Talk:Homeopathy

To Do List

add explanation of healing crisis in the context of homeopathy, and how this relates to how homeopathy is claimed to work, including both the homeopathic explanation, and the conventional medical critique. add a broad-brush description of the work of Constantine Hering and James Tyler Kent and how it differs from Hahnemann, keeping the depth of coverage appropriate for a summary article. Kent is noted for "the well-known Kent repertory, on which virtually all modern practise of homeopathy is based" homeopathic hospitals in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were attended by the rich and powerful as the best locations where one could get better. They were relatively clean and calm institutions that had a better cure rate than many of the mainstream clinics of the day. Of course, this was due to the fact that most mainstream hospitals of the day were filthy places where one was more likely to die of an infection rather than be cured. In this, homeopaths of that era were closer to the do no harm dictum of the Hipocratic Oath than many of their contemporaries and, indeed, many practices perfected in homeopathic hospitals are still employed today as best practices for palliative care. The fact that they didn't use the "heroic" measures in common use, such as bloodletting, powerful drugs like arsenic, strychnine, mercury, belladonna, etc. meant that more patients survived, since these drugs often caused more deaths. In many cases doing what amounted to nothing, i.e. placebo homeopathic treatment, was better than doing something, i.e. overkill with poisons, thus letting the body's own recuperative powers do the healing, which for many ordinary ailments is just fine.

Edit request on 18 March 2012

I request that the line "(e)ach dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." be changed to "According to Hahnemann, each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the "medicinal power"." using the reference Hahnemann S (1833), The Organon of the Healing Art (5th ed.), aphorisms 270, ISBN 087983228. My reasons for the change are as follows: 1. The original sentence is not referenced by a primary source 2. The original sentence is not referenced by a peer reviewed journal 3. The original sentence does not identify who has made the "assumption" 4. The original sentence uses the term "effectiveness" which is unreferenced and is ambiguous The new edited sentence: 1. Is referenced by a historical primary source which is referenced elsewhere in the page 2. Identifies who has made the "assumption" 3. Removes the term "effectiveness" which is unreferenced and is ambiguous 4. Has been suggested to make for a stronger and more accurate entry on this topic page In the spirit of providing information which is referenced to reliable sources (ie. historical primary sources, peer reviewed journals), I believe this change more accurately reflects the meaning of a statement as it pertains to changes that may occur when a homeopathic substance is prepared. Dizzybee (talk) 15:00, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

• Deny - This seems to be essentially identical to the request Talk:Homeopathy#Edit_request_on_17_March_2012 which was already marked as answered. While I agree that the reference is a little weak, Wikipedia doesn't require references for facts that are "unlikely to be disputed". When we say "2+2=4" or "The sky is blue" - we don't need references. The idea of successive dilution and succussion making the treatment more potent is at the core of what homeopathy is...that's essentially all it is - I can't imagine anyone denying it. Since the fact isn't in any way controversial, it doesn't need a super-solid reference. There are any number of places where this core belief of homeopathists is stated to be the case...and we don't need peer reviewed journals to say that because nobody denies that they make this claim. What would require solid referencing would be any statement that dilution and succussion actually does improve efficacy...but that's not what our article says. Removing this statement removes the heart of the explanation of what homeopathy is. We need to get across the message that homeopathists believe this - or else we don't have much of an article. Hence, I strongly disagree with this change - and would revert it on sight. SteveBaker (talk) 16:28, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

•  Not done: It actually does have a reference (number 9). Per policy, we should avoid ascribing uncontested views to only a single opinion. AFAIK, every homeopath ascribes to the view that higher dilutions result in higher 'effectiveness', so we should not attribute it to the sole opinion of Hahnemann. Thanks for the suggestion, though! If you know of any sources which say that some branch of homeopathy doesn't believe that, feel free to present them and we may be able to modify the statement accordingly. All the best,   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:44, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you Jess for the sober reply. I have 3 points to make. Firstly, I ask that if you use the term dilution when referring to homeopathic preparations that you also include the term succussion, or use a more general term such as "homeopathic preparation". Secondly, when entering the search term "homeopathic pharmacy" into my google search engine, the first item was from the RiteCare pharmacy website (http://www.ritecare.com/homeopathic/guide_potency.asp)The second sentence reads as follows: "Many, new to homeopathy, mistake potency or dilution with strength. There is actually no correlation between potency and the strength of a homeopathic medicine. A homeopathic medicine at 30C potency is not stronger than the same medicine at 6C or 3C. The difference is in their action. While a 6C potency is better suited for a local symptom, a 30C or higher potency is more appropriate for general conditions such as allergy, stress or sleep disorders." I quote this not to use this as a reference but rather to point out that opinion is very much divided on the view that each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness. Thirdly, I will set to work (as you encouraged) on finding sources which reflect the diversity of opinion on the subject. Kind regardsDizzybee (talk) 18:04, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

