Talk:Atheism

Why is the atheism definition different?

Sources: Any dictionary amoral: LACK of moral sensibility apathy: LACK of feeling or emotion atheism: ? Why is this definition so different BlushNine (talk) 14:40, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Atheism has different definitions. Note that the article's lead includes the definition for absence (or lack) of belief in deities, although the sources either do not consider it the primary definition in use, or ignore it. This talkpage is not a forum for discussing why this is the case though, but for discussing improvements of this article on the topic. See wp:forum.--Modocc (talk) 15:34, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Also, using “absence” makes the sentence more neutral, since “lack” connotes a deficiency. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 00:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:NOTDICT. The topic should not be set by a dictionary but by a current major usage, other meanings are covered by disambiguation. Dmcq (talk) 14:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC) Dmcq (talk) 14:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Atheism is the specific belief that no deities exist. It is not just a lack of belief, that is agnosticism. The article is not neutral. --41.51.183.182 (talk) 05:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

What part of "Atheism has different definitions" is not clear to you? Powers ^T 13:25, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Criticism section

There should probably be a genuine criticism of atheism section that summarizes the contents of the criticism of atheism article. The Atheism, religion, and morality section links to the criticism of atheism article, but the section itself contains little critical commentary towards atheism, rather it starts out with a defense of atheism from a demographic perspective. -Stevertigo (t | c) 06:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Criticism sections are bad style, See the style manuals etc. Criticisms are discussed in the relevant sections. Also note that you added a link to the criticism article, it's already linked to 3 times in the article (it's even very prominent on the atheism template at the start of the article). IRWolfie- (talk) 13:29, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Also, I fear that it would become another battleground, and we certainly don't need that. I don't think the page currently soft-sells it, but I'd be open to arguments about the current organization about the atheism-religion-morality section. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Criticism sections have been debated, and there is no solid consensus on the matter one way or the other. We still have plenty of sections and articles dedicated to a critical point of view. The criticism of atheism article is an example. Criticism sections and articles serve an important function in allowing critical material to exist within an article when otherwise such material would tend to be removed. This article appears to be such an example. Criticism sections can be written in accord with NPOV and thus dont violate that policy or WEIGHT, in fact such sections help an article comply with WEIGHT by giving due concern to critical issues. Regards,-Stevertigo (t | c) 04:53, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

If your issue is one of lack of critical material then it is better to simplify address the specifics in their relevant sections. There is no need for a criticism section which would simply be a troll magnet. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:56, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that hits the nail on the head, for me. Criticism: of course – criticism section: not as helpful. I'd be fine with adding more critical points of view to the sections in which they would be relevant. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:54, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Plus one. Criticism: yes; corralled into a separate section: no. Binksternet (talk) 16:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Im only speaking based on ten years of editing here. Criticism sections solve a problem. They aren't perfect, merely functional. Now, why does this article not summarize the criticism of atheism article? -Stevertigo (t | c) 09:44, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

You appear to wish a criticism section for the sake of it rather than for any perceived benefit. You have already stated that there is no consensus on them being required. Therefore the question should be the reverse as you wish to change the article. Why should there be a criticism section rather than having criticism intregrated into the relevant sections? What problem do criticism sections solve? IRWolfie- (talk) 11:00, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

They solve the essential problem that critical material tends to be either removed from the article by proponents, or it is simply hard to find by readers. There is a criticism of atheism article. It no doubt started as criticism section at this article. There should be some linkage between this article and that one. Along with this linkage, there should be some summarizing of that article's content. Standard procedure. Regards,-Stevertigo (t | c) 21:04, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

