Talk:Mosque–Cathedral of Córdoba

Why is this not Cordoba Cathedral?

I came to find information on Cordoba Cathedral, this building is a Catholic cathedral, why then is wikipedia calling it a mosque? Granted historically it was a mosque, but that should be a part of the entry (and if necessary a redirect). It looks like the entry has been nobbled? 92.28.173.173 (talk) 12:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The Cathedral is only a part of the whole building. When considered as a touristic sight, the building is called "mosque" (mezquita) even in Spain itself. --Jotamar (talk) 12:54, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

There is something very strange about this title, I agree. First, it is not a mosque. It hasn't been a mosque for 774 years. Also, according to the article itself, it was only a mosque in its middle period. It was first a church from 600 to 784 (184 years), then it was a mosque from 784 to 1236 (452 years), then a cathedral from 1236 to the present (774 years). Thus it has been a church for nearly a thousand years (968 years) and was a mosque for only 452 years. So identifying the building as a mosque in the title is misleading to the say the least.

Spanish usage aside, the building is more referred to in English as the Cathedral than by mosque. Some google searches in English: Cordoba Mosque: 2,080,000 results. Cordoba Cathedral -argentina: 2,650,000 results.

In Spanish google searches produce these results: Cordoba Mezquita: 5,720,000. Cordoba Catedral -argentina: 5,260,000.

While the Spanish nomenclature is interesting, it does not determine the use in English, e.g. Florence is not titles Fiorenza. EastmeetsWest (talk) 18:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Even more oddly, friends, the google search: Great Mosque of Cordoba has a puny result figure of only 288,000. So, whatever this article might be called, the present title is probably the worst possible one in English.EastmeetsWest (talk) 18:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with all those who think this is misnamed. It was built as a Christian church, was turned into a mosque, and then back into a church. It is currently a church. So why is this article called "the great mosque of cordoba"? Muslims aren't allowed to pray in there; just recently there was a violent incident when a group of them tried; police had to be called. It is not a mosque. It wasn't a mosque originally. This article is biased toward Islamic sensibilities. 99.231.201.11 (talk) 10:31, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Roman Temple

The pillars of the mezquita are Roman. This part of the building's history should be included in the article.--201.6.193.1 (talk) 07:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No longer a muslim place of worship

I think it should be noted somewhere that this is no longer a muslim place of worship as it is the property of the Roman Catholic Church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.84.204.196 (talk • contribs) 02:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I would question the above. It is a fact that a Christian Cathedral built within a Mosque would not allow Muslims to pray here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.205.194 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is, and the same applies to churches which have been conquered by islamic countries such as Hagia Sofia in Istanbul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.255.112.17 (talk • contribs) 19:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Or the St. Nicholas Cathedral in Nicosia, Cyprus which is now the Lala Mustafa Pasha Mosque. If I'm not mistaken, Muslims just can't have a congragrated prayer and have sermons there but they can just pray in small numbers. I remember this one Indian/Pakistani man (forgot his name) in the past that prayed in the Mezquita and he didn't mention about anyone stopping him. Yeah, I do think it's still strange though calling a cathedral "Mosque" - Muslims don't ring the bell to summon people to prayer but rather have muezzins to call out to others to congregrate and pray. During my visit to Cordoba, Spain, I remember seeing the Mezquita from far and was saying to a Muslim friend that he can pray there, thinking it was a mosque. However, as we approach closer, we notice that a church bell on the Giralda Tower (which was once a minaret) was calling out people to prayer, and when we got into "mosque" we notice that people were singing hymns and there was a crucifix. We were like - what is going on here? We felt tricked. It reminds me of the Mosque Church in Hungary, after seeing that Cordoban cathedral. --Fantastic4boy 05:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope Hagia Sofia is a museum and not a mosque anymore. Mayeb you can find better examples but this one is not pertinent. --Sugaar (talk) 09:36, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, Muslims can worship wherever we want; almost literally anywhere which is reasonably clean - so the "mosque/mezquita" easily satisfies that generic requirement. Secondly, by definition, Muslims are the ones that perform "Muslim prayers" - no one else. Hence, it is only the Muslims' view that matters as to where they can pray, and they believe that once a place has been declared a mosque, regardless of what you do to it, it can never be anything else. Others may well argue that it is not a mosque any longer, and you/they are free to do so - but it will not have any affect upon a Muslim's belief as to whether a place is a house of prayer or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The-pessimist (talk • contribs) 00:37, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever (that's POV if anything is). The fact is that the Cordoba Mosque belongs to the Catholic Church since many centuries ago and they actually forbid Muslim (or any non-Catholic) rites inside, we like it or not. (Note: don't take me wrong, I think it should be a secular historical building, public property, and not belong to any religious entity nor be anymore used for cult of any sort. The example of Hagia Sofia/Aya Sofia is the way to go, in my opinion). --Sugaar (talk) 11:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

the mihrab?

