Talk:Richard Littlejohn

Removal of material from last year

Please see this edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Littlejohn&action=historysubmit&diff=267435526&oldid=267416879 which removed material about the Michael Winner incident. It was removed as unsourced. I remember this incident and it did indeed happen. Could someone please find a suitable source to back it up and restore it to the article? 15:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.252.60.26 (talk)

Johann Hari

I feel it is a tad unfair having a Johann Hari section. He is a very outspoken and hardline left-wing journalist so his views on Richard Littlejohn are hardly neutral. I think this section should be removed for NPOV. If there was a section on Hari's entry with Littlejohn slagging him off there would be outrage. I feel this unbalanced section should be deleted Christian1985 (talk) 23:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

What specifically are the issues with this section? Describing someone as "hardline left-wing" without explaining what you mean isn't terribly clear. As for the article on Hari, there's an entire section called Public disagreements which lists several public arguments with people from all over the political spectrum, from Mark Steyn (on the right) to George Galloway (on the left).Autarch (talk) 12:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank You very much for your comment, if there is such a section on the Johann Hari article then that's fair enough I withdraw my suggestion to remove this section. However there is a group of IP users trying to add edits to the section referenced from 'AngryMob' which is clearly just a very biased left-wing blog. I have tried to explain that blogs are not reliable sources and they are not taking any notice. Anyway thank you for your advice Christian1985 (talk) 21:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Nick Griffin

Is there really any good reason for it to be in the lead section? Unlike the other descriptors, which are relatively neutral and shows his influence (bad or good), this is just there to make the point "Littlejohn is a shithead because fascists like him". Even if he is a shithead, it isn't for this reason. It just shows an anti-Littlejohn, anti-Mail, or leftist bias, something we constantly get accused of and should try not to appear. Sceptre ^(talk) 21:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

At best, the mention is trivia, at worst guilt by association - it shouldn't be in the lead, if in the article at all.Autarch (talk) 17:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Mention now removed.Autarch (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed that it should not be in the article at all. It's basically a reductio ad Hitlerum. ralian (talk) 16:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it was inappropriate for it to be in the lead, so I have moved it further down. It is highly notable and has attracted much comment in reputable sources, meeting NOTE criteria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.23.1 (talk) 01:26, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

The Guardian and reliable sources

WP:RS says Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources - there was an objection to a book review from the Guardian on the grounds that it was a secondary source - perhaps the editor meant primary source?Autarch (talk) 18:10, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually reading the RS guidelines you are correct I meant to say primary source. I just feel a book review is insufficient to be used as a reliable reference. It is just somebody's opinion on a book, this is not reliable account on the person in the article. I feel this is just an attempt to force negative material about Mr Littlejohn into the article. Christian1985 (talk) 22:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

No, NOTE criteria are very clear. It is well-sourced to a reptuable national newspaper, making it an established fact. You cannot remove facts just because they are not congenial to you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.23.1 (talk) 01:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Criminal Record??

Is there any reason for the 'Criminal Record' section to be in the article? I feel this is just an attempt by a Littlejohn critic to try and force negative material into the article. I feel there is no need for it to be there as it is just pointless trivial information. I suggest it should be removed. Christian1985 (talk) 11:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Sure, it's negative, but it's sourced, and to a reliable source, and we certainly don't exclude information about crimes in someone's past. However, while I don't agree with your conclusions regarding the reason it's in the article, I think it's probably a rather minor thing, and could be removed. However, we should wait to see if there's anyone else to offer any input here for, say, a week, to gather a consensus. There's no rush. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 05:42, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I very strongly disagree. It has an impeccable source, and is a subject of controversy meeting the NOTE criteria. It is not trivial that he has convictions for acts of violence; not at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.23.1 (talk) 01:24, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the 'criminal record' seems to derive from the 'Pass Notes' column of The Guardian (4 March 1994) which stated "Any scandals? Not really, but for what it's worth he was fined £20 aged 17 for brawling outside a Peterborough nightclub." I think this is such a small issue and so long ago that it really ought not to be mentioned. A fine of £20 in the early 1970s was hardly the punishment for a major criminal offence. Sam Blacketer (talk) 20:54, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Littlejohn referred to it in his 1993 appearance on Have I Got News For You readily available online. Specifically the conviction was for Affray and the fine was for £40. For comparative purposes, the amount was the average weekly take home pay around 1974, though I am not sure if it was median or mean. A link probably infringes copyright, but for any interested party the relevant passage is from about 2'30" in the third part. Philip Cross (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

It is +outrageous+ that one biased editor keeps removing impeccably sourced information about Littlejohn's criminal record and praise from Nick Griffin