The first 'essential' problem is vandalism by those proponents, however vandalism by some cannot be the sole reason for adding sections. The second reason, would (if extrapolated to the absurd) mean that each and every article in Wikipedia should have each and every section that some reader may look for. This would make all article extremely long and utterly useless. That each article referring to a top level article should have a section in that top level article is not true; for example the United States and state terrorism is not mentioned anywhere in the top level USA article (let alone have a section of its own). If anything, the standard procedure would be to integrate criticism in the texts per WP:CRITICISM. Arnoutf (talk) 21:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism of criticism sections is manageable. WP:CRITICISM is an essay. -Stevertigo (t | c) 22:51, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Odd I cant find the old talk about this - but yes the above editor is right " criticism sections" was moved to its own article long ago. At that time it was determined a whole section is not a good way to go...instead we should incorporate this type of material into appropriate sections with a nice link to the main article. A whole section is a bit much when we have an article already. Almost every topic will have some criticism and it should be intertwined into the article for flow. All that said way back when there was mention of criticism in the proper sections but this has slowly been removed over the years over to the main artile.Moxy (talk) 23:56, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, in articles where the subject matter has proponents and opponents, the proponents tend to remove critical information. Crit sections serve to keep such information where it belongs, on the article, per WP:WEIGHT. In this case, a short summary section appears to be needed. It can be just one or two short paragraphs outlining one or two of the basic criticisms of atheism. One such criticism that comes to mind is this one: Atheism rejects divine judgment, hence atheism rejects the idea of divine consequence. In an environment where atheism has influence, there is an idea that anything goes - inconsequentialism if you will. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 02:12, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Your example of divine judgment would go into the morality section. I think changing the article to avoid vandalism is not a great reason for the change, particularly considering that this is a featured article. Criticism can still be added to relevant sections. I don't think there has been a tendency to remove critical content by editors of this article. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:23, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to add my voice to those who do not like the idea of a criticism section. Criticism sections are always magnets for trolls. And to answer a specific point raised by Stevertigo, if a user is seeking to find criticism of atheism, they will search for "criticism of atheism". I reject the notion that it is "hard to find". -- Scjessey (talk) 14:04, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Seeing how most editors here dislike the idea of a separate criticism section, and seeing how Stevertigo sees the critical editorial matter as being to briefly cover just a few major criticisms, I think we should identify those major criticisms and sources, and then identify where they could best be fit within the existing organization of the page. That should not be difficult. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:58, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Criticism sections are magnets for topic bashers (Troll or not). The example by Stevertigo "In an environment where atheism has influence, there is an idea that anything goes - inconsequentialism if you will." does not reassure me at all, as moral psychology has shown repeatedly that this is not the case. Arnoutf (talk) 17:45, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Scjessey wrote: "Criticism sections are always magnets for trolls." Arnoutf wrote: "Criticism sections are magnets for topic bashers (Troll or not)". I don't see much evidence for this idea that criticism sections 'attract trolls.' What I do see evidence of is that some articles are overrun by proponents. For example if this article were overrun by proponents, it would be largely under the control of atheists, who sanitize the article according to their POV. I'm not saying this is the case, but the lack of critical material, other than an isolated link to the criticism of atheism article, suggests this article needs some protection - not from so-called "trolls", but from so-called "proponents." Note there is a criticism of religion section, which sumarrizes the criticism of religion article, and properly links to that article. Why summarize that and not the other? -Stevertigo (t | c) 21:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

This article did have a criticism section which was integrated into the article with this edit, back in May 2007, just prior to it becoming featured, thus the suggestion that "the lack of critical material, other than an isolated link to the criticism of atheism, suggests..." isn't correct. --Modocc (talk) 21:35, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

You claim there is no criticism in the article and yet you have been invited to add relevant criticism to the relevant section but have not done so. You have shown no evidence of removal by "proponents". Seriously, referring to the article being "under the control of atheists" sounds like borderline WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:12, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. When I have time I will cobble together a short treatment. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 22:28, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

PS: Its interesting to note, though, that most of those who have responded in opposition to a criticism of atheism section have indicated some connection to atheism on their userpage. Am I at fault for making such an observation? -Stevertigo (t | c) 01:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are at fault for that, as it does not assume good faith. So to speak. de Bivort 02:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Its just an observation, and an interesting one. I do not assume bad faith. Its probably only natural that this topic attracts atheists. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 02:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Seemed like transparent insinuation to me. de Bivort 05:25, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

There's no such thing as "just an observation" when discussing religion.Jasonnewyork (talk) 12:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Back on topic... why is there a need for a specific criticism section when there's already an entire article on criticism of atheism, and even that article is more like "criticism of specific high-profile individuals". How much criticism is really warranted? The major criticisms are all already in the article, what purpose would pulling them out into one section be? eldamorie (talk) 13:38, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

