Talk:Shakespeare authorship question

Great job!

Thanks to all who pitched in and achieved an almost-impossible task on such a controversial topic and formerly-troubled article. All of the changes that were made after FA nomination convinced me I dont' really have all that good an eye for first-rate quality when it comes to encyclopedia articles. I've nominated it at the featured article request page for April 23, and some of you who know more about this than I do might want to take a look at it.

I also hope that the improvements don't cease just because the page was promoted. I know plenty of work remains for the article to be as comprehensive and neutral as possible, and I hope some of you feel the same way. I do know that i plan to take a break for month or so from editing so I can catch up with a couple of projects I've neglected over the past year. (And maybe I can also stop using Brit spelling for a while and stop getting funny looks from people at work!) Once again, I really appreciate all the time and effort that went into this project. I think we can all be proud of our accomplishment. Cheers mates! Tom Reedy (talk) 23:54, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Wow. Wrad (talk) 02:43, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations! While my reservations remain, the unstinting labours of a dedicated crew are certainly evident in the present form of the article. Fotoguzzi (talk) 08:02, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Well done to all involved. The correct decision was reached and the article was improved significantly in the process. Poujeaux (talk) 13:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Well done to those who took the brownfield site left after the carpet-bombing and constructed such an architectural wonder. I haven't yet looked at the body of the article but the lede is very much improved from last time I looked in.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:14, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Terrific and informative article. I teach Shakespeare and have read extensively on this question, but I still learned quite a bit from this. Nice work everybody! --Khazar (talk) 01:29, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

History

Hi. I'm doing some research on the history of the Oxfordian Theory and the Shakespeare Authorship Controversy and came here for help. I noticed some discrepancies between the main history article and this one, so I am trying to make them match up better. I also noticed that the history section of the Oxfordian Theory article is woefully inadequate. I'll try and fill that out a bit as well. - Anton321 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton321 (talk • contribs) 09:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Welcome. This article has been examined minutely by dozens of editors and critics, and is therefore on a reasonably firm footing. It states what our best sources say. The Oxfordian theory article is badly sourced, poorly edited, and unreliable, so it would be wise not to edit towards this article from the other, until the latter has been thoroughly reedited to conform to wiki standards. One thing we do not do here is write judgements that are not firmly anchored in the best academic sources. That is why I was compelled to revert your attempt to rewrite a section of the lead. There is no evidence so far from the Elizabethan period that Shakespeare was not universally regarded as the author of most of the works attributed to him. Thus when you wrote:-

While authorship skeptics believe that doubts concerning the traditional attribution first arose in the late 1500's, it is theorized by several mainstream scholars that Shakespeare's authorship was first questioned in the middle of the 19th century,

It is what is called WP:OR, unless you have an WP:RS academic work that says '(all authorship skeptics' believe doubts arose in the 1590s'. Secondly, it is doubly wrong to write 'it is theorized by several mainstream scholars that'. It is neither a theory, nor is the fact maintained by 'several mainstream scholars'. All modern mainstream scholars on the SAQ issue who have examined the evidence concur that doubts first arose in the mid 19th century.'Nishidani (talk) 11:45, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I have had to revert your recent changes to the article. This article is very well sourced and has been very carefully checked, particularly in recent months during the FA process. If there is a discrepancy between this article and something else, the problem is probably in the other work. Your text included items like "Authorship researchers believe...", yet there was no reliable source to verify that statement. Also, the term "authorship researcher" is not part of the literature used in scholarly sources, and is not appropriate. On a minor matter, there should be no apostrophe in "1500's". Re the Minerva Britanna image and text: why move them? While there is some advantage in having an image near related text, the image is not required as an aid to understanding, and it serves the purpose of breaking up large slabs of text to make the page more interesting. I think the original position of the image was fine, and the moved text seems out of place. Text like "It is theorized by several mainstream scholars..." is not appropriate in any article: Wikipedia regards mainstream scholars as reliable sources, and "theorized" appears as an editorial comment to suggest that the mainstream scholars might be totally wrong (using the misguided but popular usage that theorizing is something one does in half an hour, as in "evolution is just a theory"; by the way, it should "theorised" in this article per WP:ENGVAR). Please see WP:FRINGE and gain consensus on the talk page before making large changes to a featured article. Johnuniq (talk) 11:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Just a suggestion. Perhaps the page should be locked for a day or two. If it is to be featured tomorrow, it is not improbable that, given the past, attempts will be made to destabilize it on the day. It should certainly not, over this short period, be subject to erratic editing by newcomers wholly unfamiliar with wikipedia practices and policies, and indifferent to the patient advice given to them on the talk page. Nishidani (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Protection of the TFA absent heavy vandalism or BLP concerns is controversial - see WP:NOPRO. I've move-protected it, but am hesitant to do more at this point. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I am watching the page - if the unhelpful edits go up I will semi-protect. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 15:15, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Pylius/Pylian

