Talk:White Russian (cocktail)

In popular culture

Please consider adding the trivia tag to it, since it just encourages people to create a bulleted list of random tangents. Second put the preparation notes above the pop culture list. Since that's probably more important then the trivia section. --71.116.98.105 (talk) 02:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The popular culture section of this article totally reads like a random trivia section. The facts it has are interesting, sure, but I don't know, maybe some decently written prose would improve the quality here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.153.95 (talk) 08:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Caucasian is not a "joke"

I don't like the citation of Jeffrey Lebowski calling a White Russian a "Caucasian" as a joke. A Caucasian is actually a White Russian, minus the Vodka (Kahlua and Milk/Cream only.) In the movie, Jeff Lebowski always asks for or makes a White Russian when he's at somebody else's house, but orders Caucasians when he's at the bowling alley. As a bowler and White Russian drinker myself, I know the primary reason for ordering a Caucasian is the lower price. This would fit in well with Jeff Lebowski's financial status.Robertsegletes 16:34, 20 October 2007 (UTC) comment added by Robertsegletes (talk • contribs) 00:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC) I watched "The Big Lebowski" again yesterday, and after specifically asking Jackie Treehorn for a White Russian, he is later heard saying, "You mix one hell of a Caucasian, Jackie." At that point in the film, he was hepped up on goofballs, and perhaps his lax language caused the Dude to interchange White Russian and Caucasian freely. That being said, it is possible that the Dude interchanged terms, as do others, but Caucasian is still, as far as I know, a different drink.65.121.84.70 17:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense to call a Black Russian a Caucasian... because of the Caucasus? Har har har D Boland (talk) 13:51, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The picture...

...of the White Russian is not actually a White Russian. It actually looks like a glass of milk with ice in it, possibly a tall Brown Cow. I will take a better picture, I don't have my S7000 on me at the moment but will see what other camera I can use. JayKeaton 03:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Done, not my best camera but it is better than the old picure. Feel free to replace it if you can make and take a better one JayKeaton 14:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A White Lebowski

Sorry, but how was this variation made famous by the Dude? The Dude is never seen to actually drink a "White Lebowski", and is seen in the film buying a carton of real milk.

It's not real milk, it's half and half. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.145 (talk) 18:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

I do not know, I have never heard of that drink and have never heard of the movie. If it isn't real, feel free to delete it ^_^ JayKeaton 21:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

have you even seen the film?

There is a scene in which The Dude visits Maude Lebowski, played by Julianne Moore. She has no cream so the Dude is forced to add non-dairy creamer. Muaddib 02:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but that's silly. He's simply making a White Russian with the ingredients he has to hand, in this case using powdered milk as a direct substitute for normal milk. This mixture does not merit its own name, and you will never see a "White Lebowski" on sale in a bar. Rufous 17:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have! But I've seen it listed as "The Lebowski", I'll post a photo when possible. ([[User:Giani g|Giani g]] 19:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC))

That's interesting... Did you try one? How did it compare to a normal bar-style White Russian? Elustran 01:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

O sorry I misread, because someone wrote about how they've never heard of the film, what I meant to say is that the drink is commonly refered to as a Lebowski in bars, I can't imagine how going half and half would make much difference anyway. I think the name Lebowski should be added to the article if not already done so.([[User:Giani g|Giani g]] 13:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

The recipe

Why isn't there a recipe for a typical white russian coctail mix? That's what I wanted when I visited this page ;).

Looks like there's one there now; I'll reformat it to stand out better if I have time. Ironphoenix 15:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Cultural References, what Alex in "A Clockwork Orange" refers to as "Milk Plus" is not a white russian. It is milk laced with a hallucionogen, mainly LSD or PCP.

Reference corrected; bitching deleted. Ironphoenix 15:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, the liquid cream must be shaken with ice in a mixer without the Vodka and Kahlua, till the cistency starts to thicken, than you pour the cream carefully over the stirred mixure from Vodka and Kahlua and you have the traditional method of preparing a white russian...

