Talk:Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople

Untitled

Dogface, we do too call the EP the "Church of Constantinople." See, for example, the [list] of Autocephalous Churches on the OCA website. If the EP prefers to not call itself that then someone should say so, but as far as I can tell pretty much everyone else does, so to say the term is "not used" isn't accurate. --Csernica 00:15, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

External links

Think thay may be usefull, and expecially if someone will make an article for each metropolis this could be both an information source and an external links reference ready to be put at the end of each article.

Archdiocese of Constantinople http://www.patriarchate.org/

Metropolis of Rhodes http://www.imr.gr/

Archdiocese of Crete ? http://www.iak.gr/

Archdiocese of America http://www.goarch.org/

Archdiocese of Australia http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/index.htm

Archdiocese of Great Britain ??? http://www.nostos.com/church/

Archdiocese of Italy http://www.ortodossia.it/

Metropolis of Korea http://orthodox.or.kr/english/e_main.htm

Metropolis of Canada http://www.gocanada.org/

Metropolis of Argentina ??? http://www.saeamerica.org/en/omogeneia/

Metropolis of Central America ??? http://www.saeamerica.org/en/omogeneia/

Metropolis of New Zealand http://www.imnz.org.nz/

Metropolis of Hong Kong http://www.cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/hkmetropolis.html

Metropolis of France http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eglise.orthodoxe.grecque/

Metropolis of Germany http://www.orthodoxie.net/

Metropolis of Austria http://www.agiosgeorgios.at/

Metropolis of Belgium http://www.eglise-orthodoxe.be/

Metropolis of Scandinavia ??? (see below)

Metropolis of Switzerland ???

Metropolis of Spain and Portugal http://igrejaortodoxa.web.pt/

Church of Finland http://www.ort.fi/

Church of Estonia http://www.orthodoxa.org/

American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church http://www.acrod.org/

Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA http://www.uocofusa.org/

Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada http://www.uocc.ca/

Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America http://www.goarch.org/en/otherpatriarchal/alb.asp

Russian Orthodox Archdiocese of Western Europe http://www.exarchat.org/

Belorussian Orthodox Church in the world http://www.goarch.org/en/otherpatriarchal/bel.asp

Update: I have searched, but I can find no evidence of a Metropolis of Scandinavia. Both the Parish of the Protection of the Theotokos (Denmark) [1], St. Nicholas (Norway) [2] and the two churches of the Holy Transfiguration (Sweden; [3] (Stockholm) and [4] (Överkalix) belong to the Russian Orthodox Archdiocese of Western Europe (Constantinople Patriarchate). Valentinian ^(talk) 23:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources and Contentions

I have two problems with this article.

1. It states that the Apostle Andrew was the founder of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. While it seems that the Orthodox regularly claim this, it appears that it is unfounded. For example, the Catholic Encyclopaedia[5] says:

In the fifth century we meet with a spurious document attributed to a certain Dorotheus, Bishop of Tyre at the end of the third century, according to which the Church of Byzantium was founded by the Apostle St. Andrew, its first bishop being his disciple Stachys (cf. Romans 16:9). The intention of the forger is plain: in this way the Church of Rome is made inferior to that of Constantinople, St. Andrew having been chosen an Apostle by Jesus before his brother St. Peter, the founder of the Roman Church.

2. It doesn't cite its sources.

FWIW, just because the CE says something doesn't make it true. The anti-Orthodox POV of that publication is pretty explicit. —Preost ^talk contribs 21:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I know it doesn't mean it's true, but it does represent a somewhat justified alternative viewpoint from a source of some repute (at the very least, it is cited as a source in other articles on the site). This article neither cites its sources nor acknowledges that there is some dispute on the matter. Hairouna 05:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Apparently someone has now removed ther remarks about the Apostle Andrew, but now there is no history here at all. Surely we can add some citable history: if there is contention, we should cite the contending sources. - Jmabel | Talk 20:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Contentions

