User talk:DavidAppletree

Welcome

Hello, DavidAppletree! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already loving Wikipedia you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field when making edits to pages. Happy editing! Off2riorob (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2010 (UTC) Getting Started The five pillars of Wikipedia • Tutorial • Your first article How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Community Portal • Adopt-a-user program Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • Resolving disputes Build consensus • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Maintenance • Peer review • Requested articles Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Advice from Spartaz

David Any complaint about the article talk page content is going to be messy if conducted on-wiki, please contact the volunteer help team at info-en-q@wikimedia.org for help and advice. Please also read WP:BIO, WP:ORG, WP:BLP and WP:COI. There has been a persistent campaign by someone trying to use the JIDF page as propoganda and that person was recently banned from wikipedia for using numerous sockpuppets as part of that campaign. If you have any desire to reduce the temperature on that page to prevent agressive editing and issues like this arising then I strongly advise you to use whatever influence you may have, if you know the individual, to prevent this happening. Spartaz ^Humbug! 08:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I have a good idea of who might have been behind those campaigns. I didn't mind so much about what was happening as they seemed to be defending me and my organization. After seeing the problems they have had, and the problems they created for the WP project, I'm here to do that for myself now and I don't think any disruptions of that nature will be a problem in the future. --DavidAppletree (talk) 08:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I have your emails and will discuss with others the way forward. Spartaz ^Humbug! 08:41, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, I have written several times to Wikipedia about the problems I have been having here, and have not received much help or advice. I'm not sure the talk page is the place for people to launch personal attacks against me, speculate about private information about me, and for people to use it as a soapbox to express their personal opinion about my work. --DavidAppletree (talk) 10:38, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

well we can help with this but for the moment I'm waiting for a response from the arbitration committee. Spartaz ^Humbug! 10:39, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Conversation with Ironholds

• I'm not a fan of Israel, despite being Jewish (which is why I never edit anything related to it), so there's a big bone of contention there. I think anyone who sockpuppets to shove in biased information constitutes a threat; if it was someone trying to have Israel declared the world's most violent nation, for example, I'm sure you'd agree. Ironholds (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, how can you be a Jew who is not a fan of Israel (to some extent, at least?) And because I support Israel you take such issue with my politics? I think there's a lot of people out there sockpuppeteering and gaming the system in other ways, especially when it comes to Israel and the Jewish people. Many of them are clever so as to pretend that they are objective about the situation, when they are not. Others take comfort in the fact that many here (even Jews like yourself), who don't like Israel. Consensus is easily built to paint a picture that does not put Israel (and thus, the Jewish people) in a positive light. Maybe that's why you don't like Israel. Perhaps you believe too much of the negativity directed at it and you feel it makes you--as a Jew---look bad? Just speculating. Israel's done some incredible things in its infancy. There's a lot for a Jew to be proud about when it comes to Israel. --DavidAppletree (talk) 11:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Quite easily; the trick is to believe human rights take principle above 2,000 year old books, and pride at a country's achievements does not mean that I can ignore its hypocrisy. Speculation is a waste of time in that to fully set out my beliefs and opinions would take hours. I don't think that negative press pointed at Israel makes me look bad as a Jew, since I don't identify as a Jew most of the time anyway. Ironholds (talk) 14:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

But Israel's record on human rights is among the best in the Middle East. Do you focus on human rights in other countries? I hope you realize there's a lot more to being a Jew than 2,000 year old books. Not sure how/why you think Israel is a hypocritical country, but every country is going to have its share of such. That saddens me that you don't identify as a Jew most of the time. There's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of there and plenty to be proud of. Still I'm curious why you find my politics "despicable." As you say, it would take hours for us to discuss your beliefs and opinions. The same is true of mine. I'm not sure how you formed such a solid opinion of my beliefs/views and what it is that disgusts you so.--DavidAppletree (talk) 14:24, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Best in the middle east is not, particularly, an achievement. The hypocrisy stems from the current and increasing treatment of Arabs and Palestinians as second-class citizens, despite the Israeli constitution, and the prominence given to Jewish religious concerns. It's nothing to do with being ashamed or proud of as to my self-identification; I don't believe in a god, forced socialising annoys the hell out of me, and I prefer to take people as I find them rather than automatically feel some kind of unity due to the circumstances of my birth. Also, see Wikipedia:User pages; "Writings, information, discussions, and activities not closely related to Wikipedia's goals" and "Promotional and advocacy material and links". See also WP:EL#ADV; "in line with Wikipedia policies, you should avoid linking to a site that you own, maintain, or represent—even if WP guidelines seem to imply that it may otherwise be linked". Ironholds (talk) 14:40, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

