Talk:Ulm Minster

Term

It is not a cathedral because it has never been the seat of a bishop. Münster shouldn't be translated as cathedral thus. Nobody would use the German word "Kathedrale" for this church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.187.140.131 (talk) 01:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely it should be Ulm Minster in English, not Ulm Münster? As terms of art, they are a close match. Tacitus 22:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It should actually translate as "Ulm Cathedral". Musicandnintendo 07:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Google translates the article "Ulmer Münster" as "Ulm Cathedral". However de:Münster (Kirche) is Minster (church). The correct title of this article should be the German name "Ulmer Münster", with redirects from Ulm Cathedral and Ulm Münster. The church is a a very rich parish church, begun as a Roman Catholic and converted to Lutheran when Ulm voted for Reformation. It never was the seat of a bishop as pointed out above; This it is not a de:Kathedrale in the ecclesiastical sense. Although it is larger than many Cathedral churches and in a secular architectural view can be lumped in as a "Gothic Cathedral". Group29 (talk) 20:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, the article should be moved. Somebody be bold. -- Secisek (talk) 07:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it should be "Ulmer Münster" because that appears to be the most commonly used name, even outside Germany. The wikitravel.org page uses that term. Google searches on English pages yield only 1,780 hits for "Ulm Minster" but 11,200 for "Ulmer Munster". I suspect the word "minster" is unknown by many American English speakers, so there is limited value in using the English translation/cognate. That might explain why Google translates "Münster" as "Cathedral". David@sickmiller.com (talk) 06:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

In the German Kathedral article, it points out that sometimes in the Swabian-speaking/Alemannic areas, a cathedral is titled Münster. Adding more difficulty, in current related articles the former Catholic, but now Protestant de:Basel Münster is Basel Münster in the English Wikipedia article. The de:Strasbourg Münster is Strasbourg Cathedral in the English Wikipedia article. The word Münster derives from the Latin monasterium, English monastery. One could generate a similar confusion about Westminster, or as now known Westminster Abbey, which is different from Westminster Cathedral. The google test is not a good indicator of the proper name. The building "looks like" a Cathedral, but it is not. See also Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions Group29 (talk) 16:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Is your criticism that popular usage is a poor basis of the proper name or that the google test is a poor method to ascertain popular usage? Wikipedia:Search_engine_test explains that the google test can "confirm roughly how popularly referenced an expression is," and my above test showed a significant 6-to-1 disparity. If popular usage is a good criterion, we could proceed to validate this rough measure. Perhaps we could check English-language travel literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by David@sickmiller.com (talk • contribs) 15:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The correct English term for "Münster" is "minster", NOT "cathedral"! Judith M-S (talk) 05:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Conflict

These two statements can't both be true:

• "It has dominated Ulm and the surrounding region for hundreds of years with its 161-metre-tall spire."
• "The building was finally completed in 1890 with the addition of the spire."

One of them needs to be edited --87.82.23.233 22:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Link Error

The cathedral was surpassed by the Singer Building, but from there the previous tallest is the Park Row Building. The Cathedral never was the tallest building of the world (Eiffel Tower built in 1889 has 300m), and never was the tallest fully inhabitable building since it isn't inhabitable from bottom to top. It probably was the highest church in the world, needs verification.

Confusing Sentence

"Ulm was destroyed in an area bombing raid by the British RAF on December 17, 1944."