That is the correct way, yes. Although I couldn't think how to word it. It can be done with just milk and often is as a lot of common establishments just can't be arsed working with cream. But it should be done with cream, and that is how the cream should served. Also shaking it with ice makes it float a little better over the Kahlua and vodka JayKeaton 07:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

White Russian or Milk-Plus

Here is the actual text from Burgess's Book: "There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, Dim being really Dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar making up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening, a flip dark chill winter bastard though dry. The Korova Milkbar was a milk-plus mesto, and you may, O my brothers, have forgotten what these mestos were like, things changing so skorry these days and everybody very quick to forget, newspapers not being read much neither. Well, what they sold there was milk plus something else. They had no license for selling liquor, but there was no law yet against prodding some of the new veshches which they used to put into the old moloko, so you could peet it with vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom or one or two other veshches which would give you a nice quick horrorshow fifteen minutes admiring Bog And All His Holy Angels And Saints in your left shoe with lights bursting all over your mozg. Or you could peet milk with knives in it, as we used to say, and this would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of dirty twenty-to-one, and that was what we were peeting this evening I'm starting off the story with."

Alex mentions explicitly that there was no liquor in the "milk-plus", and that it contained various new sythetic drugs. I have now removed the portion of the article regarding "A Clockwork Orange" --J12601 21:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Creme de Cacao?

I thought the liqueur in this drink was creme de cacao, and many online cocktail databases (e.g. epicurious.com) do list this as the ingredient (though others do in fact list Kahlua).

It would seem this belongs in the article somewhere, whether this belongs in the 1st paragraph or as some minor note elsewhere in the article, I defer to the expertise of others.

I've never seen a White Russian Recipe with creme de cacao - it must be some variant of the basic recipe. Elustran 02:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

When I learned how to make this drink we use Vodka 11/4 ounce, Creme de Cacao 3/4 ounce poured over ice in an old fashion glass.

When you use milk or cream it becomes a brown cow with vodka.

Creme de cacao and vodka makes a good drink, but I haven't heard it referred to as a Black Russian (or, with the milk/cream, a White Russian). Kahlua, Tia Maria, and Bolivar liqueurs are the ones I've generally used for the Russians. Creme de cacao (especially white) and vodka could be called a chocolate martini (stir or shake with ice, garnish with a cherry or chocolate curl shaved from a block). Ironphoenix 15:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

White Russians (and black) are properly made with Kahlua. However, in Europe, Kahlua is less commonly stocked in bars. I always ask if they have Kahlua, and I am frequently offered dark Creme de Cacao when they do not. The taste is reasonably similar. However, this alternative is NOT a proper white russian. It is an invalid substitute just as much as soya milk or Everclear would be. OneVeryBadMan 13:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of freezer storage for vodka

The freezing point of alcohol is really not an issue even on the page for vodka itself, let alone a specific cocktail containing vodka. Is it really necessary? --NEMT 06:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess I just worry that someone might not know that vodka doesn't freeze under regular freezer temperature. I don't want someone to think I'm advocating freezing their alcohol. I know pretty much everybody who is going to be reading this page will know that you can put alcohol in a freezer, but I just want to be comprehensive. If you still want to kill it, then kill it - I'm not too attached to leaving the comment in, but if you can think of a better way of putting it that doesn't interfere with the readability, please do. Hopefully the notion of being able to keep alcohol in the freezer is explained somewhere in Wikipedia, though. Elustran 12:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

contradictory

this article claims that "A Dirty Russian is similar to the Russian Yoo-Hoo, but instead of Yoo-Hoo you use milk with chocolate syrup." and "A Dirty Russian is a common college prank, in which human semen is used in place of creme." unless someone is cumming chocolate syrup, this article is contradictory. 67.161.186.130 03:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Weird - I have no clue. All I can really say is that I'm glad I usually mix my own drinks or get them in bars. Variant drinks are often the product of subculture, unique inspiration, and regional differences, so you COULD potentially have different drinks that happen to have the same name because they have different origins. If nobody presents a solid case for one being more accepted than the other, should we just list them as being variants with the same name? Elustran 21:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the second "Dirty Russian." It's uncited, and has the ring of a gruesome proposition rather than a genuine drink (not least due to the implausible volume of, uh, adulterant needed to preserve the proper ratio of ingredients). It's certainly not a proper cocktail and I feel that it doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps it could find a home on a gruesome fraternity joke page. OneVeryBadMan 14:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

