Talk:Energy Catalyzer

wired.uk

Hi there, I know very little about the editing protocols of Wikipedia but would like to propose the Website Wired.co.uk as a source. They have posted a number of articles about this subject and have found evidence that the Pentagon (more specifically DARPA) are interested in the work of Mr Rossi. If Wired.co.uk is considered a legitimate source then surely this warrants inclusion in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.97.31.163 (talk) 11:15, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

It's already referenced in the demonstrations section- Energy_Catalyzer#cite_note-47

primary sources making exceptional claims

In reference to this edit.

Rossi claims that he is certifying his machine, but he doesn't say which certificate he is getting, and he doesn't say who certifies it:

"We have to get the certification from an official certifier for sale in the U.S. We are under a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with the certifier and all I can say is the U.S. certifier works for one of the most well-known worldwide certification companies and I can not say whom they are because we will be only be able to explain their name after the certification has been reached. This is based off of the contract that we have with them."[1]

And this coming from an interview, not published in an reliable source, and not cross-checked against anything. Please see WP:SPS and WP:ABOUTSELF (they are on the same page). --Enric Naval (talk) 10:59, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Rossi says this. He says lots of things. If you want to read what Rossi says, there are plenty of websites that tell you. Wikipedia isn't one of them, and for very good reasons. We aren't here to publish vacuous puffery - particularly when this week's vacuous puffery contradicts last week's, which contradicted the week before... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:20, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

E-Cat official logo: is it possible to insert it into the article?

Small size:
http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/thumbs/R_123480759_1.jpg

Large size:
http://www.cobraf.com/showimage.php?image=/forum/immagini/R_123480759_1.jpg

This is the official logo of the E-Cat.

Is it possible to insert it into the article?

Thanks.

--79.6.2.200 (talk) 05:36, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

No. There is nothing saying this is the official logo Bhny (talk) 09:42, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Bhny. I would have doubts if this showed up on one of Andrea Rossi's website, but in this case it is something completely out of the blue and seems like fan art. Show some reliable source to show it is an actual logo, and hopefully something formatted a little bit better instead of a case logo as a mock up. --Robert Horning (talk) 20:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Delete this article

In wikipedia you can find article like Human defecation postures or Toilet paper orientation, but it doesn't mean that now wikipedia can be transformed into the trash of the web. This article is just a free advertisement to a claim done by only one person and independent source of the device cannot be found. Unless there will be the definite disclosure of the hoax or of the success of the machine (i.e. very likely never), this article must be deleted. Wikipedia is not the place for the pathological science, accordingly to the definition of Bardi. --TheNextFuture (talk) 10:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

We have article about notable topics, even pathological science. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:03, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

And the last deletion debate resulted in keeping the article. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The last deletion debate was some months ago if I don't mistake. There are a lot of changes since then. Even better, there aren't changes related to the device, but meanwhile a lot of promises of Rossi are failed. Let us analyze just only the first sentence of the article:

The Energy Catalyzer (also called E-Cat) is a purported cold fusion or Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) heat source[1][2] built by inventor Andrea Rossi,[3][4] with support from physicist Sergio Focardi.[5]

• "is a purported cold fusion" purported by whom? Sources? The last year the Higgs mechanism was a purported theory for the electroweak interactions too, but the situation is clearly different from the E-Cat. There are no independent sources to this claim. Also considering only the Rossi's declarations, they are often in contrast between each others. At the moment, the relation between E-Cat and cold fusion is still unclear (see also below).
• "Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR)": again, sources to the reactions involved? Recently it seems that there aren't nuclear reaction at all, Rossi declared that "no nuclear reactions occur inside the device."
• "heat source": accordingly for example to Krivit and Bardi, the presence of an heat source remains impossible to demonstrate, After having been unable to show that his device produces energy and here.
• "with the support from physicist Sergio Focardi". The source to this sentence is just the list of the professors of the Bologna university (the same as support that I have won the Nobel prize with the list of inmate of my apartment). The problem here is that Focardi doesn't know anything about the inside of the device, as he said clearly the last year. The Italian patent reports as only inventor "Andrea Rossi", without any mention to Focardi.