This must stop. It's totally unacceptable. They meet the NOTE and NPOV criteria very clearly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.24.133 (talk) 01:04, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Both of these issues have been discussed several times and there was a consensus to remove these edits. They are simply pointless negative information and should stay removed. Please stop restoring them and do not hurl abuse at editors for removing them. What does it matter if Littlejohn has a criminal record for something petty decades ago. There are lots of famous people with criminal records for petty things, it has no place on an encyclopedic article. Christian1985 (talk) 16:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Anybody reading the material above can see there is absolutely no consenus to remove this material. three people comment: one is against, one is equivocal, and one is for. By no definition is tyhat a consensus. It is contrary to the wikipedia rules to keep removing well-sourced material in these circumstances.

Convictions for acts of violence are not "trivial." It was reported in an impeccable source, the Observer, and should remain. Being praised by a far right leader is not "trivial. Again the sources are impeccable: the Independent newspaper. You must stop this.David r from meth productions (talk) 21:40, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

We opened a discussion on it and noone replied and now people are moaning because trivial material is removed. I feel it is trivial information. You call me biased but you are clearly biased to the left. This is simply an attempt to try and smear Littlejohn by forcing negative information in his article. I feel it is unfair how all the 'sources' are left-wing newspapers, I feel they are biased sources. Notice there is no negative information in the left-wing articles like Johann Hari, The Guardian or The Independent. I may refer this to dispute resolution as there is a conflict of interest. We need a third party view I feel. Christian1985 (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm very happy for there to be a third party come in at this point and I'm happy to have an ongoing dialogue with you while we wait for their judgement. Far from being 'biased to the left', I am a Conservative voter. Wikipedia doesn't work by dismissing people with their own perspectives but by requiring all material and entries to be factually sourced and neutrally phrased. These claims are very well-sourced to national newspapers, not denied by the subject, and far from trivial. If a prominent public figure who advocates being 'tough on crime'; himself has a criminal record for violence, that's not trivial. If a prominent public figure is praised by the leader of the BNP, that's not trivial. They are described neutrally in this entry.

I am however keen to achieve compromise with you. In the interests of balance, I think it would be useful for you to find some quotes where Littlejohn criticises the BNP and rejects their leader's praise, I know there are some. Please insert them clearly and prominently into the article. I believe that would achieve the effect you seek, without removing highly valid and pertinent information so other wikipedians can't see it. I hope you're happy with this compromise and I'm happy to discuss it with you further. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.28.111 (talk) 00:45, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your comment, that sounds very reasonable and I completely agree. I will see about gaining a third party comment. Christian1985 (talk) 10:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Criminal record should stay in. Nick Griffin comment shouldn't be. Sure, they're both fascist demagogues, but the inclusion of the Nick Griffin comment is, as I've said above, an example of guilt by association. Sceptre ^(talk) 13:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Sceptre, what if it is balanced by quotes from Littlejohn condemning the BNP? I do think it's a salient fact... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.28.94 (talk) 10:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't belong in the article full stop. It is simply a deliberate attempt to force negative information into the article to smear Mr Littlejohn. Unlike most on here, I actually read the Mail and Littlejohn regularly condemns the BNP as does the paper. The article should be left as is. Christian1985 (talk) 21:13, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I personally think the newspaper doesn't go far enough to condemn the BNP, as they still share a lot of talking points on the overstated problems of immigration and "elf and safety" and "yuman rites". It's like the person who seems forced to say "I'm not being racist, but...", you know? Sceptre ^(talk) 23:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

While the Nick Griffin source seems to be okay, there is no reference to the criminal conviction in the 70's (I just checked the review in the references), so I'll be removing it until someone can come up with a verifiable source. Skeptic sid (talk) 18:17, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Skeptic sid, the 'reference' does not support the claim made by the creator of that section. The 'reference' is also a book review from a left-wing newspaper hardly a solid source. I have removed this section from the article. If it is restored without a proper reference it will be reverted. Christian1985 (talk) 19:40, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. The Observer newspaper is a very reliable source and easily meets BLP and NOTE criteria. I'm putting it back and will appeal for adjudication. You seem to misunderstand the concept of 'bias': if a reliable newspaper makes a factual statement that somebody has a criminal record, then the 'bias' of the person speaking is irrelevant: it's either a fact or it isn't, and the Observer have reported it as a fact, and many years later have not published a correction, as they frequently do and would have had to if it was incorrect. Bias affects the expression of opinion, which quite properly is not included in this entry. If we were inserting statements like, say, 'Richard Littlejohn is a fool', that would be bias and would quite rightly be removed by me and other editors. I'm happy to discuss this but the Observer is unquestionbly a reliable source for a serious factual charge like this, and this is unquestionably a matter that meets NOTE criteria. David r from meth productions (talk) 03:19, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