  That's a very interesting point. Many thanks for the link - having references clearly helps us here. Clearly though, even the Rite Care folks must concede that some degree of dilution is required to turn something that CAUSES an adverse symptom into one that CURES that very same symptom. I'd be happy to consider rephrasing this if we can find reliable sources for each of the contrary viewpoints. The RiteCare pharmacy link is (IMHO) enough to support a statement to the effect that some homeopathists have different beliefs - but I think I'd want to see something stronger to state that homeopathists in general subscribe to the "lower dilution for local conditions, higher dilution for general conditions" theory of homeopathy. This new diagnostic twist would make for an interesting new section in the article. SteveBaker (talk) 14:41, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

  Thank you all for the comments. I am trying to figure out what strikes me as wrong with the statement and how we can improve on this sentence to reflect something that is more accurate either to what was historically stated or to what is current clinical practice. If I were to read the sentence as it is, I would assume that homeopaths would be using the most diluted and succussed substances they could get their hands on in order to maximize effectiveness. That simply is not the case. As a CAM practitioner who uses homeopathy, there are plenty of instances where I would use “lower” potencies to maximize effectiveness. These clinical decisions are based many factors related to the clinical experience. I will refer to 3 studies published in peer reviewed journals to illustrate that homeopaths do not think that increased effectiveness is achieved by additional dilution and succusion. In Jutte R, Riley D. A review of the use and role of low potencies in homeopathy. Complementary Therapies in Medicine (2005) 13, 291—296, the authors performed a historical overview of the ideas around potency selection. Their summary is as follows:

“Common statements on potency selection in homeopathic literature High potencies preferable if the emphasis of the symptoms is psychological Low potencies if focus of symptoms is physical/organic, at least at the beginning of treatment High potencies can/should be repeated less frequently, low potencies can be repeated more frequently Low potencies are often used in acute cases. Due to the predominance of certain common, physical symptoms in acute cases (rather than a fully developed individual symptomatology), it is often wiser to prescribe in low potencies. Initial frequent administration of a low potency can also provide the organism with the added stimulation required in acute diseases Low potencies are often used in conjunction with patients on conventional medications The use of constitutional medicines in low potencies can be used to facilitate the response to the same remedy in a higher potency. In line with this, a low potency is often prescribed in tandem with a high potency in chronic cases” As you will note, the choice of an effective potency is based on given clinical situations and not on giving a high potency whenever possible. In Klein-Laansma C.T. et al. Semi-standardised homeopathic treatment of premenstrual syndrome with a limited number of medicines: Feasibility study. Homeopathy (July 2010), 99 (3), pg. 192-204, they monitored the potency selection in a controlled analysis and found the following: “Potencies and doses The following potencies were used: D12, Q2, Q6, C30, 30K, 200K, MK, frequencies varying from daily (D12 and some X-potencies) to once every week (C30, 30K) or once or twice per month (MK and 200K).” As you can see, in a controlled clinical situation, remedy potency selection was not uniformly high to attain effectiveness but rather reflected a broad range of potency choice based on a clinicians approach to the condition. Finally, in Deroukakis M. Selection of potencies by medical and non-medical homeopaths: a survey. Homeopathy (July 2002), 91 (3), pg. 150-155, his survey revealed a broad range of situations where either high or low potencies would achieve the desired effectiveness. He summarizes: “High potencies are more often used when mental symptoms are striking. High potencies are not reserved for chronic diseases and similarly, low potencies are not reserved for acute diseases. High potencies are used in acute situations. In ‘sluggish constitutions’, a low potency is thought to be of greater use as it matches the patient’s vital force. High potencies should be repeated less often than low potencies. High potencies are administered if the ‘picture’ is clear.” There are other examples expressing similar views. I would like to know how we should move forward to provide a more accurate expression for the Wikipedia page. Dizzybee (talk) 14:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

• Hold on a minute here...that exact same web site ( http://www.ritecare.com/homeopathic/guide_general.asp - in the section "How are Homeopathic Medicines Prepared?") says: "In Homeopathy, the higher the dilution level, the more deeply the remedy acts. For this reason the higher potencies (the more diluted medicines) are generally dispensed by pharmacies or licensed health care professionals. The lower potencies 6X, 12X, 6C, 12C and 30C are the potencies most commonly found in retail and health food stores." - this totally contradicts what they said in your quote! If the distinction between lower and higher dilutions is the applicability to more or less "local" conditions - then why are the more diluted ones only available to pharmacies and licensed professionals? Clearly they believe that the higher dilutions are more potent and therefore have to be more carefully dispensed. This stuff is such bullshit - even a single company can't keep their story straight!

