Talk:Phoenix Park

Comment

This page contains a chapter written on Phoenix park which was written in 1907

http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/Chart/chartlist.htm

Can some of the article be paraphrased into wikipedia? Has the copyright expired?

Sutton Park mention

Regarding Sutton Park: What has this got to do with the Phoenix Park? Absolutely nothing! Please leave it out. There is no mention in the article of the Phoenix Park claiming to be the largest city park in Europe or the World, frankly, who cares? The article is about the Phoenix Park, stick to the topic.

Phoenix Park is often popularly claimed to be the largest city park in Europe/the world (I've heard this "fact" multiple times in school), therefore a mention of why this is incorrect is very relevant to the article. Demiurge 16:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Sutton Park is a suburban park, and may well be larger than the Phoenix Park, but the Phoenix Park is a city park. It is about 200m from a main central mainline Railway Station, and 300m from the Guinness Brewery, and the gates just metres from the city's River Liffey. Sutton Park is 10km north of Birmingham, more of a semi-rural suburban nature reserve. Not comparable at all to Phoenix Park. Phoenix Park can only be compared to the likes of Central Park in New York. Anyway, there is no mention of it being the largest park, so why mention some obscure park in some suburban English area? Completely irrelevant. Stick to the subject: Phoenix Park, Dublin, not a park in England, it's a truly bizarre mention for an encyclopedia.

The article should include all the relevant facts about Phoenix Park. One of those facts is that Phoenix Park is widely claimed ([1] [2] [3] [4]) to be the largest enclosed city park in Europe/the world, when in fact it isn't. Very simple, and not bizarre in the slightest. If you want to qualify this by pointing out that Sutton Park is further out from the city centre, go ahead. But please don't remove relevant information from the article. Demiurge 18:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I feel like this small bit of information should remain; however, maybe it would better fit in its own section if the article was expanded at a later time. I study here in Dublin and have heard this 'fact' several times, so if it is something people believe to be true, the correct fact should be stated here. Feel free to discuss. Toofishes 23:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Apologies

POTW has a long history of trying to force consensus upon others, as evidenced at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Pigsonthewing and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pigsonthewing. He had recently been trolling me again after a period of relative calm, so I decided to go see what he was up to and went with a "better safe than sorry" approach when I saw reverts by him. I've reverted to Demiurge's original edit, sorry for the inconvenience. karmafist 23:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The above is a lie and a personal attack, contrary to Wikipedia policy, and should be removed by a neutral third party, ASAP (please feel free to remove this at the same time). Andy Mabbett 15:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Name

Phoenix Park or The Phoenix Park Bogger 15:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The OPW runs the park and it is Phoenix Park - see here ww2censor 21:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

On that page the first line of the introduction: "A lively and entertaining exhibition on the history and the wildlife of the Phoenix Park" the same way the wiki article entitled Statue of liberty refers to "the Statue of Liberty"

as much proof as i need at this stageBogger (talk) 12:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Stephen's Green, Howth head, no def. art.

Phoenix pk, 40 foot, def. art.

I'm talking bout the name throughout the wiki article, not the name which sholud not have a determiner.Bogger 14:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Again should the article refer to "the Phoenix Park" or "Phoenix Park"?? I believe it is "the Phoenix Park"130.104.77.14 (talk) 11:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. Do not assume that because a definte article is placed in front of the name at the beginning of a sentence means that is the name, that is correct grammatical use of the definite article. At the top of this page under "you are here" it shows the title Dublin > Phoenix Park. This page does not use a the anywhere and whenever you see it mentioned in the text of a sentence, the definite article is always lowercase, not uppercase, indicating grammatically that quite clearly the name is "Phoenix Park". Cheers ww2censor (talk) 14:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Kanye West

He is not playing the big top concerts, he is playing at Live at the Marquee. Completely different concerts, completely different promoters e.g. Aiken Promotions and MCD promotions. Could somebody fix this please thank you. 89.100.184.159 23:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)E-to-the-izzo89.100.184.159 23:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Largest Park

Richmond Park is bigger in area than the Phoenix Park, 955 v. 712. Richmond Park may not be urban in the strict sense of the world but it is surrounded by London city, it maybe suburban technically. It is enclosed, it is surrounded by a wall, "The Park contains notable buildings, ten of which, plus the whole wall of the park, are listed buildings". This surely merits a reference. Snappy56 (talk) 07:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you are correct upon reflection. My angle is that Phoenix Park is smaller than lots of things; Wicklow National Park for instance; the Bull Island etc - but I accept your point that Richmond is closer in the likely comparison a reader would have in mind. Sarah777 (talk) 07:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for agreeing. Also would the anon editor from NUI, Maynooth, please stop deleting this reference. Snappy56 (talk) 23:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You know one another?? How the heck do you know he/she/it is from NUI Maynooth?!! Sarah777 (talk) 23:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I know everything!! Well actually, I know by clicking here: [5]