the article mentions that the mihrab doesn't point towards mecca; where does it point? Kit 03:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

If I remember well, to the City of Damascus, where the Omeya dinasty came from. All the mosques in the Muslim Spain were oriented the same way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.34.161.145 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It does point to mecca, however without scientific measuring equipment it would have been a guestimate. NB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.126.114 (talk • contribs) 12:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesn´t point to Mecca. It does point to South. There several theories to explain that, but according to the fact that muslim were used to find the right direction for praying, the right one seems to be the former visigothic temple -It can´t be found any roman remains-, or the idea of showing mecca´s direction by showing the way to pilgrim. Anyway, there were just two mosque in Spain no-pointed to Mecca, both the Cordoba and Seville Alhama. All the rest, included those which were really close to the Major one were rightly pointed. --217.216.147.221 (talk) 22:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Mezquita

What is the meaning of the word "Mezquita"? I have heard it is derived from the word mosquito nest , and that muslims of the time should be swatted like mosquitos? worth looking into? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.126.114 (talk • contribs) 12:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

No. Mezquita means mosque. You've been talking to the wrong people. Chaikney 12:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

LOL Probably they were just joking with you. Mezquita does mean Mosque in Spanish. --Fantastic4boy 05:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

That is actually correct, in terms of the etymology of the word, but in modern day Spanish it merely means a mosque (incidentally, the English word was also derived from this mosquito swatting mentality the Christians had in that era towards the Muslims). The-pessimist (talk) 00:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Can any of you document that "mosquito" pseudo-etymology? I sincerely doubt it. For me it's obvious (Arabic) Mazjid > (Spanish) Mezquita > (English) Mosque (with possible intermediate words maybe in Mozarabic, Occitan, French and whatever). --Sugaar (talk) 11:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to correct myself re. the English origin of the word. It would seem it comes from French "mosquée" and this one from Italian "moschea" and Sicilian "muschea". Still they seem to be mere deformations of "masjid".

In Spanish hardly any word can end in "-t" or "-d" naturally so the addition of an "-a" (treated as femenine) is only natural (masjid > mezquit + a).

It's different, it seems to me, from "mosquito" that is the Spanish masculine for "little fly" ("mosca" = fly + "-ito" = masc. diminutive; "little fly" is actually said "mosquita", fem., as in the expression "mosquita muerta": a woman without character). --Sugaar (talk) 11:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The "mosquito" pseudo-etymology is pure nonsense. According to Joan Corominas (in his Breve diccionario etimológico de la lengua castellana; 'Brief etymological dictionary of the Spanish language'; Gredos, Madrid, 1996, p. 395) the word mezquita is derived from the Arabic masjid ('place of worship'), and it is first attested in the year 1098. – He also mentions a possible incorportation through the Armenian mzkit, brought from Levant by the Crusaders. Which would be rather odd, since at the time the Iberian peninsula had been dotted by mosques for almost four centuries.
See also Mosque#Etymology. - Regards, Ev (talk) 20:35, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed irrelevant comment

"... the Christian cathedral was surpressed, an occurence common during muslim occupations of Christian lands (e.g. Hagia Sophia and the Basillica of St. John in Syria, and numerous churches in Kosovo, Cyprus, Palestine, and Irag in mordern times)."

It's a pity people use Wikipedia as a soapbox for political remarks. I do not think many people would agree with calling Istanbul, Syria, Palestine or Iraq "Christian lands". What about the use of the Giralda in Sevilla by Christians after the 13th century ? But more importantly: is this relevant ? I know Islamophobia is all the fashion right now but please, could Wikipedia remain a neutral reference work ?85.90.69.35 08:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious, is there some specific meaning to "was surpressed"? It seems like a poor choice of words. Was it forbidden to enter? Was it razed to the ground? Something else? A cathedral can't really be supressed. I don't know the answer, so I won't edit it, but someone should.

