Talk:Middlesex (novel): Difference between revisions
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==Inaccurate terminology== |
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The article uses "hermaphrodite" multiple times. People with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency are not, in fact, hermaphrodites in any medical sense: they do not have both male and female gonadal tissue. They are male with a deficiency of an enzyme in the testosterone pathway, and so have testes and, post-puberty, a phallus. As a technical term, "hermaphrodite" refers to a vanishingly small percentage of people. As a social term, it is considered offensive, and the term "intersex" is to be preferred. |
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==Infobox incomplete?== |
==Infobox incomplete?== |
Revision as of 21:50, 11 July 2011
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Inaccurate terminology
The article uses "hermaphrodite" multiple times. People with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency are not, in fact, hermaphrodites in any medical sense: they do not have both male and female gonadal tissue. They are male with a deficiency of an enzyme in the testosterone pathway, and so have testes and, post-puberty, a phallus. As a technical term, "hermaphrodite" refers to a vanishingly small percentage of people. As a social term, it is considered offensive, and the term "intersex" is to be preferred.
Infobox incomplete?
I have deleted this message because I don't think it is true. I added fiction as the genre, which I *think* was the only missing field, because it is not in a series and was not translated from another language into english. If I'm missing something please tell me. Tartan 20:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Other than using "Novel" instead of Fiction - you re quite correct. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Useful links
Note to self: http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780312422158-1, http://www.indiebound.org/book/9780312427733, and http://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/index.cfm?book_number=1318 contain snippets/links to a number of reviews. Cunard (talk) 07:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- Link to journal abstract. Cunard (talk) 08:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Interview – includes Eugenides' perspective on the nature vs. nurture theme in his novel. Cunard (talk) 09:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Copy edit April 2010
Following a request from Cunard (talk), I have done a copy edit of this article. There are still a few issues which I have not had time to review, so if anyone has time and wish to help, please do. For FA articles, only the first mention of a word or term should be wikified. There are some words that are wikified more than once, and sometimes, they are not wikified on its first mention, but further down. This needs to be corrected. I also do not have the time now to go through the peer review. I will try to do that tomorrow. Cheers. -- S Masters (talk) 17:19, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
GA Review
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Middlesex (novel)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
I will be conducting this review. I've done an initial read-through and so far, it's in excellent shape. The article has obviously benefited from some thorough copy edits and reads very well. Perhaps more importantly, it appears to be well sourced and covers all the broad aspects of the article. I am going to go through the available sources in a second look through, but in the meantime, here are some initially comments, almost all of which will be easy to address. Please respond to each item line-by-line and I'll strike them as we go... — Hunter Kahn 05:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Lead:
"The novel's characters and events are loosely based on the author's life, including the 1967 Detroit riot, which he observed as a child." I personally don't feel like this sentence adequately sums up the autobiographical elements that played a part in the writing of this novel. Rather than one brief sentence focusing largely on the Detroit riot, I'd suggest something a bit more broad, describing how several elements of Eugenides' life parallels those of Callie. Maybe something like, "The novel's characters and events are loosely based on the author's life. Both Eugenides and the protagonist were raised in Detroit, came from a Greek family, and witnessed some of the same events, like the 1967 Detroit riots."
- Done. Reworded per your suggestion. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Do you think it's worth including a sentence in the lead about how Eugenides was inspired to write this book? (The Memoirs of Herculine Barbin and all that?)
- Done. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Background and publication
"had to be capable of telling epic events in the third person and psychosexual events in the first person. It had to render the experience of a teenage girl and an adult man, or an adult male-identified hermaphrodite." In order to use a direct quote, you have to attribute in the sentence who said it. Obviously, it's Eugenides in this case, but you have to clarify that in the lead-in. Also, I'm not sure the first half of this quote (the half-sentence ending in "the first person") really has to be quoted. I'd suggest paraphrasing that part, and just using the quote on the sentence starting with "It had to render..."
- Done. Paraphrased. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Plot
Much like you include a cited reference to why the brother's name is "Chapter Eleven", can you add that the character "The Obscure Object" is a reference to the film That Obscure Object of Desire?