  SteveBaker (talk) 15:01, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

• Yes quite funny about this apparent contradiction. It seems they are twisting into a pretzel trying to reconcile the various threads of homeopathic thought and theory. Admittedly this is a huge problem with homeopathy - when you don't understand the mechanism of action (if any), you are left with theoretical conjecture and/or individual observations which are subject to bias. The RiteAID quote hypothesizes that higher potencies act more "deeply" which is not necessarily an issue of effectiveness depending on the clinical situation. I think the latter references I listed outline with slightly less flaky language the situations where the number of succusions and dilutions intersect with effectiveness. Dizzybee (talk) 15:59, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I'd phrase that differently - when there isn't any mechanism of action, you can make up any random nonsense you like about how you're going to prescribe it and what you claim it'll treat. THAT's why there is no consistency. If there was evidence behind the claims then everyone would be able to rely on that evidence in knowing how to prescribe. But when people are lying about what their product can do - with full knowledge that it's been proven to do nothing at all - then any set of lies is as good as any other. But the question here is what should we write? SteveBaker (talk) 19:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Simply put, I'd leave it as-is. The majority of homeopaths adhere to the "more dilutions == more efficacy" idea. It's the fringe of this fringe that says otherwise. WP:WEIGHT would indicate leaving that out. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:57, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the links Dizzybee. Perhaps something like this would work: "Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness, or change the area affected." We could obviously tweak the wording as appropriate. However, we'd first have to show that the view was a significant view (not minority or fringe) before incorporating it to that degree. Alternatively, we need to show that it is at least a minority view to incorporate it elsewhere in the body (to a lesser degree). WP:WEIGHT says that we should be able to name prominent adherents in order to establish the latter. Are there notable members of the homeopathy community which would stand behind this view of dilution and succussion? If so, we could mention this in the body as "[John Smith] says that dilution and succussion is capable of changing the locality of the remedy, rather than increasing its effectiveness as is commonly claimed." What would be ideal, here, is a standard homeopathy text which mentions the view and its adoption. Maybe google scholar could turn something up.   — Jess· Δ♥ 08:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I too have a problem with the line "Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." The line should simply be removed in my opinion. Professional homeopaths make no such assumptions, otherwise all but the highest potencies of remedies would have been eliminated decades ago. The term "effectiveness" is inaccurate. Effectiveness is quality of results, which is dependent as much on proper choice of remedy as is its potency. The only thing that can be positively asserted in any similar statement would be that 'each dilution followed by succussion ... increases the measure of a remedy's potency.' Kannon McAfee (talk) 09:04, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate the issues of WP:WEIGHT and that we should attempt to uncover what the homeopathic community thinks on this issue. I have listed a few sources from peer reviewed sources which contradict the statement that "(e)ach dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." I think that they are solid sources. There are other sources in the homeopathic community which also seem to contradict the statement. George Vithoulkas, one of the "subsequent proponents" on the Wikipedia homeopathy page outlines his understanding of the use of potency here: http://www.vithoulkas.com/en/books-study/books-of-gv/2086.html.On this page he outlines various circumstances where either low potencies or high potencies should be used. "Children who are suffering from severe problems should generally be given low potencies.""Patients who have weak constitutions, old people, or very hypersensitive people should initially be given potencies ranging, roughly, from 12 X to 200." In his latest book, Levels of Health (International Academy of Classical Homeopathy, 2010) Vithoulkas outlines the reasoning behind potency selection and states that the potency selection is based on: 1. the sensitivity of the patient, 2. the health of the patient, 3. the depth of pathology, 4. whether the health of the patient is in imminent danger the degree of similarity of the selected remedy to the symptomatology of the patient. According to Vithoulkas, the effectiveness of a remedy in a clinical circumstance is based on many factors. Rajan Sankaran, another prominent homeopath and also one of the "subsequent proponents" on the Wikipedia homeopathy page also seems to contradict the statement. Paraphrased here: http://www.homeopathyforhealth.net/2010/02/04/sankaran%E2%80%99s-seven-levels-and-selecting-the-potency-in-homeopathy/ and found in his later titles "Sensation in Homeopathy" and "Sensation Refined", Sankaran's potency selection is based primarily on how the patient is "expressing" their disease - whether they are speak about their disease in factual terms, or metaphors of delusion or sensation, etc. For Sankaran there is no assumption of increased effectiveness as the potency increases. Different potencies are simply used for different clinical circumstances.

