Talk:Fear, uncertainty, and doubt

Security

I removed the bizarre reference to a CVE-2008-5353 proof of concept under the "Security FUD" section. The applet in question worked for months, and then was disabled when Apple patched their software. I don't see how that can be considered "FUD" -- especially FUD intended to sell a security product -- since the vulnerability was known and unpatched for a year, the demo applet was widely reported to work successfully before the issue was patched, and author of the applet in question doesn't work in security and doesn't sell security software. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.127.172 (talk) 19:44, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

What happened with the clarification and examples of FUD, at the very top? The thing about "paper from a Harvard professor" and how to dispel FUD? I thought it was enlightening and instructive how to dispel FUD. Please put that explanation back! Right now, it is to vague description of FUD. It needs some examples and clarification, and above all, explain how to counter FUD, how to dispel FUD. What else should my company do, when we face FUD? I need to see that explanation again.

FUD in and of itself

I always thought of FUD as a term used in the IT industry. Seeing the use of the term FUD expanded into politics, etc. is just total POV fluff. You could argue that FUD has been around since humans first learned to communicate with one another, or, to make it even fluffier, you could say that FUD is a tool that has been used by many organisms in the natural selection process since life began on this planet (or galaxy, or universe, or multiverse). But what would be the point of that? This whole article is just a one line definition of FUD, followed by a bunch of non-neutral POV fluffy examples. Did I mention how fluffy this article is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.14.113 (talk) 02:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

FUD refers to something more specific than just human "lying", it's more akin to industrial sabotage. Either way, the examples don't illustrate any POV problems whatsoever... Maybe you're suggesting another problem with the article? Johnny "ThunderPeel2001" Walker (talk) 11:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Recent developments

This needs a re-write. Drop the mention of Apple as mentioned in the section below. Remove all the vague references to unnamed groups of people spreading supposed FUD. Remove the stuff about FOSS advocates being accused of FUD. The keener FOSS advocates are accused of rabid zealotry by their foes and not FUD. Remove the references to Slashdot - one is an ad hominen attack and the other is a really dull post about FUD-Lite. Reomve the stuff about 'Werewolf' as it's irrelevant. Rewrite what remains into something better approximating English. Something like this perhpas:

"Since the 1990s the term has become associated more with industry giant Microsoft than IBM. The Halloween documents, leaked internal Microsoft documents whose authenticity was verified by the company, use the term FUD to describe a potential tactic: "OSS is long-term credible … [therefore] FUD tactics can not be used to combat it."[3] More recently, Microsoft has issued statements about the "viral nature" of the GNU General Public License (GPL), statements which Open Source proponents purport to be FUD.

The SCO Group's 2003 lawsuit against IBM, claiming intellectual property infringements by the open source community, is also regarded by some as being an attempt at spreading FUD. The suggested fear is that using Linux without a licence from SCO leaves the user vulnerable to intellectual property infringement lawsuits of their own. IBM directly alleged in its counterclaim to SCO's suit that SCO is spreading FUD.[4]"

I agree, rewrite this. The section on the Consoles and Video Games is hardly an example of FUD. I'm not saying the industry doesn't have any FUD, but the examples given or cited do not qualify. 165.206.43.5 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It's still a FUD war, with Microsoft supporters claiming FUD on the part of FOSS advocates. It needs a lot more of "[referenceURL they] say," and in general, sources for all statements, or else the unsourced statements need to be removed.Cherlin 23:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Apple

"Although once it was usually attributed to IBM, in the 1990s and later the term became most often associated with industry giant Microsoft and Apple Computer." This sentence is followed by accounts of Microsoft's relationship to FUD, but Apple never appears in the article again. Why is Apple mentioned?emw 18:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's the whole FUD campaign against the Zune, and the one against PCs - but it's weird that it's not mentioned, yeah. Aerothorn 17:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The Mac VS. PC ads are classic FUD. Jmical (talk) 17:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Ballmer quote

I'm moving this to the Talk page until it can be attributed, especially as Google returns no hits for it:

In a 2004 interview on the growing prominence of Linux, Steve Ballmer's FUD-based ideas had racist undertones, when he commented, "Are you going to trust some guy in China?"

63.172.187.134 22:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Steve Ballmer's FUD-based ideas had racist undertones, when he commented, "Are you going to trust some guy in China?" -Sounds like this might have been taken out of context, can anyone confirm or deny this?

Yes.

Noting that Microsoft has professional developers working with a common methodology, he (Ballmer) said, "Should there be a reason to believe that code that comes from a variety of people, unknown from around the world, should be somehow of higher quality than that from people who get paid to do it professionally?

"There's no reason to believe it would be of higher quality. I'm not necessarily claiming it should be of worse quality, but why should code submitted randomly by some hacker in China and distributed by some open source project, why is that, by definition, better?"