- Added. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
"...first sexual experiences with both sexes" I'd suggest using "genders" for the latter word, to avoid redundancy with the word sex.
- Reworded. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Do tractor, tradition and diplomat really need to be wikilinked, as per WP:OVERLINK?
- Removed links. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Intersexed should be wikilinked in the first reference (the third paragraph), not in the second reference as it is now, right?
- Done. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a reference to "Milton's funeral", but not to his death, which seems sort of abrupt and confusing. I would suggest adding some reference to his death in this last paragraph.
- Added reference to his death. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Autobiographical elements
"Eugenides named the bar in Middlesex Zebra Room as a "secret code of paying homage to my grandparents and my parents"." Maybe I'm just missing something here, but how exactly does calling the bar the Zebra Room serve this function?
- Eugenides' grandfather owned a bar called the Zebra Room. I've added this to the article. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
"Both Eugenides and the narrator have lived on a street called Middlesex Boulevard. Both Eugenides and the narrator..." Both of these sentences start with "Both Eugenides and the narrator..." which seems a bit redundant. Could you reword one of them?
- Reworded the second sentence. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
"hippie phases" I don't believe you're supposed to use quotes unless it's something you can attribute to somebody else. Either change it to "who undergoes what Eugenides called "hippie phrases"" or just paraphrase it.
- Changed to "who undergoes what Eugenides called "hippie phrases"". Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
This is a minor point, but can you add context to what Salon is? All it takes is "...in an interview with the online magazine Salon..."
- Context added. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Style
- "The depiction of Stephanides' relationship with the blacks, as well as America's race issues, have been criticized as having a "preachy and nervous" tone." Since the plot summary doesn't make any mention of these relationships, I think maybe an example or two would be warranted here, if the source includes any...
- The source doesn't include any, and I couldn't find much about America's race issues (except for the 1967 Detroit riots) in my searches for sources. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Using modern pop music and Greek myths allusions, Eugenides depicts how family characteristics and idiosyncrasies are passed on from one generation to the next. He also employs leitmotifs to depict how chance affects the family's way of life." Again, I think examples here would serve the article well...
- The source doesn't give examples so I'm not sure what to do here. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
"...because the coming-of-age story is revealed to be the incorrect one." I'm not sure I understand this statement.
- I added: "After being nurtured as a woman, Cal must instead learn to become a man" after that statement. Is that better? Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Themes
"...becoming a midwife of her new life." This strikes me as somewhat odd wording. Do you feel this is the best way to phrase this?
- I combined the next sentence with this one: "To become a male, Callie peregrinates across the United States and becoming a midwife of her new life by teaching herself to forget what she has learned as a female." I'm not sure if its the best way to phrase this but the source says "Yet, when Callie realises that Luce's treatment will denude her of her "bulb" and all erotic feeling, she decides to become the midwife of her own second birth. To become Cal, Callie undertakes a brutal journey across America, in which she is forced to unlearn everything she has learnt in the female sphere." Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
"ethnic reconciliation" Again, quote fragments shouldn't be used unless they are attributed to somebody directly. I know this isn't a major point, but it's the correct way to use quotes.
- Corrected. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Can you add some context to what Newsnight is?
Done. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
"According to Sonja Lyubomirsky..." This needs some context too. Who is Sonja Lyubomirsky?
- Context added. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Reception
"Critics were dissatisfied with the scope of the novel." Wouldn't it be more fair and accurate to say "Some critics were..."?
- Revised using your wording. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
"Andrew O'Hehir of Salon.com..." Salon is already wikilinked above. Also, for consistency sake, you should stick to either Salon or Salon.com.
- Unlinked and revised to Salon. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
The last subcategory here is titled " Great American Novel and comparison with The Virgin Suicides". Yet in both cases, you only have one author weighing in on both of these topics (Tim Morris on the Great American Novel, David Gates on the Virgin Suicides comparisons). This section would be so much strong if you could add at least one more writer to each. Can you add this?