IBA and WikiProject Standardized

Hello. I have noticed for a while that there is disagreement as to the "proper" way to make a White Russian. Slow motion edit wars take place between people changing the ratio of vodka to other ingredients, etc.

Throughout all of the cocktail articles, whenever the International Bartender Association has published a standard recipe and preparation instructions, the Mixed Drinks WikiProject has decided to use the international standard as the only recipe that will appear in the article.

There are many reasons for this decision. (1) Remember that Wikipedia a recipe book, and more than one drink recipe tends to result in article deletion for violating Wikipedia policy. (2) Mixed drinks are made in nearly as many different manners and proportions as there are people making them. Everyone has a particular way they like their drinks made. (3) The only way to avoid ongoing editing and reediting is to settle on a standard. The international standard is the one set in the IBA Official Cocktail standards.

Speaking specifically of the White Russian, the parts (5:2:3) is considerably different from the two most commonly edited versions I have seen here (2:1:1 and 1:2:1). I did not make up the standard, but it is the one that should remain in place. If you see someone change it, please revert it back to the standard.

Likewise, cream, not milk, is the official ingredient to be used when making this drink. I did add a note at the top of the article that states that milk is a very common replacement for cream. This should be adequate for people interested in the drink to be able to figure out the substitution without mentioning it in multiple sections.

The preparation method is also specified by the IBA. I flagged the preparation notes section for cleanup. The main reason I did that is because it is written in a very casual way, not like you would find in a paper encyclopedia. Also, given the IBA standard preparation method, the notes section should probably discuss things as variations from the standard. The IBA does not mention placing the vodka in a freezer. Furthermore, many bars will have refrigeration, but not necessarily freezers nearby. Ice, yes. Freezers, not always. The little I know of the World Cocktail Competition (WCC), where the standards are put to good use, would lead me to believe that the vodka used is likewise not kept cold. It would seem that variation is one used mostly (or only) in home preparations, and should be noted as such if true.

I have also restructured the article a bit (see Bloody Mary for a similar example). Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia first and foremost, the most encyclopedic information should come first (history, origin of the name, etc.), then items relating to popular culture and current trends, and then, details about the preparation of the drink (the part of the article that is viewed by some as being in violation of policy). Variations are listed last , as they are very similar to see also and other linking sections; that is, they branch away from the main topic of the article.

Hopefully everyone will find these changes acceptable. Judging by the comments above, it appears that people have strong opinions about this drink, and have invested a lot of thought into how things were. Please accept my apology if I have upset anyone, because that is not the intention. We are just working to improve and standardize all the mixed drink articles at Wikipedia. If you would like to help, please visit the Mixed Drinks WikiProject and become an Active Participant. --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 11:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The IBA is a very good bench mark to have and wikipedia should use that bench mark for all the cocktails. However, the pages also need to state that the IBA is used when official measurements are given and it also needs to explain that other ways of making it are acceptable and are often the standard way of making drinks in bars and pubs, because we don't need to tell people "This is the official way", only for them to order the drink and find out it is different to how a country/business "officially" does it. So yes, IBA is a good thing to add, but we also need to give attention to the other methods, because well it wouldn't be complete if the page only used one source. If it was only going to have one source, then users may as well use the official IBA page, rather than coming here for e compendium of all information JayKeaton 19:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

WAIT A MINUTE! The IBA actually says that you should float the dairy on top of the alcohol, and then you should stir it in !?! WTF! Ok, now I'm not so sure the IBA is the best benchmark JayKeaton 19:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Gay Russian