--71.141.117.26 (talk) 07:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Article name: "Mezquita" or "Cordoba mosque"?

Note: Lady Byron created the article as "Mezquita" at 18:47, 6 July 2004 (UTC)

I'm a little puzzled by the article's name. "Mezquita" is just the Spanish term for "mosque" and therefore there are as many "mezquitas" as "mosques" are in the World. In Spanish the building is termed "la mezquita de Córdoba" (i.e. "Cordoba mosque"). Shouldn't this phrase "Cordoba mosque" be used in English as well? --Sugaar (talk) 09:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we can call it "the Mezquita (Mosque) with a church bell and crucifix". Does that sound contradictory or inflammatory or is it okay? --203.15.122.35 (talk) 08:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I assume that's a provocation that doesn't deserve any reply but anyhow, I noticed in French is called "Great Cordoba Mosque". In any case "Mezquita" alone seems meaningless because it just says "Mosque". --Sugaar (talk) 09:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

It would probably not please certain people if the Great Mosque of Cordoba was named as such (or similar) on Wikipedia; as they will probably be questioning why is it still so popular in the hearts of people all over the world as a Mosque, although it is has been in Christian hands for 800 of its 1200 year existence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by The-pessimist (talk • contribs) 00:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter much wether it's popular or not, I think. What matters is WP:NAME and the reality. We can't build an encyclopedia based on what is popular, that would not be serious. In any case, "Mezquita" alone is misleading. --Sugaar (talk) 04:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the first comment. The title of this article is wrong. The "mezquita of cordoba" means simply the mosque of cordoba, it is not called "Mezquita" as such.--Guzman ramirez (talk) 12:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Note: Guzman ramirez moved the article from "Mezquita" to "Mezquita de Córdoba" at 12:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not "Mezquita (Córdoba)"? The bracket scheme is in accordance with WP rules to disambiguate the place, and, even more importantly, this is actually the name of the structure used by most people all over the world: Mezquita. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 11:08, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Wigwam?

This is the opening sentence: "The construction of the wigwam started in approximately sixth century B.C" What is a wigwam doing in early medieval Europe? I thought wigwams were a structure specific to the indigenous people of North America —Preceding unsigned comment added by Provocateur (talk • contribs) 04:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy (talk) 15:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The current name violates Wikipedia policy. This is an English language dictionary. The common English name is Great Mosque of Cordoba. We do have policies. We ought to apply them.Historicist (talk) 18:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)historicist

Discussion

The closest parallel is probably Hagia Sophia. These are difficult issues, but although the mosque is now a cathedral, the great interest in it is generated by its magnificent architecture, and it was built as a mosque.Historicist (talk) 23:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Historicist.

Support

• Weak support, because Cordoba Cathedral is equally English and may well be more common. But there is no particular reason to use Spanish here; this should be moved. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support, because in Spain itself there are other mosques, and other places called Mezquita. --Jotamar (talk) 18:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
• Although not entirely sure of what the best title would be, the current one is clearly inappropriate, and "Great Mosque of Cordoba" is a marked improvement. - Ev (talk) 18:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Reasons in previous section. --Sugaar (talk) 10:48, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Wrong name

In fact, the city is not "Cordoba", but "Cordova". So, please, move to "Great Mosque of Cordova". --79.151.124.228 (talk) 18:35, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

This is an English language Encyclopedia. Cordoba has been the English name of this city for hundreds of years.Historicist (talk) 02:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)Historicist

This is indeed an English language encyclopedia; and the English for the city is Cordova. Thank you for inspiring me with the energy to fix this nonsense. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

What is "the English for the city" is what is used in English language publications. The sources for this article, the English language external links, Encarta (1), (2), Britannica and Columbia all use Cordoba or Córdoba, just as they (and we) do for the city. Any move would require evidence and should go through WP:RM. Knepflerle (talk) 22:31, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Fancy meeting you here. Since this was not a WP:RM discussion, it seems a strange coincidence. I would see no reason to respect the opinions of an WP:STALKer; I trust there is some other explanation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I was looking for a diff of a comment you made at the Poliziano page in your contributions when I noticed the move. This is a simple case of BRD - you made a bold move, I reverted it as I feel it was incorrect and backed this up with evidence. Now is time for discussion, not moving it back again with no reason based on policy or English usage given. If you want more people to be involved in the discussion, list it at WP:RM, but there is no consensus or evidence for a move from the established title yet. Knepflerle (talk) 22:56, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Our sources and the other cited references are not writing in unEnglish, so using Cordoba is not unEnglish. Such edits as my last one are not vandalism, so please do not refer to them as such. English is defined by usage, not your dictat. Knepflerle (talk) 23:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