- Expanded with several more examples. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'd still perfer if somebody besides Gates was comparing it to The Virgin Suicides but I won't hold up the GAN for it... — Hunter Kahn 14:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I will further expand this section by the end of this week. Cunard (talk) 08:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have expanded the paragraph about The Virgin Suicides to include the opinions of several more reviewers. Cunard (talk) 06:59, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'd still perfer if somebody besides Gates was comparing it to The Virgin Suicides but I won't hold up the GAN for it... — Hunter Kahn 14:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Expanded with several more examples. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Honors and adaptation
You say here it became a best-seller. Do you have any information on how many copies sold or how much money it made?
- I have some information about it appearing on best selling lists in the "Background and publication" section. The copies sold (3 million since 2002) is also in that section. Should they be moved to this section? Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Nah, it's OK. — Hunter Kahn 14:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have some information about it appearing on best selling lists in the "Background and publication" section. The copies sold (3 million since 2002) is also in that section. Should they be moved to this section? Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Wikilinks to The Oprah Winfrey Show and Oprah's Book Club should be added in here.
- Done, though I am unsure they should be there since SMasters (talk · contribs) removed one of the links as overlinking. However, he may be wrong, though, since WP:REPEATLINK permits such links. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it's overlinking, but I suppose you could drop the one for the show if you're concerned about it. — Hunter Kahn 14:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Done, though I am unsure they should be there since SMasters (talk · contribs) removed one of the links as overlinking. However, he may be wrong, though, since WP:REPEATLINK permits such links. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Any idea when the drama series will air? If so, please add this in.
- None of the sources lists a date. I did searches for sources, such as this one, and have been unable to find any articles newer than August 2009 about the proposed drama series. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Misc
Do you think it's worth adding the image of Jeffrey Eugenides into this article somewhere? I'll leave that call to you, since the available picture of him is not o the best quality...
- I'm probably going to leave the photo of Jeffrey Eugenides out since the quality is poor and will not add much to the article. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I'll place this on hold for now. I expect to come back with some more comments after I do a thorough look through the sources, but I'd encourage you to make changes based on my above comments in the meantime. Thanks! — Hunter Kahn 05:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed review! I will address your concerns right now. Cunard (talk) 05:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have revised the article per your suggestions. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- The sources seem to be in order, so I won't hold this up any further. That's a pass. Congrats! — Hunter Kahn 04:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have revised the article per your suggestions. Cunard (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Some general (and hopefully useful) comments
Here, as requested, are some comments on what I believe is a first-class article. I have not read the book yet, so some of my comments may seem nitpicky and naïve. They may help, however, in the final polishing stages before what I assume will be a FAC nomination.
- Lead: It would be interesting to know who wrote The Memoirs of Herculine Barbin, and when was it written.
- I added that The Memoirs of Herculine Barbin were published by Michel Foucalt in 1978 but don't know how to include that Herculine Barbin wrote the memoirs when she was a nineteenth-century convent schoolgirl without making the sentence convoluted. Cunard (talk) 05:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- It's a small point, not worth convoluting the sentence for. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- I added that The Memoirs of Herculine Barbin were published by Michel Foucalt in 1978 but don't know how to include that Herculine Barbin wrote the memoirs when she was a nineteenth-century convent schoolgirl without making the sentence convoluted. Cunard (talk) 05:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Background: What was Eugenides' purpose in travelling to MacDowell Colony in New Hampshire to start writing the book?
- I added that he liked the solitude of MacDowell Colony, which fostered productivity. Cunard (talk) 06:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Plot summary: "After learning that Milton was killed in a car accident" should be "After learning that Milton had been killed in a car accident"
- Reworded. Cunard (talk) 06:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Style:
- "Narrates the story that pre-dates his birth, he..." Something wrong there.
- Reworded. Cunard (talk) 06:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think the phrase "sardonic empathy" should be specifically attributed (to Mark Lawson, presumably)
- Attributed. Cunard (talk) 00:41, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- The phrasing "Stephanides' relationship with the blacks" is jarring. In the UK "the blacks" is unacceptable, either in speech or writing. It may be more acceptable in the US, I don't know, but I would advise rephrasing to avoid giving offence.