Uh, Moonraker. You shouldn't make rush calls on a technical issue.

• In judgment a Pylius (Nestor), in genius a Socrates, in art a Maro (Virgil)–

The earth covers him, the people mourn for him, Olympus holds him.

(Translation courtesy of the Folger Shakespeare Library's version of the Latin in its Old Reading Room).

I could give a lot of technical reasons why 'Pylian' is wrong, though you can get sources for it. You can muster, however, sources for 'a Pylius' and, the difference is, those sources which write 'A Pylius' reflect an understanding of Latin usage, and the correct way to translate it into English without making a stylistic mess of the line. Still, we do nothing here without broad agreement, so I've reserve proof, if proof be needed, till other editors chip in.Nishidani (talk) 21:59, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I know next to nothing about Latin grammar, but I'm for whatever is supported by reliable sources. If the sources are equal, then I'm for whatever the academic consensus supports. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I would go with reliable sources, but my guess is there may be RS for each translation. I checked and it was "Pylian" when the article made FA. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 22:36, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Check Katherine Duncan-Jones, Shakespeare: An ungentle life, (2001) 2nd ed.2010 p.314 note. Pylius atOvid, Metamorphoses Bk.8 line 365 = Nestor (Forsitan et Pylius citra Troiana perisset /Tempora), as it does at Juvenal, Satires Bk.10, 246 (Rex Pylius), the two texts which the Elizabethan who wrote that was undoubtedly familiar with (well perhaps not Juvenal's 10th, it rarely got printed, being so, well, 'foul').

Pylius in short was a proper noun in Latin meaning 'Nestor'. In the versions that give 'a Pylian' the Latinate proper noun becomes an English common noun, one of the class of people who are from Pylos, because folks failed to understand that Pylium is an example of antonomasia, and took it adjectivally.

Unless you translate it as a proper noun, you get a stylistic stutter, since the neat Latinate sequence of 3 proper nouns, identified with three specific individuals (Pylius for Nestor as 'Maro' for the more common 'Virgil') become a mix of a toponymic adjective(ethnikon in Greek) referring to anyone from Pylos, together with two proper nouns referring to specific individuals. The 'a' in 'a Pylian' is indefinite, whereas the 'a' in 'a Socrates' and 'a Maro' is not so.

The objection might be that I am engaging in WP:OR. No, I am just providing the reasons (not given) for why scholars like Duncan-Jones and others translate it as 'a Pylius'. Perhaps we'll have to stack up a huge amount of RS on this point to see which gets the guernsey numbers wise. Nishidani (talk) 22:45, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

This is all rational. The consensus for the meaning of the word is surely that it refers to Nestor in the sense of "of Pylos". To Juvenal he was Pylius rex, which is either "King Pylius" or "the king of Pylos". If Pylius is a name it is used in much the same way that Elizabeth I used "Parma" and "Spain" in "I think foul scorn that Parma or Spain or any Prince of Europe should dare to invade the borders of my realm". There is no doubt Pylius means "of Pylos". My own Second Latin Book by Frank Justus Miller (1902) has at p. 83 "Pylius, -a, -um, adj., of Pylos, Pylian; as subst., the Pylian Nestor, a ruler who took part with the Greeks in the Trojan war." As you say, Nishidani, it's a matter for reliable sources. Certainly "a Pylius" is possible. If it ends up as that, we can always add a footnote to explain it, but Pylian avoids that, especially if linked as Pylian. Moonraker2 (talk) 01:06, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Miller's old grammar clarifies exactly the point I made ('as subst., the Pylian Nestor). That means when Pylius is used as a substantive, it refers to a specific person, esp. to Nestor, i.e., it is a proper name. In Juvenal it is stricto sensu adjectival, but as one can see from a parallel like rex Priamus(Cicero, De divinatione, Bk 1.21,42), the rex+ proper noun construction flows over to make Juvenal's usage janus-faced, 'the Pylian king' is also heard as 'king Pylius' to a Latin ear. The Elizabethans were drenched in Ovid, and Ovid is behind this absolute use of Pylius as a proper noun, figuring by antonomasia, Nestor, (which for prosodic reasons the rather clumsy Latinist here -he makes the Ist syllable of Socraten scan short- couldn't use).

