Talk:Anime

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The definition of anime as "Japanese animation": what is anime again?

I'm trying to head off a revert war at Miss Dynamite. What is the WP stance on non-Japanese productions that self-identify as anime? The standard Western definition of anime has been, from the late 1970s until recently, strictly "Japanese animation". Similarly, manga is strictly "Japanese comics". Of course these distinctions do not exist in Japan where the words simply mean "animation" and "comics" respectively.

Starting in the late 1990s, more and more works outside Japan are self-identifying as anime and manga due to being inspired by the styles prevalent within those media (IMHO to call anime and manga "genres" is as spurious as calling Hollywood and Bollywood "genres" of film). While there are convenient names for Korean and Chinese comics (manhwa and manhua respectively), American manga-inspired works (amerimanga) (which I heartily encourage the use of), and even American anime-inspired animation (amerime), not all these terms are widely used. Do we bend the definition of anime to include works with little to no Japanese involvement in the production like Totally Spies! or Samurai Jack?

I disagree with some of the self-identification here, and I don't think self-identification is the be-all, end-all of classification. It would seem to me a lot like remaking Manon des Sources in the California countryside without a single French cast or crewmember, and insisting it's still a French film ... or for that matter, calling Kimba the White Lion a Disney film because it's inspired by Disney and has talking animals in it. But if WP consensus would prefer to classify amerime and amerimanga as subsets of anime and manga, then consensus wins.

Please, discuss!

No one outside a small set of very deluded people in the US considers any of the apery going on over there as manga. American comics have a long and worthy history, the sooner these people forget about trying to be Japanese and just go back to being creative and original, the better it'll be for 'em. --zippedmartin 20:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree with some of that sentiment, even though my personal opinions on the American comic industry probably have very little to do with WP naming taxonomy! ^_^ If people are inspired by manga, who's to prevent them from making comics, right? That I think demonstrates the need for terms like amerimanga (I like the ANN descriptor "world manga"). Even the Philippines has a perfectly valid term for native comics (komiks) ... say, there's a missing WP article right there!

At the same time, there's plenty of apery going on in mainstream Western comics ... much more of that oeuvre is DC/Marvel superhero-of-the-month than it is Elfquest or Preacher or Transmetropolitan. (Or, sum up as: Rob Liefeld is still employed.) So I think pointing the blame squarely at amerimanga creators for the dearth of creativity in the American comic industry may be a bit oversimplified. I think the entire reason much of the work being passed off as "manga" is self-labeled that way is simply because manga sells. -- Miwa 21:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

well, manga is actually simply something that came from the japanese not having money to make actual movies, and the art style came from looking at mickey mouse and suc from dizney, along with some older cultural influences, but mangaitself was origionally sorta like showing motion and such in still frames, anime on the other hand has simmilar history, and anime also has a history in japan of being a way of geting around the censors, such things like Hentai, while not for everyone , came from attempts at cultural freedom of expression, and defiance of censors. while it is true that anime comes form japan nad the orient, I still dont see the problem with some americans trying to get in on a good thing, except that they cant keep kidding themselves, they can call a series like avatar : the last airbender anime all they want, but its anime STYLE, nothing that isnt from japan, or at least the orient, can be alled anime without lying through ones , possibly misinformed teeth. well, thats all i have to say on the subject for the moment.Karaveks voice 20:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed the debate going on in the Miss Dynamite article as well as here, and in the hopes of providing some direction, let me point out a few things. In Wikipedia, we are concerned entirely with what is, never with what should be. This is the essence of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Therefore, if there is verifiable evidence that indeed non-Japanese publishers have successfully co-opted terms like "manga" and "anime" to describe their own products, then we cannot forbid such uses here. How we may feel about the issue is utterly without relevance. Personally, I think manga and anime are still largely used to describe Japanese creations, and therefore it's better to use terms like "manga-inspired", but I doubt that will be true for much longer. I've noticed Megatokyo is often shelved in the Manga sections of bookstores these days, and whether we like it or not, we must pay attention to that public perception. –Abe Dashiell ^(t/c) 14:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, a random policy linker. As I said, this is limited to the US. Also, you might want to check a large, modern, dictionary - I'd be suprised if they didn't give a definition. That US firms want to redefine various terms for their convenience is not in doubt, but they've not managed yet. --zippedmartin 14:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

random? no. anyway, why not just say its japanese style, kinda like the iferiour US brands of electronics are modeled after japenese electronics...Karaveks voice 15:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