This is just only the first sentence. In this way, I can ensure to you that I am able to write an article referred to alien origin of Barack Obama. --TheNextFuture (talk) 14:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to start an AfD. Personally, I think that the complete lack of any further coverage in mainstream sources provides ample grounds to support a (minimalist) merger with the Andrea Rossi article, as was proposed back in April - see Talk:Energy Catalyzer/Archive 12#proposed merger. Given that even fringe sources are no longer reporting much on the E-cat as described in the article, but are instead pumping out their usual credulous waffle about another alleged 'high temperature' device about which nobody but Rossi seems to know anything, the E-cat itself (i.e. the one all the 'demonstrations' were about, with the supposed 'patents') seems to be very much a dead cat, and now nothing remains but a nasty smell. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the need for another AfD or merge request. Whether dead or not, the sources and facts that led to the article are still presumably present. Whilst presence of other articles isn't (necessarily) a justification for the presence of an article in question, there are plenty of others in Wikipedia that you would be better off targeting, if you want to do something useful. Yet another AfD for this seems a waste of effort on behalf of the commentators and the poor old admin who eventually closes it. Tmccc (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

If there's another deletion discussion I will !vote to keep. The topic will be forever notable because it once was. Many reliable sources commented on it. Binksternet (talk) 19:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I still don't understand of what sources or facts you are talking about. Already the first sentence is an unsupported misleading. This is obvious, the first sentence usually contains the definition of the topic of the article, like "The domestic cat (Felis catus or Felis silvestris catus) is a small, usually furry, domesticated, carnivorous mammal." But how can you define a black box of the miracles (in the scientific meaning)? If then you cannot even have a clear definition of the E-Cat with independent source, how can you create and then keep an article about it? I would say that everything is related only to Rossi, Rossi claims once that his device produces radiations as signature of the nuclear reaction, once that it does not, and finally that there are no nuclear radiations at all. Rossi claims that there will be a power station in Greece in October 2011, while in August there were still problems with the contracts and nothing was built. The same Rossi says than that he has a contract with a unknown company and with the army of a unknown state. And so on. Maybe are those the facts that you are referring to? I agree with AndyTheGrump, at maximum you can merge the essential points with the article of Rossi as useful information for characterizing the person and the media attention to him (and not to the device, "there's no real news", as already written in the page). A lot of other hoaxes are now present on wikipedia just as brief summary related the authors or they are not present at all. My words are just a suggestion for improving wikipedia, then you are free to fill it with unsupported news about unknown black boxes. --TheNextFuture (talk) 20:24, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The truth of Rossi's claims is irrelevant. So long as source's have reported them, and they are correctly referenced in the article. Wikipedia is not about one person's (or should NOT be about one person's) perceived truth, but only about what is verifiable in other independent sources. I'm not entirely sure why you're so interesting in deleting it. It reflects what has been said in the reliable sources people have used. Not liking the subject is no reason to delete it. Tmccc (talk) 21:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree, this article should be deleted. Andrea Rossi already has one page and certainly he does not deserve another. He has not shown any convincing evidence neither for ecat nor his company. On the other hand, there are very serious reasons to believe that he is committing massive fraud. Fraud or not, this has still significant media value, therefore Rossi's own page should be somewhat more detailed on ecat than it is now. But separate page at this scale is just unnecessary and it may have ethical problems if this is just free advertisement of a fraud. --Jouni Valkonen (talk) 23:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Polarising the issue by shouting yay or nay to fraud isn't relevant. As I've said before The Truth isn't relevant to Wikipedia and history isn't erased as time progresses, though we may gain or lose sources as time goes on. If you want to delete, assess whether the sources no longer exist. Tmccc (talk) 06:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that the article should be deleted for the points that I have written before and at the end because the whole article is just an undue weight to a claim of only one person. It is right that "wikipedia is [...] only about what is verifiable in other independent sources", but the E-Cat does not belong to this definition. I stress again E-Cat, the device, not the declarations of Rossi and the media articles about them. Let me clarify one point: I don't think that wikipedia is the temple of truth, so I will never propose the deletion of the article about Telepathy. In this case, at least we have a clear definition of the "phenomenon", it doesn't matter if it is possible or not. At the moment, for the same will of Rossi, the E-Cat is a black box impossible to define as I have demonstrated above. The sources for the definition do not exist and a definition with independent sources is the minimal request for an article. It doesn't matter if it works or not. In general the whole cold fusion is a "border-science", but actually wikipedia has not separate articles for example for the machine of Fleischmann–Pons or of Arata. Those devices are surely controversial, but the media and scientific attention to them was definitely higher than to the E-Cat and moreover they are not a black-box. So for this reason I agree with Jouni Valkonen, this article is just an undue weight to a recent claim of only one person. --TheNextFuture (talk) 09:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The device is notable, if it exists or doesn't exist. Significant reference is made in reliable sources. If you really must continue this conversation, then please raise an AfD and we can discuss it there. Tmccc (talk) 11:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Current conference and independent test report