There is no need here (As the majority believe from above) - We have to be careful not to confuse bigotry with criticism. We must be-carefull not to confuse religious views over scientific data. Like mentioned above that "Atheism" lacks morality - this is not scientific just guess work by the religious right. We would have to specify were sources come from.. To suggest that morality only steams from religion is way off and an uneducated guess - we must say were the info comes from to give it proper weight.Moxy (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Eldamorie wrote: "why is there a need for a specific criticism section when there's already an entire article on criticism of atheism.." - It is standard form to introduce subtopic articles on the main article page via a simple summary section. This is standard for major subtopic articles like criticism of atheism. Moxy wrote: "We have to be careful not to confuse bigotry with criticism. We must be-carefull not to confuse religious views over scientific data. Like mentioned above that "Atheism" lacks morality - this is not scientific just guess work by the religious right.." - Its important to represent the views of the relevant people without trying to qualify those views as "scientific" or not. That's not an NPOV way of representing different views. I have the fortune of seeing things from both sides, and think its possible to write in a neutral way about this. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 23:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I am 100% against this idea. Criticism sections suck, regardless of which article they are in, and they are never necessary. I can guarantee that any such section will be abused. And quite frankly, criticism of atheism is poorly-conceived POV fork because atheism is more or less above criticism insofar as it is a non thing (as in "not theism"). It is akin to having a criticism of happiness article. I can totally understand having articles that are critical of the actions of certain atheists or antitheists, but not atheism itself. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:02, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Scjessey. Atheism is the rejection of dogma, of deities. There are no tenets of atheism, thus there is nothing to criticize. You can't look at the book of Whoflooberty and say it contradicts the teachings of Gloobernon (like you can with an actual religion). It's like trying to give a dye job to a bald guy. There's nothing there to work with. A criticism section for atheism just turns into a way to target individual atheists and imply that their perspective is universal, which is certainly unfounded. Either that or it becomes a pious rant about how morality only comes from one god. And if you want to make that argument, then imagine what would happen if all the other religions went to the criticism of Christianity page and started saying, "Christians are morally flawed because true morality only comes from my god, __________." (fill in the blank with any number of gods) Because there are citations for that type of stuff.Jasonnewyork (talk) 13:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The criticism of atheism article is already linked to, and fairly prominently - it's the third article listed in the navbox on the right. So I'm unsure as to why we need a separate section, since all of the material that would be in it is already present in the article, which, according to WP:CRIT(Yes, I know, it's "only" an essay) is the ideal way to deal with criticism. eldamorie (talk) 13:44, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Jason wrote: Atheism is the rejection of dogma, of deities. There are no tenets of atheism, thus there is nothing to criticize. - No, atheism is the dogmatic rejection of deities. Scjessey: atheism is more or less above criticism insofar as it is a non thing (as in "not theism"). - Atheism is "above criticism?" Is there anyone here who can separate their own feelings of moral superiority from their editing? -Stevertigo (t | c) 19:32, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Atheism and religion can both be dogmatic (and often are). Atheism is not above criticism, but that in itself is no reason for making a separate criticism section; especially since there is an article on the topic, and criticisms are embedded in the text.

This discussion, however, is going nowhere. Stevertigo, please accept you have a minority position here, which makes a consensus for adding a criticism section unlikely (at best). Arnoutf (talk) 19:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Well said, arnoutf. de Bivort 19:43, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Arnoutf, you say that criticisms are "embedded in the text" of this article, but I only find one, under the Atheist philosophies section:

"One of the most common criticisms of atheism has been to the contrary—that denying the existence of a god leads to moral relativism, leaving one with no moral or ethical foundation,[55] or renders life meaningless and miserable.[56]"

Are there any other criticisms embedded in the text which I may have missed? The scarcity of criticisms in this article would seem to go against the notion that criticisms can be (and have been) embedded rather than put into a separate section. Note that the section that contains the link to the criticism of atheism article doesn't itself mention any such criticisms. This goes against standard policy, which requires that such sections contain relevant summaries. -Stevertigo (t | c) 20:12, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't suppose that a call to adhere to a Wikipedia guideline (it doesn't have the status of a firm policy) on the subject will be an end to the matter, but it might be worth reading: it starts "Integrate negative material into sections that cover all viewpoints" and continues in the same vein for the next section: "Avoid sections and articles focusing on "criticisms" or "controversies" (emphasis as original). Wikipedia:NOCRIT gives the link. —Old Moonraker (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry: I missed the post, above, where User:Arnoutf already made a similar point and, no, it didn't put and end to anything. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:03, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Since Stevertigo is nowhere near establishing consensus on this, I hope that he/she follows the reasonable procedure already outlined - rather than complain about a lack of criticism integrated into the text, propose new integrations of criticisms, and see how people respond. de Bivort 02:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Note that you linked to an essay and not a policy or guideline. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:45, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

True, an essay is a suggestion and not a policy or guideline; which does not mean an essay is without value altogether. On the other hand while Stevertigo refers to this article "....goes against standard policy" no actual standard policy page is linked to. So it appears that in this case we have an essay and lack of consensus against adding a criticism section; and an unknown/unproven standard policy in favour. Arnoutf (talk) 17:09, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Besides, with the possible exception of WP:BLP all policies are trumped by consensus, which we clearly have here. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:29, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with that. It's time to move on. But, as noted earlier, it is still quite reasonable to consider adding further criticisms within the existing sections, so long as they are adequately sourced. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:09, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Minor but important change to definition of atheism

