Talk:Ark of the Covenant

Vandalism

I'm pretty inexperienced with both wikipedia and the subject at hand, but the Valley of the Kings section under rumoured locations of the ark seems to be all kinds of screwed up - it claims "The Ark of the Covenant was unearthed during the excavation of the tomb of Tutankhamen". Malician (talk) 12:33, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Un, no it wasn't. Really, it wasn't. Gingermint (talk) 03:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Ark of the Covenent NOW Found

Al-Faarooq of the United Muslim Nations (UMN) claims to be in the posetion of the Ark of the Covenant. The Article on the UMN Blog gives a deep history on the subject. One can onlt ponder... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.202.5.106 (talk) 10:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Theist POV

From the first line there are many statements which assume a theist perspective, e.g. "The Ark was built at the command of God." Shouldn't that be "is said to have been built." Etc. --Timtak (talk) 02:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree 100%, but there's too much of that stuff for a simple edit, I'm adding a cleanup tag to the article and hope that an impartial and more experienced editor will tackle it. - 68.146.211.84 (talk) 17:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe the first sentence doesn't go far enough in stating that the Ark doesn't necessarily exist now or ever.Workster (talk) 23:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

"... doesn't go far enough in stating that the Ark doesn't necessarily exist now or ever." Why is that important and why insist on something that could never be proven. That's a little nutty. Gingermint (talk) 03:11, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Unveiling

The Orthodox Church of Ethiopia is apparently meeting with Pope Bennedict XVI to announce the unveiling of the Ark shortly. Source is here http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=102119. Should this be added to the article? Da Killa Wabbit (talk) 19:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Another source, same topic... http://www.ethiopianreview.com/content/10178 Da Killa Wabbit (talk) 19:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

It's been almost a year, so where is the ark? Wickland (talk) 04:07, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

This was a false rumor started by World Net Daily. The Patriarch later asserted that he originally stated that the ark was to be moved temporarily but not that it would be revealed. Frankly, World Net Daily is a tabloid publication, not a reliable news source. Today's headlines are "Forget New Black Panthers, feds think whites intimidate" and "Obama's white working-class problem". This article comes from a newspaper that was clearly duped, as many were, by WND's false report: "On 25 June 2009, the patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Ethiopia, Abuna Paulos, said he would announce to the world the next day the unveiling of the Ark of the Covenant, which he said had been kept safe and secure in a church in Axum, Ethiopia.[14]" Even Fox News and CNN reported on it and later revealed that it was not as had been originally reported. --Scardinoz (talk) 14:40, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Why is the Islamic history of the Ark of the Covenant not Included?

Google search (Islam: Tabut al Sakina & Imam Mahdi Prophecy)

Al-Faarooq's article gives you an indepth history of the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.202.5.104 (talk) 09:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Ark disappearance implicit by Josiah

The article doesn't mention Chronicles II 35:3 where King Josiah specifically tells the Levites to return the Ark to its house. The ark is not mentioned further, telling me the Levites did not return it (but the author of Chronicles could not bear to say so explicitly). Obviously this strongly tends to confirm "during the reign of Manasseh" as the time of disappearance, a theory which has other strong support, especially the existence of the Elephantine Temple itself.

Why is Josiah's comment widely ignored by scholars?

By the way, the article shows "in advance of the Babylonians" as a theory which "ends up with the Ark in Ethiopia". I don't know about that, but the Ethiopian destination is associated with the Menelik and Manasseh variations.

Jamesdowallen (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I seem to remember reading at some point in my life articles discussing the ark's construction as outlined in texts should have created an electric charge or something of that sort. Anyone familiar with this (and know of some sources) that thinks it merits inclusion or did I just have some strange dream once.... Cmiych (talk) 03:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

This article is routinely censored by soemone who does not want new evidence posted concerning an ancient Hebrew and Israelite presence in Ethiopia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ntsukunyane Mphanya (talk • contribs) 11:30, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

This article was updated by N.Mphanya at Saturday, 12 December 2009 at 23:55:54 after the first posting was removed although the material was correctly referenced. There is obviously a self-serving Biblical maximalist censor at work here who wishes to obliterate all evidence concerning a pre- 586 B.C.E. Hebrew and Israelite presence in Ethiopia and Arabia. This sort of behaviour undermines Wikiepdia's credibility and explains why the better univerities refuse to accept assignments that use Wikiepdia refrneces. When this entry is removed (probably in the next hour or so) the matter will be taken to the Wikipedia arbitrator.