Hi, I think that I can say something about the apostle Andrew: 1) it is sure that the patriarchate was not founded by the apostle Andrew because in the first centuries of christian life Costantinople was but a part of Antioch patriarchate and it raised to the rank of an independent one, and after some even to the first of all orthodox patriarchates, only much time after this 2) the apostle Andrew can be considered on the other side as the founder of the costantinople first christian communities in the first century after chirst, starting an apostolic succession arriving to the patriarchate 3) we can probably have no scientific proofs about the fact that saint Andrew was really the founder of the first Costantinople communities, but it is a matter of fact that: the undivided church, of which also the western popes were between the most authoritative members before the schism of 1066, and its uninterrupted tradition, always accepted the apostolic origin of the see of costantinople as undoubted. At the time, the independent patriarchates were all and only the sees who could claim an apostolic origin, that is, Rome, first of all because founded by Peter, chief of the other apostles, and then exactly Antioch, Alexandria, Costantinople and Jerusalem 4) the consideration that the story of saint andrew was invented only to give the primate to costantinople at the place of rome is totally inconsistent, because, as i have said, peter was considered as the chief of the apostles by the undivided church, and rome the first apostolic see before costantinople, also in the eastern parts of the church, and that the date of foundation was not considered the most important thing (otherwise the first see should have been Jerusalem, and so nay neither rome nor costantinople). This fact makes me think that the catholic enciclopedia is generally inaccurate on this matter at all. the present orthodox church still consider costantinople as the first patriarchate only for the fact that rome separated and then is not part of the church anymore. For all the acts of the church done before the schism, rome is still considered as the first patriarchate even in the orthodox present church. 5) Specularly, and linking again to point 3, the present Roman catholic church also DOES still recognize the apostolic foundation of costantinople by Andrew because this was stated in all the general councils before the schism, in which the see of rome was present, and that it still recognizes as a still valid part of its history still to now. Controversies can sometime have been aroused but the official teaching of both the two churches still recognize its common origin, and it is therefore not the case, at least for what concern this matter, to have any other problems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.90.54.65 (talk • contribs)

1. Please. It's "Constantinople". You keep leaving off the first "n". It's driving me nuts.
2. The conventional date for the schism is 1054. 1066 was the year of the Norman conquest of England. But even 1054 is merely a convention. The events of that year did not significantly affect relations.
3. The Popes of Rome were the most senior in rank and enjoyed a primacy in honor. They were not "most authoritative". This is precisely the bone of contention between East and West about the role of the Papacy, and it would be incorrect to assert only one side's version as fact in the article.
4. Part and parcel with that is the idea behind the ranking of the various Patriarchates. In the Eastern view it had to do with the importance of the cities, not the Apostolic foundation of the churches as such. This is reflected in Canon 3 of I Constantinople, Canon 28 of Chalcedon, and Canon 36 of Trullo. None of these are accepted by Rome, but the clearly reflect the Eastern view of the matter, that Rome's primacy was due to its being the old capital of the Empire and not because its bishops are successors to Peter in any unique way. In fact, cities with churches of Apostolic foundation are fairly common in the East and not limited to the Patriarchates. (Read your Bible. A number are mentioned, and many others were not.)
5. Nevertheless, your basic point that the claim of the church in Byzantium as having been founded by St. Andrew is on shaky ground is valid. It doesn't mean terribly much though, since this argument is no longer used as support for Constantinople's position. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Rename/move proposal

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Moved. "Orthodox Church of Constantinople" quite uncommon; "Church of Constantinople", as noted below, could be another reasonable possibility. —Centrx→talk • 09:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is the more common name for this church. —Preost ^{talk contribs} 20:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Really? I've heard "Church of Constantinople" or "Ecumenical Patriarchate". Even if I've ever heard it put together this way -- and I haven't -- "Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople" seems redundant. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Why redundant? Ecumenical was an addition to the existing title of the patriarch rather than a replacement for of Constantinople. The title eventually came to refer to the patriarchate itself. In any event, I'd certainly settle for Ecumenical Patriarchate. Orthodox Church of Constantinople sounds like something an academic made up. —Preost ^{talk contribs} 21:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