Here are two prominent homeopaths who have, I think, contradicted the statement "(e)ach dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." Should we seek out more sources to help clarify the issue? One possibility is to seek out some of the exam questions homeopaths in regulated jurisdictions have to answer around potency to see if supports or contradicts the statement. Any thoughts? Dizzybee (talk) 01:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

This is what I love about Wikipedia: a reasoned discussion on documenting the subject.

That said, it does seem worth at least revising that statement a bit. Kannon McAfee has a good suggestion there. "Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase a remedy's potency." might be a more accurate statement of homeopath's beliefs. Note that I keep "assumed" as there's no actual evidence of potency at all. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 02:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that response Dizzybee. I'm a little short on time right now, so I can't read through your sources quite yet, but I'd like to nail down the type of change we're discussing if we can. Correct me if I've misunderstood you, but you were talking before about how increased dilution and succussion was believed to result in a change in locality for the remedy. Now, it seems we're discussing whether "effectiveness" is the right word to use, or if "potency" might be better. Which of those two changes are you hoping to implement (or both)? Would HandThatFeed's suggestion to change the wording to "potency" solve this issue? I think that might be a good option, from my understanding of the literature.   — Jess· Δ♥ 04:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Any time we say "X believes...", "Y thinks..." or "Z knows..." we err. We simply cannot know what is in someone else's head. Any source which claims to do so is at best using figurative language, at worst is unreliable. This is especially when we say "X believes [something incredible]". Instead, we should restrain ourselves to saying what they wrote or stated, as verifiable in published reliable sources.LeadSongDog come howl! 05:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

BS. This is what is claimed by homeopaths. It's the entire point of their "method." We're not mind-reading, we're repeating what they've clearly said. You can change "assume" to "advocate" if you want to be pedantic about it, since that's in the cited source on the very next sentence. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard this argument before that we shouldn't say "so-and-so believed X, Y, and Z" because we don't know what he truly believed. Did Darwin believe in evolution? Does the pope believe Jesus was the messiah? No way to know for sure, so we better not include that.

It's technically correct; but, I believe HTF labeling this 'pedantic' is the perfect word for it. Nothing personal, LeadSong, this is just my personal opinion, and I respect your viewpoint. But, as I see it, if someone wrote about something or expressed a view point, I believe that is sufficient evidence (in general) to state he/she believed in it.JoelWhy (talk) 20:19, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

So what's the problem? Just say "X said Y" or "X wrote Y" or "X is on record as having said/wrote Y" if we don't have a direct reference. It's really easy to work around HTFY's issue here - be pedantically correct and yet still say exactly what we needs to be said on the matter. SteveBaker (talk) 03:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. We can't tell if the speaker believes it or is spouting what Hand calls "BS". If we say in the voice of the encyclopedia that he believes something we say is false then we are in effect calling him gullible, rather than duplicitous. We have no grounds to make that call. "Say" is quite sufficient. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:30, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

My term 'measure' of a remedy's potency is neutral. This term 'measure' does not make a claim of effectiveness or ineffectiveness. It simply denotes how homeopaths make and label their medicine -- even if it is "BS" -- which I see as an advocacy statement AGAINST homeopathy. If you start out so biased against it and unwilling to put it personally to the test, then it is very difficult to maintain NPOV, which in my opinion is really lacking in this Homeopathy article. It is possible to select terms that neither advocate or criticize the methodology while describing it. The term 'assumed' has been promoted here to nullify claims to 'effectiveness' that simply are not relevant to the sentence describing the process of how a homeopathic remedy is made. I have no problem with dropping the sentence entirely. That would be better than maintaining descriptive information lacking NPOV. Kannon McAfee (talk) 02:18, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

You're wrong about having to personally put Homeopathy to the test before we can comment on it - that's ridiculous. Are you saying that you wouldn't believe that a broken leg could be mended with a plaster cast without first breaking your leg and trying it? Can we not say that the height of Mount Everest is 8,848 meters without personally climbing up there with tape-measure in hand? Absolutely not! In fact, if you did exactly that then Wikipedia would explicitly forbid you from using your experience to write on the subject because that would be original research. We say that Homeopathy is BS because there are a ton of scientifically run tests that prove that - and not a single carefully run double-blind test that shows that it works. It's not a matter of advocacy - it's a matter of "The Truth" as defined by Wikipedia for the purposes of writing articles.

NPOV doesn't mean giving equal weight to both sides of an argument because that would mean that we'd have to write that it's that it's equally possible that the earth is flat rather than round. We'd have to say that because the flat-earth society say so and we have to give their POV equal footing to the likes of NASA. Fortunately, for the sake of writing a moderately sane encyclopedia that doesn't give every whack-job equal air time: No, that's not what NPOV means. In the context of Wikipedia, WP:NPOV means giving appropriate weight to the various points of view - in a manner that's proportionate to the amount of reliable evidence for that point of view. That allows us to say "The world is definitely round. (Although members of the flat earth society claim otherwise)". It also allows us to say "Homeopathy definitely doesn't work. (Although homeopathists claim otherwise)". Both of those are NPOV statements given appropriately reliable sources for those statements.

