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Sun Way Flight 4412

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WP:NOTNEWS. Planes fall from the sky far too often for every one to be notable and the airline the aircraft belonged to isn't even notable. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The Il-76 is a large aircraft. The fact that the airline does not have an article does not mean that it is not notable. This accident completely destroyed the aircraft, killing all eight crew on board, as well as between 4 Aviation Herald and 18 Korrespondent (in Russian) ground casualties. Coverage has been worldwide, including Russia, United States and the United Kingdom, thus establishing coverage outside the immediate local and regional press. Mjroots (talk) 19:18, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - So what if the airline the jet belonged to isn't notable? A quad-jet cargo aircraft crashing into a dense neighborhood of a major city is a very significant event. Very extensive worldwide coverage. There's evidence this was caused by a bird strike and this case will most certainly be studied for a long time to come in efforts to understand and hopefully prevent tragedies like this again.--Oakshade (talk) 19:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep - per the two preceding Keep comments. Also, this seems to be a frivilous AFD just for the heck of it - no real thought at all, just a vague NOTNEWS comment. - BilCat (talk) 20:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you read Wikipedia:Speedy keep Bilcat. MickMacNee (talk) 00:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This user knows I cannot respond to him under the terms of my unblock. Scch comments are obviouslyt baiting. Suggest a one-week block would be appropriate,and that the admin then mysrteriously be unable to log on for 20 hours to respond to unblock requests. ;) - BilCat (talk)

I didn't know actually. Looking at your archive it seems HJMitchell neglected to tell me anything about this unblock binding promise of yours to stay away from me, or that he had told you he would "see to it that he avoids you as far as humanly possible ". If I was remotely aware of such a notification infact, why would I have posted to your own talk page just yesterday? Rather than calling for me to be blocked on the assumption that I must have known you had promised to avoid me, I suggest you wait to see if Mitchell will explain how he can invoke an interaction ban without notifying one of the affected parties. The only ban I'm interested in is you not repeating what you did to get blocked, and it seems that was what was originally offered to you in the first place. I can hardly have been expected to have been following the progress of your unban negotiations, if you recall I was rather busy at the time with my own conversations with admins and other interested observers. Infact, I'm pretty sure you and I interacted at the Qantas Afd, how come you never mentioned this then? MickMacNee (talk) 01:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let's assume good faith. Under the current version of WP:AIRCRASH, accidents don't necessarily merit a stand alone article unless they also pass the significance test of WP:EVENT, and WP:NOTNEWS is a legitimate concern when an article is created in response to news. While my personal opinion is that a guideline that used to be way too inclusive has evolved into way too strict, it's a fair question about whether a recent news event can be expected to attain long range significance-- and in that instance, it's a matter of opinion. In this case, it was a cargo carrier rather than a passenger airliner, although there were also at least four people killed on the ground. The significance of a lack of an article about the Sun Way Airlines is that there's no redirect target if the consensus were that this didn't merit a stand alone article. Mandsford 20:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's always the aircraft article to rfedierct too. - BilCat (talk) 21:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I don't doubt that the nom is sincere in the nomination, almost every aviation accident article is being nominated for AFD now on the same NOTNEWS grounds - and the majority are kept. Sincere or not, this is a collective waste of time, as there is no discernment evident in the nominations of the past few months. - BilCat (talk) 21:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, this accident is likely to be notable per WP:EVENT#Inclusion criteria: and WP:EFFECT: This event has received "widespread (national or international) impact and were very widely covered in diverse sources", and "It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable." - BilCat (talk) 21:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep - per WP:AIRCRASH, accident was fatal. --Kslotte (talk) 21:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That comment shows that you obviously don't understand either WP:SK or WP:AIRCRASH (which, if anyone's wondering, is an essay). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep - as per above comments. However I would add that wikipedia is used around the globe and it is not necessary for everything to be notable everywhere. For example in this case, for the people of Karachi this incident is very notable as it is the second aircraft crash in thirty days, moreover it was a large aircraft that crashed into a dense residential area. Furthermore there were no survivors from the crew and there were casualties on the ground. Taqi Haider (talk) 21:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep; a large plane crash, with worldwide coverage of the incident, is not routine news coverage and does not fall under WP:NOTNEWS. C628 (talk) 22:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The fact it was a big plane, or that some people died, or that it was caused a bird strike, or that it occured so soon after a completely unrelated accidents, or that it fits one editors personal idea of what is and is not routine news, or that an editor thinks people will for sure investigate it in future, are all pretty poor ways to actually rebut a NOT#NEWS and WP:EVENT nomination. I would also dispute that the coverage in this article demonstrates international impact, or widespread coverage in diverse sources. They are all simply wire news reports, saying pretty much the same thing, and with not much depth at all beyond what you would normally expect a news report to contain. It got reported in Russia for instance, because it was a Russian crew. In terms of how news organisations work, I'd say that was a case of perfectly normal and routine international reporting, and not something an encyclopoedia would consider worthy of inclusion per NOT#NEWS, without other supporting factors, as for example expanded upon in EVENT, which have not been shown to exist here. MickMacNee (talk) 00:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC) Oh, and it crashed in an unfinished construction project on a naval base - that is not a "dense residential area" by any stretch of the imagination. It may have crashed near a residential area, which is a reasonable assumption given that it got into difficulties climbing away from an airport, but then again, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. MickMacNee (talk) 00:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 ::::I suggest you read [[Wikipedia:Speedy keep]] Bilcat. [[User:MickMacNee|MickMacNee]] ([[User talk:MickMacNee|talk]]) 00:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 :::::This user knows I cannot respond to him under the terms of my unblock. Scch comments are obviouslyt baiting. Suggest a one-week block would be appropriate,and that the admin then mysrteriously be unable to log on for 20 hours to respond to unblock requests. ;) - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]])
+::::::I didn't know actually. Looking at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:BilCat&oldid=394392733 your archive] it seems HJMitchell neglected to tell me anything about this unblock binding promise of yours to stay away from me, or that he had told you he would "see to it that he avoids you as far as humanly possible ". If I was remotely aware of such a notification infact, why would I have posted to your own talk page just yesterday? Rather than calling for me to be blocked on the assumption that I must have known you had promised to avoid me, I suggest you wait to see if Mitchell will explain how he can invoke an interaction ban without notifying one of the affected parties. The only ban I'm interested in is you not repeating what you did to get blocked, and it seems that was what was originally offered to you in the first place. I can hardly have been expected to have been following the progress of your unban negotiations, if you recall I was rather busy at the time with my own conversations with admins and other interested observers. Infact, I'm pretty sure you and I interacted at the Qantas Afd, how come you never mentioned this then? [[User:MickMacNee|MickMacNee]] ([[User talk:MickMacNee|talk]]) 01:50, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 ::: Let's assume good faith.  Under the current version of [[WP:AIRCRASH]], accidents don't necessarily merit a stand alone article unless they also pass the significance test of [[WP:EVENT]], and [[WP:NOTNEWS]] is a legitimate concern when an article is created in response to news.  While my personal opinion is that a guideline that used to be way too inclusive has evolved into way too strict, it's a fair question about whether a recent news event can be expected to attain long range significance-- and in that instance, it's a matter of opinion.  In this case, it was a cargo carrier rather than a passenger airliner, although there were also at least four people killed on the ground.  The significance of a lack of an article about the Sun Way Airlines is that there's no redirect target if the consensus were that this didn't merit a stand alone article.  [[User:Mandsford|Mandsford]] 20:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)