- Reworded to "the African Americans". My apologies for using that wording; I did not know it was unacceptable in the UK. I agree with you that it's more acceptable in the US because between 1999 and 2010, a number of books in Google Books use that phrase. Cunard (talk) 06:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- The brief statement "Middlesex also has an ironic tone" does not seem to be followed up; one would expect an illustration.
- There is an illustration after the sentence. The source says, "Callie's grandparents learn how to become Americans in its car factories, streetcars and Greektown cathedrals; her parents fulfill the ironic mandate of immigrants' American-born children by high-tailing it out of their ethnic enclave and making a journey of their own, from hardscrabble city to leafy suburb."
I've reworded the sentence to make the connection clearer. Cunard (talk) 06:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- There is an illustration after the sentence. The source says, "Callie's grandparents learn how to become Americans in its car factories, streetcars and Greektown cathedrals; her parents fulfill the ironic mandate of immigrants' American-born children by high-tailing it out of their ethnic enclave and making a journey of their own, from hardscrabble city to leafy suburb."
- "Cal's parents go on the journey of immigrants' children..." Perhaps this should be "the typical journey"?
- Reworded. Cunard (talk) 06:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Eugenides frequently recounts the events that have already occurred and also foreshadows the upcoming events in the book." I'm not sure I understand what this means. "Frequently recounts the events that have already occurred" suggests he tells the same things over and over again. I leave the rephrasing to you, but is the intended meaning something like: "In recounting past events, Eugenides frequently foreshadows the book's upcoming incidents"
- That is not the intended meaning. The source says, "throughout the first half he interrupts the story to give us portentous glimpses of coming events. Likewise, and also in the manner of the picaresque, the author takes advantage of his loose structure and has the narrator recap in spots what's happened so far, as if, in all the commotion, we might have forgotten."
I've rephrased that paragraph. Is it better? Cunard (talk) 06:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, good. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- That is not the intended meaning. The source says, "throughout the first half he interrupts the story to give us portentous glimpses of coming events. Likewise, and also in the manner of the picaresque, the author takes advantage of his loose structure and has the narrator recap in spots what's happened so far, as if, in all the commotion, we might have forgotten."
- "Narrates the story that pre-dates his birth, he..." Something wrong there.
- Genre
- "effectual": isn't "effective" more common usage?
- Reworded to "effective". Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- The last two sentences of the section both begin: "At the end of the novel..."
- Removed redundant sentence. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- "effectual": isn't "effective" more common usage?
- Rebirth: "immigrant situation"; the word "situation" seems weak perhaps "condition", "circumstances", even "predicament"?
- Changed to "predicament". Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- The American Dream: I have found that the word "whilst", which occurs here and elsewhere in the article, is widely disapproved by wikipedia in favour of "while".
- Changed all instances of "whilst" to "while". Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Opposites: Alkarim Jivani is an arts magazine editor and author of a British lesbian/gay history. He has never, as far as I know, been "of BBC Television's current affairs broadcast Newsnight". The Newsnight programme runs a special arts edition on Fridays, and I imagine Jarvini appeared as a guest on that.
- Reworded both. Nice catch! Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Nature v nurture: "Science may cause people to be restricted by heredity, whilst the true cause of Cal's hermaphroditic condition is due to DNA." Assertive statements such as this need to be attributed, as well as cited.
- Attributed. (It was already cited.) Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Gender identity
- Penultimate paragraph, we have: "Eugenides addresses how difficult it was for humans to devise a "universal classification for sex".[51] He opines that..." Is "he" Eugenides, and is Eugenides opining through a character, or as himelf?
- Second and third sentencs of last para seem to be saying the same thing.
- Removed redundant sentence. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- In the sentence beginning "Holmes believes that..." I am unsure about the use of "renounces". Perhaps "denies", "undermines" or similar. What does Holmes actually say?
- Holmes says "denies". I've replaced "renounces" with "denies" and included "denies" inside the quotation. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Greek mythical allusions: "solely her grandmother" - I think "only" rather than "solely"
- Reworded. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Incest
- "Milton and Tessie, second cousins, are conceived during the same night, hinting to the incest of Desdemona and Lefty." Why does these concurrent conceptions hint to the incest?