This sentence is kind of ambiguous and should be edited. Does this refer to the city of Ulm or the cathedral itself? I assume it means the city of Ulm, so this should be amended. Either make the sentence clearer or completely remove it for being irrelevant.99.249.189.179

The Monster (Shreeeeeek) of Ulm

I have added most of the original content of the German version, ignoring some of the "less interesting" details, which only create a stack of red links. As far as I am concerned, this article is almost finished. I checked the relevant homepage, http://www.muenster-ulm.de/, for any additional wisdom. This is quite rich stuff with many pictures... Greetings from Vienna...
--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM 00:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

I'm not sure this article should be moved to Ulm Münster; I agree that "Minster" is a fairly obscure term...what is more important is that it is not backed by English usage. Frankly, "Münster" is likely even more obscure to an English reader. What is English usage is Ulm Cathedral:

• Cathedral = 21,300 (Exact search "Ulm Cathedral" -"Ulm Münster" -wikipedia)
• Münster = 11,000 (Exact search -"Ulm Cathedral" "Ulm Münster" -wikipedia) Scrolling through these hits reveals that many are actually German language
• Britannica
• Encarta
• Guardian
• National Geographic
• This record of the organ at the church, which has title in German ("Ulmer Münster"), French ("Cathedrale D'Ulm"), and English ("Ulm Cathedral")

etc.

The chief problem with "cathedral", as has been noted, is that it is not technically correct in an ecclesiastical sense (although probably in a secular architectual sense). What I propose is that we title the article Ulm Cathedral and then immediately lay out the situation in the opening paragraphs. For instance:

Ulm Cathedral (German Ulmer Münster) is a prominent church, located in the German city of Ulm, which was the tallest building in the world from 1890-1903. Although it is generally called a cathedral, this is not technically correct in an ecclesiastical sense, because no bishop sits there.

For those who might find it comforting to have some company, it may be noted that most other language wiki's seem to go the "Cathedral" route in the title.

Erudy (talk) 16:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Interesting case. Ulm Cathedral is common but not technically correct. Ulm Minster is technically correct but not common. According to Google, Ulm Münster is a bit less common than Ulm Cathedral but the results include alternate spellings such as "Muenster" and "Munster." In addition, Münster is simply the German word for minster and doesn't have a meaning in English or an article at Wikipedia. If the decision is for Ulm Cathedral, a disclaimer should be featured prominently in the intro para. Good luck. — AjaxSmack 14:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that "Ulm Cathedral" is the most common name for this building in English. GB comparison: Ulm Minster, Ulm Münster (mostly German), Ulm Cathedral. Erudy's disclaimer makes sense to me. Olessi (talk) 17:36, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I would say that that the usage of Cathedral is not so overwhelming that we should not at least consider the clause in WP:NAME and WP:PRECISION that we should name our articles precisely and with the least amount of ambiguity. The slightly less common names suffer less from this - it's a trade-off between the two factors. Knepflerle (talk) 23:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Can a native German speaker comment on whether 'Münster'/'Dom' designations take on the feel as if it is part of the proper name of the building? I get the impression that it does, and it would seem kind of strange to me if, for comparison in de.wikipedia, we localized e.g. Madison Square Garden to 'Madison Square Sporthalle'. Or 'Garten' w/ "Although it is generally called a garden, this is not technically correct in an botanical sense..." Ripe (talk) 15:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