Brilliant, Mr Holmes! Sarah777 (talk) 23:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Fuck it all then: According to britannica, a reliable source, Phoenix park is the largest enclosed urban public park in europe. The fact that richmond park is bigger is irrelevant. It is not urban, it is suburban. It is not a public park, it is a royal park to which the public have access. As such, there is no reason to include that information on the page. Adding that reference would be akin to adding a reference to Elephant Seals to the Capybara page. The capybara article specifies that they are the largest living rodent. One could well add the addendum "but elephant seals are bigger", but that is completely and utterly irrelevant- As is the reference to richmond park. Furthermore, "Richmond Park in London, England is larger in area at 955 hectares (2,360 acres)." is not a reference, it is merely a statement made by the editor. 89.100.88.180 (talk) 20:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not an invalid comparison, they are both large parks in cities, urban/suburban and royal/public is mere pedantry. It is also not original research, the figure is clearly stated on the Richmond Park website and so it is a published fact not OR. The main reason that this footnote (for that is what it is) is to stop new editors changing the opening sentence of this article, should they know that Richmond is bigger. The footnote is there to say that yes, Richmond Park is bigger so don't change the intro sentence which happened numerous times in the past. I have amended the footnote to state that Richmond is a royal suburban park. Anyway, it's not like either of these parks is the biggest in the world. Snappy56 (talk) 04:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Phoenix Park Racecourse

Does the old horse racing track have anything to do with the park? - Culnacréann-(talk) 21:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

The race course was actually located outside the boundary of the park itself and is now a housing development. This map shows the relationship between the two locations. ww2censor (talk) 19:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Motor Racing

The motor racing is no longer an annual event in the park, should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.221.196 (talk) 18:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you have some verifiable source that states the last year when motor racing took place? That is what should be added. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 19:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes i have this source http://www.pors-ireland.com/ if you would like more then i can get them. 89.100.221.196 (talk) 18:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

That source does not state anywhere, that I can find anyway, that racing no longer is an annual event. The synthesis is that because there was an event in 2006 and 2007 and nothing listed in 2008 for this championship, that racing has ceased or become non-annual. You cannot use synthesis, it is not verifiable. Please provide a better source preferably a URL that actually supports your suggestion. Thanks ww2censor (talk) 20:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Mystery plants: protected identities

"Among the 351 different plant species to be found in the Park there are three, which are rare and protected." The interest in this statement rests with the identification of the species.--Wetman (talk) 03:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Europe's largest enclosed urban park

Template:Rfcid Should or should the article not include the statement "phoenix park is Europe's largest enclosed urban park", a statement which is attributed to Encyclopædia Britannica, a Reliable Source 46.7.29.75 (talk) 09:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

That's how Britannica describes phoenix park. WP:V states that articles should be based on "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Which Britannica is. Why is there a problem with material referenced to a Britannica article? 46.7.29.75 (talk) 00:01, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

But by using that source you are saying that the park itself is lying. Surely the OPW, an Irish government agency, knows the facts better than and outside source? BTW, when was the Britannica updated last? Perhaps you should also read this pdf, (1.1 Preamble). ww2censor (talk) 00:35, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not saying the OPW's lying. They just don't mention information that britannica does. The park's website doesn't say that phoenix park isn't the largest enclosed urban park in Europe- It just doesn't say that it is. And I don't see why information from a reliable third party source should be excluded. 46.7.29.75 (talk) 13:28, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Both Sutton Park and Richmond Park are actually bigger. Snappy (talk) 23:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

But a third party, reliable source refers to phoenix park as the largest enclosed urban park in Europe. WP:V. 46.7.29.75 (talk) 09:35, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Phoenix Park in Dublin is 707 ha, Richmond Park in London is 955 ha, and Sutton Park in Birmingham is 970 ha, so a source that describes Phoenix Park are the largest in Europe is clearly incorrect, and therefore unreliable. Snappy (talk) 17:03, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Britannica is widely recognised as reputable. Just because you don't personally think it is doesn't change the fact that it is a reliable source. Again, take the time to read WP:V46.7.72.30 (talk) 00:12, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

It's proven to be wrong, so stop adding it to the article. 3 editors have reverted your changes, so also there is no consensus for your changes. Snappy (talk) 07:31, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not proven to be wrong. You just say it's wrong. Which again, does not matter, it's verifiability that matters.46.7.72.30 (talk) 10:42, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Its demonstrably wrong. You can't cherry pick one source and elevate above the rest. The parks own website doesn't even make this claim. Also, there is no consensus among editors for adding this, so please stop doing so. Snappy (talk) 19:39, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Again, verifiability, not truth. It's not cherry picking. Articles should be based on "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Which Britannica is. Why should it matter that the park's own website doesn't make that particular statement? 46.7.72.30 (talk) 20:01, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you understand what consensus on wikipedia is? The Britannica reference is factually incorrect. Here are four more urban parks in Europe which are all bigger than Phoenix Park: Casa de Campo (1700 ha), Monsanto Forest Park (1000 ha), Bois de Vincennes (995 ha) and Bois de Boulogne (850 ha). So along with Richmond and Sutton, Phoenix Park is the 7th largest in Europe. This is not original research, its just counting. Snappy (talk) 20:21, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you understand what verifiability on wikipedia is? 46.7.72.30 (talk) 18:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Also, I don't see anything about those parks being enclosed. 46.7.72.30 (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Richmond Park is a walled park surrounded by London city, that's enclosed. Snappy (talk) 19:12, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

A reliable source states that phoenix park is the largest enclosed urban park in Europe. 46.7.72.30 (talk) 18:57, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not reliable as its factually incorrect. Richmond Park is a enclosed urban city park in London and it is bigger than Phoenix Park. Also, there is no consensus for the changes you are proposing. Snappy (talk) 19:19, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

You don't seem to have read WP:V. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.". Whether you disagree with it or not is completely irrelevant. It's stated in a reliable source, and therefore should be included. 46.7.72.30 (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2011 (UTC)