- The source says, "Milton is conceived on the same night as Tessie – another allusion to the incestuous twinning between Lefty and Desdemona", but doesn't explain further why this hints to the incest. I have my own interpretation of why it hints to the incest but am barred from adding it because it would be original research. What should I do; should I remove this sentence since it isn't clear enough? Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- If the sentence was challenged at FAC, do you think you could defend it? If so, fine, if not, let it go. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think I could challenge it at FAC, so I'll leave it in. Cunard (talk) 00:41, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- If the sentence was challenged at FAC, do you think you could defend it? If so, fine, if not, let it go. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- The source says, "Milton is conceived on the same night as Tessie – another allusion to the incestuous twinning between Lefty and Desdemona", but doesn't explain further why this hints to the incest. I have my own interpretation of why it hints to the incest but am barred from adding it because it would be original research. What should I do; should I remove this sentence since it isn't clear enough? Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Whose phrase is "puissant taboo"? If it is necessary to use this, rather than "powerful taboo", it should be in quotes and attributed.
- Done. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Making love "through a clarinet" evokes some strange images! Mayne "using a clarinet which..."
- Nice catch! Reworded. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- "Milton and Tessie, second cousins, are conceived during the same night, hinting to the incest of Desdemona and Lefty." Why does these concurrent conceptions hint to the incest?
- Reception - Scope:
- Mendelsohn should be introduced at first rather than second mention.
- Done. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Probably better to use "A minus" than "A-" which doesn't show up well.
- Done. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Mendelsohn should be introduced at first rather than second mention.
- Detroit: About 70 per cent of this short section is direct quotation. Perhaps some of this could be rendered into paraphrase?
- I removed Professor Morris's quote, which consisted of most of the direct quoation in the article. There are two short quotes remaining. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Great American Novel: Is Professor Morris's remark really worth a verbatim quote (he merely says what you've just said in the previous sentence.)
- Removed Professor Morris's quote and added other information from him. I can make this short section longer with this article from The Eagle (a student newspaper published by American University); however, I'm not certain it's reliable enough. The article is well-written and has an editorial staff, so I believe that it's likely reliable. Before I use this source again (I already used it in "The Great American Dream" section), I would like your opinion about this. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- The Eagle article is well-written but it does not have much gravitas; I'm not sure that its writer's view that "this may be the Great American Novel" is of sufficient weight to be included here. I would let the section stand. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Good points. I won't add anything to this section from The Eagle article. Cunard (talk) 00:41, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- The Eagle article is well-written but it does not have much gravitas; I'm not sure that its writer's view that "this may be the Great American Novel" is of sufficient weight to be included here. I would let the section stand. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Removed Professor Morris's quote and added other information from him. I can make this short section longer with this article from The Eagle (a student newspaper published by American University); however, I'm not certain it's reliable enough. The article is well-written and has an editorial staff, so I believe that it's likely reliable. Before I use this source again (I already used it in "The Great American Dream" section), I would like your opinion about this. Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Honors etc: again, Alkarim Jivani of Newsnight ?
I hope you find these comments helpful. I will watch this article's progress with much interest. Brianboulton (talk) 21:40, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for the valuable critique of the article. I'll address your concerns over the next couple of days. Cunard (talk) 05:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've finished addressing your insightful comments, which have allowed me to greatly refine the article. While researching for more information to address your concerns, I found another source added a new subsection to the "Themes" section; it is titled "Middlesex (novel)#Race relations". Would you take a look at it please? Thanks! Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have looked at the new section, which I think adds something of importance. Two points: would "confirming" be better than "finishing" (the racial stereotype)? Secondly, in the final paragraph whose views are being expressed (e.g. "The novel depicts African-American poverty but never illustrates its causes" etc.) It is important to detach these assertions from the editorial voice. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've finished addressing your insightful comments, which have allowed me to greatly refine the article. While researching for more information to address your concerns, I found another source added a new subsection to the "Themes" section; it is titled "Middlesex (novel)#Race relations". Would you take a look at it please? Thanks! Cunard (talk) 07:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that the article is in generally excellent shape. Please let me know when you send it FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 10:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- I will certainly notify you when I send this to FAC. Thanks for your help! Cunard (talk) 00:41, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Comments from Awadewit
In general, there is a lot of good material here, but I think there are some organizational kinks to work out and perhaps some sourcing. I would suggest obtaining a copyeditor after you work on these larger issues, someone who can go over each and every sentence before FAC.