If a University student cites Wikipedia in an essay, then they aren't very good at writing essays. SGGH ^ping! 10:59, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge Ark of the Covenant in popular culture into Ark of the Covenant. -- StAnselm (talk) 04:05, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

---

Use this section to discuss the propsed merger of Ark of the Covenant in popular culture into Ark of the Covenant. I disagree. I think Ark of the Covenant or Arc of the Covenant in popular culture should be linked. There is tremendous spiritual significance to the Arc of the Covenant and the Tablets of Stone, where in popular culture, we're talking about Indiana Jones, an adventurist with a thrilling story. This should be separated.----

I agree. Although Ark of the Covenant is a large article, Ark of the Covenant in popular culture is small enough, and putting all facets of one subject together seems like a general good idea to me. Debresser (talk) 13:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that the popular culture article could be expanded and become large enough to live on its own? There must be a huge number of mentions of the Ark in popular culture. SGGH ^ping! 19:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd say that is possible. If that were to happen, we'd have to split the articles (back again). Debresser (talk) 21:24, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

There would be less stubs if stubs were added to major articles of the same subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myeliteromance (talk • contribs) 01:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

• Merge. I don't see Ark of the Covenant in popular culture having enough notable items to make it worth maintaining as a separate article...though I could be wrong of course. Doniago (talk) 20:59, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
• MERGE the Ark of the Covenant in popular culture article into this Ark of the Covenant. --XKV8R (talk) 05:36, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
• DELETE the other article. I think the only reason the damn thing was created in the first place was because the "Pop culture" section kept getting deleted as blatant trivia. Looks like whoever wanted the information on Wikipedia created a separate article just to keep it alive. The next best solution is to merge the two articles and then delete all the trivia (i.e. all the information in the article) once they're merged. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 03:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
• Merge the other article and into this one. John Hyams (talk) 17:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
• MERGE the Ark of the Covenant in popular culture article into this Ark of the Covenant. One expects to find current (pop) cultural references re. the ark in the MAIN article... --Chachap (talk) 04:36, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge completed --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 04:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Construction, physical dimensions and attributes

I remember that the article had a section about the construction, physical dimensions and attributes of the Ark. I guess it was edited away by either balant or concealed vandalism. That section was important, and I will either try to find that lost section in the previous versions, or recreate that section. John Hyams (talk) 03:24, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I have created the section. Maybe more info is needed:

• the gold/silver taken from the people for it
• who were the craftmen (Aaron? Dan tribe?)
• anything else that is missing. I once saw a documentary explaining that the ark had (according to the Bible) some electrifying attributes, i.e.- anyone who touched it got fired (literally). The exact chapter/verse pointer for this would be great.

Once the section looks OK, the expert request can be removed. John Hyams (talk) 09:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The sun dish that sat between the wings is missing from the top of the Ark in the descriptions and pictures. There are also no references to the Ark of Amun on which it was based. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.100.127.99 (talk) 17:35, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The Samaritan community

Members within the Samaritanism community believe the ark of the covenant is hidden in one of the caves around Gerizim. Many believe that the Thaheb (the great prophet) will reveal the location of items of tabernacle. [1] (Anaccuratesource (talk) 18:34, 29 June 2010 (UTC)).

Christian theologians believe it was destroyed with the temple by Nebuchadnezzer and this is why Cyrus was unable to return it with the other items of furniture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.0.133.119 (talk) 18:44, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The Ethiopian claims

I am very dubious about the verifiability of this statement from a recent draft of this article:

However, recent study suggests that reference is a later interpolation: many important manuscripts later than the thirteenth century make no reference to it, and it only became a core element of Ethiopian beliefs in the seventeenth century.