Since the evidence (as required by WP:MEDRS and WP:FRINGE) for claims that homeopathy is effective is entirely absent - and evidence that it's no better than placebo is everywhere - the perfect NPOV article on the subject most certainly should say, unequivocable, that homeopathy is BS - because that's what the unanimous findings of WP:MEDRS-acceptable sources are. Sure, you don't like this rule - you find it unfair to your strong beliefs - but that is how Wikipedia is run. There really isn't much you can do about that. SteveBaker (talk) 03:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

POV would be if used language which, for instance, cast homeopaths as terrible people, or advocated for the banning of homeopathy. On the other hand, it is not POV to make it clear in the article that, by every objective measure that homeopathy has been tested, it has been shown to provide no health benefits beyond the placebo effect.JoelWhy (talk) 13:11, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's certainly true. SteveBaker (talk) 15:06, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I have outlined several sources and I hope you have had a chance to look at them. In the context of the original line "(e)ach dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the effectiveness." that I was wanting to edit, I propose the following long summary of what I sourced with regards to this issue. This summary is provided in the spirit of making a more accurate statement.

Homeopath's assume that each dilution followed by succussion: 1. creates a new homeopathic substance 2. are termed "homeopathic potencies" 3. have different clinical applications.

This would be my understanding of what homeopaths assume/think regarding the application of different potencies. I may be wrong. However I feel I have backed my arguments up with what some may call solid sources.

It may be helpful (I know it was helpful to me!) to try and not think of the term "potency" as "strength" (in this context). In my opinion "potency" is an unfortunate word applied in this context. However the genie is out of the bottle and I don't think we will be able to get the homeopathic world to change its terminology. Perhaps we should start using a term like "homeopathic preparation".

Anyhow, I know my suggestion is a bit wordy and could use some wordsmithing however I thought I would put this suggestion out there for comment and consensus building. I also think we could go back to a more historical version such as "According to Hahnemann, each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the "medicinal power" if that is deemed more appropriate.Dizzybee (talk) 17:49, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Based on your suggestion, maybe this would work:

Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to increase the homeopathic potency of the remedy, creating a new homoepathic substance with different clinical applications.

I'll comb through the sources when I get a chance and see if this reflects the literature. In the meantime, does anyone have a problem with that? Feel free to tweak as necessary.   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:49, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The terms "potency" and "remedy" have iirc been the subject of edit wars in the past. Have a look/search through the archives above to get the background. While the use of poison quotes in this context would carry delicious irony, it would need to gain explicit consensus in order to prevent further disruption. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:52, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

LSD, are you referring to Dizzybee's bulleted proposal which uses quotes, or mine which doesn't? I just want to be clear on what you're pointing out. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:56, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

LSD, I'm not surprised that there have been edit wars in the past. I'm glad you are here with the institutional memory of this page. Please let us know if we are re-hashing things that have been sorted out already. Jess, thanks for the draft. The term potency in this context may be interpreted in different ways depending on who is reading. I think homeopaths will say sure, as you dilute and succuss, the potency increases (ie. it goes from a 3CH to a 4CH. The number does increase). I think someone unfamiliar with the way homeopathic substances are prepared will think that the strength increases. I will defer a re-draft until there is input from others.Dizzybee (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

In a nutshell - homeopathists use common English language words in extremely non-standard ways. We can't use words like "potency" and assume that our readers will understand the weird way that homeopathists use it. Even if they look it up in a dictionary, it won't provide the meaning that homeopathists ascribe to it. Since there is a strong suspicion that homeopathists do this deliberately in order to obfuscate their claims, we have to be extremely careful not to let these non-standard meanings cloud the issues within our article. For example, Wiktionary says that "potency" means:

1. Strength
2. Power
3. The ability or capacity to perform something.

Other dictionaries that I've checked say essentially the same thing.

When you dilute something and claim to have increased it's "potency" then the standard English meaning is that you made it stronger, more powerful, more able to cure diseases. Since some (perhaps most) homeopathists do in fact believe this, it's tough to come along and say "Yes, they do say that the 'potency' increases when you dilute something - but 'potency' doesn't mean what you think it does." That just means that we can't believe a single word that these whack-jobs write because whenever you corner them they just claim to have redefined this or that word. This is yet another reason why we can't use Homeopathist's writings as sources for this article. If they're going to go around redefining common English words without providing a clear statement of what they interpret those words to mean and - worse still - if these words mean different things to different homeopathists - then it should come as no surprise that they gain no traction in communicating their views. SteveBaker (talk) 01:05, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

How about we look at this:

Each dilution followed by succussion is assumed to create a new homeopathic substance with different clinical applications.