So it is sophistry, it is FUD, it is racist, and it is anti-hacker, as though hackers are all bad guys writing Trojan horses.

"I was reading a sign high on the wall behind the bar:

"'Only genuine pre-war British and American whiskeys served here,'

"I was trying to count how many lies could be found in those nine words, and had reached four, with promise of more …"

--Dashiell Hammett, "The Golden Horseshoe"

It is possible, indeed easy, to argue that the following components of Ballmer's statement are intended to create fear, to create uncertainty, and to create doubt, and are false:

• methodology ("Trust us: We're experts!")
• reason to believe (vs fact)
• somehow (vs stated reasons)
• unknown (vs registered developers)
• no reason
• randomly (vs intentionally, with code review before checkin)
• some (as though that signifies something about the "hacker")
• China (well, not totally a lie, but there are a lot of other countries)
• hacker (as though hackers do nothing but write Trojan horses)
• some (as though that signifies something about the Open Source project)
• by definition (vs as a matter of observation and experience)

Cherlin 23:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that Ballmer's comments constitute racism, but they definitely constitute FUD. Saying 'a hacker in China'... China is a country, not a race. There's no mention of race in his statement. Any time a country other than America, Canada, or Great Britain is mentioned, racism is automatically assumed. 75.70.221.14 (talk) 17:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree to your questioning of the racism charge. Ballmer's choice of China as an example resonates most with my perception of the unaccountability of Chinese programmers and China's unwillingness to enforce international law and intellectual rights. However, for someone sensitive to issues of racism, I am surprised at your hyperbolic generalization about when racism is assumed.
Jojalozzo (talk) 18:38, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

---

Is this mere opinion or is there any factual evidence for this statement in the article "FUD against Microsoft-products exist also, but not in same extent as FUD against Open Source-products." ?? The Open-Source movement has been very vocal about spreading fear with regards to MS products.

It isn't FUD when it's factual. We can quote CERT and numerous industry experts on the security failings of MS products, including Windows, IE, Office, Outlook, and IIS.Cherlin 23:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Certainly the same can be done for OSS products thus validating Microsoft's claims about increased TCO of competing products. It's not FUD when my side says it might be more appropriate. Right now the FUD article is clearly biased and at least online there is far more FUD spread regarding Microsoft products than the other way around. 63.241.31.130 (talk) 00:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Dropping Open Source Confusing Reference

I think the definition needs to be sharpened up here and unproved references to open source need to be dropped. Although the author cites Raymond's words "any kind of disinformation used as a competitive weapon", FUD as a term today is actually used in a less inclusive sense in tech and forum dialogues.

Unless used as a simple counter-slur (which I've actually never seen), the term refers to a consciously decided upon marketing strategy for creating a semi-nebulous atmosphere of fear-uncertainty-doubt. That is what made the "Halloween documents" so interesting and left Microsoft open to the obvious mantle of succession for the old IBM's strategy.

As written, the element of pseudo-balance obscures the definition.

FUDD

I'd always heard it as FUDD: Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt, Despair, but it appears that this is merely a variation on the original. I see this term used a lot to describe Intel's business tactics. Anybody else use FUDD? dreddnott 16:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Fudforum.com

I removed the link to http://fudforum.org/forum/ from the external links section, since the forum does not appear to have anything to do with FUD as described in this article at all, but is the name of some forum software. If I am mistaken, feel free to add it back in with a comment here explaining how it relates. W 08:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Correct, FUDforum is an abbreviation of Fast Uncompromising Discussion forum. Naudefj (talk) 09:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

George W Bush vs. George HW Bush

I'm not aware of anything in the 2004 campaign that could be considered FUD.

LOL. What about the attacks on McCain, implying that his adopted daughter was illegitimate; on war heroes Max Cleland and John Kerry, accusing them of cowardice, treason, and other offenses; the constant claim that a vote for the Democrats was a vote for Al Qaeda, and other campaign slurs and dirty tricks? Continuing into the 2006 campaign, as it happens.

Perhaps the writer was thinking of George HW Bush and his use of Willie Horton in a quite cheap and base play towards racial fears in the 1988 race against Dukakis? Might this be a good example of political FUD?

That and much more, with a very long history. Sen. Joseph McCarthy, for example, or the 200-year old Federalist charge that Thomas Jefferson was, in effect, a Commie Pinko radical/Liberal wingnut intending to bring the Terror of the French Revolution to the United States. The Republican Southern strategy is more than a century old. They allied themselves with so-called Democrats in the South to support segregation overtly or covertly. Sen. Trent Lott's election as Minority Whip of the Senate is more than a little ironic.

Or Johnson vs Goldwater, with the nuclear blasts in the ads.