But the source is a book review and it does not support the claim made in the article. I will be removing it. A book review from a left-wing newspaper is hardly a solid source. As Skeptic Sid says above the 'reference' does not support the claim. Christian1985 (talk) 10:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

To Phillip Cross; the 'source' is a biased book review on a left-wing newspaper website. It is NOT a reliable source and even then the source does not support the claim made in the article. Please stop reposting it. A book review is not an article and not an acceptable source. It is just opinion. Christian1985 (talk) 16:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

What you think of The Observer is not a basis for excluding an article cited from that source, I was following Wikipedia practice in what constitutes a 'reliable source'. The exact quote (rendered in parenthesis) is as follows: "Let's pray that Richard's youthful conviction for brawling outside a Peterborough nightclub doesn't constrain what might otherwise be an understandable enthusiasm for the return of the birch." Easily missed. Review articles do not generally contain false information, whereas if this Guardian reference to Littlejohn's conviction for violence had been used it would be an unsatisfactory reference. That is because it is a deliberate mix of fact and invention. Philip Cross (talk) 16:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not excluding it because it is from a left-wing paper. But a book review does not meet reliable source guidelines. It is simply someone's opinion and therefore is not a reliable source. I have referred this matter to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. The 'source' does not support what is stated in the article. It is not a fact, it is written in an opinionated review. Christian1985 (talk) 17:01, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

"I am not excluding it because it is from a left-wing paper." Elsewhere you write: "The 'source' they are trying to use is a book review from a biased left-wing newspaper which is known to have a dislike of Mr Littlejohn." Philip Cross (talk) 17:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The Observer like all left-wing papers is well known to dislike Littlejohn and that review makes no secret of it. But I stand by what I say I am objecting to the edit because a book review is not a reliable source and the claim made in the article is not verifiable Christian1985 (talk) 17:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

If an editor wants to include a report of a criminal conviction of a BLP, it needs to be more reliably sourced than a book review's offhand comment ("Let's pray that Richard's youthful conviction for brawling outside a Peterborough nightclub doesn't constrain what might otherwise be an understandable enthusiasm for the return of the birch."). Moreover, by giving the alleged conviction its own section of one sentence, it gives it far too much prominence. If in fact Littlejohn was convicted of something when a juvenile, you need to find a reliable source that reports on the conviction directly.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:02, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

A book review is subject to the same fact-checking as any other part of a newspaper. If something is stated as a fact in a book review in a national; newspaper then it clearly clears BLP criteria. Please go and read the BLP criteria. There is no exclusion for book reviews.

No consensus on this issue has been reached permitting you to add this back just because you say so. I've reverted the change. Please keep the article the way it is unless there is a clear consensus that the information can be added. Also, note there is a discussion of this issue on the BLP notice board here. Feel free to express your views there.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Bbb23, there is no consensus it should be in the article. It was referred to the BLP noticeboard and it was agreed the section does not belong in the article. The 'source' doesn't even support the claims being made in the article anyway. As mentioned above, it is an 'offhand' comment in a book review, that is not reliable evidence. Please just leave it out of the article. Christian1985 (talk) 10:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The Observer source is too vague to be used here. It doesn't even specify what offence it claims he was convicted of ("brawling" is not an offence, assuming it's not referring to brawling (legal definition)) or describe in any detail what happened. We can't ensure accurate and neutral coverage of the incident based on this source. January ^(talk) 16:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

My point exactly, there is no mention at all of a 'criminal record', it doesn't mention the 70s, about the true thing is Peterborough. But as another contributor said above, it is simply an offhand comment in a book review, hardly an encyclopedic source.

I move that the section is left out of the article. Christian1985 (talk) 18:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm prepared to compromise - although I don't want to - on the criminal record. But the Nick Griffin section is impeccably sourced and highly relevant. If you're unhappy with it I suggest a reasonable compromise is to find quotes where Littlejohn condemns the BNP and rejects the endorsement of their leader to balance it. But this information absolutely should not be removed.David r from meth productions (talk) 12:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

That has a similar problem. It does not support exactly what the article says; "Littlejohn was described by Nick Griffin" because it does not quote Griffin. From what I can see it has three words "Griffin's favourite columnist" mentioned in passing to support another argument, this does not support the relevance of the addition. January ^(talk) 13:46, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