• Forsitan et Pylius citra Troiana perisset /Tempora), Ovid, Metamorphoses Bk.8 line 365-6 (See Franz Bömer (ed.)P.Ovidius Naso. Metamorphosen, Buch VIII-IX, Carl Winter. Universitätsverlag. Heidelberg, 1977 p.128)
• Pylio referente, idem Bk.12.537('as Nestor told the tale')
• tristis ad haec Pylius, idem Bk.12.542 ('and stern Nestor replied')
• illius ad tactum Pylius iuvenescere possit Ovid, Amores, Bk.3,7,41 ((old) Nestor (himself) could feel the bud of youth bloom in him at her touch)

In these four cases, familiar to Elizabethans, Pylius is an alternative proper noun for Nestor.

If we found in the fields of Warwickshire a stone commemorating Anne Whateley, and read an inscription: 'Pulchritudine Hyccaraeam, genio Hypatiam, arte Sapphonem', we would only confuse people were we to translate, 'In beauty an Hyccarean, in genius an Hypatia, in literary technique a Sappho.' No one else of note came from Hyccara, just as no one other than Nestor is associated with Pylos. One would write 'In beauty a Lais, . .' using a proper name consonant with the proper names in the rest of the verse, and one any modern reader fond of Pierre Louÿs would recognise.Nishidani (talk) 14:50, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Since it is presented as a direct quotation, why not just specify the source at the end of that sentence (as WP:MOSQUOTE suggests anyway) and follow the specified source? The reference or a footnote could then explain that some translate it one way and others another. Note that I have cleverly avoided saying which version to follow - my Latin was to rudimentary and too long ago. Amo amas amat... is about all I recall. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:54, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Right, for Wikipedia editors to translate from Latin themselves runs straight into WP:OR: this neeeds to be quoted directly from a source and cited accordingly. Since this article has little relation to any Latin topic or the specific interpretation of “Pylium”, if the sources should translate it differently (which I've yet to notice myself, but…) we can pick one on that source's authority. I can't recall whether Shapiro gives it, but would expect so, so check his translation against, say, Schoenbaum and Chambers (or Loomis), and if there is no discrepancy there then we have a solution. --Xover (talk) 08:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Of course it would be WP:OR, as I said. On a discussion page, it is not WP:OR to note the problem and explain it.

• 'The earth covers, the people mourn, Olympus holds (a man who was) a Pylius (=Nestor) in judgement, a Socrates in wisdom, a Virgil in literary skill.' Katherine Duncan-Jones, Shakespeare: an ungentle life, (2001) Methuen 2nd ed.2010 p.314
• 'Nestor for wisdom, Socrates for genius, Virgil for poetry.' Peter Levi, The life and Times of William Shakespeare, Macmillan, 1988 p.343
• 'The earth covers one who is a Nestor in Judgement; the people mourn for a Socrates in Genius; Olympus has a Virgil in art.' Park Honan, Shakespeare: A Life, Oxford University Press (1998) 1999 p.403
• The Folger Shakespeare Library has the correct rendering on line here, as well

In each instance, 'Pylius' is translated as a proper name, 'Nestor', as befits the Ovidian allusion, and not as 'a Pylian'. There are other problems of course, ars is literary technique or artistic performance, and Duncan Jones captures this in her note, as she does the grammatical construction our version readjusts by repeating 'him'.Nishidani (talk) 14:50, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is Oxford not mentioned as leading candidate?