"I offer my opponents a bargain: If they will stop lying about me, I will stop telliing the truth about them."--Democratic Presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson

The Swift Boat Vets campaign most certainly was FUD, and I changed the sentence in the article to accurately reflect the reference given. It was incorrect anyway, citing that critics of Bush accused Kerry of FUD, which doesn't even make sense. Jmical (talk) 17:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Proof? Nah! Talking points all the way! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.175.74 (talk) 11:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Fucked-Up Data?

Hmm... ever since I first saw this term on Slashdot, I'd assumed that FUD stood for Fucked-Up Data. You learn something new everyday, lol. --Crnk Mnky 13:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You wern't too far off, and judging by most fud around at the moment, it comes down to that. Laurielegit (talk) 19:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

SCO

This section was uncyclopedic and violated NPOV. I've reproduced it here.

How does this relate back to Microsoft? Well SCO would not have been able to launch the legal attacks without the $ 50 million in backing it recieved from a venture capital firm named Baystar. Baystar front man Larry Goldfarb in a sworn deposition, stated "Sometime in 2003, I was approached by Richard Emerson [Microsoft's senior vice president for corporate development and strategy] about investing in SCO, a company about which I knew little or nothing at the time. Mr. Emerson stated that Microsoft wished to promote SCO and its pending lawsuit against IBM and the Linux operating system."

Which brings us to 2006's controversy over Microsoft, Novell, and Steve Ballmer's threats to sue Linux users for intellectual property rights infringement. Is Microsoft going to use some of its massive cash reservoir to launch legal action against users of Linux? Or is Ballmer engaging in FUD marketing to spur sales of the $ 400 Vista OS?

--DCrazy talk/contrib 02:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If this is not FUD then what is ? http://badvista.fsf.org/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.73.164.14 (talk)

This is counter-FUD. Since FUD is an entirely negative concept, counter-FUD is inherently positive. If you disagree, you're most likely Bill Gates or one of his subordinates, and should FOAD.

Well, j/k. But seriously, this does qualify as FUD, although it's mainly intended to counter the FUD campaigns by Microsoft. -- intgr 12:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

$100 laptop

Considering (if recently) the Gates Foundation has made a commitment to (for example) eliminate the Top 20 diseases in the world within a lifetime, I'm sure Microsoft donates $lots to AIDS research and etc, doesn't Gates' quote about a laptop being useless to a dying African family actually show no FUD at all? Maybe the explanation of the FUD is just poor here, but it's hard to dismiss the viewpoint of a guy who's working to (overstated example) eliminate AIDS instead of giving laptops to people dying of AIDS. In this instance at least, I see more honest concern than FUD (they could just donate that money to a foundation seeking to teach sustainable agriculture, or cure diseases, or fund hospitals....). I'm not putting down the project here, mind you, but in this instance, Gates has a big-time trump card on this front. Again, maybe I'm missing something.209.153.128.248 16:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

See also

Why is there a link to fanboyism? I don't really get the relevance.

Fanboys often like to FUD about rival products; see ATI fans vs. Nvidia fans, AMD vs. Intel. Rarely will there be an argumented debate, but often FUD tactics will be employed to convince an audience of the holy truth that ATI is way better and the GeForce cards just aren't reliable. Such is the relevance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.95.236.155 (talk) 08:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

Environmentalists FUD?

As somebody already stated on this talk page, it isn't FUD if it's true. Scientific evidence, which has not been refuted, has been provided on global warming that if we do not pass certain laws, it WILL result in a global cataclysm. That makes environmetalist scare tactics a rather bad example of FUD, since they are actually not spreading doubt or uncertainty, only justified fear. And if they do FUD, add a citation and specify the exact group that does, because it is a VERY far-fetched statement to say that global warming awareness campaigns are FUD tactics.You can't call ANYTHING FUD if it's backed with consistent logical and empirical arguments.

However, the FUD here on both sides of the argument are (assuming global warming is true) that: 1. It is empirically proven to be man-made, and thus preventable or reversible by human intervention. 2. That a law or set of laws will subsequently force the correct human intervention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.242.83.15 (talk) 20:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Added a fact tag. 98.216.65.79 (talk) 21:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Most extreme examples (such as "global catacylsm") come across very much as scaremongering rather than outright FUD (such outcomes are usually right at the extremes of predictions and aren't terribly plausible). Complete FUD, as opposed to scaremongering, is largely the tactic from the other side, which appears to rely almost entirely on fear ("It's all an excuse for the government to control you!") and uncertainty and doubt (constantly trying to cast doubt and uncertainty on research and researchers instead of actually doing some serious studies that show contrary results). Riedquat (talk) 17:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

SCO stock drops in the future past tense

The campaign evidently worked, as SCO stock skyrocketed from under $3 a share to over $20 in a matter of weeks in 2003. (It later dropped to around[11] $1.20—then crashed to under 50 cents on October 13 2007 in the aftermath of a ruling that Novell owns the UNIX copyrights). [12]