"Ecumenical" designates the Patriarch of the Imperial City, thus implying "Constantinople". I think "Church of Constantinople" ought to be acceptable though -- what was the local church called before its bishop was raised to Patriarchal rank? TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Support the move. This institution is clearly far better known under that name or just the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I'd prefer the first name since it seems more "encyclopedic" and is used by the Church itself on its official webpage. ("Orthodox Church of Constantinople" is fine as a redirect, but I've never heard it before.) Valentinian ^(talk) 22:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Support and comment. As a Greek i've never heard the term "Orthodox Church of Constantinople"... Also, according to my knowledge, regarding the foreign (apart from turkish) media, i have always heard/read the term Ecumenical Patriarchate. I am not sure if the best move would be Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople or Ecumenical Patriarchate (both terms are used in greek-i'm mentioning greek, cause it has been the official language of it-but the second one has been and still is, by far the most common). And if we take a look on what both terms mean, we can easily understand which is the "correct" (grammatically speaking): Ecumenical Patriarchate, cause no other orthodox patriarch uses the title "Ecumenical"-so, it is just a pleonasm to say "[...] of Constantinople"...(but i'd prefer this instead of the current title). Lastly, to user TCC: the Catholic Church was called "Patriarchate of the West" (at the time when the Ecumenical Patriarch was called "Bishop of Byzantium"), but noone can even imagine a move for the respective article or for the Pope... --Hectorian 00:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. First, the Pope only picked up the title "Patriarch of the West" in the 7th Century, long after Byzantium had ceased to be be called by that name. Second, the name of the Church of Rome has never officially been "Patriarchate of the West", whatever he may have been called by his eastern colleagues. Just ask any Roman Catholic who actually knows his history. Third, you don't appear to be responding to anything I said.

However, you do give me the opportunity to mention a concern I have with the proposed move. It identifies the Church of the city with the person of the EP. Imagine (to continue your analogy with the west) if Pope redirected to Roman Catholic Church. Is there no history of the Church of Constantinople that can be told apart from that of the Patriarchate itself? TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Patriarchate does not usually refer to the person, but rather to the body, as is the case with all the ancient patriarchates of the Orthodox Church. Patriarch and patriarchate are two different words in Greek, just as they are in English. —Preost ^{talk contribs} 02:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it will be a problem in practice. The Patriarch and Patriarchate are two different things, so as I see it "Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople" (or whatever title this page will end up with) should describe the institution, its structure and history (in short; a parallel to the Holy See article). "Bartholomew I" should describe the current Patriarch, "Eastern Orthodoxy" should be a description of the faith, its history and its main parallels and differences with the Catholic and Protestant Churches. Once this material becomes more developed (and it is currently incredibly underdeveloped) I think that'll solve the converns mentioned. The institution of the Partiarchate has a long history which needs a better description. For one thing, I can't imagine any institution this old completely unchanged throughout history, and I'd expect we could find information on a few power struggles with either emperors or sultans - just to name the two examples that immediately jump to my mind. A bit of information on the two patriarchs accused of being either Lutheran or Calvinist would probably go here as well. I think the main problem is that these articles are still so incredibly short and underdeveloped. Valentinian ^(talk) 09:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good argument for joining WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy!  :) —Preost ^{talk contribs} 12:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment I suppose that aside from the implied redundancy the only trouble I have with the idea is that the name doesn't apply in all historical periods. Even after the city was renamed Constantinople, its bishop was not immediately accorded Patriarchal rank, and "Ecumenical" came even later. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That is a concern, sure, but I can't really think of any other term that would suffice on par with the "Holy See" in Rome. The early Popes were originally little more than bishops of Rome, but they're still grouped along with Pope Benedict. My 2 cents would say that we should use the most recent name, but of course provide enough redirects to take care of e.g. the Bishops of Byzantium. The other concerns you mention (former titles, fewer powers, lesser status, former relation to other branches of the church (both in East and West)) look to me more like material belonging to article space, where is should be spelled out clearly that the current situation is only the last link in a long chain of devolopments. I think (hope) this would solve the problem. Regards. Valentinian ^(talk) 21:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Big list o' names

