Talk:Somalia

Map and Somaliland

The map in this page is not correct, as it shows Somalia as if the Somaliland is a recognized independent country, which is not. While it might be OK to show the boundary between the Somaliland and the rest of Somalia, it needs to be same color as Somalia. andy 08:04, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Upload the original CIA Factobook image and add a dotted line [1]. --Jiang

Done. andy 13:12, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There is only one Somalia recognized by the international community, therefore the map should have one color and any enclaves such the so called Somaliland should be ruled .warsame --60.48.83.122, 09:37, 28 Oct 2004

First sentence?

The first sentence is a bit strong. According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/country_profiles/1072592.stm there is some kind of government now.

But that same report says A transitional government set up in 2000 only controls parts of the capital.

PMA 02:45, Nov 24, 2003 (UTC)

Economy section

The summary about Somalia's economy needs a rewrite. It will be very difficult to calculate GDP and other percentages, but Somalia is quickly becoming an economic power house in the Horn of Africa. Telecommunications in Somalia, for one, provides the cheapest rates on the African continent, with international rates going between 20 cents to 50 cents now. There are many pasta companies, fisheries and internet cafes that dot throughout the country. There is even a Coca Cola plant. Nov 12, 2004

I agree with the above paragraph. I challenge anybody to read this *Stateless in Somalia, and Loving It and remain satisfied with this entry in its current state.

Provisional government

May the people of Somalia be fortunate and may the provisional government never step foot in Mogadishu. --Golbez 03:59, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

Accuracy dispute

NOTICE: There are several obvious errors in this document. Unfortunately, I know very little about Somalia, which is why I came to this page. Somebody, however, should correct these mistakes. Suspected errors are followed by three parenthesized question marks.

From page, replaced with Template:Dubious. See Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute for more information on this kind of stuff--but it seems we do have a problem here. Wikiacc 22:47, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The page was vandalized by 64.60.74.162 on February 7, but the full extent was not realized. Every edit since then was a small fix of a part of the vandalism, so I have simply reverted it. Thanks for the catch.
— Ford 23:15, 2005 Feb 9 (UTC)

Cleanup

An anonymous user (Friedo, perhaps) tagged this article for cleanup. I cannot figure out why. The article is not perfect, but it is actually in pretty good shape, a good article relative to the rest of the encyclopedia. If someone wants to specify exactly why this article needs cleanup, then at least the other editors can address it. Better yet, those who think it needs cleanup can actually do it. I will remove the tag in the meantime, since without details it is an impossible request.
— Ford 22:53, 2005 Feb 10 (UTC)

Clarification

"Much of Somali society is highly organized and business is doing remarkably well." This is a very vague statement. What does it mean actually? Where are the statistics? --Eleassar777 07:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I put that sentence in. If you read the intro it leads one to think that's Somalia is a wasteland fraught with chaos. But that's not the case. Sure, it's anarchy in sense of no government, but much of it is organized and orderly, with a lot of business beng conducted. They even have internet cafes. One the the external links in this article points to a World Bank study showing how effective the private sector there is. HTML version There is also a link in the article in the Telecommunications sections showing how great business now that government is gone: [[2]] Also, look at these pictures from Somalia [[3] Look at the external link to Mogadishu University. The country now has more universities and more people getting an education now that government isn't functioning. Anarchy doesn't always mean disorder, so it needs to be clarified that there is some order in Somalia. RJII 17:30, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to agree with what is written in the section "Economy" of the article. --Eleassar777 21:08, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

You're right. That section definitely needs some serious updating. RJII 04:32, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

The economic section is a contradiction. "Somalia has a market economy. As one of the world's poorest and least developed countries", this statement seems to imply that a market economy leads to a country that is poor and impoverish. Gobstomper 01:11, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how that is a contradiction, nor do I see how it makes the "market economy = poor country" implication as you suggest. With no functioning central government, how could Somalia have a command economy? Somalia does have a market economy, and it is indeed one of the poorest countries. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:42, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Template

can someone set the table currectly?