Before adding "Gay Russian" back, please cite a reliable source. The ingredients are contested, and I could not locate any references to it except copies of this article. The original addition substituted brandy for vodka, which was later changed to substituting brandy for the Kahlua. Since I can't verify either variation as existing, it seems this variation is entirely non-notable and shouldn't even be listed. Of course, I think that some of the other variations probably also fall into that category, too, and they should likewise be removed from the article. --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 00:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"Variations"

Please add sources for "variants" which demonstrate they are widely known,are actually variants rather than similar cocktails, and are not WP:NOT something you came up with one day. Removed section below. Deiz talk 03:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Drink variants are a bit of a cultural phenomenon... I'm sure we could find places where these drinks are named, but what counts as 'authoritative' when something is a recent invention or not well known enough to have garnered wide attention? Personally, I've heard of some of the listed variants outside of this article, such as the Colorado Bulldog, the Cocaine Lady, the White Cuban, and the Gay Russian. Are the other ones 'notable'? I don't know... I'd rather not kill accurate information just because some of the information it's standing next to looks suspicious, e.g. 'don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.' I added a cleanup tag to the section in general so those reading will know that it isn't fully confirmed, authoritative information. The pop-culture section isn't bogged down, so the listed references should probably remain - I don't feel that there's so much there it required paring down. Elustran 23:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is routine per Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. WP is not a repository of trivia, a place to list variations of cocktails you or your favourite bartender came up with or every reference to something in popular culture. If unverified, speculative info and trivia is readded without citiation, I'll have no choice but to protect the page. If something is encyclopedic, please source it appropriately - that's how WP works, not the other way round. Deiz talk 05:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I do understand your position, and that Wikipedia should not merely be a repository of trivia or a series of lists, however, Wikipedia is a digital encyclopedia, so it can err on the side of containing more information. I do think it's appropriate to show some information within an entry that may be incomplete or partially unverified, so long as it's tagged as being such, and with the understanding that it will later be edited. Elustran 03:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. However, the policies and guidelines (and Jimbo Wales) are crystal clear on this point: Encyclopedic content must be verifiable, and unverified material can be removed by any editor. Deiz talk 12:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added a note under preparation about there being variants and gave two examples with an inline citation. After going through quite literately dozens of "cocktail websites" it seems that the VAST majority of them are sub-par by almost any metric.I went with a site which I believe meets wikipedia's standards.Darqcyde (talk) 04:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Variations

See also: Black Russian

Variations in alcohol

• Colorado Bulldog — use vanilla vodka and add cola to taste.
• Creamy Albino — substitute Puerto Rican Rum for vodka.
• White Cuban — substitute rum for vodka.
• White Trash — substitute whiskey for vodka.
• Gay Russian — substitute cherry brandy for Kahlúa.
• Dublin Bulldog — use vanilla vodka and add cola, substitute creme de menthe for Kahlúa.
• Russian Mafia — use Espresso Vodka

Fresh cream substitutions

• Anna Kournikova — substitute skim milk.
• Bolshevik or Blind or Blonde Russian — substitute Irish Cream (e.g., Baileys) liqueur for fresh cream.
• Brown Russian — substitute milk with powdered chocolate (e.g., O'boy).
• Frozen Black Irish — substitute Baileys and vanilla ice cream.
• Cocaine Lady — substitute peppermint liqueur and milk.
• Colin Powell — substitute preprepared chocolate milk.
• Dirty Russian — substitute milk with chocolate syrup.
• Jason Gordon — substitute crushed papaya.
• Russian Yoo-Hoo — substitute Yoo-hoo chocolate beverage.
• Twiz Twist — substitute licorice extract.
• White Almond — substitute Almond milk.
• White Canadian — substitute whole goat's milk.
• White Mexican - substitute Horchata.
• White Vegan — substitute soy milk.
• Yellow Russian or Ho-Ho Express — substitute eggnog.
• Siberian — substitute eggnog and peppermint liquer.
• Stacey-Lee — substitute tequila.

