Talk:Christmas

Christmas, the non-christian holiday

Would it be such a big deal to acknowledge the simple fact that Christmas is celebrated by more than just Christians, and that it is a secular holiday all over the world. At the end of the day, the christmas tree, Santa, and many more traditions predate christianity! DasKaptain (talk) 22:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

So, there's a marvelous 600+ comment discussion on just this very point. Their conclusions aren't important-- it's not a representative sample or anything, but it has a lot of interesting points and links. It's nice because we only have a few people here, so it is kind of nice to see 600 discussions on the very same point.

The two big things that I noticed in the discussion is:

• Christmas in Hindu nations is fleshed out a great deal more from the point of view of people raised Hindu.
• It's pointed out that even in the US, courts have found a the secular definition of Christmas as an constitutionally-established federal holiday. (As it is in India and probably most countries around the world).

--Alecmconroy (talk) 05:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Since we are quoting possibly interesting but not necessarily Wiki-reliable sources now, here are some more:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6193235.stm claims that less than half of English/British(?) children associates Christmas with the birth of Jesus.

http://www.netwerk.tv/uitzending/2009-12-17/de-grote-kerst-enqu%C3%AAte (in Dutch) has some detailed results under the link "enquête", if you can read it. It shows that, when given 3 choices to pick from a list of 10 things to associate with Christmas, only 26% picked "religion" and 13% picked "church visit" in any of their 3 choices (overlap not documented). All other choices (except maybe 1% "don't know") were non-religious ("Santa Claus", "good food", "social obligations", etc). Part of these people are not Christian (but e.g. Muslim) so that e.g. "religion" does not necessarily imply "Christian". Furthermore, only 14% picked one of these two religious associations as their primary choice (and this still included non-Christians). Not surprisingly, more than half (56%) said not to be religious.

However, when given (only) the choice of associating Christmas with either Jesus or Santa Claus the majority (57%) still chose Jesus, while 39% chose Santa Claus (and 4% doesn't know). Interestingly this fact ("Jesus preferred over Santa Claus" or similar) was the headline that drew my attention to the enquiry. AlexFekken (talk) 13:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I should give an executive summary of this: A Dutch enquiry showed that only 14% of all interviewed primarily associates Christmas with something religious, while approximately 36% of the interviewed Christians did so. It seems that in the Netherlands even among Christians Christmas is not (primarily) a Christian holiday any more. AlexFekken (talk) 02:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with both the above editors and support a wording with less religious bias and POV. As of now the only 3 of us actually discussing the issue here are in complete agreement, which is also called "consensus". Doc Tropics 04:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I and other editors voiced our opinions in the above section. There is no discussion here at all regarding the wording of concern in the edit war. IMO it is in violation of both WP:OR and WP:WEASEL to say "most people" without a source. The sources in the opening sentences confirm that Christmas is a "Christian" holiday. — CIS ^(talk | stalk) 04:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Nominally, there is no doubt it is a Xn holiday, because its common name comes from a title for Jesus. However, there is also no doubt that Xty does not encompass the many different ways Christmas has been & is celebrated. A flat statement that it is a Xn holiday is somewhat misleading, even if the name is Xn.--JimWae (talk) 04:56, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd be willing to make a compromise and use the wording "Although nominally a Christian holiday" instead of the "Although most consider this to be a Christian holiday" wording. That conveniently gets rid of the OR and WEASEL problems. — CIS ^(talk | stalk) 05:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I would consider "nominally" to be an acceptable modifier in that sentence; it actually seems to capture the essence quite well. Good suggestion! Doc Tropics 05:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The word "nominally" is a reasonable edit in my opinion. I will make it so. Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 13:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Just checked the history of the article and found something quite humorous and interesting... my original revamp edit to the article in November 2009 actually used the exact quote "Although nominally a Christian holiday", but somehow it was changed since then. I honestly didn't recall having used that wording until just now—I must have subconsciously suggested it above.— CIS ^(talk | stalk) 20:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I think nominally brings us close enough for me to let the case rest for now. But I maintain that: The sources in the opening sentences confirm that Christmas is NOT JUST a "Christian" holiday. I have shown this repeatedly and no tenable counter arguments were ever given. AlexFekken (talk) 02:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Deleted "nominally" as the word clearly implies it is a Christian holiday in name only, which is clearly not true, as almost all Christians celebrate it as part of being a Christian. Even if other people celebrate it for reasons besides being a Christian doesn't mean it's not a Christian holiday. I know non-Mexicans who celebrate Cinco de Mayo for various reasons but that wouldn't make it a nominally Mexican holiday. Just label it as a Christian holiday, which it clearly is.Roy Brumback (talk) 23:05, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no such "clear implication", but that is ONE[1] usage of the word. "Literally" or "etymologically" could substitute. To say that "Christmas IS a Christian holiday" would be to overlook the many Xmas traditions that are not Xn, and the many non-Xn celebrations that are part of this solstice holiday.--JimWae (talk) 19:46, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Roy, you really need to reach some sort of consensus here before making an edit that was thoroughly discussed. I'm switching it back. If you can get more support through discussion, then a change may be warranted, but until then, you shouldn't make this change all by yourself.Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 19:54, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

