Talk:Multirole combat aircraft

Other uses for "multirole"

The term "multirole" is not just limited to combat aircraft. A C-130, for instance, is also a multirole aircraft. Askari Mark (Talk) 18:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

JAS Gripen

I'd like the Gripen to be added to Europe. 217.210.224.224 22:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Done ... but added to Sweden. Askari Mark (Talk) 14:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Tornado not multirole?

Should the tornado really be in the list? I know its name included "multi-role", but actually any given variant was either a strike aircraft or an interceptor (none were both). If it is included then should other planes eg Saab Viggen? F-15? MiG-23? All of these have both ground attack and interceptor/fighter varients. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.155.6.122 (talk) 16:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Way too many planes are as multirole as the tornado. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.221.202 (talk) 12:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

This was solved on various user talk pages, bad place to solve yes but still, the Tornado is where the term came from. G. R. Allison (talk) 16:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Show me please

Name one modern jet fighter than cannot drop bombs. Even the Eurofighter and the Raptor have been jury rigged with minimal ground attack capabilities. It's getting fairly obvious that multirole fighter should simply redirect to plain old ordinary jet fighter as nothing is just in one category or the other. And do the same with strike fighter. Hcobb (talk) 00:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The difference has alway been how accurate those dropped bombs will be. In the past, jet arcraft could not carry the avionics and other equipment for both the air-to-air and air-to-ground mission. WHen air-to-air fighters were replaced by more modern fighters, or were not effective from the beginning, they became fighter bombers, but were never very accurate, not compared with the dedicated attack aircraft of the time, but were none the less useful. Modern avioncs, especially from the F/A-18 on, has enabled one aircraft to do both missions without major changes between missions, and often now on the ssame missions (self-escorting). Does the article need a rewrite? Yes, but it can be useful. - BilCat (talk) 01:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The part about Strike Fighters being different from Multirole Aircraft is odd. What makes an f16 multirole and not the f15E? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AThousandYoung (talk • contribs) 06:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the above comment. The F-15E Strike Eagle article says in the very first sentence that it is an all-weather "multirole fighter". So why is it not included here? Rocketmaniac ^RT 15:15, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Stub?

Why is this article still considered a "stub"? It seems to be fairly in-depth. It has a good beginning, the history of the term and nice examples. Rocketmaniac ^RT 15:19, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Please restubbify it. Turn it into a one paragraph category page which any aircraft called a "Multirole combat aircraft" by a RS is welcome to join. Hcobb (talk) 15:06, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Promotion of Rafale, you say ?

Does your page make promotion of Sukhoi, or Mig, or chinese aircraft ? or simply Tornado, Typhoon, F-35...

To MilborneOne and Ahunt: I simply don't recognise the supposed WP philosophy in your attitude, while MilborneOne is WP administrator and Ahunt is reviewer. If a product (here aircraft) has some qualities noother aircraft has, the simple naming of these qualities is surely seen by the competitors as promotion... but any impartial observator would easily see the difference.

In our situation, the observator was looking at Libya operations, reading the reports, where this aircraft has obviously prooved these qualities, much more than other aircraft, and especially, from Day One (before any other aircraft or cruise missile or UAV), with these Multirole and Swingrole qualitiés... and there are journalists - not french - who have signed papers on that list of facts and evidences !

How possibly can you give your 'validation' to a page on multirole aircraft,

• which simply doesn't cite once this Rafale, which is obviously the most multirole operational aircraft in the world, ever (and with carrier-borne, and with an unbeattable commonality between Marine B, C and M) ?
• where the only cited aircraft are those where UK is involved, more (Typhoon and F-35) or less (Gripen) ?!! It's to such a degree that I just can't believe my eyes ! How do you name this attitude ? POV, no ??? It's so much obvious that any honnest person would tell you manifest a partial attitude
• and, you like it or not, the fact is that aircraft is omnirole (from latine, omni, for all, not only multi, for several), since it can do everything, even deterrence... and these roles are all available potentially at any moment (except that it can't of course carry douzens of missiles all together... ;-) ).