You can't keep putting in a comment that seems to dictate consensus when no consensus has been reached and then changing the article essentially based on your own comment. I've reverted your change until consensus has been reached about whether the comment by Griffini belongs anywhere and, if it does, where. My view is it's a trivial comment. Whether a notable person (Griffin) likes Littlejohn's column generally is of virtually no value. If Griffin had some relevant comments about something that Littlejohn said that was notable, it might be different. Even if it were worth mentioning (and I think it does not belong in the article at all), it doesn't merit the prominence of its own section. Please don't add it back in until consensus has been reached.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree strongly with Bbb23, I feel the Griffin bit has no place in the article. I have read the source and as with the criminal record problem, the source doesn't support the claim being made. It is an opinionated profile and a trivial comment by a left-wing article, it is not a solid verifiable statement of fact. It is like me saying Piers Morgan is Ed Miliband's favourite journalist because he wrote for the Daily Mirror. It is a trival offhand comment. I back Bbb23 in that the section should be removed. I will revert it. Christian1985 (talk) 16:33, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't favour inclusion either although my reasoning is different; the problem is not the suggested bias of the sources, it's the lack of detail - it's not clear whether Griffin actually said this or whether this is the opinion of the writer of the article. In any case it makes no sense to be creating an entire sub-section based on three words in the Independent. If this was significant there would be reliable sources reporting it in more detail. January ^(talk) 19:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the source doesn't back up the claims being made. I believe it is simply the opinion of the writer of the article. I agree there is no need for a whole section on such a trivial matter which doesn't even have a solid verifiable source. Christian1985 (talk) 19:21, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The source does not actually say 'Richard Littlejohn is Nick Griffin's favourite journalist'. It simplys say 'Richard Littlejohn-Griffin's favourite journalist' it is simply an offhand trivial comment where someone is making a biased assumption about Mr Griffin, it is not a statement of fact. Please stop putting it back in the article, a consensus has been reached that it does not belong in the article. Christian1985 (talk) 18:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

This is a news story from the Independent, June 27th, 2001:

"At least the British National Party knows whom it likes. And it likes Richard Littlejohn. Two weeks ago, David Aaronovitch wrote in The Independent that "Littlejohn may not be a racist, but his novel (To Hell in a Handcart) could be a recruiting pamphlet for the extreme right." How prescient. Next week's edition of New Nation, a weekly newspaper for the black community, contains an interview with Nick Griffin, the leader of the BNP. And who is Nick's favourite writer? Richard Littlejohn, of course. "I don't think Richard would want to comment on that at all," a nice lady at The Sun told Pandora. Perhaps he'd rather let the novel speak for itself."

Sadly it's not online that I can find, but it can be located in the print edition and on Lexis-Nexis. Wikipedia rules are very clear: it is legitimate to refer to a print source. It is a reputable newspaper saying that Griffin named Littlejohn as his favourite journalist in an interview. That absolutely belongs in this entry.— Preceding unsigned comment added by David r from meth productions (talk • contribs) 01:01, 22 December 2010 UTC

Even assuming it says that, it's trivial and doesn't belong in the article. Just because something is in a reliable source and is factually supportable doesn't automatically make it noteworthy. You've never explained why it "absolutely belongs in this entry."--Bbb23 (talk) 01:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Because of the recent attempts by User:EelJuice to keep this section in the article and to avoid an edit war, I've asked for help from the BLP Noticeboard here.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:47, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

That's a fair enough request. It's relevant because Littlejohn is very widely accused of being a far right winger, while Littlejohn denies it all the time. The fact he is praised by the most notorious far right-winger in Britain does cast light on that, in a way that's highly significant. David r from meth productions (talk) 13:08, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The relevance to a WP article is determined by the significance to his life/career, not what it might say about him or his ideology. Using Griffin's opinion of Littlejohn to support the idea that he is a far-right winger would be WP:SYNTH. January ^(talk) 17:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

An alternative source for the Littlejohn Affray comment would be Have I Got News For You, produced by Hat Trick Productions, broadcast 30th April 1993 on BBC2. Littlejohn is a guest on the programme and says that he had been convicted of affray 21 years earlier. The clip is on YouTube under the title HIGNFY S05E03 - Part 3 - go to about 2 mins 45. --FormerIP (talk) 16:42, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Great. Now we have an an indisputable source for the criminal record claim - Littlejohn himself - I'm putting it back in.David r from meth productions (talk) 14:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Controversy: Jody McIntyre

Littlejohn made some controversial remarks about the Ben Brown/Jody McIntyre interview recently. The Press Complaints Commission received loads of complaints about it but nothing's happened yet. Should it be included? Or should we wait until (and if) something more significant comes of it? Wikiditm (talk) 17:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I've put it in.

Warning

There's a campaign on twitter to try to edit this page re BNP almost-instinct 14:57, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Well whoever it is, will not succeed because the page is blocked to IP users and it is being closely monitored.