Economy and POV

I can't really put my finger on it (well maybe I can), but I detect a POV creeping in through recent edits of the "Economy" section. I'm not sure how these specific economic hot spots (e.g. wireless telecom, internet cafes) benefit, for instance, the rural (and, I assume, pastoralist) Somalians who form the majority of the population. I'm not sure if it's what the editor(s) are trying to put across, but it comes off as "laissez-faire economics are good for Somalia, as evidenced by the growth of wireless telecom etc." It's far from suggesting that Somalia is some sort of libertarian Utopia, but reading between the lines, it feels as though that's where someone's edits are coming from. Perhaps the bigger point is that one should not expect to read between the lines in an encyclopedia.

Also the edits are leading to some (possible) contradictions:

". . . the socialist government of Siad Barre had suppressed free enterprise and neglected large parts of the country."

This comes off as criticizing the Barre government for intervening in the economy ("suppressing free enterprise"), but also for not intervening ("neglect"). ("Socialist" and "suppressed free enterprise" had been added more recently to the earlier version of the sentence.)

The wireless communications sector is important enough that the World Almanac 2004 lists it as one of Somalia's light industries. ("Economy: Industries: A few light industries, incl. sugar refining, textiles, wireless communication.") But I'm wondering if it's listed only because it is one of the only sectors sufficiently organized to qualify as an "industry."

I would also not describe the situations in Somaliland and Puntland as anarchy - they may not be de jure (i.e. internationally recognized) governments but they are de facto governments. On the other hand I would also consider the warlord militias as "de facto governments" (and thus not "anarchists") in the basic sense of imposing one's will over that of another. For what that's worth.

-- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:56, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with you, and I'm not sure that you are out of line suggesting a "Somalia is libertarian Utopia"-POV to the recent edits. The optimistic tone of the contributions, despite the fact that factionalization continues to lead to much bloodshed, is quite strange and surreal. - BanyanTree 19:56, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the tone is clearly trying to present Somalia as a poster-child for anarcho-capitalism whilst not being too blatant. Morwen - Talk 09:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Certainly, there are libertarian/anarchist elements out there that are looking on Somalia with great interest, it's a forbidden experiment and thus far it's doing extremely well, considering the situation and obstacles. Any NPOV article requires that side to be shown, since it's so unique in the world today. --Golbez 10:06, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Golbez is right. We cannot simply assume that more government is always better and that's the feeling I get when reading this article. Some argue that the violence is due to power struggles related to the formation of a new government. Violence that wouldn't exist if the current system was left intact.

History

Can anyone add history of Somalia prior to 1977? 207.225.246.225 23:30, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is on there, but for brevity's sake, the history section starts in '77. If you wantto read the complete history of Somalis, you can click History of Somalia. --Soomaali

Map and Puntland

The current map showing regions of control is inaccurate. That map has Puntland controlling almost all of Somalia. If that was the case, then why is Somalia considered as having no central government? Puntland has never considered secession, but is only supposed to be an organized/governed region. If such a region extends over most of Somalia, then ipso facto Somalia would have a government. Besides, a check on the web (google or yahoo) will not turn up a single map that shows Puntland as extensive as the one depicted here (except for the imitator websites like Answers.com).

New book

I become angry by reverts with comments like: "Remove advertising for a little known, and highly biased book" [4] of people without any respect and standard of knowledge.

The book is a new one. It is still not to buy. I list the book because it gives the reader the possibility to self-improvement on the law and culture in Somalia. There is nothing better for this widely unknown topic. Maybe it is a POVed resource. But all books and links are less or more POV. This is no problem so long as the reader know what he gets. --Irgendwer 10:50, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

There are a lot of very good books on Somalia published each year. For instance Peter D. Little's Somalia: Economy Without State is a well regarded work on this subject, and there are many others. By contrast the one you are adding is an unreleased work by a little known author from a non-academic press. Moreover it seems to less be a work about Somalia and more be an investigation of anarchist/libertarian ideas. - SimonP 13:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

So what? Somalia: Economy Without State is not a book on Somali Law. Please take note of facts. And this topic is the mainly academic work of Michael van Notten in 13 chapters. The book will be published this year. Your opinion about the publisher is extraneous. And "it seems to less be a work about Somalia" is completely wrong. I know this. If you need more information about the book, you may contact the friendly editor Spencer Heath MacCallum. But he would shake his head on seeing your silly comments here. --Irgendwer 15:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm very impressed that the book has 13 chapters, but that doesn't make it an academic work. I have yet to see it reviewed anywhere, and my university libraries give no indication that they have ordered copies. It doesn't even seem to be available on Amazon.com. - SimonP 16:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