The opening paragraph is worded carefully to avoid reference that Christmas is a "Christian holiday", as general consensus has been reached that even though Christmas is notable foremost as the marking of Jesus' birth, it is not a wholly Christian holiday and thus is not to be defined as such here. In the second paragraph, which is in question, the term "nominally" has been chosen to avoid this wholly Christian label. The first sentence of the second paragraph is meant to contrast the fact that although Christmas is "Christian in name at least", many modern non-Christians still celebrate the holiday. — CIS ^(talk | stalk) 16:14, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Good summary, CIS. Just to add to it...I think the intro clearly acknowledges the "Christianity" of Christmas. Nobody is trying to downplay the fact that Christmas is deeply associated with Christianity (and Christ). What we are trying to do is show that this is not exclusively a Christian holiday. I think that any neutral reader would be able to see that the Christian components of the holiday are quite notable and well represented in the article, as are the non-Christian components. As a paralell, when talking about Jesus, one may be tempted to indicate that he can be exclusively defined as the Christ according to Christians. That may be true, but he is more than the Christ. He was a Muslim prophet, an apocalyptic rabbi, a historical figure, etc. To a Christian, it may be clear that Jesus' role as Christ is his most important characteristic, but that would not be a neutral point of view to everyone (specifically, non-christians). Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 17:52, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Nope, sorry guys, Christmas is by 'definition' the celebration of Jesus' birth. If you're only celebrating gift giving or big dinners on Dec 25th, but not celebrating Jesus' birth, you are not celebrating Christmas. And you don't have to actually be a Christian to celebrate Jesus' birth, so you can celebrate Christmas without being a Christian, but that doesn't then make the celebration "nominally" Christian, which is the only word I object too. I don't advocate putting "wholly" in there either, or any other qualifier. Just call it a Christian holiday, which it is, and then say other people celebrate it too, which is fine. No qualifiers needed. Nominally can clearly imply, as it does in most modern usages, that something is that in name only, which is clearly misleading in this case so not only is it an unnecessary qualifier but a poor one as well.Roy Brumback (talk) 05:57, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps by 'definition', but not by definition! I had to go to the fifth entry here to find a reference that did NOT include a non-christian definition: http://www.onelook.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/bware/dofind.cgi?word=Christmas. But of course you can continue to ignore the fact that most dictionaries appear to include both christian and secular definitions. Of course, the situation may be different if you only have access to christian 'dictionaries'. AlexFekken (talk) 07:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I think I have suggested this before but it wasn't picked up. Most of the reliable sources that I have seen and mentioned give both christian and secular definitions of Christmas. I don't know what the Wikipedia policy is regarding this but what is wrong with having different definitions of the same word? A lot of the discussion seems to originate simply from the attempt to combine multiple inconsistent and verifiable definitions into one. Even in mathematics the same word can mean different things to different people, so why not here? AlexFekken (talk) 03:18, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Alex, where exactly are these sources? Can you list them so we can discuss and review their potential implications on the opening sentence/paragraph of the article?. — CIS ^(talk | stalk) 03:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with User:Roy Brumback. Christmas is a Christian holiday although others celebrate it as well. Easter is also a Christian holiday as well, despite the fact that some non-Christians may choose to celebrate Easter by painting chicken eggs and organizing egg hunts. With regards, Anupam^Talk 02:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Anupam, Nobody here will deny that Christmas is a Christian holiday, the thing is, it is also not a Christian holiday all at the same time. In order to remain neutral and objectively factual, Christmas must be presented as a holiday with multiple notable definitions. As for Easter, there is another artice on that so I won't go into any more detail than to say that Easter is very deeply rooted in pagan customs and is even named after a pagan goddess. Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 15:39, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