I think the gigantic list of folks involved in the patriarchate should be significantly trimmed. It would be better included in a "List of..." article, but I'm not sure that's really even warranted, either. Perhaps a list of those on the holy synod might be sufficient. —Preost ^{talk contribs} 23:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Big overhaul

Okay, I've significantly rewritten the article. A lot could probably use references, to be sure. I've undertaken this rewrite as part of the WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy Collaboration of the Month. —Preost ^{talk contribs} 15:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Turkish name

The correct Turkish name should be "Fener Rum Patrikhanesi" or "Istanbul Rum Patrikhanesi" --Hattusili 09:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the correct official name is "Istanbul Fener Rum Patrikhanesi". E104421 12:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It is the name used by Turkey and noone else in the world. Funny, but better keep this for "internal consumption"... Hectorian 14:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It's the name used by the patriarchy itself. E104421 14:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Used by the patriarchate in what context? Miskin 14:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I added the attested name and definition. Miskin 20:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that it is good for Turkey's image to include the Turkish term Hattusili and E104421 proposed. It reveals that Turkey is the only state in the world not recognizing the ecumenality of the Patriarchate. So, I'm surprised they actually want this Turkish name to be there! Anyway! Their call!--Yannismarou 17:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Rum Ortodoks Patrikhanesi is actually *the* official name. The Fener name is unofficial. This name, despite common misunderstanding is not derived from, nor does it mean "Patriarchy of the Istanbul Greeks" as you seem to imply. Rum->Roman->Romanioi. This is the name used since the time of Mehmed II, who by the way also used among his titles, the title Kayzer-i Rum -> Caesar of the Romans. The Ottomans greatly supported the Patriarchy's claims to be the "true" Roman church. To pertain to "Rome" is not exactly a put down??? Anyway, the Patriarchy uses this title in Turkish. I also added a citation from historian Ilber Ortayli's book as he makes a reference to the official legal name. Free smyrnan 19:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

After the Fall of Constantinople - Citations

Regarding the administrative and legal jurisdiction of milletbasi --

"..The famous millet system, developed in the main for the govenance of the Greek and Armenian communities, was extended in similar form to the Jews. According to this system, as interpreted at that time, each of the religious communities of the empire was organized internally, subject to its own laws in matters of religion and personal status, administered under the authority of its own religious chief." Lewis, Bernard, "The Jews of Islam", p.125-126 ISBN 0-691-00807-8

"..They were ... organized into millets or nations, self-governing communities preserving their own laws and usages under a religious head responsible to the central power for the administration and good behaviour of his people." Lord Kinross, "Ottoman Centuries: The Rise and Fall of the Turkish Empire (1977)" ISBN 0-688-08093-6 , p. 112-113

"The patriarch's temporal duties and his power had by the eighteenth century become immense. He was the millet bashi (head of the millet) and ethnarch (secular ruler) of the Orthodox population. Since he was a high official in the Ottoman government and part of the askeri bureaucratic class, he was entitled to a standard with two horsetails (an Ottoman governor or general had three, the sultan six). The patriarch was responsible to his ruler for the behaviour and loyalty of his flock. He was also given important duties connected with tax collecting and the maintenance of public order. His judicial functions were particularly significant for the Christian population. The church had full jurisdiction over a wide range of affairs, including matters relating to marriage and the family and, in practice, commercial cases involving only Christians. Although criminal cases, such as murder and theft, were theoretically under the control of the Muslim judicial system, the Orthodox courts often handled these as well as long as no Muslim was involved. In administering justice the church based its decisions on canon law, Byzantine statutory law, local customs and church writings and traditions. Ecclesiastical courts could hand out penalties such as imprisonment, fines and exile, along with the denial of the sacraments and excommunication." Jelavich, Barbara, “History of the Balkans, 18th and 19th Centuries” (1983), ISBN 0-521 27458-3 p.52