- I noticed that there are quite a few articles that have "Middlesex" as a keyword in the MLA database that are not used as sources for this article. Any reason those aren't used?
- I don't think my library has access to the MLA database, though it does have access to http://search.ebscohost.com/ (Literary Reference Center), where I have found many useful sources. I will be incorporating them into the article. Cunard (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I listed the MLA citations below. Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you! A number of the citations can be accessed via the Literary Reference Center database, though a few are not there. Cunard (talk) 21:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- "The incidents that occur to Cal's..." - This paragraph should be in a section about the setting.
- I have begun a "Setting" section and have moved this paragraph there. Cunard (talk) 07:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have completed the "Setting" section. Cunard (talk) 22:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- "The novel's title..." - This paragraph is marooned - is there a better place to put it?
- I have moved this to the third paragraph of "Plot" section. Cunard (talk) 22:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- About half of Middlesex details incidents prior to Callie's birth. - This sentence doesn't fit in the paragraph in which it is placed - it is about a different topic.
- I have moved this to the first paragraph of the "Plot" section . Cunard (talk) 22:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- You might consider putting the sales information from the paragraph beginning "The book was published on..." in the "Reception" section.
- If I moved the sales information to the "Reception" section, wouldn't the sentence about the book being published by Bloomsberry be orphaned?
The section title is "Background and publication", and I can't think of any other publication information to include there. Cunard (talk) 07:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I would combine the Bloomsbury sentence with the end of the second paragraph, where it already says that the novel was published. Awadewit (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Done. I've also moved the sales information to the "Reception" section. Cunard (talk) 07:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- If I moved the sales information to the "Reception" section, wouldn't the sentence about the book being published by Bloomsberry be orphaned?
- The first paragraph of the "Autobiographical elements" feels a bit listy, but I don't know if you can avoid that. I think that you have paragraphs later that explain how the autobiographical elements function in the work. Is there any more material on this that you could add, perhaps from reviews?
- I've checked the articles on Google and don't think there is any more that could be added. Is there any way that I could make it seem less listy? Cunard (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I would suggest doing a copyedit for wordiness. For example, "According to Mark Lawson of The Guardian, the narrator's tone is considered to be "sardonic empathy".[36] Critics have characterized the beginning of the novel about Lefty and Desdemona as having a comedic element" could be "According to Mark Lawson of The Guardian, the narrator's tone is "sardonic[ally] empath[etic]" and other critics have characterized the beginning of the novel as comic."
- Condensed per your suggestion. Gingsengbomb, will you copyedit this page for wordiness? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 23:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Identity" is mentioned several times in the "Themes" section - should it have its own subsection? Could it combined with "Opposites" somehow?
- Yes and yes. I've expanded the "Themes" section with an article from Critique (journal) and renamed the section to "Ethnic identity". Cunard (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- The "Race relations" section seems to focus too much on plot to me, rather than on the nuanced thematic meaning of that plot.
- The content in this section is all that I have found about race relations so far, but I hope that the sources in the Literary Reference database will have some more information about this. Cunard (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- The examples in the "Themes" section seem to be taken from the novel itself. Are these examples you have chosen yourself? If so, that could be construed as original research. It is best to take examples that critics and reviewers have used. I usually quote examples directly from the secondary sources - that way there is no confusion over who came up with the example.