If we are looking to avoid the term "potency" in the entry, we will have to work on the subsequent line as well...Dizzybee (talk) 14:11, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Er, no. That's way too much WP:OR in that form. Homeopaths aren't claiming it's a new substance at all. Their entire spiel is that it's the original substance diluted down to a "healthy" level that magically cures the "unhealthy" levels in the body. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:44, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

We can't really avoid talking about the contrarian nomenclature used in homeopathy. We need to explicitly discuss how the advocates use "potentize" to mean "dilute", "remedy" to mean "something that you give to healthy people", etc. We might want to make that a distinct section. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:33, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we're going to need a section describing (as best is possible) the non-standard meanings that homeopathists apply to all of these common words. That's not going to be easy because they don't all seem to agree. HOWEVER we can't use those words in the lede. It is unconscionable to use a word in a non-standard manner without first defining it. So many people never get beyond reading the lede - and that would mean that they'd miss our section describing what all of those words mean. Since the lede is only supposed to summarize - we also can't put great heaps of discussion about what words like "potent" and "treatment" mean in that section. It follows then that the lede must be written in standard English - avoiding these difficult words altogether. Subsequently, we can define these special terms and use them in the remainder of the article (although, IMHO, they should be wrapped in quotes and italicised to indicate that these are not words that Wikipedia sanctions to mean those things. SteveBaker (talk) 18:41, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Homeopaths attempt to salvage a positive result from treatment failure in an underpowered trial

Homeopaths attempt to salvage a positive result from treatment failure in an underpowered trial, M Vagg, Focus on Alternative and Complementary Therapies, March 2012

Brangifer (talk) 19:25, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Sadly a common feature of alt-med researchers. But a pertinent point is made by the critics, one arm of this trial was of individualised prescriptions. No statistical difference was found between any of the arms for primary outcome although realistically, no result could be considered as the sample size was so low. Acleron (talk) 17:57, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out - it's an excellent example of common errors in designing and interpreting clinical trials, and I'll probably use it for didactic purposes IRL. MastCell ^Talk 18:38, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

What bothers me most is that it should have been obvious at the outset that this study was too poorly designed to achieve any meaningful result either way. That being the case, what physician would allow his patients to be subjected to a study that's doomed to be meaningless? SteveBaker (talk) 18:53, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

'Not objective'

Your opening sentence to this article is probably responsible for millions of deaths and is not objective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.218.111.60 (talk) 04:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

You provide no evidence whatsoever to back up that ridiculous assertion. 'Objectivity' requires evidence, not opinion... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:23, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

What would you replace it with? Acleron (talk) 10:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Wiktionary defines "objective" as "Agreed upon by all parties present (or nearly all); based on consensually observed facts" and "Not influenced by irrational emotions or prejudices". From the perspective of Wikipedia, articles on medical topics have to be fact-checked and cross-referenced against reliable sources. We did that - and the result was that all (or nearly all) parties who have tested Homeopathy to the standards required by Wikipedia have said that it's no better than placebo. We are also not influenced by irrational emotions and prejudices - we rely on those reliable sources, which Wikipedia say are the rational ones. We specifically reject information from people who do not act rationally (eg those who ignore scientific trials of homeopathy). That makes our opening paragraph extremely objective.

Furthermore, it is exceedingly unlikely (even if homeopathy worked - which it evidently does not) that Wikipedia could dissuade "millions" and somehow cause their deaths. Instead, it is rather more likely that we'll prevent a much more modest number of deaths and injuries that might happen in the manner of the 437 cases documented here (30 of which resulted in death as a direct result of idiot homeopathists.

Our opening paragraph is "The Truth" as defined by Wikipedia's sourcing guidelines. If you have other solid reference material (such as would meet the stringent requirements of our policy at WP:MEDRS) that show that our opening paragraph is incorrect or not "objective" - then we'd be very excited to hear about them - but I have to say that people come here and tell us that all the time - and we never get any actual solid evidence out of them. There is a reason for that!

