Books Ltd, 2003. ISBN 1-85605-751-8.

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The use of the F.4 line drawing is appropriate as the airframe and wings were not altered between the F.3 and F.4, just the engines and cockpit pressurisation; and later ventral and wingtip fuel tanks not depicted in the drawing. 122.150.82.214 (talk) 06:50, 14 November 2022 (UTC).

• Oppose The F.8 variant is by far the most numerous. Fame and noteworthy status is very subjective, as an aviation enthusiast (pilot/engineer) I wouldn't immediately associate the Meteor with WWII, more a 'fighter of the fifties' as its inclusion in Bill Gunston's book of the same name supports. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 11:20, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  I don't believe Gunston agrees with you. In the aforementioned book Gunston says the Meteor "was really a fighter of the ’40s", saying it was the "First jet fighter to be developed outside Germany, ... and in fact was serving with a first-line RAF fighter squadron and destroying flying-bomb (V-1) cruise missiles two months before any Me 262, or any other German jet, had reached any regular Luftwaffe fighter squadron". He also provides extensive coverage of the Meteor in his British fighters of World War II, Fighters, 1914-1945, The illustrated directory of fighting aircraft of World War II and The illustrated encyclopedia of combat aircraft of World War II. Additionally, in his World War II German aircraft Gunston compares the Meteor to the Me 262 as a contemporary of the latter. In his The jet age, Gunston mentions the Meteor eleven times: one time about post-war experimental conversions, one comparison with a similar post-war design, one comparison with similar post-war engine design and eight times about the Meteor's wartime development and service, the first mention being the Meteor was "the first jet ever to go into operational service." 122.150.82.214 (talk) 02:39, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

User:Nimbus227, do you have any sources that state the Meteor was really a fighter of the '50s? Because Gunston has clearly stated otherwise. 122.150.82.214 (talk) 00:07, 26 November 2022 (UTC).

User:Nimbus227, do you have any sources that state the Meteor was really a fighter of the '50s? 122.150.82.214 (talk) 23:21, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support, agree with what it says at the top, "the Meteor is most famous/noteworthy for being the only jet used operationally by the Allies during the war" so this is an improvement. 86.25.109.156 (talk) 13:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Nimbus. BilCat (talk) 00:53, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Nimbus' comments highly apposite - unless the article is to be split (in the same way as the articles on the marks of the Spitfire the Mk 8 is clearly the definitive version. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:57, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, for more or less the same reason Grumman F-14 Tomcat features the F-14D, not the Vietnam-era F-14A. The Meteor's wartime service amounted to a footnote as an operational prototype, and the template above would need to account for the use of the Rolls-Royce Welland in the initial F.3, which would just complicate things. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 13:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Untitled

The article is vague as to what the plane did during WW II vs. after those years.

• Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first operational fighter aircraft and "the only jet fighter to see air-to-air combat in World War Two".

Peter K Burian (talk) 12:19, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Is this part of the thread above or a new section? Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 12:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The article doesn't cover 616 Squadron's wartime use of the Meteor very well, true. Quite a good source is 'Jet Pioneers' by Air Cdr Graham Pitchfork, in RAF Salute (Key Publications, 2011), pp.29-33. The 262 was only the first operational jet fighter by a matter of days, if at all, and during 1944 it served only with an operational trials unit, which failed to achieve its main assigned task -- to shoot down a British Mosquito. The unit's commander, Walter Nowotny, was shot down and killed by US Mustangs in the autumn. Meanwhile the Meteor was serving with a regular line squadron (it was much easier to convert pilots on to the Meteor because it didn't have the 262's alarming high-Mach vices, mainly the centre of pressure moving aft and forcing you into a fatal nosedive) and was gaining air-to-air kills against enemy V-1 flying bombs in August 1944, before the 262 is known to have had any successes. The pilotless V-1s couldn't evade, but they were fast. The 262 then took no part in the war till early spring 1945, by which time 616 Squadron's Meteors were deployed on the Continent. German fighters chose never to challenge the Meteors, even though the Meteors, once released for use over enemy territory, carried out ground attacks against German airfields. 262s appeared very rarely over the British 21st Army Group area and didn't stay long enough to be intercepted -- they were employed almost entirely against US bomber formations, though they did make some unsuccessful dive-bomber attacks against the Remagen bridge on the American front.

It's perhaps worth noting that the 262 should have entered service well ahead of the Meteor, but it was held back by development problems with the German axial-flow engine (problems foreseen by Frank Whittle, who regarded the simpler centrifugal engine as the 'brute force' solution to getting a reliable engine into service soonest -- bear in mind that the formidable MiG-15 of the Korean War had a Soviet-built Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal engine). The 262's engines had a life of just 12 hours. The Meteor's Rolls-Royce engines could go 150 hours before major overhaul. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:13, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Rumour Control

The Meteor was an extremely difficult aircraft to fly, as were all early & primitive military jets [eg. the South African mercenary flying a Soviet Mig-17 with a Russian instrument panel during the Biafran war, with a clipboard full of do's & don'ts]. Loss of mass due to fuel & ammunition usage certainly affected its performance. Its twin engines juxtaposition, even on later Mk. 7 & 8 aircraft, were probably the source of its particularly dangerous flying characteristics:

Halley records that in 1952 a Meteor was written off every 2 days on average, and a Meteor pilot was killed every 4 days, over a quarter of these deaths being due to a Meteor diving inexplicably into the ground on a cloudy day. Higges, Geoffrey. How Meteors Hit the Ground (p. 15).

The extremely common accident report was flying into the ground out of cloud. A pilot in cloud might turn, neglecting either speed, attitude or vertical speed, due to lack of visibility, and enter a spin or spiral dive as a result, whereupon the stick became hard to move at all. Even then the Meteor's weak structure demanded high-speed dives were recovered by gentle control movements.

Going after V1s or ground attack required straight flight, which is what the Meteor could do most safely, with less experienced pilots. Clearly emergencies, landing & taking off required extraordinary manoeuvres & changes of the controls, which were concomitantly difficult, and equally dangerous.

The Me-262 had much the same problems as prototypical Meteors, but the British deemed these to be too dangerous for use in combat. Lack of manpower was the main reason delaying the Me-262s combat debut, which otherwise could have occurred a year earlier. Similarly the reason why RAF Fighter Command did not have jet fighter squadrons in 1940 appears to have been the failure of wholly unscientific government ministers to have any understanding of military jet propulsion. Afourandy (talk) 13:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Please note that talk pages are not forums (Wikipedia:NOTFORUM) but places to discuss improvements to or problems with articles. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 07:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The British Gloster Meteor jet fighter was world's first operational jet fighter

Please emphasize the fact that the British Gloster Meteor jet was world's first operational jet fighter (July 1944) & not the German jet 188.29.236.102 (talk) 16:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Article content is based on published reliable sources. You have provided none. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)