Talk:Assange v Swedish Prosecution Authority

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Categorization: "Alleged sex crime" or "sex crime"

I believe that the article should not be categorized as a "sex crime", unless there is at least one conviction.

The legal proceedings as of today, qualify only as an "allegation of sex crime".

Therefore I expect to remove the erroneous categorization.--Arendal janitsjar (talk) 13:01, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Good catch, I hadn't noticed that. --Errant ^(chat!) 13:08, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that categorization in Category:Sex crimes (nor the categorization in Category:Crime in Sweden, which was also reverted) means that anybody has been convicted or even that the alleged crime did happen. This explains why Category:Sex crimes contains Category:Fugitives wanted on sex crime charges, a subcategory intended for people which are maybe not convicted. Btw, Category:Fugitives wanted on sex crime charges could be a more precise category for Julian Assange or Swedish Judicial Authority v Julian Assange, but I didn't use it because I'm not sure if Assange if actually charged with sex crime charges, or if the reason Sweden is asking for him is, for the moment, only conducting an interrogation. What is sure is that these extradition proceedings are based on allegations of sex crimes in Sweden. Apokrif (talk) 16:31, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Julian Assange is not a fugitive, and never has been. As to whether there were any 'sex crimes' at all, this is contested. Under no circumstances should any category which implies otherwise be used. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Allegation quotes

I see as of today we now have pretty explosive quotes from the victims relating to the allegations. This strikes me as extremely inappropriate per our BLP policy; my major concern that this is being presented as factual a long time before it has even reached a court has still not been addressed. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:48, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

And a prompt; please defend the Complaints section here before re-adding it. We are essentially presenting allegations in detail prior to a trial, contrary to our usual approach to BLP material. This is, I feel, a severe BLP problem both for Assange and the complainants. It is simply not appropriate to useful to go into detail at this time because the complaints are allegations at this stage. Convince me there is no BLP issue --Errant ^(chat!) 08:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, in regards to this edit, WP:BLP says "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". This material is neither "unsourced" nor "poorly sourced", so it is not a violation of WP:BLP. If I am wrong on this, please point to the particular part of the policy which contradicts me. I cannot find any such policy. Gregcaletta (talk) 08:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

That's a tiny portion of the BLP policy, and you know it ;) Here's some choice pieces that discuss the spirit of our approach to BLP's:

Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone. Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and look out for biased or malicious content.

Although it relates specifically to gossip BLP also cautions: 'Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject.

Of relevance, as well, is WP:LIBEL, on the basis that just because these women are claiming these events does not make them true - and without firm basis to back up their claims we should take the responsible action and pare it back to the bare minimum.

Finally, I also have concerns with the selection of the wording used in the text - which is a little selective based on my reading of the source - to case it in a particularly damaging light.

I think the responsible and neutral response at the moment is record that these women have made allegations, and record the facts of the case so far, but avoid significant detail on the allegations because that is still a matter that is ongoing. Continual re-addition of this material w/o discussion is not helping your case at this point IMO --Errant ^(chat!) 09:16, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually Greg, focusing on reliable sources is just the start of the BLP policy (and really that is required for all content in Wikipedia, so its a bit of a red herring to focus on it so closely.

"Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives, and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment"

"When writing about a person notable only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems, even when the material is well-sourced. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. This is of particular importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization."

Since there is a LOT of information on the Biographies of Living Persons page, I won't belabor the point by including it all here. But focusing only on Reliable Sources as the guide for biographical information really leaves out most of the point of the BLP guidelines. -- Avanu (talk) 16:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I removed one sentence and this is why

I don't even like to touch the gossip edits and the edits that so obviously violate WP:BLP, it's a waste of time. The rubbish gets removed, only to be put in a few days later. If there is another vote on this article I will vote for its deletion.

The following sentence was added by Gregcaletta: The 26-year-old woman alleges that the morning after she had consensual sex with him, he initiated unprotected sex with her while she was "half asleep"', with the following comment: OK, this material is neither unsourced nor poorly sourced, so it does not fall under WP:BLP. I have left my explanation on the talk page. Two references to sources followed. I looked them up. I also looked up the relevant text of the European arrest warrant. Compare the content and wording of the above sentence, currently removed from the article, with the wording and content of the sources:

• [...] Assange deliberately consummated sexual intercourse with her by improperly exploiting that she, due to sleep, was in a helpless state. It is an aggravating circumstance that Assange, who is aware that it was the expressed wish of the injured party and a prerequisite of sexual intercourse that a condom be used, still consummated unprotected sexual intercourse with her. The sexual act was designed to violate the injured party's sexual integrity. Certified Arrest Warrant