I know fairly little about this whole issue, but I gather that Oxford is considered the leading candidate. IMO this is fairly important info, which should be in the intro. In fact, it appears nowhere at all other than buried at the very end of the Marlowe section:

His candidacy was revived by Calvin Hoffman in 1955 and is now the nearest rival to Oxford's.[223]

Why not make the end of paragraph 2 in the intro read:

... and more than 70 authorship candidates have been proposed,[8] including Francis Bacon, the 6th Earl of Derby, Christopher Marlowe, and the 17th Earl of Oxford.[9] Oxford is currently the leading candidate, followed by Marlowe.

Apologies if this has been discussed previously somewhere in the (voluminous) archives. Benwing (talk) 03:54, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Please read the Oxford section. The last sentence in the second graf reads: "After Looney's Shakespeare Identified was published in 1920, Oxford rapidly overtook Bacon to become the most popular alternative candidate, and remains so to this day." Tom Reedy (talk) 03:58, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know the history around that issue, but an important factor is that the lead is already long, and great efforts have been made to squeeze out every excess word. Your suggestion would be correct if the article were focused on the most popular alternative authorship candidates, but I'm not convinced that knowing which candidate currently is the leader is very significant in terms of understanding the authorship question, and the arguments advanced. I think that what would be seen as a "promotion" of a candidate should have a strong justification to avoid the temptation for someone favoring another candidate to use the lead to point out a distinguishing feature of their nomination. Johnuniq (talk) 04:20, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I did miss that statement. But I still don't see why it shouldn't be stated more obviously. The section on Bacon, for example, says at the beginning that Bacon was the leading candidate from the 19th century.

BTW, Johnuniq, you may be assuming that I'm trying to promote Oxford, which I'm not at all. Honestly the whole issue reads to me much like 9/11 conspiracy theories and such, and I'm sorry that it was necessary to use up so much collective Wikipedia time on it. But if I wanted to find out e.g. about 9/11 conspiracy theories, the first thing I'd want to know is which theories are most prominent, and indeed in the 9/11 conspiracy theories article you'll see this is stated right in the first paragraph. Similarly, given that the Shakespeare authorship question is asking "Who wrote Shakespeare's plays?", then inevitably one of the very first things that nearly everybody will want to know is, "If not Shakespeare, then who?". Just like for 9/11 conspiracy theories, identifying the most prominent Shakespeare conspiracy theories is hardly "promoting" one theory over another. In fact, since the consensus, as found in the article itself, is that the most prominent theories are (1) Oxford, (2) Marlowe, (3) Bacon and/or Derby, (4) everyone else, in that order, then IMO not stating this in the lede makes the article quality worse and needlessly confuses the issue. Benwing (talk) 06:34, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I tried but possibly did not succeed in phrasing my comment to say that there will be people who regard mentioning Oxford's current popularity as unduly disadvantaging their candidate (and I'm definitely not assuming any attempt at a promotion in this discussion). I was thinking that if the lead does not do more than list the four prime candidates, we might avoid future inevitable attempts to add a few more words about the other candidates (someone might argue that X being more popular now is not as important as the fact that Y was the first and most logical candidate, or some variation of that). I see what you mean about 9/11, although in that case the different "explanations" for 9/11 are so wonderfully varied that they need to be mentioned to make any sense. By contrast, this article explores the easily understood suggestion that someone other than Shakespeare wrote the works. I am not particularly worried about this point (and await other comments)—however, per my comment in the section immediately below this, I rather liked it when both the lead and the image caption listed the candidates in alphabetical order. Johnuniq (talk) 08:00, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

The thing is, there is no concrete evidence whatsoever that any of the proposed candidates (other than Shakespeare himself) wrote the plays, and the fact that Oxford is currently the leading contender merely means that, somehow or other, a lot of vocal and often disruptive people have coalesced around the, as they see it, best of the conspiracy theories. That doesn't mean that it should be given any special status in the article's lede, IMO. --GuillaumeTell 17:17, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

"several Supreme Court justices"

Which Supreme Court? I don't have access to the source so I can't check myself. Thanks! 68.35.40.154 (talk) 06:49, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

It's hard to know when to stop tweaking things, and how to provide useful links while not overlinking. Searching for "Supreme Court" in the article shows first the instance you mention (in the Overview), and a second instance where it is spelled out as Supreme Court of the United States.