The lead to the article seems repetitive, specifically regarding the definition of atheism. I see that this has been debated quite a bit, so since I'm late to the ballgame, this might be settled law by now. But here's my take anyway. I think the first sentence is right. "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1]" What I think should follow that sentence is this: "Atheism is, in a specific sense, the rejection of belief in a specific religious dogma." Because I think Atheism follows two distinct paths - the first is just to reject the immediate dogma of your localized religion, and the second is to reject all deities. Look at Bill Maher. He is arguably the most famous self-proclaimed atheist in the world, and how does he define his atheism? He defines it as a rejection of western religious dogma. When asked about being "spiritual," (define that however you like, but it's related to religion) he says it's "on his to-do list." I think it's possible to be an atheist without being fully vested in the notion that there are no external "supernatural" forces at work, but still being fully certain that the deities within a specific dogma do not exist. Does that make sense?Jasonnewyork (talk) 20:48, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughtful way that you raised that, acknowledging the past discussions. Speaking from my individual opinion, I guess that does make some sense, but speaking as a Wikipedia editor, I feel that we have to base what we say on secondary sources, preferably scholarly ones in this case – WP:NOR and all that. And as a survivor of those past discussions, I can confidently tell you that editors are going to insist on that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh right, those secondary sources. I was sorta babbling extemporaneously. <g> I'll keep an eye out for any scholarly wording in that vein, and in the meantime I'll just chime in on other matters as they arise. Cheers.Jasonnewyork (talk) 22:20, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

US demographics

I was about to add this in. I'll leave it to you guys if you want it. You can cut and paste exactly.

Since conceptions of atheism vary, determining how many atheists exist in the world today is difficult., but studies indicate that persons claiming "no religion" is increasing. According to the Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture, that number increased in the US from 14 million to 34 million between 1990 and 2008, an increase of 171%. And according to a 2009 report by the American Religious Identification Survey, people claiming to adhere to "no religion" made up 15% of the population in the US.

The demos that were just contested are over 6 years old (probably more given study lag times), so this data is more relevant. Plus, I looked at those demos from that 2006 data, and it was reported in a misleading way. You should probably combine atheists and agnostics since the distinction is often confusing.Jasonnewyork (talk) 22:06, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

The 171% is not needed, but I support the rest of the suggestion. Anything to give the reader an idea of demographics, some numbers to give him an idea. Binksternet (talk) 22:55, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Bracketing the referent

I am concerned that these misunderstandings precipitated this edit which seems to be unjustified. The removed text can of course be sourced directly to EB2011, as the source excerpt should make clear. I have reverted the edit to reflect RS material. un☯mi 06:11, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Misleadingly inserting “Atheism is contrasted ... with agnosticism, which leaves the matter of existence open.” into the lead contradicts the nuanced definition which precedes it, and would give readers a false impression that atheism doesn’t leave the matter open. You’d’ve gone less awry if you’d used the clunky but more accurate wording suggested in that archived discussion you linked to, “It is also distinguished from but not incompatible with agnosticism, the view that the existence of a deity is unknown or unknowable.” ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 10:38, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree, there isn't a single definition of what atheism is and it isn't necessarily incompatible with agnosticism. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Can I also suggest people stop inserting the text, get consensus first per WP:BRD. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:50, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• There was a consensus for the edit at the time, obtained via DR. Please do remember that article text should reflect the weight of RS, are you arguing that EB2011 is not a solid RS in this matter? Also, which RS are you relying on for the conclusion that excluding the EB2011 lead material is appropriate? un☯mi 16:20, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• Previously ... To the best of my knowledge the last DR discussion is at WP:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_16#Atheism - reading through the comments indicates to me that the balance of editors, both long-term of this article as well previously uninvolved agreed that the contrast with agnosticism reflected the sources and improved our article. There is of course also an archive of voluminous and vociferous debate to be had in [1] and [2]. un☯mi 19:01, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

This source discusses the uncertainty over the definitions [3], this source Smith, George H (1979). Atheism: The Case Against God. p. 10-11 used in agnostic atheism which discusses an overlap. And no, there was no consensus at DRN. There has never been consensus for this text. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:07, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Absolutely no consensus for this odd inclusion. The overlap of atheism and agnosticism is well known and citable, so it would be peculiar to have anything in the article that essentially says there is no overlap. I assume this is another one of those situations where the author is referring only to the narrower subset of atheism which does not encompass agnosticism. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

• So, it seems that Encyclopedia Britannica 2011 is not considered an RS by IRWolfie and Scjessy, is that right? Instead the preferred source is the very excerpt that Theodore Drange uses as an exemplar of faulty reasoning:

“ According to this usage, people would be "atheists" even if they answer the question whether it is true that God exists with "no one knows." This is a departure from the most common use of the word "atheist" in ordinary language, which is in itself an important reason to avoid it. Another reason is that infants and fetuses have no belief in God, yet it would be perverse to say that they are all atheists. ”

un☯mi 23:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Just as a comment about clarity, and not the substance of it, I feel as though "Atheism is regarded as compatible with agnosticism, with which it is generally contrasted" just sounds confusing. The first half of the sentence sounds like atheism and agnosticism are similar, whereas the second half of the sentence sounds like they are different. Is there a clearer way to word it? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:12, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