I don't know the exact date, but somebody made a chronology error on "October 13 2007." That's over a month from now —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.176.138.46 (talk) 06:56, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

naming

My english teacher always told me there should be a comma there after "uncertainty". Where is it and why does Fear, uncertainty, and doubt redirect here instead of the other way around? --froth^t 03:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

See Serial comma: There is no consensus among writers or editors on the use of the serial comma. It is nearly standard use in American English, but less common in British English. So it's probably a dialect thing. --ais523 18:04, 10 October

2007 (UTC)

While there is dispute, wouldn't it be clearer to have the title and the phrase in the first sentence use the same punctuation? Should the oxford comma be removed from the first sentence?64.223.170.118 (talk) 16:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Since the original use of the phrase "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" does not drop the comma, I can't see why this article does, unless it's somehow important for Wiki article titles to have as few characters as possible. We shuold probably change it back. Heian-794 (talk) 17:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

When does a legitimate warning become a FUD tactic? That MS press-releases spread FUD is Original Research.

I'd have thought that a warning isn't (necessarily) designed to spread FUD if:

• A) It's telling people something true which they might not know and would effect them, or
• B) It's a threat primarily aimed at getting something specific from the threatened party.

Since Microsoft's threats & warnings against GNU can be defended on these grounds, the existence of these threats doesn't act as strong enough evidence for FUD-tactics for Wikipedia to make the connection itself. (See WP:OR.)

Somebody needs to add a citation of a reliable commentor saying that they are FUD tactics before they can be offered here as evidence of Microsoft's perceived FUD spreading. (Again, please see WP:OR.) --Wragge 15:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Fudzilla

I remember that there used to be a separate article about Fudzilla. Where did it go? Was it deleted and why? Did my mind play tricks on me? Not a fan of that site. Just wondering. MadIce (talk) 18:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

McCain v.Obama

Wasn't the McCain campaign a good example of FUD? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.196.81.85 (talk) 02:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Not really. There might have been some here and there, but nothing even close to the 1964 Johnson campaign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.47.205.126 (talk) 19:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

POV problems

As I explained in my edit comment, which the person who removed the tag ignored despite looking up the edit to see who did it to mention it by name, "This article states over and over that certain things, acts, etc. were FUDs: That's someone's opinion, not a fact, and must be cited and worded to follow NPOV." Cited means explicitly to reliable sources arguing that the example was of FUD, woded to follow NPOV means that we specifically say WHO makes the claim instead of saying the claim is true, and we also would have to include info from sources that say it isn't FUD if any exist.

This are pretty basic rules. If you aren't familiar with the concepts, see WP:RS, WP:NPOV and some of our other fundamental core values here. DreamGuy (talk) 13:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the real estate section, the source provided [1] (source 19 in the article) returns an Error 404, and I was unable to find the article on Google. If the article or a new source cannot be found, I propose that the real estate section be taken out, as the second reference [2] (source 20) doesn't sound like FUD to me by any stretch. I don't want to remove the section without finding a new source, but this entire section is in no way following NPOV. ..."suggest that consumers are weak, intellectually lazy and fearful" hardly seems to be a NPOV to me, but I wasn't able to see the original source, so I'm probably not getting the whole picture, which is why I'm not trying to delete this section yet. Any advice / suggestions? SudoGhost (talk) 18:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Antivirus vs. Remote-Anything

There are major problems with this section. It lacks a neutral point of view and makes unsupported claims. At least one editor has felt it should be removed entirely as "Company posted propoganda[sic]". It is not clear to me that this is company-posted nor would that make any difference to me as long as the information is basically correct. I would prefer to have any errors corrected and the claims substantiated if they are true. As it is it's not a very good example of FUD since the only evidence presented is a court case that ended in favor the supposed FUD perpetrators. Jojalozzo (talk) 17:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Research paper example

I removed the following paragraph from the opening of the article:

FUD techniques may be crude and simple, as in claiming "I read a paper by a Harvard professor that shows you are wrong regarding subject XXX", but said paper does not exist. (Were the paper to exist then it would not be FUD but valid criticism.) Alternatively FUD may be very subtle, employing an indirect approach. Someone who employs FUD cannot generally back up their claims (e.g., "I don't recall which professor or which year the paper is from"). To dispel FUD, the easiest way is to ask for details and then provide well researched hard facts which disprove them. For instance, if it can be shown that no Harvard professor has ever written a paper on subject XXX, then the FUD is dispelled.

Not only is it not encyclopedic, it's completely irrelevant. This isn't FUD, it's just a lie and an argument from authority. Neither one of these things makes it FUD per se. I can't foresee any (less than total) modifications to this paragraph that make it appropriate for this article, so I took it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guido del Confuso (talk • contribs) 11:25, 6 April 2011 (UTC)