I consider these, which I did take out the trouble of typing in as well as citing, to be sufficient. Please remove the citation needed link -- actually citing particularly the Jelavich source would be useful. --Free smyrnan 06:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Languages

Does my Church actually allow all these languages? I mean all the Churches I've been to have only been said in Greek, only the homily was in English, which was said by a younger priest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.63.161 (talk) 18:09, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The prevailing Orthodox practice is to recite the liturgy in the language of the congregation: Arabic in Syria, English in England, French in France. Familiar exceptions are the Slavonic churches, whose liturgies are usually in Old Slavonic (not modern Russian, Serbian, Czech, Bulgarian, etc.) and the Church of Greece, which is in Koine Greek, i.e. the language in which the New Testament was originally written. But the difference from modern idiom is not, in these cases, great enough to prevent the worshippers from understanding what's being said. The usual practice of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America, most of whose parishes continue to celebrate the liturgy in Greek and most of whose members speak English or Spanish as their first language, is the big exception. Tom129.93.17.174 (talk) 20:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Constantinople seal.gif

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

OrthodoxWiki as a source

The article states that it is based in part on another Wiki, in direct violation of policies on reliable sources and verifiability. I'm not sure what to do about that short of gutting the article and starting over. Feedback and suggestions are welcome. Pairadox (talk) 07:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Patriarchate of Constantinople

Isn't it a violation of NPOV to redirect here from "Patriarchate of Constantinople", when there is also an existent Armenian Church of Constantinople that has a Patriarch and a historical Latin Church of Constantinople as well? Deusveritasest (talk) 06:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems pretty clearly in keeping with standard practice since it's by far the most common usage. As a similar example, Pope is about the Roman Catholic leader, despite there also being a Coptic Pope, among others. --Delirium (talk) 16:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Relation to the Metropolis of Ephesus

It seems that in the 4th century jurisdiction in the Church was moving towards numerous provinces being subject to the capital of the diocese (eg: Diocese of Asia, Diocese of Thrace, etc.), with the head Metropolitan of the Diocese being called an Exarch. It is my understand that the Metropolitan of Ephesus was the Exarch of all the Diocese of Asia. However, this article, by stating that Byzantium was once under the jurisdiction of Ephesus, seems to suggest that Ephesus' jurisdiction was at one point even more extensive simply than the Diocese of Asia, given that Byzantium was part of the Diocese of Thrace rather than the Diocese of Asia. Can someone explain what is going on with this? And could perhaps sources be cited showing that Ephesus' jurisdiction extended beyond Asia Minor? Deusveritasest (talk) 23:22, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

• • As a matter of fact, Byzantium was once under the jurisdiction of Heraclea, not Ephesus (see "Part I : A Short Story" from "The Ecumenical Patriarchate : A History of Its Metropolitans with Annotated Hierarch Catalogs" by Demetrius Kiminas, 2009, Borgo Press —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.154.2.3 (talk) 17:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

That was what I would have understood to be the situation. But I thought I saw other sources indicating that Ephesus had jurisdiction over Constantinople. I am wondering if there is substance to this claim. Parallel to this issue is the fact that certain sources labelled Ephesus as a Patriarchate that was later replaced by Constantinople. I am very curious as to why this article originally claimed that Constantinople was at one point subject to Ephesus. Deusveritasest (talk) 20:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

"Christianity in Byzantium existed from the 1st century"

Since Jesus was only 4 years old at this time, how could Christianity exist? Where would the citation of this be? 24.38.96.66 (talk) 16:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC) mpau0516

does it say it existed from the first year of the first century? The church of Constantinople claims that Stachys_the_Apostle was their first bishop, from 38 to 54. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.37.41.63 (talk) 06:31, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