By the way, your edit changed the caption of the image in the lead to go clockwise from top left. I'll leave that for now and see what others think, but we discussed how to handle the names several weeks ago. I'm an orderly kind of person and proposed the way it was because that gave alphabetical order (Bacon, Derby, Marlowe, and Oxford), which matches the presentation of the names in the lead and avoids arguments about the order in which the candidates should be presented. For consistency, whatever order is chosen should be the same in the lead and the caption (although I think a couple of others could not see the force of my logic there). Johnuniq (talk) 07:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed mention of the "several Supreme Court justices" as it is not supported by the cited source (Times article of 21 April 2010), and without giving their actual names it is too vague a statement. BabelStone (talk) 08:22, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

IIRC, the reason the candidates were listed from top right is that usually when items are listed clockwise, the list begins at the 12 o'clock position. Tom Reedy (talk) 14:05, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not really concerned about the order that they're show in the picture; alphabetical is a good way to go to avoid giving preference. I just thought it was strange to start in quadrant I—I would definitely have expected to start in quadrant II and listed clockwise from there, since things generally go from left to right when listing things shown in pictures. As for the Supreme Court, it's just that as an American I of course hear "Supreme Court" and think of the SCOTUS. But there's several SCs in the world, and since this article has adopted UK style (because Shakespeare was British) it's hard to know which SC was meant. 68.35.40.154 (talk) 17:22, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Use of traditionally ascribed in the first line

I feel the thrust of the whole article to be prejudiced by this "traditionally ascribed" in the first line. It would be true to say, for instance, that Shakespeare is traditionally said to have been born on April 23 because he was baptised close to this, England's national day. However it is not correct to say that his works are ascribed by tradition. I will not change it myself but think those who are open-minded and more involved in this article should consider it.DMC (talk) 09:35, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. I think I see what you mean. The phrase is used as a way to refer to his works without enumerating them or confusing the reader by using “Shakespeare” to mean three different things within the span of a single sentence. Can you perhaps suggest an alternative way to phrase that sentence? --Xover (talk) 09:48, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I understand his distinction, but IMO it's a distinction without a difference. "Historically" in place of "traditionally" would work, but then you'd have to change all such uses of a useful (and IMO not confusing) term. Tom Reedy (talk) 14:07, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure "historically" is much better than "traditionally", because history and tradition don't address the question of "ascribing" anything to WS. So far as they have anything to say, they simply treat him as the undoubted author. Would "generally ascribed" be any better? Moonraker2 (talk) 02:03, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

This issue is probably now resolved because Tom removed "traditionally", which leaves "wrote the works attributed to him". I understood the sense in which "traditionally" was used, and there was no prejudice involved at all. However, if it can be read as introducing a prejudice, it should be fixed, and simply omitting the word seems a good result. Johnuniq (talk) 02:33, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is this article in such a biased tone?

This article affirms at every turn the Stratford argument and barely gives the anti-Stratfordians a second look. It uses vague, subjective statements to describe the Stratfordians such as "a lack of attendance records for Stratford's grammar school is taken as suggesting..." and "Commoners are said [by the anti-Stratfordians] to be depicted..." whereas active, affirmative statements describe the Stratfordians, such as "All these converge to confirm William Shakespeare's authorship" and "The historical record is unequivocal in assigning the authorship of the Shakespeare canon to William Shakespeare." Both of the last two statements are debatable. The author of the article stresses that Stratfordians have relied on hard documentary evidence, neglecting to mention that there is a staggering lack of the same. The Stratford argument relies on broad inferences from the extremely thin amount of documentation available. This article in now way suggests that there is a possibility that this could be the case, and I think it should be altered to be a more balanced article with better resources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.242.130 (talk) 11:42, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

It's 'biased' as you term it because, just like the "birther" argument, belief in Bigfoot/Yeti/Faouke Monster, the Hitler-is-still-alive fantasy, 'we didn't go to the moon-it's all a fake' conspiracy theory, aliens crashed at Roswell .... it's a bunch of crapola. For whatever reason, those whose lives cannot find satisfaction wander into the belief in things like this and almost adopt it as a religion. 98.67.181.124 (talk) 17:02, 23 April 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