Additions

• Larry's White Russian — add coconut flavored white rum (e.g. Malibu).
• Mikhail Gorbachev — top with dash of chocolate syrup.
• Russian Bulldog — add cola to taste.
• White Meseta — top off with a shot of bourbon (e.g., Maker's Mark).
• Van Halen Special — Add Amaretto & Rum (Served in Voodoo Lounge, French Quarter, New Orleans, LA)
• Polish Winter — add Vanilla ice cream to the mix and blend in a blender
• Russian Bride — add Creme de Cacao
• Litvinenko — add a shot of Absinthe (so named because it's a White Russian which has been poisoned)
• White Bolshevik - top with a half a shot of Irish Cream (e.g., Baileys) liqueur.
• Caucasian (The Big Lebowski) - add a tad of salt while adding the cream (or milk) this brings out the creamy side of it without thickening it. when doing so you might want to add a little extra sugar (to counter the salty taste)
• White Johnson - add as much Amaretto as Kahlua before adding the milk or cream
• Ivan Drago (Rocky IV) - Combine ingredients in large quantities (a quart or more) to make a giant White Russian
• Slippery Frog - drizzle with green creme de menthe, stir and the resulting flavor tastes like a mint cookie.

-Concerning removing variations from the article and putting them here, I'm not saying that you need to put this part back into the main article, but Black Irish links to the White Russian main article with #Fresh_Cream_Substitutions, so either it needs to link elsewhere or be removed. Giovnni (talk) 10:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

The IT Crowd

To say that I am weary of removing this irrelevant, unsourced, insifgnificant factoid from the article would be an understatement of monumental proportions. Surely - surely - this will not necessitate full protection of the article. Deiz talk 14:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't realize that this had already been posted in the past. Certainly, if enough people have taken the time to mention it to merit your frustrations, it cannot be viewed as irrelevant or insignificant. Unsourced, yes, but I don't see any sourcing on the other pop culture references, either. Vorpal22 (talk) 20:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree with Vorpal22 on this one. This drink is indeed prominent in an episode of the IT Crowd... and I fail to see how one could find a reference to that fact better than the episode itself. Or is it expected to have some sort of print reference to validate pop culture references... in which case all the other pop-culture references in this article should also be removed as they all fail to cite any references as well. However as your are an administrator Deiz I would welcome some discussion as to why you think the IT Crowd pop culture reference stands out from the others for exclusion. Condolini (talk) 13:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, the IT Crowd is a 2006-07 Channel 4 sitcom? We have 3 references, 2 from major movies and one from a global brand, which are far easier for Joe Anywhere to verify. The predilections of one character in a local TV show are insignificant as far as establishing the notability of something - put simply, white russians don't need the endorsement of the IT crowd, rather the other way round. Note that various other minor refs were removed, hence nothing has been singled out, and there are long established guidelines on not letting articles fill up with useless trivia. Deiz talk 23:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the reference to Catwoman is necessary either - the movie was a flop with little to no pop-culture significance. For that matter, I never saw the Ben and Jerry's ice cream flavor either, and other pages that reference names like those in B&J's ice cream don't all reference back to B&J's flavors - the ice cream flavor is not noted on the Banana split page, for instance. The Big Lebowski is a critically acclaimed decade old movie and a staple of midnight matinées, so its presence is more justifiable. Unfortunately, that leaves us with only one pop-culture reference. Pop culture is an inexact science. Maybe Catwoman was a bad movie that nobody watches much anymore, but it did make more money in the box office than The Big Lebowski. Maybe I never saw the Ben and Jerry's flavor, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an underground sensation. I understand that if we included every single reference, the pop culture reference page would get cluttered, but we might have to be a bit more inclusionist with the reference to Maurice, if only because it keeps on cropping up. Nobody has thought to re-post the Sandman's signature move, or songs by a few bands, but different users from different IPs have continually mentioned The IT Crowd. Maybe that little show on Channel 4 has had more impact than you realize. It would only be honest to include such a highly demanded factoid in the pop-culture section.(Elustran (talk) 13:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC))