SteveBaker (talk) 18:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Provings

I'm confused. It says at page 202 of Devrient's translation of the 1833 Organon (the 5th German edition) that provings are done with medicinal substances that are "alone and perfectly pure". Do later editions differ, or has current practice changed from what the Organon calls for? Incidentally, the proliferation of ISBNs for works which are in the public domain is troubling. We should be linking to free online archives for all these, not driving sales to specific reprinters. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The 1913 Everyman's edition of Wheeler's translation uses slightly different English wording here: "perfectly simple and unadulterated form". LeadSongDog come howl! 16:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The 1833 translation linked to seems to be of the 4th German edition - its table of contents lists only 292 aphorisms, and the 5th edition had 294 and wasn't translated until 1849. The 5th and (posthumous) 6th editions of the Organon state, at aphorism 128, that "provings" should be carried out using 30C remedies. The book on homoeopathic pharmacy cited in the section of the article on provings also states that modern "provings" are almost invariably carried out using ultramolecular remedies. And, of course, the basic "law" of similars states that disease can be treated by a remedy that causes the symptoms of the disease, not a remedy made from something that causes the symptoms. Brunton (talk) 16:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

So you get the idea that Hahnemann was developing his ideas about homeopathy. He was learning and expressing that in his writings. What then is your understanding of what he was saying overall? I ask that knowing that wiki needs references, but the question stands. And as for the references for that, what qualifies?Cjwilky (talk) 20:43, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Odd edit

Can someone explain this sentence to me? "This is at odds with Hahnemann's rules for proving, which would also appear to exclude "imponderables" such as light of venus, shipwreck, pink and TV radiation." I've read it a dozen times and cannot figure out what it means. Is it trying to say that (1) light from the planet Venus; (2) shipwrecks, (3) the color pink, and (4) radiation emitted from televisions are all "imponderables"? I've read this sentence a dozen times and I just don't understand what it means.JoelWhy (talk) 14:01, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I've reverted that addition as grammatically confusing, as well as unsourced WP:OR. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:07, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The poison quotes were on "imponderables" for a reason. It's a term of art that homeopaths use for remedies that are made purely by association (not mixing). This may be writing something on a piece of paper then putting a vial of water atop that paper. It may be exposing a vial to the light of the sun, or even of Venus. It's a sympathetic magic idea that even some homeopaths have trouble with. While definitely not wp:MEDRS, these might shed some light: [1] [2] [3]. I gather the term goes back to Hahnemann (1833). LeadSongDog come howl! 16:31, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow. All I can say is wow. I mean, as if homeopathy wasn't silly enough, along comes some homeopaths who manage to make regular homeopathy seem like its based on the Theory of Relativity in comparison.JoelWhy (talk) 16:38, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Are you suggesting there is nothing in the light from the sun? Strange is that imponderable "magic" that causes a fridge to work from those black things on the roof. Thank the lord the earth is flat. Cjwilky (talk) 20:37, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Way to slay that straw man...JoelWhy (talk) 20:53, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

No straw without the sun, dood Cjwilky (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I am sure that you are only pretending not to understand so there's not much point explaining. What is worth explaining is why the fact of adverse reactions to penicillin is not relevant in this article. Penicillin is a drug, it has a real and provable effect, it is a genuinely life-saving medicine that also has rare side-effects. Homeopathy is purely a placebo, it has no effects so of course it has no side effects either. Medicine has a way of dealing with the risk/benefit equation (hence the change away from live vaccines for polio once polio had declined to a tiny fraciotn of its original prevalence). Homeopathy has no mechanism for self-correction and lacks any self-criticism whatsoever. There is no comparison between the two. Guy (Help!) 18:53, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The point I made, which as usual seems to be missed in this talk page, so I repeat it again, is about the suggestion above ("It may be exposing a vial to the light of the sun, or even of Venus. It's a sympathetic magic idea that even some homeopaths have trouble with.") that sunlight contains nothing, remedies from it are magic and some homeopaths have issues with that (I don't know of any at all). An imponderable is a remedy made from nothing visible as matter. Hence photons, magnetic fields and the like are well established "somethings" that aren't visible matter and so are classed as imponderables. Cjwilky (talk) 17:03, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sunlight is energy, but it doesn't turn water into medicine. That's just inane. SÆdon^talk 17:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, if you look at the edit history for Solar water disinfection it will be clear that I'm quite aware that sunlight interacts with water and with things suspended in it. Obviously, it at least marginally warms the water. But it doesn't become yellow, or radioactive, or start emitting a solar wind. The "sympathetic magic" is in its purported acquisition of only the specific attributed healthful properties of the Sun (or Venus, or whatever). LeadSongDog come howl! 17:50, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Photons, magnetic fields, etc can be measured and studied, as can their impact on matter. The only thing I find 'imponderable' about all this is how anyone can utilize these special pleadings to convince themselves that homeopathy is medicine.JoelWhy (talk) 17:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should mention somewhere that the use of 'imponderable' here is another word used by homeopaths to mean something different than in general English or in science.Acleron (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