That is however a fair comment - how about reverting to the previous wording for that section in entirety? un☯mi 23:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

The previous version would appear to be not having it in the article at all. I don't see a problem with that. What are we trying to solve with this addition? Is the article not already sufficiently clear on the various definitions of atheism? It would be helpful if the edit warring stopped in the interim; either remove it entirely or leave it as it is. The most recent addition claims that agnosticism is incompatible, except "it has been argued" to be compatible, which is not consistent with our sources or our already-stated definitions.   — Jess· Δ♥ 07:37, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

• not consistent with our sources - could you clarify just which sources you are referring to?
• our already-stated definitions - as you are referring exactly to the definition section this statement seems to stem from a misconception, could you clarify just what you are referring to?
• un☯mi 07:55, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Within the first 3 sentences, we have set up 3 different definitions for atheism. Two of those three are clearly compatible with agnosticism. To say "at times it has been argued that [agnosticism is compatible with atheism]" is to entirely disregard those 2 definitions. This appears to be what you'd like to do anyway, given your postings here and at the threads you linked at DRN. However, we have strong sourcing to indicate that atheism is more than simply belief in the nonexistence of the "Judeo-Christian God", as you proposed, and we cannot so strongly prefer one source over the plethora of others in such a way. I do not see that you have consensus for the addition at this time, so it would seem to make sense for you to present new sources, or make a new proposal, in order to sway consensus, or let the issue drop. I'm happy to read new sources if you'd like to present them.   — Jess· Δ♥ 08:13, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Within the first 3 sentences Wait, are you referring to the text in the lead? The text in the lead can only be there by virtue of being supported by what is in the body of the article. The text that you reinstated with this edit states "Atheism is regarded as compatible with agnosticism " - could you please tell me which sources that you find nullify EB2011 to that extent? The sources there are:

1. "In common understanding, agnosticism is contrasted with atheism. In the popular sense an agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves that God exists, while an atheist disbelieves that God exists. However, this common contrast of agnosticism with atheism will hold only if one assumes that atheism means positive atheism. In the popular sense, agnosticism is compatible with negative atheism. Since negative atheism by definition simply means not holding any concept of God, it is compatible with neither believing nor disbelieving in God." - (emphasis mine) Not only does the text itself state the general state of affairs, but is also in fact seeking to argue against current consensus on the basis of a conception that is peculiar to a minority of scholars and a certain class of Theist polemicists, as EB2011 is a testament to and as Martin himself concedes.

2. "On our definition, an 'atheist' is a person who rejects belief in God, regardless of whether or not his reason for the rejection is the claim that 'God exists' expresses a false proposition. People frequently adopt an attitude of rejection toward a position for reasons other than that it is a false proposition. It is common among contemporary philosophers, and indeed it was not uncommon in earlier centuries, to reject positions on the ground that they are meaningless. Sometimes, too, a theory is rejected on such grounds as that it is sterile or redundant or capricious, and there are many other considerations which in certain contexts are generally agreed to constitute good grounds for rejecting an assertion." - Could you please indicate if you think that this text supports "Atheism is regarded as compatible with agnosticism " ?

3. ^ Besant, Annie (1884). "Why Should Atheists Be Persecuted?". The Atheistic Platform. London: Freethought Publishing. pp. 185-186. "The Atheist waits for proof of God. Till that proof comes he remains, as his name implies, without God. His mind is open to every new truth, after it has passed the warder Reason at the gate." - Seriously? As a source for explicitly the history of thought fine, but as a counter to EB2011? I really don't think so.

4. ^ Holyoake, George Jacob (1842). "Mr. Mackintosh's New God". The Oracle of Reason, Or, Philosophy Vindicated 1 (23): 186. "On the contrary, I, as an Atheist, simply profess that I do not see sufficient reason to believe that there is a god. I do not pretend to know that there is no god. The whole question of god's existence, belief or disbelief, a question of probability or of improbability, not knowledge." - again, a text from 1842 is not really something that wikipedia editors are expected to be presenting against Encyclopedia Britannica 2011, with good reason.