Sorry if you didn't enjoy Catwoman, or don't buy a lot of ice cream, but you have heard of Catwoman (it appears you're suggesting Halle Berry in the Catwoman outfit was not a significant moment in popular culture? Bizarre.) and Ben and Jerry. The IT Crowd connection is pure fancruft, and would leave the vast, vast majority of Wikipedia's global readership thinking "who? what?" And, if they were to discover more about the show, the character, and the importance (or lack thereof) that the reference holds on the show, the response would change to "so what?". Also, "highly demanded"? That several fans of a niche show, band, blog or other media entity - especially one that appeals to white, tech-savvy men aged between 18-35, you're aware of systemic bias? - are adding trivia references on Wikipedia does not even begin to suggest, let alone prove, that the reference is notable or encyclopedic. Deiz talk 14:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

You make a strong point for the case of systemic bias being one of the reasons the quote keeps on getting inserted. However, another interpretation of that systemic bias is that there may be some fact we're missing that we should be putting in because the people to whom that fact has relevance do not edit the English language Wikipedia. The fact is that not every editor or reader will understand or recognize every significant pop-culture reference. It seems like I have a bit more of an 'inclusionist' perspective than you, but I'd like you to hear me out. You seem to be making your judgment based on the theory that more people recognize the character of Catwoman and the actress Haley Barry than the show The IT Crowd or the character of Maurice Moss. I can't dispute that. More people have also probably heard of Ben and Jerry's. The real question is how important are the scene with Catwoman ordering a White Russian and the fact that Ben&Jerry's once fleetingly had a White Russian ice cream flavor compared to Maurice Moss' favored drink being a White Russian. While the show is known to a smaller segment of the population, it seems that people think Maurice's drinking of White Russians is important to his development as a character. I would also argue that, to the best of my knowledge, White Russians are not important to Catwoman, and a brief production of White Russian ice cream is not important to Ben&Jerry's. It seems strange to me that we're including two things of little pop culture relevance in the pop culture section but ignoring something with pop culture relevance, albeit to a somewhat smaller, but still substantive, segment of the population. Not everything that is wikipedically notable will be notable to everybody. Not everybody will recognize everything listed or referenced in Wikipedia. If they did, this encyclopedia wouldn't have much use as an educational tool.(Elustran (talk) 02:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC))

I appreciate your making the argument, but you have to admit it is very weak. Yes, it may be in some way important to the character development because he doesn't know the ingredients of his favourite drink and he is therefore a bit of an idiot, but this does nothing to combat the basic problem - Maurice Who? Until there is a reliable source which gives this some kind of weight, it's still just throwaway fluff-trivia about a character in a little-known local TV show, and does far less to exemplify the appearance of White Russians in popular culture than Catwoman, The Big Lebowski and Ben & Jerrys. Bear in mind it is also the same style of reference as the Big Lebowski - a fictional character's favourite drink. We've got that one covered. Deiz talk 15:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I recognize the desire to limit 'trivia' sections to well-known content, and I recognize that the IT Crowd, as a cultural entity, has less recognition than B&Js, Catwoman, or The Big Lebowski. I did a quick search on Google trends and checked out the IMDB pages. On IMBD, The IT Crowd has 3600 votes and an 8.9 rating, Catwoman has 24000 votes and a 3.2 rating, TBL has 118000 votes and an 8.2 rating. For a comparison of the IT crowd with other British comedy shows, Monty Python's Flying Circus has 3800 votes and a 9.5 rating, and Black adder has 2800 votes and an 8.5 rating. Both of those shows are well known, so we have to approach those figures with the knowledge that TV shows tend to get voted on less in IMDB. The popularity of the IT crowd would seem to compare favorably with two well-known shows, Flying Circus, and Black Adder. Catwoman made a big spike in Google searches when it came out, but the IT crowd never did. In the UK, however, the IT Crowd gets more searches than the other three items. In the US, a remake of the IT crowd was apparently dropped. I'm not sure Google trends is a good indicator of B&Js penetration - we know that it is a global entity and present in many grocery stores. So, basic research confirms that the IT Crowd is important in the UK, and important to its viewers. In some ways, the IT crowd is as important as Catwoman, but I have to admit the issue is borderline; the character Catwoman has been around for a lot longer even though the movie was a flop, and the IT crowd is recognized as good, but is recent and seems to have peaked. Comparing the IT crowd with other British sitcoms, it has more recognition than Black Adder, but less recognition than Monty Python. Even though the best I can say is that the issue is borderline, I can't help but wonder where the border is. We lack a good heuristic for determining what goes into the pop-culture sections, so we have to rely on personal judgment, which is an ill thing to rely upon for encyclopedic content. In my own opinion, I believe that the pop-culture sections are important and help to round out a page's content, so I would prefer to be more inclusive. I see no reason not to have a handful of entries. (On a final note, sorry if I'm starting to argue a little ad-nauseum here, but I wanted to restate my basic points alongside the evidence I could find)(Elustran (talk) 06:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC))