- No, all of the examples I used were provided by the critics and reviewers. For example:
Citations 63 and 66 are to pages in the novel, while citation 65 is to a book by Angela Pattatucci Aragon. Aragon's analysis of the novel's themes included the quotes from the novel (citations 63 and 66). I prefer using quotes from the novel to quotes from the secondary source because the prose of the novel is generally clearer and better written. The wording of the secondary source is less able to convey the emotion and atmosphere of each scene. Is there another way I can make it clearer that the examples/quotes are pulled from the secondary source? Cunard (talk) 02:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)While his female classmates are turned off by the blood in The Iliad, Cal is "thrilled to [read about] the stabbings and beheadings, the gouging out of eyes, the juicy eviscerations".[65] Cal ponders his gender identity and how males and females associate with each other,[63] reflecting, "Did I see through the male tricks because I was destined to scheme that way myself? Or do girls see through the tricks, too, and just pretend not to notice?"[66]
- Could you provide a citation to the secondary source in the same note? So, the citations to Middlesex will always contain the secondary source as well as the primary? Just having both might help. Awadewit (talk) 06:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I will work on doing that. Cunard (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Done. Cunard (talk) 07:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, all of the examples I used were provided by the critics and reviewers. For example:
- I'm wondering if the "Greek mythical allusions" section might be better placed in the "Style" section? What do you think? Also, the "Allusions" section itself is a bit of a hodge-podge. It would be nice if it flowed a bit better - it feels like a list right now. Perhaps there could be paragraphs about the narrator, the lover, etc.?
- Yes, the "Greek mythical allusions" section is more suitable in the "Style" section, so I've moved it. I don't think there could be a paragraph about the lover because there are few sources that discuss the Obscure Object and Sapphic love. Cunard (talk) 23:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- I feel that the subsections of the "Reception" section were not very effective, particularly as they will be quite ephemeral. I would reduce some of the material in this section and condense it to four or so paragraphs.
- Why will they be ephemeral? I thought that breaking them into subsections would highlight the key topics that the reviewers addressed. Cunard (talk) 07:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- The key topics that reviewers highlight tends to change much more than, say, themes. So, for example, I would expect the thematic categories to remain rather static, even if critics have changing views on those themes. The topics that reviewers choose to highlight will change over time, however. To get a sense of this, simply read Reception history of Jane Austen. In general, I felt that the "Reception" section was a bit choppy and I think that five years from now, it will be more difficult to update it with these sections in place, but ultimately the choice for how to structure it is yours. Awadewit (talk) 16:56, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- You've raised some good points about this so I have removed the subsections. I've combined two paragraphs so that there are now five paragraphs in the "Critical reception" section. I don't know what to condense since I'm too close to the material. Do you have any ideas, or is the "Critical reception" section at an acceptable length? Cunard (talk) 07:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Remind the reader why this book is being compared to The Virgin Suicides (I didn't know he wrote that, too, so initially I was quite confused).
- The lead-in sentence is: "David Gates of Newsweek contrasted Eugenides' debut novel, The Virgin Suicides with Middlesex". I think this is sufficient in establishing the connection, but is there any way I can make it clearer? Cunard (talk) 02:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
- Right, but I had forgotten that by the time I got to the reception section (especially since I read the article over several days). You might also consider that not everyone reads very carefully. Some people skim and some readers skip to later sections. A reminder is not always unnecessary repetition. Awadewit (talk) 06:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand. The sentence I quoted above is the first sentence of Middlesex (novel)#Comparison with The Virgin Suicides. Cunard (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, sorry. One shouldn't edit when tired! Awadewit (talk) 16:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- No worries. I'm grateful for your pointers which have been helpful even when you're tired. Cunard (talk) 06:37, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Can you find any sales figures for the book, perhaps through Publisher's Weekly?
- Is there an audio book version?
- Yes. This is verified by a Publisher's Weekly article that is reprinted by Barnes and Noble (it can be found by clicking on the "Editorial Reviews" tab). I cannot find a copy of the article on Publisher's Weekly's website so am unsure of how to cite this. Cunard (talk) 08:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Here is the citation information for the PW review: Publishers Weekly; 12/2/2002, Vol. 249 Issue 48, p21, 2p. Awadewit (talk) 17:08, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the citation information. I've added the audiobook information to the "Honors and adaptation" section. Do you have any information about the title and author of the review? Cunard (talk) 06:37, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- That's all that was available. Awadewit (talk) 04:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Stephanides' relationship with the African Americans - This sentence struck me as sounding bad. Perhaps "with the African American characters"? Could we name them so that they are defined exclusively through their race? I think that is the thing that is bothering me here.