300 millions

Yeah, it's written on the internet so it must be right? The introduction says it's one of the orthodox churches, and the info panel says the territory is Turkey (75 million people, at least 95% muslim) and a few others. 300 million people is the total of all orthodox people worldwide. The main orthodox church is the church of Moscow, which rules over Russia and most of the former soviet republics (millions of Ukrainian orthodox people recognize the authority of Moscow instead of Kiev). So in a nutshell, CBS wrote something outrageously stupid that needs to be reconized as so.~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.37.41.63 (talk) 06:24, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Read what the intro says again, slowly and carefully: "It is headed by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, who has the status of "first among equals" among the world's Orthodox bishops. The current patriarch, and spiritual leader of the world's 300 million Orthodox Christians". Constantinople is the senior Orthodox see, and that is why it is recognized by everybody (except Turkey) as "Ecumenical". Constantine ✍ 07:23, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

take a few minutes to read the word "equals". The title "primus inter pares" is purely honorary and does not imply any kind of spiritual leadership. Contrary to the idiotic statement you just put back, the patriarch of Constantinople has absolutely no spiritual authority over the patriarch of Moscow or over Russian orthodox people since 1448, and other patriarchates became independent earlier. You are in blatant contradiction with the rules of neutrality for denying this.

To complete your little propaganda within wiki, I suggest you to urgently correct the article about "Full Communion", especially the sentence "[Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches] too consider full communion an essential condition for common sharing in the Eucharist. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, as first among equals among the Eastern Orthodox autocephalous churches and their spiritual leader, though not having authority similar to that of the Pope, serves as their spokesman. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.37.41.63 (talk) 08:53, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Can you calm down and stop with stupid accusations of propaganda and bias against someone you don't even know? Comparing the Pope's authority with that an Orthodox hierarch is pointless. "Spiritual leader" can mean a whole lot of things, from the Pope who has his own state and absolute control over his church and flock to the Dalai Lama or the patriarch of Constantinople who have limited to none. The patriarch of Constantinople may have a minuscule flock, but he is, to the world at large, the head of Orthodoxy. That doesn't mean that he can command the other Orthodox patriarchs or churches to do or not do something, but it means that he represents the world's Orthodox Christians. Neither Moscow nor Jerusalem nor Alexandria nor anyone else have his status and prestige. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, the whole world sees it that way. That is why he receives head of state honours, that is why he gets to visit the White House, that is why the Ukrainians made the whole "royal reception" back in 2008. Because Moscow may be the 900-pound gorilla of the Orthodox world, but Constantinople has a spiritual authority that commands respect (far) beyond the size of its flock. Constantine ✍ 20:37, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

PS, just to dispel your obvious prejudice, neither the Orthodox Church nor any church or other organized religion are "my" church. I am agnostic. Constantine ✍ 20:41, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I can only agree with what you're saying from "Neither Moscow" till "size of its flock". And what you're saying here is that the patriarch of Constantinople is the main representative of the 300 million followers of the Eastern Orthodox Church, that he serves as their spokesperson during his meetings with world leaders. A business leader leads. A military leader leads. A religious leader leads. And a representative represents. That's 2 different things, that's all I'm saying.

With all her prestige, Queen Elizabeth doesn't lead much, besides her own family and maybe the Church of England (or is that the guy from Canterbury, I'll let you check that). But she does represent England, the United Kingdom, and the Commonwealth when meeting world leaders. If you went to edit the page about Elizabeth II and started to write that she is the leader of the United Kingdom, someone would have to tell you that you're wrong. You can either write that the patriarch of Constantinople is the religious leader of a few thousand Eastern Orthodox, mainly in Turkey (low figure resulting from what is now called ethnic cleansing, if I understood anything about the history of Turkey in the early 20th century), or that he is the representative of the 300 million followers of the Eastern Orthodox Church, or both, but please just avoid confusing notions.

Wow, that was a lot of efforts for something really simple.