• Miss W later tells police that Assange that morning had unprotected sex with her while she was still asleep.msnbc.com staff and news service reports, last updated 12 August 2010

• Early the next morning, Miss W told police, she had gone to buy breakfast before getting back into bed and falling asleep beside Assange. She had awoken to find him having sex with her [...] However, Assange and his lawyers have repeatedly stressed that he denies any kind of wrongdoing in relation to Miss W. In submissions to the Swedish courts, they have argued that Miss W took the initiative in contacting Assange, that on her own account she willingly engaged in sexual activity in a cinema and voluntarily took him to her flat where, she agrees, they had consensual sex. They say that she never indicated to Assange that she did not want to have sex with him. They also say that in a text message to a friend, she never suggested she had been raped and claimed only to have been "half asleep".Guardian, 17 Dec 2010

The claim that Assange deliberately consummated sexual intercourse with the woman is the basis for the arrest warrant and the extradition proceedings. The police/prosecution description fulfills the definition of rape while Assange denies any wrongdoing. While I do not consider it as a necessary detail for the article I would not object to it if an editor puts such details in the article. It's in the EAW and in sources 1 and 2 quoted above. But source 2 contains some more info, namely what Assange's lawyer say that the woman said in a text message to a friend. To selectively include such flimsy information to the exclusion of the more solid information about the legal state of the affair, at this point in time, is stupid at best and malicious at worst. This is what the extradition judge had to say of this kind of material: Generally the material was hearsay. I have reminded myself of the dangers of hearsay. The maker of the statement has not been cross-examined. Some comments may have been misunderstood, misreported or mistranslated. In some cases the maker of the document may not even have intended to state the literal truth. Often it is not possible to assess the reliability or even the identity of the maker of the statement. I could not have said it better. No editor should include such material at this stage. Assange is wanted for rape and sexual assault. He may not have committed rape and sexual assault. He may get cleared of rape and sexual assault. Yes, that's not a nice thing to happen to someone. Get over it. KathaLu (talk) 17:00, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me being dumb, but I don't understand your point here, KathaLu. Could you be more precise as to why this sentence was so bad compared to the rest of the complaints section? The article looks weird now, with five sentences about the 31 years old's complaints and none about the 26 year old's. Either we remove the complaints section all together, or we have to state somehow what the complaints of both women are. Mbulle (talk) 21:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Mbulle, you are right of course, the 4th complaint (concerning the 2nd woman) needs to be listed, in the same manner as the other 3 complaints (as long as they are in article in such detail. I would delete the whole lot if it were up to me). I hope my frustration does not show <wry grin>. The point the lawyers try to make is this: if she was half-asleep, it isn't rape - hardly a NPOV. The choice of the word "initiated" is also biased because it implies, ok, he started it and she was perhaps a bit unwilling but then went along with it, how can this be rape or even wrong somehow - again not NPOV, and a selective reading of the source material. That's why I objected to the sentence. And it all just shows what others have said: the less details in the article, the better. KathaLu (talk) 22:28, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Distortion or concealment of the nature of the offences (of which Assange is suspected but which he denies) by linguistic conjuring tricks

It was not my idea to include the Swedish expressions of the 3 kind of offences in the article and to explain them to the English monoglot reader and legal layperson. But since it's there, it has to be done right. Therefore, I made the following changes:

• sexual ofredande became sexuellt ofredande (either both words are in Swedish or both words are in English, you can't pick). With this, the sentence "Ofredande" has no legal equivalent in England, and is variously translated as sexual "molestation", "harassment", "annoyance" or "disturbance" became pointless and the translation of this term, in the given context, became non-ambiguous, namely as follows:
• [sexuellt ofredande] which translates as "sexual molestation" (see Certified European Arrest Warrant of 6 December 2010) or "sexual assault" (see Extradition Ruling of 24 February 2011). KathaLu (talk) 20:53, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Seems good. In my view "molestation" captures the Swedish sense much better than "assault", but since is was used in the ruling, it's probably best to list both translations.Mbulle (talk) 21:51, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Björn Hurtig receives warning by Swedish Bar Association

This might be of tangential interest. The Swedish Bar Association yesterday issued a warning to Assange's lawyer Björn Hurtig because of percieved lies that he told to the judge during the extradition hearing. It was the claim that Swedish prosecutors had not tried to set up an interview with Assange before he left Sweden that caused Judje Riddle to accuse Hurtig of misleading the court.

The Bar Association also has the power to issue a fine or revoke a lawyer's permission to practice law. The Bar Association decided to only issue Björn Hurtig a warning though.

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/1.2464413/assanges-svenska-advokat-varnas