And there are citations, links, references... I am really surprised, and disappointed, I frankly didn't expect these facts, to such a degree, with WP ! AirCraft (talk) 00:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, I think I can see where they are coming from; it was just too much coverage upon one aircraft - it looked to me like canvassing, that the Rafale was being pushed forward to dominate various discussions, and awarded a subjective superiority on a single editor's personal preference. Some of that superiority is deserved, parts are cited to sources as a by-the-by, we can't always take Dassault's advertising at face-value, such as the superiority of its multi-role abilities - in practice the cockpit arrangement doesn't sound dramatically different to the F/A-18's, and naturally the salesman is going to drum up his product, including throwing around fancy latin words to obfiscate the issue. We honestly shouldn't make much of a deal out of the 'difference' between Omni-role and Multirole - you may feel than Omni-role implies/is a whole new level of design, I feel it's just a different word for the same thing from the marketing department; its superior value isn't objectively superior, if that can be understood - I personally would want more than just a "rose by any other name"). I do believe there should be some Rafale coverage - but it doesn't need any more coverage than what other aircraft get, else it is WP:UNDUE. It makes little sense to bang on about every vagary of the Rafale, yet not give other aircraft a similar amount of coverage and attention - I remember back in the 1980s, the Hornet's ability toswitch between fighter-attack was cutting edge, and these articles are supposed to reach back with historical perspective, not just that of the current day and the current king (whomever you feel that king to be). Also, some of the wording was over-complimentry, in my opinion, a more neutral stance not only serves the plane more fairly, but would discourage the opinion that it is a promotional peice/unfairly in favour of one agenda. I can accept any editor having a favourite aircraft, but we all have to walk a line between neutrally adding detail and placing favouritism into an article. Kyteto (talk) 12:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Kyteto: I can understand, even if I dont agree completely (and I'll reply below). I agree with AirCraft, and there is another problem with these deletions by MilborneOne and Ahunt:

• the resulting page is POV also because ther is no "Cost vs Benefit" discussion anymore, while the precedent page included this discussion, following the contrib of Hcobb.
• and coincidence ? (!!), the resulting page includes some text from Lauren Simon, guess about Who or What...
  • about BAE (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Multirole_combat_aircraft&oldid=467330725)
  • and EF !! : "Eurofighter Typhoon, Mission configuration, Swing Role" (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Multirole_combat_aircraft&oldid=467337289)... — Preceding unsigned comment added by VHiTek (talk • contribs) 14:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Kyteto: I have some difficulties understanding some words or expressions you use (by-the-by, obfiscate) sorry, but I think I get the general idea..

• Too much coverage (Rafale) ? I understand, but my english is not so good, and it's easier for me to let the citation. It's very easy for them to delete (one clic), it's very difficult for me (and probably others) to build arguments in that language (which has become international, so no other way). And for the moment, the coverage had been reduced to only 2 aircraft (one - F-35 - not operational, and EF, with no real air-to-ground capacities before 2018) + some words on Tornado (not an excellent example of multirole) + a picture of Gripen (multirole, swing role) => the examples have disappeared, the table also, which helped to have an idea of what aircraft do what...
• we can't always take Dassault's advertising at face-value. Yes, that's why) citations were useful (field, Libya, and form journalists) which were scrapped... And there was a discussion about the costs, and the benefits, which also disappeared... Crucial point: multirole capacities might be a bad idea, so it's important to see if it's really a good idea ! (but for that, different points of vue are necessary ! and not the fast but not constructive deletion click...  ;-) )
• cockpit arrangement not very different to the F/A-18 ? I don't know, but Spectra self protection suite, OSF, data fusion, etc. all that makes a hudge difference if a pilot was assigned different tasks in the same sortie, and if he is facing airborne and ground threats (see below)
• Fancy latin words ? frankly it's just a way to make the difference with multirole, which seems difficult to present: so many multirole aircraft, with so many differences fonctionnally. The difference is :1. all roles, 2. swing roles 3. ability to simultaneously carry out different roles (see the 1st paragraph -in omnirole- which was deleted, on that very important point) So it's not just a different word for the same something: "the Rafale's weapon system can simultaneously deal with airborne and ground threats", which makes a hudge difference between a dead pilot or a pilot alive !! VHiTek (talk) 15:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

If this is to be a concept article then we can have two short sections. The first being the attributes of a hypothetical generic multirole fighter, and the second being a list of them. The first section will name no fighters and the second section will name no attributes. If the readers are interested in the attributes of the listed aircraft then they can click through. (This really needs to be a category page...) Hcobb (talk) 12:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Hcobb: it could be seen as a very interesting idea, if the 'attributes' were not linked to "Multirole" aspects, but it is note the case, the following points (for Rafale) are directly linked to MULTIROLE: 1. Two major roles simultaneously, 2. Several roles in the same sortie (swing role), 3. Survivability thanks to Spectra self-protection suite, data fusion, osf, (simultaneous roles) 4. pilot was not overloaded (linked to all this). And it's interesting to see how these points, or other points (linked to Multirole capabilities), are covered in other aircraft. So comments on other aircraft are (also) welcome ! VHiTek (talk) 16:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion, for the moment, according to me: 1. I'll restore some parts, which were deleted. And restore the organization: Multirole, Swingrole, Omnirole, since it's a gradation in multirole capabilities. 1bis. One question could be "Omnirole" =paragraph, or =subparagraph of Swingrole ? In the latter case, this paragraph would become too big, that's why I'll let it like it was. 2. I'll rewrite, in bad english, the paragraph Omnirole, in order to shorten (a bit) it; but short is not so easy, because it's complex notions, and because examples are often the best mean to understand. VHiTek (talk) 16:28, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with VHiTek, and I've completed the multirole and swingrole paragraphs with examples. I still dont understand why the deleted table could be considered as OR. And other examples (swingrole benefits for example), welcomed !AirCraft (talk) 19:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)