First, there is ample evidence to show that Ethiopians believed they had the true Ark in their possession at least as early as the 12th century. This possession was important enough to them that before Imam Ahmad Gragn entered Axum & sacked it, Emperor Lebna Dengel removed the object they believe is the Ark for safe keeping. Second, the existence of any manuscripts of the Kebra Nagast as early as the 13th century would be remarkable; few original texts written in Ethiopia before 1550 now exist, due to warfare & the conditions these manuscripts are kept in. And lastly, this passage seems to be a tendentious attempt to discredit sincere Ethiopian beliefs; until this "recent study" is presented for verification, it should be removed. -- llywrch (talk) 16:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

How can the ethiopians have the true Ark when it never left heaven. Moses was shown the Ark and made a copy to the pattern he was given. Cyrus could not return it because it had been destroyed by Nebucanezzar along with the temple. The true Ark only comes to earth in "Revelations" at the day of judgement when heaven comes down to earth. That's the Christian view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.78.106 (talk) 18:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No, it's your view of the Christian view. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

NIV exodus 25 v9 "Make this tabernacle and all it's furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.78.106 (talk) 09:42, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

In answer to the IP's question, the story is that the original Ark was replaced by a fake during Menelik's visit to Solomon's court, & Menelik returned to Ethiopia with the original while the fake remained behind to be destroyed centuries later when Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem. Now whether this story is what really happened, I leave that to people more learned than me. I do know it is a fact that traditionally educated Ethiopians have believed this story is the truth for at least a thousand years, & not a few still believe it today. But ranting here that "this can't be true" isn't going to convince anyone to alter the text of the article one bit. -- llywrch (talk) 04:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

New Ark

According to Christians following Catholic tradition and belief, the Blessed Virgin Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant, since Christ is described as the New Covenant. The belief also comes from the Book of Revelation where St. John of Patmos describes the Ark as a beautiful woman. Should this be mentioned in the article? --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 03:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Good point! Gingermint (talk) 03:21, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Name of Revelation

Because every English translation of the Bible I have ever seen calls the book of Revelation just that, I changed two references which named the book "Apocalypse" to "Revelation" in the section called References to the Ark in Scripture: In the Bible. To call the book Apocalypse would be confusing to most English speakers/readers. Yes, I know that the first word of the book in the Greek New Testament is Ἀποκάλυψις, but this is an English wiki, not a Greek wiki. It's Revelation. Silmalel File:User Silmalel SigPic3.PNG 17:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Book of Numbers - verse numbering

I've added an alternative numbering for the verses in the Book of Numbers refering to the inclusion of Aaron's Rod. It seems that the chapter breaks are very different between versions - I am using the Revised English Bible. I have no idea what the reason for this might be. Scottwh (talk) 22:35, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

"See also" section

Why is the Baghdad battery in the “see also” section? What’s the connection to the ark? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Idonthavetimeforthiscarp (talk • contribs) 14:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Added almost 8 years ago when someone wrote " Archaeological discoveries of the last century (which include the Baghdad battery among others), indicate a working knowledge of energy devices by ancient middle eastern cultures, and therefore it may not have been beyond Moses' specialized training in the house of Pharoah" - just crazy fringe stuff, and I've removed it, well spotted. Dougweller (talk) 14:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Implication of Revelation passage

"Revelation 11:19 says the prophet saw God's temple in heaven opened, "and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple.""

The idea of this passage is not that the Ark of the Covenant that Moses built is somehow now in heaven but it refers to the true Ark of the Covenant of which the Mosaic Ark was a copy.

Please note the following:

Ex 25:7-9

8 And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings, just so you shall make it.

Ex 25:10-16

"And they shall make an ark of acacia wood; two and a half cubits shall be its length, a cubit and a half its width, and a cubit and a half its height. 11 And you shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and out you shall overlay it, and shall make on it a molding of gold all around. 12 You shall cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in its four corners; two rings shall be on one side, and two rings on the other side. 13 And you shall make poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold. 14 You shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, that the ark may be carried by them. 15 The poles shall be in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it. 16 And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.

NKJV

Ex 25:40

40 And see to it that you make them according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.

NKJV

Ex 26:30

30 And you shall raise up the tabernacle according to its pattern which you were shown on the mountain.

NKJV

And

Heb 8:3-5

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

NKJV

The statement as written implies the Ark of Moses is in heaven. That is not correct.

KaseetaKen (talk) 21:01, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources supporting this interpretation? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 04:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I should like to point out simply that scripture states that Moses was shown on the mountain the pattern of the tabernacle to be made by the Israelites. Nowhere does scripture explicitly say that he was shown the pattern of God's temple in heaven. He was instructed to make copies of heavenly things shown to him (see texts cited above). To say they are the same as the temple of God in heaven is an interpretation that may be correct or may not be correct: either statement is an interpretation. Reliable sources cited would be required to support either of them or both of them.