It's just interesting that you take such issue with Israel on human rights when its neighbors are the one's who are full of human rights atrocities. With regard to "2nd class citizens," Arabs get to vote and they are active members of Israeli government. A lot of the "2nd class citizens" charges are bogus. If you want to see what a 2nd class citizen looks like, look at a Jew trying to live in most Arab/Islamic countries (if you can even find one, as most have been expelled) or had to leave due to constant harassment, attacks, persecution, etc. It's sad to me how many anti-Israel/anti-Jewish/atheist Jews there are our there, but since everything happens for a reason, I'm sure there is a reason for these trends. I cleaned up my user page, but wish you would have talked to me about it before just wiping it out. I suppose you are OK with RolandR's page? --DavidAppletree (talk) 14:59, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Again, comparing a country to the middle east is not a good way to set examples. "some nations treat us worse than we treat the Palestinians and Arabs" is not a decent argument. The Protection of Holy Sites Law guaranteed protection of holy sites regardless of their religious status; good. In the 43 years since, the Israeli government has used the law to protect over 130 Jewish sites - but no Christian or Muslim sites. Jews can marry each other, Muslims can marry each other, but a Jew cannot marry a Muslim, nor a Christian, nor can a Christian marry a Muslim. A Hebrew University study notes that "three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children". In 2003, the Knesset amended the law to prevent Palestinians marrying Israelis from gaining full Israeli citizenship. This isn't even looking at the occupied territories. Ironholds (talk) 16:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

What are your anti-Israel sources for this biased, inaccurate information? Israel actually protects all sites. Regarding marriage laws, that has to do with Judaism, as intermarriage is forbidden. The fact that Jews invest heavily in the education of their children is nothing new. I realize that comparing a country to the ME in general is not the best way to set examples. However, how many other countries in the ME do you hold under a microscope? Do you even consider the human rights abuses in other countries, or are you just obsessed w/ the perceived "abuses" in Israel? --DavidAppletree (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm appalled by any human rights abuses, regardless of origin; if I was talking to a Saudi Arabian or Iranian activist the subject would be the same. It's interesting to see that you assume anyone talking about the issue is anti-Israel, and not that you could possibly be wrong. It is also interesting to see you turn on me directly; rather than actually addressing the issues, you criticise the person asking the questions. The investment talked about is government investment, not private investment. Regarding the Protection of Holy Sites Law, see the US State Department's 2008 report on Israel. Ironholds (talk) 17:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