There is a huge amount of evidence in fact. All is consistent with WS's authorship. However, the reason that the mainstream view is presented as the dominant one is simple. It's because it is...the dominant one. Otherwise it wouldn't be the mainstream view. Paul B (talk) 11:51, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that this is a biased article. It's NOT a "fringe belief," that's simply untrue; it's a widely-accepted alternate theory. The statement above that "there is a huge amount of evidence in fact" is in my opinion actually *proof* of that perspective. There is ALSO much evidence and concrete reasons to believe that Shakespeare was NOT the actual author. Why ignore it? By the way, for those who don't know - Shakespeare or whoever's writings were EXTREMELY scandalous for those times. He's very lucky they didn't jail him; and it's a "nine-day's wonder" that they didn't. Of COURSE the true writer was kept hidden! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.127.212.149 (talk) 17:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

A few ... um ... "eccentrics" believing in this guff does not make it "widely-accepted" by any stretch of the imagination. If you talk like this around educated people, you'll most likely be laughed at. HammerFilmFan (talk) 18:24, 23 April 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

No they weren't. Marlowe, Jonson and Nashe were all far more scandalous. And if they had been scandalous why on earth would they be palmed off on a lowly lad from Stratford rather than simply published under a wholly fictional identity like Martin Marprelate? This whole argument is self-refuting. If an aristocrat was worried about the consequences, how on earth would middle-class Bill get away with it? And wouldn't he blab as soon as he saw the rack, thus defeating the whole object? Paul B (talk) 18:00, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the allegations of bias, a view supported rather than undermined by when doubts of Shakespeares authorship is called "crapola" believed by "um... eccentrics". The burden of proof rightly lies on skeptics, but unless the articles purpose is to dismiss completely dismiss skeptics the statements "All these converge to confirm William Shakespeare's authorship" and "The historical record is unequivocal in assigning the authorship of the Shakespeare canon to William Shakespeare." do prejudice the issue. It's a double standard to call the "literary parallels with the known works of their candidate" cited by skeptics merely circumstantial evidence but "stylolometrics" cited by Shakespeares supporters as documentary. Both are stylistic and documentary, and reducing that to conjecture by one party while elevating it to science by another is clear bias. If the article is meant to show all those disputing Shakespeares authorship of "the Shakespeare canon" as "eccentrics" with only "crapola" to support their "Shakespeare Authorship Question" is an inappropriate title for an article better served by something like "False Disputes of Shakespeares Authorship" or "Mistaken Believes about Shakespeares Authorship". If the article is meant to seriously and fairly entertain minority skepticism of Shakespeares authorship against far better documented support it should do so without bias; if it is only meant to list erroneous and crazed views of his works authorship the title should reflect that instead. 83.109.31.128 (talk) 07:52, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Additional source

I was surprised to find no reference to Durning-Lawrence Library, a collection held at the University of London.

This is the private collection of Sir Edwin Durning-Lawrence (1837-1914), protagonist in the Bacon-Shakespeare authorship controversy, who expressed his views at greatest length in his monograph Bacon is Shakespeare (1910), a work which attracted numerous reviews, mostly uncomplimentary, and three dissident pamphlets. The library contains approximately 5,750 volumes.

From The Bacon-Shakespeare authorship controversy:

Sir Edwin Durning-Lawrence held the broad view, but argued most forcefully for Bacon's authorship of Shakespeare's works, in lectures, letters to the press, pamphlets and in a monograph, Bacon is Shakespeare (London, 1910). Inspired by Donnelly, Durning-Lawrence made much of cryptograms and especially of the word 'honorificabilitudinitatibus' in Love's Labour's Lost, which he turned into the anagram: 'Hi ludi F. Baconis nati tuiti orbis' ('These plays, F. Bacon's offspring, are preserved for the world'). Durning-Lawrence was also one of the mystical iconologists. He has been widely quoted, partly for the vehemence and certainty of his expressions. In the 1920s and 1930s, writers discussed the substance of his arguments for its own sake; more recent writings have shifted the emphasis and taken him as a representative for a strand within the history of Baconian criticism.