Please do see WP:WEIGHT and consider if you that is adequately adhered to for the text in question. un☯mi 09:22, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I think Unomi you are going about things the wrong way. If you want a quotation from the source text you can add a {{request quotation}} tag next to the relevant citation. But I think Unomi has a point, and I think his addition adds some degree of nuance and clarity to the passage (revert diff). His point seems to be that stating agnosticism to be "compatible" with atheism is an overstatement of some kind. This appears to depend on what we mean when we say "compatible." His language: "Atheism is generally contrasted with agnosticism, though at times it has been argued that they are compatible" seems more accurate than just stating obtusely that "atheism is regarded as compatible with agnosticism, with which it is generally contrasted." In fact the latter sounds rather convoluted and poorly worded. -Stevertigo (t | c) 09:36, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

To me, Unomi's "at times" clause seems backward. Atheism was ever compatible with agnosticism; at times opponents pushing an agenda attempt to argue that it isn't, despite the fact that most atheists are agnostics. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 12:09, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Can you explain how you square Atheism was ever compatible with agnosticism with EB2011? Or opponents pushing an agenda attempt to argue that it isn't when sources indicate that it was Theist polemicists that wanted to spin them as compatible? un☯mi 12:26, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Are we to consider EB2011 as the One True Source™ now? We don't need to reconcile one source with another, but rather simply reflect what the preponderance of reliable sources say without resorting to any kind of synthesis. It's clear that agnosticism and atheism overlap (see agnostic atheism), so the article should reflect that. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:42, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

No, but it would be nice if you would start considering it, period. Please stop saying 'preponderance' and other absurdities - especially when the next thing you do is point to an article that has 4 sources, 2 from before 1904, 1 which doesn't mention agnosticism at all and the last which is the exact text that Theodore Drange said of: "This is a departure from the most common use of the word "atheist" in ordinary language, which is in itself an important reason to avoid it.". Do you have any idea how delusional you appear to people who aren't wrapped up in your brand of magical thinking? Swap out fossil specimens with sources and I could swear I was dealing with a creationist. Name concrete sources or gtfo. un☯mi 13:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Try and be civil thanks. [4] explicitly deals with the ambiguities and specifically says I would suggest that if Philo estimates the various plausibilities to be such that on the evidence before him the probability of theism comes out near to one he should describe himself as a theist and if it comes out near zero he should call himself an atheist, and if it comes out somewhere in the middle he should call himself an agnostic. There are no strict rules about this classification because the borderlines are vague. You appear to be trying to explicitly state a particular viewpoint on an issue that is inherently vague. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:40, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

It may well be that JJC Smart considers the borderlines vague, but I am not really sure why you bring this source up at all since it states fairly clearly: ‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. and Perhaps such a logical positivist(the agnostic) should be classified as neither a theist nor an atheist, but her view would be just as objectionable to a theist. - the borderlines he is referring to seems to be in relation to whether Philo might hold a given probability to be 0.24 or 0.26 - he does not seem to argue that they are not discrete states. In my personal and irrelevant opinion I would say that he is too busy focusing on utilitarianism to be of much use. un☯mi 14:25, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

EB2011 has a misleading, poorly written lead (which Concise's condensed version worsens to the point of besmirching Britannica’s reliability). However, its later section on Kai’s “comprehensive definition of atheism” corrects misconceptions its lead promotes. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 14:48, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I shall be withdrawing from this discussion after Unomi's disgraceful "GTFO" comment above. I can be recalled if Unomi posts a grovelling apology on my talk page. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:48, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Removed text

Note that the removed text here [5] was sourced and is relevant to the history of atheism. The start of the antiquity section sums things up: Western atheism has its roots in pre-Socratic Greek philosophy, but did not emerge as a distinct world-view until the late Enlightenment, I think it is clear then that this section is not implying Socrates etc were atheists (as well as text saying so: Although he disputed the accusation that he was a "complete atheist") but that they influenced western atheism. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:53, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't see that you had started a section here so I outlined my concerns in the section below. Could you point me to the source that states that Socrates et al influenced western atheism? My concerns here are two-fold.

1) we could equally well say that Plato, the Academy, Aristotle and pretty much any Greek philosopher you care to name 'influenced western atheism' if we mean just that they provided philosophical resources on which later atheists were to draw. At no point does the current text indicate in what way Socrates was supposed to have been influential. The mere fact that a non-atheist was accused of atheism does not seem sufficient to justify their prominent inclusion in a history of atheism and it is also worth noting that the dispute over him being a 'complete atheist' is not directly related to the charges brought against him but, rather, the fact that he manages to bait Meletus into saying something stupid in the Apology. The actual charge against him was not that of atheism as it is understood in this article.

2) The text is currently phrased in such a way as to leave unclear the most important point re: atheism, which is that Socrates and the Epicureans explicitly believed in god. The phrasing around Epicurus is particularly problematic: "[Epicurus] did not rule out the existence of gods, he believed that if they did exist ...". This just isn't right. He didn't believe that if they existed then certain things followed; he believed that they did exist and certain things followed from this. To describe someone who explicitly holds that the gods exist as 'not ruling out the existence of gods' seems highly misleading. The Pope also does not rule out the existence of god but the equivocal formulation makes it sound as if there is some question over the matter when there is not (actually, there may be some interesting things to say about Epicurus and his presentation by Cicero in De Natura Deorum but I'll leave that aside until the current stuff is sorted out).