What about things that fans identify as manga or anime, or manga or anime styled? For example, many people consider Stan Sakai's comic Usagi Yojimbo to be manga, yet Sakai himself doesn't. Also, about the whole "death of creativity in American comics", well, that's only true if you glance at the racks for five seconds and consider everything in the superhero genre to be automatically "uncreative". But I digress. People can hate on Teen Titans the cartoon all they want, but the fact remains that, for better or for worse, anime and manga have made their mark on other cultures, and I believe this should be mentioned here. I guess my point is, this whole discussion subject seems to me like yet another attempt, thinly veiled or not, to somehow cite the "superiority" of anime and manga and set them at odds with their non-Japanese equivalents. Comics and cartoons are comics and cartoons whether they come from Japan or not. MasterGrazzt 08:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I can say this. In the Japanese language, "anime" refers to all works animated. "Manga" refers to all works comics. So it would be appropriate to call everything "anime" and everything "manga" in a loanword way of using words. At the same time, I personally find that non-Japanese works that self-identify as "anime" tend to be the least worthy of being called "anime," while there are less pretentious works that intentionally or unintentionally fit better into the anime "style." Now, think about what makes a movie a Hollywood movie. A movie is Hollywood when it's financed by a Hollywood company. Likewise, if you want to make a distinction between anime and animation, an objective rule of thumb can be to decide by whether a particular title has Japanese financing. This makes sense, as I wouldn't call American animated shows that were farmed out to Japan "anime" in the discriminating US-English way, and that goes back to these shows being financed with American money. Likewise, the Disney shows that were made at the Disney Japan studio would not be "anime," even though a lot of famous Japanese animators worked there. To wit, what would you call the animated segment in Kill Bill or the animated work that is The Animatrix?--Outis 12:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as American-made shows using anime style (Totally Spies! and Samurai Jack as mentioned above), I prefer the term "americanime". 69.158.141.33 08:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I want to Move the Cowboy Bebop image

I want to move the Cowboy Bebop image further down the article, into the Characteristics section above or below the Dragon Ball Z picture as an example of space opera, drama and action. In its place can go the Atomic/Astro Boy or another suitable picture. The Cowboy Bebop picture along with the Anime and Manga portal link creates a lot of whitespace at the head of the article on quite a few different monitor resolutions. I and several other editors have tried formatting the page around the picture but after many different revisions I believe it is the picture itself that is the problem. I know that this is the sort of change that you propose first and change later to prevent arguements so comments and objections please! --Squilibob 10:55, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Support: I too prefer that the Cowboy Bebop image be moved to a more suitable location and have Astro Boy be bumped up. Use the "First" Anime that garnered Mainstream Appeal and is the definitive icon of Anime.--293.xx.xxx.xx 06:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I also support this proposal. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 06:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, do it. DenisMoskowitz 01:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I think this was what, the second time i've seen Cowboy Bebop put in places where it was never meant to be? See my revision on Witch Hunter Robin for an example of using Cowboy Bebop wrong. Is it just me, or are there possibly more cases where the use of Cowboy Bebop references might be misused? --293.xx.xxx.xx 07:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Is it or is it not an anime, thati s the question...

Have anyone saw the new television show called Boondocks, which is based on the popular comic strip? People are drawn with big and colorfull eyes, and their texture is also alike the all the animes and mangas I saw/read. So is it an anime or is it not? Kniaz Monday, April 10 17:26 pm

It's about as anime as The Simpsons. Ie, some koreans probably did the colouring-in. --zippedmartin 21:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

You should probably check the credits before saying such a thing. I'm not jumping on your butt, but that could be viewed as stereotyping. Just sayin' -- NatsukiGirl\^talk 18:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You kidding? The official sites don't even credit animators, let alone say how the rendering's done, the kids don't care. As for 'stereotyping', the US animation industry has long outsourced work to the far east (not that there's much of an industry left these days beyond 3dcg). Japan is doing much the same now. --zippedmartin 21:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Critisim of anime: Use of weasel words

I've tagged this section because it makes an excessive use of weasel words, such as "some people have", "some have found", "many people will cite", and "Some [animators] have". Attributing opinions to anonymous sources should be avoided and linking to just one source is not going to offset the anonymous nature of the attributed opinion. --TheFarix (Talk) 21:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Should the whole section be deleted since it does seem to be bias and makes unsubstantiated claims? --205.188.116.68 00:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. DenisMoskowitz 15:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Still a question...

My question was simply put "is or is not the new television show "Boondocs", based on popular, partly racist and stereotypical comic strip an anime? Note that it is drawn in anime style." So, please tell me if IT IS/YES or IT IS NOT/NO and then give the reasons. No "near to", "close to", "perhapes it is", "most likely", etc. If you just wish to give me the reasons, but not sure go on my userpage. Kniaz 18:19, 12 April 2006

No. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 22:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The answer is entirely subjective. However you might be interested in this quote from creator Aaron McGruder:

"I've always been a big anime fan, and I've always wanted the Boondocks to look like a show that was made in Japan," McGruder said. "And the reason why is that anime is really just Japanese animation directors that are mimicking American cinema." [1] --Dforest 12:57, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

In our context here on wikipedia I believe that if it is widely accepted, then it is classed as an anime. Does the series feature in anime magazines? Can it be bought from online anime stores? Does it appear in anime sections of retail stores? Is it listed in several popular online anime encyclopedias? These are all questions that can answered "yes" for shows we call anime. --Squilibob 01:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all: Thank you for the straight answer Nihonjoe, but you could have given more resons; dforest, have you ever heard of persuasive essay, it's when you persuade the reader not giving him the chance to see two points, but only one, the one you want the reader to see; um...squilibob, the question was straight, so please answer straight: YSE or NO. ****, why can't you people responde with a straight answer, why!? kniaz

Sorry. (^_^) No, Boondocks is not an anime or manga series. The author may say he was inspired by anime and/or manga, but just being inspired doesn't make it so. Boondocks is a political commentary comic (and maybe cartoon now?) that leans somewhat to the left (based on what I read once a week in the local newspaper before they dropped it). It is not anime. It is not manga. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 00:09, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and here's the link for anyone interested in more info about this comic: The Boondocks. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 00:11, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. P.S. Boondocks is a show which is airing on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim. kniaz April 23, 2006