I don't doubt the show is well-liked, especially among active net users. As you will agree, the systemic bias argument would very squarely apply to any ad-hoc interpretation of raw IMDb voting data. I find your posts interesting and well thought-out, but I still don't think it's really an "argument" that you can "win" by proposing original reasons as to why the IT Crowd is especially notable. If there were an article in a major media source that underlined the significance of the reference, that would be great. However, absent of such external verification of significance, even if the IT Crowd were picked up and broadcast on a US cable network, it would still have a long way to go to be more recognized than the subjects of the trivia items already mentioned. Arguing for greater inclusion of trvia and "I saw this here" pop culture cross references is an argument that has been made many times on WP, and the resounding consensus has always been for such sections - if they exist at all - to be concise and contain references that the greatest number of global readers would recognize. Deiz talk 15:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I know a little ad-hoc interpretation of imdb data isn't exactly like conducting a nice, statistically significant survey, but I do think that it can help point in the right direction. Out of curiosity, have you made attempts to verify the significance of some of the items deleted from the pop culture reference section? I know I've been trying to make a point with the IT crowd, and at this point I have to agree that it's not a terribly strong point for inclusion, but what about The Sandman's White Russian Legsweep? He's a pro wrestler of long standing who currently wrestles in the internationally broadcast WWE Raw series. Due to the longstanding nature of The Sandman character and the international nature of the television show he acts/wrestles in, the 'White Russian Legsweep' is at least as notable as an abortive Ben and Jerry's ice cream flavor or a little-known line from the little-watched Catwoman movie. Really, I understand the desire to be concise, but I don't see why upwards of 6 references isn't 'concise' for this article. The White Russian cocktail has a distinctly cultural element and could benefit from a 'pop culture' section that helps to illustrate how widespread its influence is. Including a few more pop culture references isn't going to damage the article in any way. We risk losing information when we redact; there's such a thing as being too concise. (Elustran (talk) 22:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC))

Wow man, you have a serious case of WP:OWN Andy Dingley (talk) 18:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

No, WP has a serious case of not being a repository of trivia, and not dwarfing articles with useless unsourced pop-culture items that do nothing to explain what something is, or why it is significant. In the recent example you added, there is no reason why the plot device is a White Russian - it could just as easily be a Cosmopolitan, or Guinness, or any other drink. That a White Russian appears in a movie does not automatically make it encyclopedic content. You can see the reasoning why the three examples currently used in the article are actually useful above. Deiz talk 01:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Amazing this still seems to be going on. Y'know, we can either make the pop culture section concise or we can add a few items to it; we should either have a complete pop-culture section or none at all. Frankly, I'm tired of having a B&J's ice cream flavor I previously characterized as 'abortive' and a movie I previously called a 'flop' listed while everything else has been censored. The Big Lebowski has some cultural currency, so it should stay. Really, I'd prefer this section to be larger, but since you seem to be sitting on the article and killing additions to the Pop Culture section, I don't think we can arrive at a consensus. I'm going do delete the pop culture section, including ice cream and Catwoman references, and move the Lebowski reference to the main section. I think that will help keep people from adding pop culture references and I think it will make the article more internally consistent. I'm going to do this without discussion for now because I see no valid reason to wait. (Elustran (talk) 11:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC))