Basically, what are the criteria for inclusion in this section? At the moment it looks like it is just a grab-bag of names and doctrines that may be indirectly associated with some aspect of thought that has been adopted by modern atheist thinking. I would think that the place for such associations would be in the discussion of the later atheists who adapt said doctrines to actual atheist positions. BothHandsBlack (talk) 11:41, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the broader 'History of Atheism' article is much better re: classical antiquity. It deals far more succinctly with Socrates and locates him more clearly in relation to the relevant issues, so I would suggest we adopt this text instead of the present, far more problematic one: "Historically, any person who did not believe in any deity supported by the state was fair game to accusations of atheism, a capital crime. For political reasons, Socrates in Athens (399 BCE) was accused of being 'atheos' ("refusing to acknowledge the gods recognized by the state"). Despite the charges, he claimed inspiration from a divine voice (Daimon)." It might also be worth mentioning that he claimed he received his philosophical mission from the Delphic oracle of Apollo.

The section here on Epicureanism is also far more appropriate, so I would suggest we adopt this as well: "Also important in the history of atheism was Epicurus (c. 300 BCE). Drawing on the ideas of Democritus and the Atomists, he espoused a materialistic philosophy where the universe was governed by the laws of chance without the need for divine intervention. Although he stated that deities existed, he believed that they were uninterested in human existence. The aim of the Epicureans was to attain peace of mind by exposing fear of divine wrath as irrational. One of the most eloquent expressions of Epicurean thought is Lucretius' On the Nature of Things (first century BCE). The Epicureans also denied the existence of an afterlife.[22] Epicureans were not persecuted, but their teachings were controversial." This makes it clear exactly how Epicureanism was significant to the history of atheism without the dubious language being used to avoid simply stating that he believed in gods.

BothHandsBlack (talk) 12:02, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

It is difficult to argue against, and I wont. Agree. un☯mi 12:13, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure that will be fodder for the sockpuppet conspiracy theorists over in the IP topic area :-) BothHandsBlack (talk) 12:20, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Funnily enough "You can't defend the indefensible" is what drives me in both topics, can't say I have the time or stomach for IP at the moment though. un☯mi 12:29, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Erm, the suggestion is completely absent of any sources. The sourcing does place importance on Epicurus, for example the wording is very faithful to the source [6]. Also note rather than pulling a large amount of content from a featured article it is better to give some time to fix the sourcing. Add verification failed to sources which you think don't verify the text. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:36, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

The sourcing can be fixed easily enough if we can agree on a text. The problem may be that you are treating a BBC website as an RS for issues of classical philosophy where we should be turning to scholarly sources. I'm happy to provide the scholarly stuff but whether or not the current text matches what the BBC says or not, it does not match up with either the primary sources or scholarly discussions.BothHandsBlack (talk) 12:48, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

From the chapter on Theology (by Jaap Mansfeld) in the Cambridge History of Hellenistic Philosophy (1999): "In the Epicurean system the gods play a dual role. they are important in the context of ethics, their blessedness and immortality in fact being the paradigm of what may be attained by mortal men, whereas their role in the context of Epicurean natural philosophy is entirely different from that attributed to them by other philosophers. Epicurus' primary aim is to establish that thhe gods cannot, consistently with their blessed state, be in any way involved in what happens in nature, let alone in what happens to humans." (p. 463) Note that the equivocation over the existence of the gods in the BBC source is not in any way replicated here and, in my experience, this is pretty much standard across the scholarship. There is an interesting argument to be had about whether the Epicurean theology was taken seriously by the Epicureans, a point jokingly made by Cotta, Cicero's Academic spokesman in De Natura Deorum, but bar that all the primary evidence is pretty consistent. The gods do exist, they just play no role in the ordering of the world. BothHandsBlack (talk) 12:55, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