CIS, again? I just checked and the evidence itself hasn't gone away. This includes the dictionary entry referred to by the article itself (Merriam-Webster) and that I have mentioned several times before, as well as several other dictionary entries here http://www.onelook.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/bware/dofind.cgi?word=Christmas and that I referred to only a couple of paragraphs above. AlexFekken (talk) 07:36, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

To remove the inconsistency that is currently in the article perhaps the first sentence should be changed from "Christmas ... on December 25 to commemorate the birth of Jesus, ..." to "Christmas ... on December 25. Most Christians celebrate it to commemorate the birth of Jesus, ...".

I almost left out "Most" to minimise the change but then realised this wouldn't be correct. I think "Most Christians and certain non-Christians" would also be defend-able, perhaps even better, but I think that the current suggestion that everybody who celebrates Christmas does so "to commemorate the birth of Jesus" is too obviously incorrect to leave it there. AlexFekken (talk) 08:23, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

No mention of the origins of the 'traditional' christmas symbols

The holly and ivy were fertility symbols of pagan origin during Modranecht (Night of the Mother, followed by Day of the Child, or feast of lights). The same goes for Mistletoe. Holly and Ivy were also used in Greek Mythology, Holly being representative of the male and Ivy for the female. (see The dancer and Dionysus in Greek Mythology)

Also, the origin of exchanging gifts. As part of modranecht a fir tree would be uprooted from the nearest glen and decorated in red bows and statues as effigies of varying gods and goddesses of the pagan faith. Candles would be lit in the tree and a 5 pointed star placed on top. Gifts of fruit and other offerings would be made to the effigies in the tree.

As Modranecht was the night of the mother followed by the day of the child, it became pagan tradition to offer gifts to the children of the household as well as to the pagan gods and goddesses.

The origin of the word Christmas is a contradiction in itself. To put the 'holy name' of the Christian Messiah with the Pagan name for celebration (Mass) was originally deemed sacreligious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.7.229.160 (talk) 09:42, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Please provide source/citation for the above claims. Furthermore, the etymology of the English word "mass" refutes the argument in your last statement above (it's modern usage as reference to the Eucharist/Christian religious service developed from words used in the service itself and thus does not predate Christianity). See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mass Not sure which "pagan" language to which you refer above, but the Latin for celebration was celebrare with festum/festa being the Latin for festival/feast, from which the German word also derives. See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=-fest Prtwhitley (talk) 05:24, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

christmas day

This page probably isn't going to be fully protected today like many pages are in similar situations. This is because, unlike me, most people have better things to do and are taking a break from normal activity which sadly today means being on the internet hence the page is not likely to be vandalized. Daniel Christensen (talk) 07:23, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Ha I was right, almost nothing is happening today. Daniel Christensen (talk) 16:35, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