The book has more than 13 chapters. I'm very impressed of your ignorance. There is already one review on the website and the description of the publisher. It is written in a academic style. It seems to me you want vandalize the entry. --Irgendwer 17:21, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Red Sea Press appears to be a specialty publisher whose books pertain specifically to East Africa (Ethiopia in particular). I wouldn't dismiss this book solely based on its publisher. FWIW, I'm pleased with the one title I have of theirs, Ethiopia: From Bullets to the Ballot Box by Kinfe Abraham. Having said that, I must reiterate my comments below that it is useless to link to a book that is not yet available. If you are going to add this link, do so when the book actually comes out. I also suggest that you not add this again under "Further reading," make another external link instead. I put this under "Further reading" in a previous edit and now consider it a mistake. "Further reading," like "References," is for works that are the actual sources of the information in the article. As the book in question has not yet come out, it can't be a source, and won't be until the article specifically incorporates material from the book. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add that it isn't useful to direct readers to a book that isn't available. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

It is available in some weeks and it is already avaiable in parts on the website. This problem is only temporary and it concerns also to other printings. --Irgendwer 15:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Possible primary source

I happened across the following article which has a lot of good information: http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol1/v1c11e.htm Some of this would be useful as-is, but there is a copyright notice at the bottom, and it appears thatr works by the Canadian government are not in the public domain [5]. If nothing else there is a lot of info. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:47, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Somalia as "free market anarchy"

A society cannot be both in anarchy (no government) and be a free market. A free market requires a huge level of regulation and coercion to maintain its existence, for example a legal and judicial process for dealing with cases of fraud and theft. I don't suppose these are provided under anarchy. Even libertarians know that the free market requires some government. "Free market anarchy" is a contradiction in terms; it should just say, "anarchy". I won't presume to make changes to the first paragraph without discussion, however.

I wouldn't say it was in complete anarchy either, the Warlords provide de-facto government, or at least some aspects of government. I'd prefer it read "No central government". Somaliland, which is part of Somalia (although vying for independance iirc) certainly has a functioning government. - FrancisTyers 11:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Hence my previous comments (#Economy and POV). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

LOL!, I just repeated nearly exactly what you said without having read it ;) What are the chances of that? :) - FrancisTyers 03:20, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

A free market, by its idealized definition, is a market devoid of coercion. And, anarchy in its idealized sense is the lack of coercion, so a free market IS anarchy --economic anarchy. Now, as far as "free market anarchy," that's a philosophical theory where "government" is privatized --it's funded like a business is funded, rather than by taxation (and so it IS a business rather than a government). "Free market anarchism" is also identifiable by the philosophies called anarcho-capitalism and individualist anarchism. Here's a relevant quote by individualist anarchist Victor Yarros: "Anarchism means no government, but it does not mean no laws and no coercion. This may seem paradoxical, but the paradox vanishes when the Anarchist definition of government is kept in view. Anarchists oppose government, not because they disbelieve in punishment of crime and resistance to aggression, but because they disbelieve in compulsory protection. Protection and taxation without consent is itself invasion; hence Anarchism favors a system of voluntary taxation and protection." So, if Somalia has a system of private competing businesses providing protection of individual liberty, private property, enforcing contracts, adjudicating disputes, etc. (and I'm not saying it does), then it would be "free market anarchy." RJII 02:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[From thread-starter] That's very interesting, I'd never thought of this idea before. I suppose that a system of, basically, private vengeance could enforce the rules of the market (eg. like the enforcement of criminal sanctions by vendetta not by a State). I take your point, although I'm unsure that private security arrangements can be called 'government'. You might agree that this complex idea would have to be explained a little in the article, if we go with it.

Right, it's not government if it doesn't tax and only uses its power in defense of liberty rather than in agression -it's business. Somalia has a whole isn't free market anarchy, however some areas may be. There are private police in some areas. Mogadishu has private police that patrol the city streets for petty crime. These are funded by businessmen who got together to fund them. [6] [7] So with private police, private courts, and no taxation, Mogadishu may actually be free market anarchy or anarcho-capitalism. RJII 17:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Flag

I had to remove the flag as it linked to an offensive image. Bearbear 18:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)