The issue with relying on an editors experience with the topic is the WP:OR. The current text can be consistent with the above source by changing it from While Epicureanism did not rule out the existence of gods, he believed that if they did exist, they were unconcerned with humanity to Epicurus believed that if the Gods did exist, they were uninvolved with humanity or nature. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:07, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not planning on engaging in any OR (too much work!), I'm just trying to tell you what the RSs say. The version you give here may be consistent with the BBC website but it is not consistent with the scholarship. Inserting 'if' when there is no 'if' about it is simply inaccurate. Here's a secondary source that is pretty much standard in the subject area - the commentary from Long and Sedley's The Hellenistic Philosophers, vol. 1 (p. 147) : "We now come to a major stumbling block. If the above interpretation of Epicurean gods as our own instinctive thought-constructs is correct [this is a rather controversial view, by the way], was Epicurus not an atheist? That inference was indeed frequently drawn by his critics, but both Epicurus himself and his followers vehemently denied it, and in source H Epicurus is reported to have been pointedly rude about three of his predecessors standardly listed as 'atheists'. Moreover, while some later Epicureans adhered to the interpretation advanced above ..., many others represented his gods as real living beings. Most modern scholars have accepted this latter interpretation as correct." Admittedly this goes back to 1985 but things don't move terribly quickly in this field and the book is still a standard text, and the report of the scholarly consensus is still accurate. Do you have an RS that backs up the equivocations in the BBC source? BothHandsBlack (talk) 13:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

That is the opposite way that things should be done, we get the sourcing first then the text. If we agree on the text beforehand it will be pure OR and then backup up with cherry picked sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not currently supported by a reliable source in any case. What I mean by finding the sources is that I work in this area professionally and can find the sources to support all elements of the text I have given pretty quickly because it is a fair representation of current views on the subject (in a way that the BBC source is not - contrast it to Mansfeld quoted below). What I want to know is whether there are elements here that you don't think need to be included or whether you think that there are elements missing or some nuance that needs to be emphasised. If I know that then I can find everything in one go rather than wasting time sourcing stuff that doesn't need to be there. BothHandsBlack (talk) 13:16, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I am fine with changing it to Epicurus believed that the Gods did exist but that they were uninvolved with humanity or nature. if that is what you are suggesting? The other pieces on Epicurus can be discussed separately when the sources are present.IRWolfie- (talk) 13:46, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion for the Epicurus paragraph is as follows:

Also important in the history of atheism was Epicurus (c. 300 BCE). Drawing on the ideas of Democritus and the Atomists, he espoused a materialistic philosophy where the universe was governed by the laws of chance without the need for divine intervention. Although he stated that deities existed, he believed that they were uninterested in human existence. The aim of the Epicureans was to attain peace of mind and one important way of doing this was by exposing fear of divine wrath as irrational. The Epicureans also denied the existence of an afterlife and the need to fear divine punishment after death.

I've only put in one source as this material is all covered in the Stanford encyclopedia article. Does that work for you? BothHandsBlack (talk) 14:08, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:13, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

How about this for Socrates? "Socrates (c. 471–399 BCE) was associated in the Athenian public mind with the trends in pre-Socratic philosophy towards naturalistic inquiry and the rejection of divine explanations for phenomena. Although such an interpretation misrepresents his thought he was portrayed in such a way in Aristophanes’ comic play Clouds and was later to be tried and executed for impiety and corrupting the young. At his trial Socrates is reported as vehemently denying that he was an atheist and contemporary scholarship provides little reason to doubt this claim." (Jan Bremmer 2007, ‘Atheism in Antiquity’, Cambridge Companion to Atheism, p. 14-19)BothHandsBlack (talk) 14:36, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Also on Socrates, I don't see how you can say that Socrates is irrelevant. the section is discussing the history of atheism in particular with respect to ancient greece, the well sourced sentencing to death of a highly notable historical figure accused of atheism is very relevant to the history. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:51, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

The thing is the formal charges against him weren't of atheism as we understand it now but of impiety (including the introduction of new gods) and corrupting the youth. At one point (Apology 26c if memory serves) Socrates tricks his accuser Meletus into saying that Socrates doesn't believe in any gods but this is just to show that Meletus is not a serious disputant as he has charged Socrates with introducing new gods and is thus shown to be inconsistent with himself in the manner typical of discussions in Plato's 'early' Socratic dialogues. That particular claim is never actually a formal charge against Socrates and is not something he is found guilty of; it is just an inconsistent mistake that Meletus makes when being cross-examined by Socrates. BothHandsBlack (talk) 12:59, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Classical Antiquity section

Some problems with the classical antiquity section:

1. Socrates - Why include someone who did not consider himself to be an atheist, is not held to be an atheist by modern scholars, was not held to be an atheist by his contemporaries and was not held to be an atheist (in the sense outlined in the lead) even by his accusers, in a section on the history of atheism? The history intro states: "ideas that would be recognized today as atheistic" appear in classical antiquity but what are these in relation to Socrates? What is the significance of this material for the article?

2. The statement that Protagoras 'probably had atheistic views' is not supported by a source. What are the grounds for this claim?

3. The description of Epicurus and Lucretius as 'not ruling out the possibility' that there are gods is inaccurate. They both state explicitly that there are gods so why are they included in a section on the history of atheism? BothHandsBlack (talk) 11:12, 13 June 2012 (UTC)