From what Cj wrote above I'm gathering that they use it in the normal English sense but happen to be uneducated about what physics has elucidated thus far and so they call it imponderable from a perspective of ignorance. For instance, Bill O'Reilly seems to think the force that makes the tides go in and out imponderable, while the average 8th grader would snicker at the thought. SÆdon^talk 21:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Awkward one. My understanding of imponderable is either something that cannot be detected or thought about. As none of these silly examples are in those categories I suggest they have misused the word. For example, Cj says 'Are you suggesting there is nothing in the light from the sun?', so they know there is 'something there' therefore it cannot be imponderable.Acleron (talk) 11:53, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem here is not whether sunlight can or can't do something to a liquid that's exposed to it. The problem is that the homeopathists don't have a good explanation for why they claim that this might work - and they have not performed appropriate scientific double-blind experiments to verify that it does. In the case of sunlight, it is indeed plausible that sunlight could have some kind of photochemical effect - but that's not the issue. The amount of 'Venuslight' is so utterly negligable that it's entirely implausible that it could have any effect. If so little sunlight reflected off of some planetary body could have such a profound effect then merely taking the liquid out of the bottle to injest it would cause a gazillion profound changes due to sunlight reflected off of the bottle cap, from the patient's mouth and so forth. It's this lack of a connection between what you're doing and why you're doing it - backed up with careful experimental testing for efficacy that makes this all a pile of steaming bull-crap pseudoscience. These exposures to various kinds of light are "imponderables" because nobody has attempted to ponder them - and controlling experiments in which tiny numbers of photons of sunlight reflected from Venus have some profound effect really are pretty much "imponderable" because you simply cannot control for all of the millions of other sources of sunlight reflected from the experimenter's hands, the room and so forth. This nature of homeopathy where very dilute amounts of substances (or now light) are claimed to have a profound effect really are "imponderable" because any water you could ever obtain anywhere had C30 dilutions of every substance found on earth in it before the researcher even started to mess with it. You can't make a C30 dilution of eye-of-newt (or whatever it is this week) without also accidentally making a C30 dilution of the experimenters' tears, his excrement, his skin cells, the copper pipes that carried the water here, the light of Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Betelgeuse, etc, etc. A clean, controlled experiment is impossible and (in truth) the whole practice of homeopathy is fatally flawed because of that. SteveBaker (talk) 12:50, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd be a bit more relaxed and say that understanding the why, while scientifically interesting and valuable, isn't necessarily required for a therapy to be legitimate. When penicillin was discovered (and for quite a number of years after it came into regular use) no one knew that it worked by irreversibly inhibiting the action of the enzyme DD-transpeptidase, but that didn't mean that it wasn't considered a 'real' pharmaceutical. The problem with homeopathic remedies is twofold; first, since the mechanisms of action isn't really known (and likely doesn't exist), its practitioners have made up any number of different stories and tout them all as fact without any supporting evidence for their reasoning. Doctors using penicillin didn't know how it worked, either, but it didn't matter and they didn't have to make up elaborate stories and rituals because they didn't have homeopathy's second major problem—penicillin actually worked reliably in clinical use. That's your second point, Steve, and by far the most important. Homeopathic practitioners have never demonstrated an ability to consistently achieve results better than a placebo. Whether that's because the entire field is irrational bunkum or simply because their test samples keep getting contaminated with moonlight is nearly irrelevant from a clinical standpoint. That's the bind that the homeopaths are in; either they need to produce consistent results with an entirely empirical, phenomenological, explanation-less approach (which they haven't been able to do), or they need some sort of physical evidence supporting any kind of rational mechanism (and which might explain why their efforts at therapy are so inconsistent, and guide them in how to improve their method's efficacy). Instead, they fail the clinical tests, and come up with untestable mechanisms. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:22, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Yea, but for all we know, Penicillin doesn't actually work -- it's just a fungi that's been exposed to the healing light of the moon, which provides the real healing effects. I hope you've enjoyed my Homeopathy dissertation.JoelWhy (talk) 14:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Try this one on for size: Swan S. "Luna" Homeopathic World October 1, 1883. pages 469-475

Describes the "proving" of that imponderable. Makes an interesting read. LeadSongDog come howl! 22:05, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

...and powerfully conveys why you need a control for every experiment, with double-blinding and a statistically meaningful sample of test subjects! SteveBaker (talk) 12:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Imponderable is a term that within homeopathy classifies a group of remedies that are not from plants, animals, milks, minerals etc. Its not unusual for a word to have a slightly different meaning within a discipline, its ignorant to suggest otherwise.

Hahnemann made a remedy from magnetic field, so its not at odds with how he made remedies. Cjwilky (talk) 14:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

If that is how you define 'imponderable' then it is not a slightly different meaning. It is known in great detail what causes a magnetic field, how it behaves and how it can be manipulated, it is not imponderable, at all.Acleron (talk) 21:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)