Seriously, that's a disruptive edit, especially as it is entirely undiscussed, and you well know it. "Pop culture" sections are acceptable on Wikipedia, but should be short and contain a selection of globally recognized topics that illustrate the significance of the drink. Repeating your colourful adjectives from previous opinions to back up your own edit is, as you also know, not constructive. Deiz talk 12:45, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Really, I'm just looking for some internal consistency, one way or the other. I see how you feel that edit may have been distruptive - that was not my intent. I was simply trying to 'be bold.' Still, I feel one of two things has to happen: either we have to condense that pop culture section into the main article, or we have to allow it to expand. Right now, it's at a point of unstable equilibrium, and we've wasted FAR too much time bickering about it. Since I don't think you agree with my view that Wikipedia should veer towards inclusiveness, I feel that the only place we can establish a consensus is to merge the most notable elements of the pop culture section into the main article, as per:these trivia guidelines. We seem to be stuck in the old pop culture section debate, and I'd prefer to simply be done with it. (Elustran (talk) 03:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC))

Into the Wild

Not the movie, but the book Into the Wild states that Christopher McCandless favorite drink was a White Russian. I feel this should be a part of the popular culture section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hibbetrm (talk • contribs) 21:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Splicing Popular Culture Section into Main Article

As per my Nov. 4 commentary in the IT Crowd section, I'd like to splice the pop culture section into the main article, probably leaving only The Big Lebowski. However, no one has made any further remarks on my idea in over 2 weeks, so if there are any comments or concerns, please register them here, and if I see nothing in a day or so, I'll make the edits. Thanks. (Elustran (talk) 14:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC))

No comment because I just don't see the point. The current examples, as pointed out ad nauseam, at least provide a global view of the drink's significance. The list is short and very well policed. Under a very strict reading of certain guidelines, this may be an acceptable course of action, but in common practice and common sense I think it is a pretty weak edit, especially if - as you seem to hint above - it is a way to "solve" a problem that, imho, doesn't really exist. Deiz talk 10:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Elustran, I agree and have removed the section. Wikipedia doesn't exist to list every time a fictional character drinks or otherwise references a cocktail. PuerExMachina (talk) 04:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

White Russia or the civil war?

"The drink is not traditionally Russian, but is so named due to vodka being the primary ingredient. The "White Russians" were an anti-Bolshevik group from the Russian Civil War." Is it really named for Kolchak and Denikin and so on? I thought it was after the actual White Russians it was named. Urpunkt (talk) 21:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

You are most likely correct. In the 1950's when this drink seemed to emerge, or at least become popular, the term "White Russian" was still in common use and not considered outdated and ethnically incorrect as it is in 2010. White Russia would almost certainly have been the more associated referent compared to any association with the White group in the Russian Revolution, which is a much more obscure reference to the average bartender or drinker. I've removed it, as it was unsourced and almost certainly incorrect. It should only be reinserted with a source.--AE Logan (talk) 18:44, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Caucasian

Caucasian is mentioned in the first sentence as an alternative name. The reference given is about the Caucasus, but doesn't mention the drink at all. The word is used on this talk page for two different variations, but not for the original (and all unsourced, except for a reference in a movie, which is presumably why they never got into the article). On that basis I'm removing the use in the lead. Rojomoke (talk) 06:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Name origin

Just because a fact is unsourced is not reason enough to delete it and lock the page. The origin of the name can be found here http://www.bootsnall.com/articles/08-10/10-famous-cocktails-and-where-they-were-born.html Please either unlock this page so I can add the full derivation of the name including where white comes from or do it for me. 208.54.45.69 (talk) 16:28, 22 September 2010 (UTC)