The Etymology section is lacking in two respects. First, the suffix "-mas" means an arrival. While the word "mass" as used to mean the Catholic liturgies is derived similarly, Christmas does not mean Christ's Mass. Rather, it means Christ's arrival. Second, the etymology of the term Xmas does not inform the etymology of the term Christmas, and should be given its own section or page. (With regard to the etymology of the term Xmas, the Greek chi is substituted for the 'Christ-' part, because in Greek, the word Χριστός begins with chi. But since the Latin word for Christ is Christus, it's unlikely that the Roman X had any influence on the term Xmas.) Atozxrod (talk) 14:15, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the section on chi, absent any objection. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 08:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Done. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 17:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Picture in infobox

Willrocks10, why are you insisting on changing the picture in the upper right hand corner? The only reason you've given is that you think it "looks better." I think the creche with Christmas trees in the background illustrates the topic. If you don't have a good reason for the change, please don't change it.

If there are no objections, I plan to change it back again. Ruckabumpkus (talk) 22:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Willrocks10, please stop making your substitution of the image in the infobox. That picture has been there quite a while, and your opinion that the one you keep substituting "looks better" is not sufficient reason for making such a change. (Besides, I think it's a tacky-looking tree). If you persist in making your substitution, I will assume you're committing vandalism. Ruckabumpkus (talk) 13:25, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that we should keep the nativity scene/trees picture and not the Christmas tree that Willrocks10 (and his sockpuppet?) are trying to insert. Willrocks, please join discussion here and reach consensus for change before re-inserting the image. — CIS ^(talk |

EXCUSE ME! How ruse of you! PBL1998 is not my sockpuppet!

WILLROCKS10 (talk) 18:00, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

stalk) 19:14, 7 January 2011 (UTC) I agree that the nativity scene is a better depiction of the holiday. It seems more holistic and I like the fact that Christian and pagan symbols are present in the picture. Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 21:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Fine keep the nativity picture. Even though the tree looks better because they are more bold.

WILLROCKS10 (talk) 12:15, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 75.203.4.188, 17 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} THE MAGI IN THE BOOK OF MATTHEW DID NOT VISIT AN INFANT IN A MANGER ,BUT HE WAS FOUND IN AN HOUSE AND COULD HAVE BEEN APPROX. 2 YEARS LATER.BECAUSE IT STATES THAT HEROD INSTRUCTED THE CHILDREN TO BE SLAIN 2 YEARS AND UNDER BECAUSE 2 YRS. HAD PASSED SINCE HE TALKED TO THE MAGI. MATTHEW IS THEREFORE MIS- REPRESENTED.

MATHEW-2:11 AND MATTHEW-2:16 75.203.4.188 (talk) 03:53, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. What you are asking to add is considered original research. If you find a reliable source that comes to the same conclusion as you have, feel free to post it here and remove the "tlf|" from the template to restore your request to the queue. Thank you, — Bility (talk) 20:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

The citation was already given and I don't believe additional sources are needed for this. English translations of Matthew clearly state that the Magi visited a house (there was no mention of a manger in Matthew) and Herod ordered all children up to age two to be slain and this age was chosen "according to the time which he (Herod) had exactly learned of the Wise-men" (from Matthew 2:16, American Standard Version) This WP article describes that the two gospel stories have different details, so I think we made that clear already. Also, in the "Commemorating Jesus' Birth" section, the second paragraph states, "According to popular tradition..." and then describes the popular understanding of the birth story. This section does not say, "according to the bible". I am certain that the average person (in the U.S. anyway) has no clue that popular tradition is a blend of two biblical birth stories. Nevertheless, this is the popular tradition, even if the popular traditions don't clearly match the biblical descriptions. I agree with the comments made by 75.203.4.188, but I'm not sure exactly where and how 75.203.4.188 would like the article to be edited. Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 13:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)