WP:NOT#FORUM

Presented without comment or endorsement: http://e-catsite.com/2012/09/07/e-cat-conference-commences-in-zurich/ http://www.scribd.com/doc/105322688/Penon4-1 http://www.scribd.com/doc/105326231/Corrections http://www.ustream.tv/channel/z%C3%BCrich-09-2012-live where Rossi is taking questions in English as I write this. 31.170.166.17 (talk) 16:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC) Worthless hype. We base article content on reliable sources, not on Rossi's bullshit. Please do not waste our time posting such irrelevance here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Just to be precise, the report is this one:

• http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123487015_1.pdf

• http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123487027_1.pdf

In my personal opinion it is completely unusable, for the simple fact that it is a primary source.--Insilvis (talk) 10:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I fully agree, it's complete garbage -- the supposed work of one person. The article shouldn't be deleted, but it should highlight how Rossi spurned NASA independent testing and his shady background. That would be a service to the readers. Krivit and Rothwell are in agreement that Rossi and Defkalion are frauds. I'm sorry I upset Andy. Forgive me, Andy, please. 31.170.166.17 (talk) 11:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I did not say it was garbage, I simply wrote that in my opinion it was unusable for Wikipedia.

• Fabio Penon , M.Eng. (Nuclear Engineer, Product Certification Specialist)
• Fulvio Fabiani, M.Eng.
• David Bianchini, M.Sc (Physicist, Radiation Measurements Specialist)

are the people who signed that report. I have enough esteem for the work of physicists and engineers (I mean, physicists and engineers in general) to trust them until proven otherwise.--Insilvis (talk) 11:54, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

This thread is a waste of time. Neither this supposed 'report' nor anything from newenergytimes.com meets WP:RS requirements. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:06, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Oxford University Press has a higher opinion of Krivit than you do. Producing tertiary sources under the supervision of an academic press is a somewhat different experience than doing so as a volunteer. Krivit has a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, but I suppose that's no consolation to those who believe every aspect of the LENR field is just as much of a fraud as Rossi. Good luck with that. 31.170.166.17 (talk) 12:23, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not interested in debating abstract questions regarding the reliability of Krivit. New Energy Times doesn't pass Wikipedia WP:RS requirements for matters concerning Rossi and the E-Cat, which is all that matters here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:46, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Krivit's report on how Rossi refused NASA's offer to test his equipment is based largely on NASA documents, some of which were released voluntarily, and some of which were released in response to FOIA requests. His report on Rossi's previous scams are based on Italian news and government publications. Which of the reliable source criteria for accurate and fact-checked journalism are you suggesting he fails? 31.170.166.17 (talk) 13:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Everyone appears to acknowledge that the sources aren't suitable or reliable for wikipedia, therefore there is nothing to discuss. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)