In German it's always "Ulmer Münster" (as in Straßburger Münster, Freiburger Münster etc.), I can not remember to have heard any other name, certainly not "Ulmer Dom" [1] or "Ulmer Kathedrale" [2]. -- Matthead  Discuß   01:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Certainly; I was just wondering if the discussion of whether 'Münster' should be translated as 'Cathedral' misses a nuance if we're talking about a specific instance. Take for example Yankee Stadium & Fenway Park. When they occur alone, the words 'stadium (baseball)' & 'park (baseball)' should be translated in a localized non-English Wikipedia (and furthermore those words could plausibly map to the same non-English word, just as Münster and Dom when they occur alone may map to 'cathedral' albeit with an asterisk), but when referring to those /particular/ ballparks, I hope one would never localize the words stadium or park as part of their respective names, and the terms become non-interchangeable in English (no 'Fenway Stadium') because when talking about specific instances like this they are no longer simply describing form/function, but are really part of the proper name. If a native German speaker is referring to the Ulmer Münster in English, would he say "Ulm Cathedral" or "Ulm[er] Münster"? Ripe (talk) 03:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• Moved - Nabla (talk) 11:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ripe, I don't think your test is the best one. The hypothetical German speaker might say "Münster" or he/she might say "Cathedral"; the question afterwards is whether they were using conventional English or not. I see where your going with the bit about not localizing any part of a proper name. The problem is that even proper names get localized all the time, to make things clearer and more vivid to users of the local language. For example, not a single language listed in the interwiki links of White House keeps the English spelling: every language localizes this obviously proper noun. No one is demanding that Spanish speakers forsake the immediately comprehensible "Casa Blanca" and learn the foreign words "White" and "House". Given that "Münster" is much more obscure to an English reader than "Cathedral", I think there is a cost to putting the name at "Münster". Already, with "Ulm Münster" we have done some localization of the putatively sacrosanct proper name (it should be Ulmer Münster.) So why not localize full heartedly and go with Cathedral, as in my proposal above? As an added benefit, this will follow actual English usage, as demonstrated.Erudy (talk) 12:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I think this move was a bit premature. Perhaps I'm missing it, but I don't really see consensus yet. Of course, I don't really agree with the move, so perhaps I'm a bit biased:) Erudy (talk) 12:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

OK I don't oppose moving it to Ulm Cathedral. 'Minster' was bugging me since it's not a popularly used form and for the obscurity of the term. Ripe (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me clarify the move I did. I was not 'closing' the discussion, I was aiming to clean the redirect page at 'Münster' so that a non-admin could later do the move, after you finish discussing it. In the process I left the page there as it was the leading option - and one that sounded fair. By the way, I then forgot that the redirect at 'cathedral' gets automatically fixed leaving it with a edit history that prevents moving to there by a non-admin. It is now a simple redirect and you may move it there too. I'm sorry for any inconvenience, and for not explaining myself before.

Since I'm here... The general rule is to use the common English denomination for titles, and for what I've read above that is probably 'cathedral', or eventually whatever 'münster' means. Even if 'münster' is part of the proper noun (like it or not... I don't like to see proper nouns translated, but it is an understandable rule).

Enjoy! - Nabla (talk) 23:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Somehow there is a "cathedral problem" all over wikipedia as far as German churches are concerned. "Dom" and "Münster" CAN be cathedrals, but not necessarily. There should be a common solution for all German churches containing "Dom" or "Münster" in their name. I noticed people now translate "Deutscher Dom" (a former church in Berlin) as "German cathedral". That doesn't make sense at all. No native speaker would call it the "Deutsche Kathedrale", and it has never been a cathedral either. It's "just" a Dom (an imposing church, with a large dome in that case). If it goes on like this, wikipedia will drown in German "cathedrals". Anyway, for the time being I think you've found a good solution. Calling the Ulmer Münster a cathedral, and then explaining immediately that it isn't one. Mk4711 (talk) 08:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't see the slightest reason why we should call the "Ulmer Münster" the "Ulm cathedral"! Nobody in Ulm/Germany would ever call it "Ulmer Kathedrale" (the Ulm people are proud to have a "Münster"!) and the English term for "Kathedrale" is "cathedral", as well as the English term for "Münster" ist "minster". So please change it into the correct specification "Ulm minster"! Judith M-S (talk) 10:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Not in any way a cathedral. "Ulm minster" would be correct, but it is fine where it is at. -- Secisek (talk) 16:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the problem about using the proper translation "Ulm Minster". It may sound strange to Americans but in England there are so many big churches called minster like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George%27s_Minster,_Doncaster and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_Minster. 80.132.5.81 (talk) 12:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. So can we change it into the correct term now, please?! Judith M-S (talk) 13:45, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I want to ask once more if we could change it now. What more evidence do we need to finally change it? Judith M-S (talk) 09:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Height

In the header: 160,9 m; in the infobox: 162 m; (and in the finnish wiki article 161,53 m). Which one is right? 85.217.50.236 (talk) 23:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)