English is determined by usage, and Cordova is English; what language does Knepferle imagine it to be? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• My copy of the Times Atlas has Córdoba. Google search seems to show a changeover to using the -b- in English. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:42, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen Cordova in a single modern English source, at least in British English, the other side of the Atlantic, I can't talk about. To me it has a rather archaic sound like calling Argentina "the Argentine".If the proper English name is Cordova, at least in the 21st century, this is something hasn't filtered through to a large part of the English speaking world. I think it would take some very good evidence that Cordova is still in sufficient use to warrant a change. English is as English does. Reynardthefox (talk) 22:25, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Move?

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was casting vote move to Great Mosque of Córdoba. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Great Mosque of Cordova → Great Mosque of Cordoba — Or to Great Mosque of Córdoba. See previous sections in this talk page. Please try to get this dispute sorted out. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• I prefer Cordova, having moved it here. The usage of atlases should not be unconditionally followed in text; many atlases use Roma or Firenze, because the local signage will. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
• I believe Anthony Appleyard has found one of Google Books' flaws: It doesn't select for English well. Forcing English by searching for city also shows that Cordova is still somewhat more common than Cordoba; the latter includes accented forms, as checking the results will show. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I can see no reason why the mosque should be treated differently to the city, which is at Córdoba, Spain. For that reason I would support a move to Great Mosque of Córdoba. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
    • I agree; the city should be moved. But one move discussion at a time. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

      <attempt at humor>That would be an amusing limitation.</attempt at humor> 199.125.109.102 (talk) 02:19, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

    • In any case, we're not discussing moving the city article, are we? A more relevant Google Books search would be "great mosque of cordoba" versus "great mosque of cordova", both of which give about the same number of hits (633 vs. 626 in favour of "Cordova). Jafeluv (talk) 12:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support move. Britannica, Encarta and Columbia all use "Córdoba" (see Knepflerle's evidence above). The sources used in this article use "Cordova" in some instances, but "Cordoba" or "Córdoba" are far more common: [1][2] (there's a third book that's used as a reference, but it has no preview available at Google Books). None of the external links use "Cordova". The evidence seems to be strongly in favour of "Córdoba", either with or without the accent. Jafeluv (talk) 12:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reconquista/United Spain

I had changed Reconquista - which is a politically charged name, however present it might be in Spanish historiography - to conquest, while still keeping the link to the 'Reconquista' article, in the first paragraph. I had also removed the epithet "King of United Spain" from the passage alluding to Charles V as the idea of a "United Spain" is also a modern construct, Charles V being sovereign over many different kingdoms, duchies and feuds throughout Europe and there being no institutional unification of even his Iberian territories.

Those changes have been undone by ShadowRangerRIT as can be seen. I should like to see them redone so as to actually make the article more neutral.

His excuse for rolling-back my changes is that the term "conquest" should imply questioning Spain's legitimity over Andalusian territory, which is pathetic, but completely understandable giving his own apparent national sympathies themselves constructed on land claims by people who didn't actually live on the land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.7.131.102 (talk) 17:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

My note on your talk page was relating to your addition of a paragraph to Reconquista that questioned the legitimacy of the current state of Spain. I rolled back your changes here for a similar reason, but I wasn't claiming that, in and of itself, "conquest" constituted a knock on the current Spanish government. "Conquest" vs. "Reconquista" was less of a problem, but it still sacrificed clarity in favor of your particular POV, and editors repeatedly inserting the same POV into multiple articles tend to get reverted in bulk. I have no idea where you came up with the idea that I'm somehow biased on the issue of "land claims by people who didn't actually live on the land." I suppose I do live in the U.S., which was originally constructed in a similar way, but then, if you go back far enough, virtually every modern country was the product of repeated invasions by non-native forces.

If you disagree, or feel I am somehow biased on this question, feel free to take it to WP:NPOVN. —ShadowRanger ^(talk|stalk) 21:06, 6 January 2010 (UTC)