There are proper references at the bottom of that page.

Also, there is an article published in The Private Library, [sas-space.sas.ac.uk/.../Durning-Lawrence%20for%20Private%20Library.pdf FROM PRIVATE TO PUBLIC:THE DURNING-LAWRENCE LIBRARY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF LONDON] by K.E. Attar, Senate House Library, University of London

A review article by Brian Vickers of four works on the question of Shakespearean authorship, ‘Idle Worship’, in The Times Literary Supplement for 19 and 26 August 2005, castigates Durning-Lawrence for his extreme Baconianism and states as an aside that his ‘name as the donor of one of its collections still embarrasses users of Senate House Library’ (p. 6).

I leave it to others to decide how or where to integrate any of this. If I were coming fresh to the debate, I'd be intrigued to hear about such a character. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:03, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, we do mention his bit about 'honorificabilitudinitatibus', which unfortunately solved an 'enigma' by ignoring the rules of that Latin he thought explain the cipher. We've tried to restrict our sources to academic articles and books, and keeping to an absolute minimum links to websites, or archives, or primary sources. He certainly does deserve a Wiki biography, like so many of the characters in this curious tale, whom history has unfairly turned its back on after parading their speculations before the startled eyes of the reading public over the past 160 years, people like Wilbur Gleason Zeigler, D. D. Dodge, W. F. Wigston, H. Crouch Batchelor, W. S. Melsome,Edwin Reed, Francis Peter Gervais, Theron S. E. Dixon, Edward James Castle, Constance Mary Fearon Pott, George Seibel, Karl Bleitreu (the German wiki has one on him), Captain Bernard Mordaunt Ward, Elizabeth Marriott, Horace James Bridges, H. L. Hosmer, William George Thorpe, William T. Smedley, Edward Joseph White, Percy Allen, down to contemporary sceptics like Diana Price, Keir Cutler Roger Stritmatter, etc. We also need decent bios, or even stubs of those handful of valiant historians of these movements, who managed to wade neckdeep through the slough of despond of these marginalia, like W. H. Wyman, who compiled already in 1884 a bibliography of some 255 titles published between 1848 and that date, Frank Wadsworth, N. H. Gibson, etc. History has been most unkind to these theorists, and their anatomists, and I hope these lacunae can be fixed in the future.Nishidani (talk) 21:52, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Another possibility

William Shakespeare was the theatre equivalent of a ghostwriter - others wrote the stories and provided the background information and he turned them into plays. Jackiespeel (talk) 22:17, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Another possibility

Willian Shakespeare was a ghostwriter-playwrite - the others provided him with the stories and details of court life etc, which he worked up into plays. Jackiespeel (talk) 22:15, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Why would he need to be told details of court life? As a player in the Lord Chamberlain's Men and the King's Men, he was frequently at court. Also, since he could write, he could read, and court life was described abundantly.Nishidani (talk) 22:24, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

why is this important?

This is a subject that attracts attention and media interest; but aside from the overtly racist implications, I've never read an attempt to explain why the origin of the material is important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlefdsa (talk • contribs) 23:31, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Drinks all around!

That was a lot better than I expected, plus we've harvested some good edits! Cheers, boys and girls! Drink up! Tom Reedy (talk) 03:09, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, an excellent result. I recently watched an old film where cocktails and the like featured, and am in nostalgic mood, so make mine a G&T thanks! Johnuniq (talk) 03:45, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Tom, I'll have a Sherris sack, which seems appropriate to the topic. Glad I hung around. When I joined the fray, it was a case of "the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air", and for a while I was afraid I might have attached myself to the lost cause of a new Light Brigade. But it has turned out well, and after the noxious fumes were cleared I had the pleasure of working with some fine folks in a collegial atmosphere. Congratulations especially to you, to Nishidani, and to Paul B, who has been working on this page far longer than any of us, hanging in there for some eight years! Cheers, Alan W (talk) 05:33, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget, it's still linked from the main page for the next 3 days (under "Recently featured"). But congratulations to everybody involved, a very impressive article. --NSH001 (talk) 05:28, 24 April 2011 (UTC)