- Reworded per your suggestion. If I named the African American characters (Stephanides' relationship with the African Americans characters, such as Marius Grimes), wouldn't that be synthesis? Cunard (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- This is not synthesis in the sense of advocating a new position - there is no problem with doing this. Awadewit (talk) 04:31, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oops, my mistake. I've made the change. Cunard (talk) 21:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I hope this is helpful! Awadewit (talk) 21:12, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for the incisive comments. I will work on them over the next couple of weeks. Cunard (talk) 01:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
MLA citations
Chu, Patricia E. "D(NA) Coding the Ethnic: Jeffrey Eugenides's Middlesex." Novel: A Forum on Fiction 42.2 (2009): 278-283. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Dalling, Graham. "Enfield in the Time of Charles Lamb." Charles Lamb Bulletin 34.(1981): 25-34. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Breger, Claudia. "Gen-erativkrafte: Poesie und Wissenschaft in Jeffrey Eugenides' Middlesex." Engineering Life: Narrationen vom Menschen in Biomedizin, Kultur und Literatur. 201-217. Berlin, Germany: Kulturverlag Kadmos, 2008. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Koch-Rein, Anne. "Intersexuality-In the 'I' of the Norm? Queer Field Notes from Eugenides' Middlesex." Quer durch die Geisteswissenschaften: Perspektiven der Queer Theory. 238-252. Berlin, Germany: Querverlag, 2005. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Davros, Michael G. "Loss and Transformation on the Road in Jeffrey Eugenides's Middlesex and Don DeLillo's Underworld." The Image of the Road in Literature, Media, and Society. 148-153. Pueblo, CO: Society for the Interdisciplinary Study of Social Imagery, Colorado State University-Pueblo, 2005. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Kehlmann, Daniel. "Narrative Heat." PEN America: A Journal for Writers and Readers 9.(2008): 88-96. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Collado-Rodriguez, Francisco. "Of Self and Country: U.S. Politics, Cultural Hybridity, and Ambivalent Identity in Jeffrey Eugenides's Middlesex." International Fiction Review 33.1-2 (2006): 71-83. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Sifuentes, Zachary. "Strange Anatomy, Strange Sexuality: The Queer Body in Jeffrey Eugenides' Middlesex." Straight Writ Queer: Non-Normative Expressions of Heterosexuality in Literature. 145-157. Jefferson, NC: McFarland, 2006. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Consonni, Stefania. "'Stuck in the Middle with Eu': Genetica e letteratura in Middlesex." Nuova Corrente: Rivista di Letteratura 54.139 (2007): 145-171. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Ciocoi-Pop, Ana-Blanca. "Suicide as Affirmation and Gender as a Conscious Choice: The Deconstruction of Identity in Jeffrey Eugenides' Major Novels." American, British, and Canadian Studies 10.(2008): 80-90. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Eugenides, Jeffrey. "The Omens." Brick 73.(2004): 127-129. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Shostak, Debra. "'Theory Uncompromised by Practicality': Hybridity in Jeffrey Eugenides' Middlesex." Contemporary Literature 49.3 (2008): 383-412. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Sielke, Sabine. "Translation and Transdisciplinarity: Mapping Contact Zones between Literary and Scientific Practice." Cultures of Translation. 149-173. Newcastle upon Tyne, England: Cambridge Scholars, 2008. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Sykes, John D., Jr. "Two Natures: Chalcedon and Coming-of-Age in O'Connor's 'A Temple of the Holy Ghost'." Flannery O'Connor Review 5.(2007): 89-98. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Womack, Kenneth, and Amy Mallory-Kani. "'Why Don't You Just Leave It Up to Nature?': An Adaptionist Reading of the Novels of Jeffrey Eugenides." Mosaic: A Journal for the Interdisciplinary Study of Literature 40.3 (2007): 157-173. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.
Lee, Merton. "Why Jeffrey Eugenides' Middlesex Is So Inoffensive." Critique: Studies in Contemporary Fiction 51.1 (2010): 32-46. MLA International Bibliography. EBSCO. Web. 25 May 2010.