You made it clear that you are not a fan of Israel. Is it safe to assume that a person who is "not a fan of Israel" is anti-Israel? You're certainly not apathetic about Israel. I haven't "turned on you." I will review the US State Dept's report on Israel. It's important to note that the US State Dept. is notoriously anti-Israel. What are your sources for this allegation about investment in education? There are far more Jews in Israel than Arabs, so it would make sense, proportionately speaking, that more money would be invested in Jews than Arabs. I wonder if it was flip flopped and the Israeli government gave more money to Arabs than to Jews (despite the fact that there are more Jews in Israel than Arabs) that you would complain about Jews being discriminated against? --DavidAppletree (talk) 18:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Again, turning on me; as said, I abhor discrimination and human rights abuses, regardless of who the abuser is and who the abusee is. I am not anti-Jewish any more than I am anti-insert-group-here. Can you not participate in a rational discussion without questioning my motives? And again, it's done by person, not by group; basic, simple statistics every secondary school child learns. The education information came from Sorel Cahan (an academic at Hebrew University's School of Education)'s study, which was published in Megamot. Ironholds (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily questioning your motives. I'll look into your allegations and sources. Can you honestly tell me that you have the same types of information at your fingertips (reports, stats, etc) about human rights abuses in Iran and Saudi Arabis as you do for Israel? If so, I'm impressed. Most people who are keen on stating all their issues with Israel oftentimes overlook all the positive about the Jewish state, and obsessively focus on all the negative, and they generally don't bother to discuss any other country. I'm against groups, too, believe it or not. I just don't like to see anyone unfairly targeted, and I feel that has been our story, as Jews, and Israel's story for a long time now. And very few things sadden me more than fellow Jews who are involved in the targeting of Jews and Israel, but I guess that's a tribute to our strength. Good luck finding many Palestinian sympathizers who focus on human rights abuses among their leadership of Hamas/Fatah. You're a tribute to the diverse voices we have within the Jewish people, as is Israel. --DavidAppletree (talk) 18:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, actually; I'm a law student, and public law and human rights law are both areas of speciality for me. One of my best articles, in my opinion, was on a British human rights abuse I find particularly despicable. And I'm about as Jewish as a ham sandwich, thanks. Ironholds (talk) 18:39, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Cool. I will look into that report as well, and a Jew is a Jew, is a Jew, my friend. Good Shabbos ;) --DavidAppletree (talk) 18:41, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

JIDF logo

The JIDF logo is subject to copyright law, and under Wikipedia policy it may not be used on any pages except articles (see item #9). — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Even though I own the copyright and am granting myself permission to use it in this fashion? That's ironic, and doesn't seem right. That policy is to avoid a copyright violation. Since I own the copyright and am granting myself permission to use my photo for this purpose, there is no violation, so I do not think it's against WP's policy? --DavidAppletree (talk) 19:22, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is against wikipedia policy, please don't replace it. Presently we have it only as a fair use logo, if you want to release it under a commons free license then if you do own it you can do that and someone will help you if you want to do that, but presently is is a policy violation to have it on your user or talkpage. Even if you own it, here at wikipedia you can not just give yourself permission to use it, you would have to freely release it to allow anyone to use it.Off2riorob (talk) 19:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. Well, no big deal now. Maybe at some point down the line if I want to make my page look pretty (and if WP still allows me to be around), I'll look into releasing it under a commons free license. --DavidAppletree (talk) 19:43, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

However, the release under the CC is irrevocable, and allows anyone to use it for any purpose, including those which you may find inimical. Just sayin'. -- Avi (talk) 23:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

off wiki

Would you be prepared to remove the wiki editors names from that off wiki commentary, I am sure you could convey a similar message without actually putting individual wiki editors in the frame? That would be a big step towards better relations. You could keep the criticism but remove the individual references.Off2riorob (talk) 18:07, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Those posts are from about two years ago and involved detailed, time consuming, research, that I'm unprepared just to censor because some people on WP who have problems with my views wish to censor me. However, if any editors who are actually mentioned anywhere on the JIDF site have legitimate concerns about anything posted on my site, they are always free to contact me about their direct concerns, and I'm willing to make changes, if necessary, and within reason, but I cannot just wipe out our hard work at the request of random WP editors, the majority of whom aren't even mentioned on the site, and have never bothered to write to me about it directly. --DavidAppletree (talk) 18:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I appreciate your position and your offer to look at any issues users may have with anything there. I was looking at one of them and the individual names that could attract unwarranted attention from readers of your site could easily be removed and nothing of the original message would be lost, but that is in your hands. Off2riorob (talk) 18:42, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I'm not going to remove anything w/out specific people contacting me to discuss specific and reasonable problems they have with something on my site. There's a lot on various websites about me, and my organization that I'd like to be removed, too, but they have no obligation to remove it, necessarily, either. I'm not sure about WP's policy about editors discussing issues they have w/ the site, off site. If there are rules pertaining to that, please let me know. Either way, I don't think my presence as an editor here should impede my ability to discuss my observations, elsewhere, especially considering the "no soapboxing" rules here. --DavidAppletree (talk) 18:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

BLOCKED

Nice, real nice. Thanks, Scott! What did I do, exactly to deserve this? --DavidAppletree (talk) 21:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)