• Revelation Chapter 4 verse 2 says: "a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne." RSV
• Revelation Chapter 4 verses 5 and 6 says: "before the throne burn seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God; and before the throne there is as it were a sea of glass, like crystal." RSV
• Revelation Chapter 5 verse 1 says: "in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back". RSV

It is easy to interpret these as the Ark with the Sefer Torah within it, and the seven lamps on the Lampstand/Candlestick before the Veil, and outside, the bronze/brass sea standing before the altar of burnt offerings—However:

The Tanakh/Old Testament states that the Ark of the Covenant (among other attributes) is not the throne but the "footstool" of the LORD:

• 1 Chronicles Chapter 28 verse 2, David says: "I had it in my heart to build a house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God". RSV (parallel construction)
• Psalm 99:5 says: "Extol the LORD our God; worship at his footstool! Holy is he!" RSV
• Psalm 132:7 says: "Let us go to his dwelling place; let us worship at his footstool". RSV
• Isaiah 66:1 says: "Thus says the LORD: Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool". RSV (It is evident that the earth does not look like the description of the Ark, and the Ark does not look like a copy of the earth.)

Furthermore, the Book of Revelation, while it states that the LORD is seated on the throne in heaven, and that the Lamb is in the midst of the throne (7:17), it does not say that the Ark of God's covenant is the throne, and it does not say that the LORD God is seated on the Ark of the covenant. It says:

• Revelation 4:2 "lo, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne!" RSV
• Revelation 4:9 "the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever". RSV
• Revelation 11:16 "the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God". RSV
• Revelation 11:19 "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple." RSV
• Revelation 15:5 "After this I looked, and the temple of the tent of witness in heaven was opened". RSV (It clearly does not say that the temple is the tent of witness, but indicates rather that the temple in heaven contains, is the location of, the tent of witness.)

The Torah/Pentateuch does not say that God's eternal temple in heaven has an eternal Ark of God's covenant, only that Moses was shown on the mountain the (heavenly) pattern of the things he was to make: "Let them make me a sanctuary". (I have not found any scriptual text that says that God's own eternal heaven is a tabernacle.) The Talmud (2nd-6th century) relates that the pattern he was shown was of fire (light?) and that he then asked how he was to make all these things of fire. The New Testament shows the Scroll in the hand of him who sits on the throne; it does not show the Scroll as being in the Ark of the covenant.

An interpretation can be made that an eternal Ark of God's covenant has been present in heaven from the beginning. A reliable source for this interpretation is needed. An interpretation can also be made that, at the time of Moses, an Ark for the copy of God's covenant was commanded solely as a sacred repository for the safe keeping of the written word of God as part of the (temporary) pattern of the worship of the people of God as a testimony to them. A reliable source for this interpretation is needed.

It is unequivocally stated in the article that a literal reading of Revelation necessarily locates the physical ark of the covenant in God's temple in heaven. Additional information on the meaning of literal reading is provided by a link to the article "Biblical literalism".

In any case, the Tanakh does state that the Ark is a temporary sign:

• Jeremiah 3:16-17 says: "when you have multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, says the LORD, they shall no more say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' It shall not come to mind, or be remembered, or missed; it shall not be made again. At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the LORD". RSV
• Jeremiah 31:31 says: "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant I made with their fathers". RSV

A case is presented above by KaseetaKen that the Ark in heaven refers to the "true Ark of the covenant" of which the Ark made by Moses was a copy. From all of this here, it also equally appears that the Ark of the covenant in heaven is the same Mosaic Ark of the testimony that God himself commanded to be made from the pattern shown to Moses on Mount Sinai, in the Book of Exodus. Both views can be represented. Wikipedia presents all points of view supported by verifiable reliable secondary and third-party sources of documentation. Only very minor interpretations are not usually included. The talk page is a useful forum for discussions about improvements to the article, a lesser forum for opinions about the correctness or inaccuracy of specific content apart from evaluating citations of source(s) of specific content. --Michael Paul Heart (talk) 08:17, 16 April 2011 (UTC)